NighttimeNightmare

I agree that at this point it’s way too late to ask her on a date. I know we aren’t dating but we basically are going on what resembles dates and have emotionally moved beyond that in a natural progression. I feel like months ago I could have asked her on a formal date, and used that to get to know her with intention, but it seems redundant and even elementary now. I mean, we dressed up and went out to dinner last night, talked for hours, night before cooked at her place, talked for hours. I feel that to say “would u like to go on a date with me?” strange. It doesn’t prompt a situation that’s any different than what we are already doing. If anything I think it once again drums up the question of “what are we doing?” Because I can’t find differentiation between what she and I are doing, and what a couple on a date is doing I understand the nuances in what you’re getting at here. There is a natural vibe and progression I have going on with this woman and it’s certainly gotten to the point where I’m naturally feeling like we might be able to hold hands, or kiss. It would need to be at the right time with the right vibe. That has happened a few times now but like I said, I wasn’t 100% certain so I backed off. but I can say she’s changing… like becoming more opened with me as the weeks go on. The other night I was laying on the bed and she was showing me her winter wardrobe and asking what I thought of certain outfits on her. Told her which colors I really liked on her. A week or two ago when I was yapping to her about something she sat there smiling at me and had a certain look, I’d never seen her look at me that way before. It’s moments like those where I do feel I could have done it. But it’s also in those moments she’ll start making comments about our age gap. I really do think she sometimes gets into wanting more with me and then pulls back. I think it’s almost time for me to seize one of the moments and get this all over with.

Oh. Nope. I stop myself from touching her because idk what she’s ok with. The other evening did seem like we were deliberately sort of touching one another’s hand while sharing a cocktail. But once again, I couldn’t know “for sure” so I didn’t make a move to actually try to hold her hand. I know some on this forum have expressed my being over logical is not helpful, but I mean, that’s how my mind worked that night. The closest we got to a kiss was when she blew me one the other night at her friends dinner

I really don’t feel like I blame her. I’m well aware these are all my own struggles that she has very little to do with, if at all. I think people are more or less mirrors of ourselves in many ways. Am I frustrated, sure. Do I wish she would be the one to make a move if she’s interested. Yea. But I don’t blame her for my own predicament and I don’t think the burden is on her. True. I see the difference/contrast there

I don’t think so, like what? I mean she’s rubbed on my arm before, the way she did that seemed sensual. But nothing beyond that and how she touches my inner thigh to communicate with me when we sit next to one another in public, but that isn’t sensual. I mean if we had some sort of “heavy petting” at some point I wouldn’t be wondering if she was into me. So there’s been nothing major, just little things here and there

We don’t. And no I can’t tolerate the limbo much longer. That’s what I’m realizing that the very fact I was prompted to post here means something is wrong, for me, that i need to get addressed, with her. im so tired of being this close but not being allowed to express it. And the fact she actually got snarky with me the other day for not being there emotionally, I felt unfair because idk *** she wants from me. and last night this guy kept following her around for nearly an hour. And I thought she was enjoying the conversation until she told me that she kept trying to get my attention to get him away from her. Idk what that’s about, I didn’t understand why she didn’t tell him more directly that she was done talking. (I’m going to actually ask her for clarification of this cos I found it odd), but the reason I even bring this up was cause I did end it about 6x and he kept circling back and re-engaging, so once again, it’s not like I could put my arm around her waist and say we’re together. Cos we’re not. So I stand there watching this interaction knowing she can chat up and date whoever she wants. But yet I’m also supposed to stop that interaction? I don’t get it. I guess I should also clarify that the man was a worker at a place I make a lot of money off of, so maybe she didn’t want to be rude. But I’m going to ask her. And batya please don’t jump in with your suspicions that she’s some “mega sexual flirt” who feeds off of this. I understand you think this but it’s not helpful Exactly. That’s why I think it’s beneficial for us both that we have a discussion about what this really is between us. I don’t want either of us to get hurt when new people come into the picture

Ya that doesn’t mean that I “think that people who are married were in general desperate to find a partner otherwise they would be single” That’s a really weird leap. I was making two separate comments about myself and how I operate in direct relation to some of her own world views

Well, you got me there. That’s an accurate observation but also true that I’m opened to seriously meeting someone [else] if we cross paths

What? Where did i say that?

I don’t think it’s one-sided or that I’m being cheated out of anything. I am making the decision to engage with her because I enjoy her company. That’s my choice that I can stop at any time Because, esp now, it’s at a point where I think we need to define it. I don’t need it to be labeled but I need to understand what this is. Sitting around and behaving so intimately emotionally, but never knowing if I’m allowed to touch her or whatever, etc etc etc is becoming an issue for me. But i suppose I’ll only get these answers directly from her. I don’t know what the adjective “lonely” means here. She doesn’t strike me as lonely, she has a decent friend group she sees regularly, keeps busy, and travels a lot. I always have a project going on, I’m headed out of town soon actually, and also have a solid group of friends I see regularly. Not sure if you were saying we’re connected because we have no other options and are alone decaying inside of our homes? I spend time with her because I choose to, because I’m happy when I’m around her. I’m happy around certain other people too, or when I’m engaging in my hobbies, she just is particularly enticing. She’s also told me she chooses to spend her time with me because it’s easy being around me and the chemistry is good This is true and valuable, I think both concepts are true: This is true, but so it is also valid that I’m realizing I need this to be defined It’s to the point I feel guilty when I’m on dating websites, it’s not her fault. She didn’t do anything. But I feel like I’m cheating on her and we aren’t even together. This is a byproduct of the amount of time we spend and how close we have become. But in actuality we aren’t together, and one of the women on said website may be a match for me who would want to commit and have a life together. Am I hunting and searching for it, not necessarily, I use the websites very casually as a “opened door/what If/never know” sort of thing. But I’m still young and it might be nice to have. Versus, this sort of undefined go with the flow thing, I could wake up tomorrow and she tells me she’s on her way to a date. Ok cool. Ya, everything ends at some point. But if those are my two scenarios it shines a light on why I think a discussion with her is helpful and maybe even necessary that’s not even considering the fact it’s now become almost painful to have to keep myself from putting my hands on her ever. Actually, writing this out is making me realize that I am actually uncomfortable with the situation to a notable degree. The few times I’ve tried to scale back she wonders where I am or asks why I’m acting weird. I think getting clarity on this would be beneficial for her too

At 7 weeks in, this isn’t romantic, or a sign of compatibility and strength, it’s intense, it’s scary, and it’s foreboding of eventual disaster. When things go up quickly, they come down just as quickly. So, you shouldn’t be speechless, the writing was on the wall. Maybe you’ve never been in this situation and it caught you off guard, but the good news is, now you can avoid it in the future. build a relationship with someone slowly and with meaning. Not with overt romantic gestures, and ostentatious romance words. It’s not that those things are bad in and of themselves, but in the context that you did it, you were playing house with a stranger and your house had 0 foundation. Maybe she was naive too, rather than nefarious, sometimes two people just don’t know any better

It’s sort of been a theme since I met her. For instance, she has never wanted kids and had to deal with society saying she should and in that same way she is annoyed at how society, and her friends, essentially tell her she needs a husband to be a complete woman. She has a lot of grievances about these ideologies and expresses them to me because I relate to them, I suppose. I’ve never wanted kids either, and don’t necessarily find the idea of a legal marriage attractive for many people who engage in it. I can be single, I’m not someone who desperately seeks out a partner etc etc so we’ve found a lot of common ground there. Right. This is why I do also think what she and I are doing, without clarification, is dangerous for me. I understand @Wiseman2s viewpoint about just enjoying it for what it is, absent of anxiety and all of that. And that’s true to a degree but the reality is that she could meet someone and begin dating and then what we have is over. Which again is to the point that this isn’t a regular friendship. Regular friendships don’t end when someone meets a partner. But what we are doing wouldn’t fly. we spent the past 2 days together. I cooked last night. Today we got some errands done then went out for dinner. I bought some stuff to cook for us next time. Then we’ve got new years together. We’re basically a couple without the physical intimacy. She gets to say she doesn’t want a partner while I’m fulfilling all of these partner roles. It’s starting to come to a head where it just doesn’t make a lot of sense. Like yea im enjoying it, but part of me is concerned. I’ve got to look out for my future self. But what I said in a previous comment that I’m finally realizing is all of this fear and anxiety is likely due to the fact that I don’t really know how to properly handle the potential loss. I’ve always avoided grief and feelings around it. I think once I figure that out and feel stable in it I’d be more likely to be direct because I’d know I can handle the outcome. Ya but I don’t think she does this with just anyone, esp a random. But who knows, people are surprising. It took us months of casually getting to know each other before that sort of commentary even came up with us. She seems to need some sort of a connection to begin behaving like that from all she’s said and all I’ve witnessed. I don’t disagree with you at all in that things can change abruptly; I just don’t want to become suspicious of someone who has not given me reason to be suspicious of her. So far she’s been opened and honest with me, the dialogue has been transparent and I’ve been allowed to ask her anything I’ve needed, and vice verse. I really feel like we’ve developed/are developing a deep trust and bond together. She left me in her house alone for the first time yesterday, I have access to her passwords and all sorts of stuff. Not in a weird or controlling way, we just come to exist very openly around one another. I trust her and I trust the feelings she’s sharing with me are true.

I’m not really actively looking for a partner but I’m not closed off to it. Meaning, I’m on some dating websites and I’m active on the meetup app. But I’m not out hunting, never have been the type to do that I’ve also never been one to wait around for someone. I’m not waiting and hoping the stars align with me and my friend. It’s moreso that I’m enjoying her company, have fallen for her, and If it does naturally happen then that’s cool, but I’m opened to whatever comes my way, with whomever, if that makes sense. I know as likely as it is she will meet someone, it’s likely for me too. And sometimes I wonder how she’d feel about it. I mean, we’re so integrated at this point there’s no way I’d be able to maintain my friendship with her while having a girlfriend. All of my other female friends I could maintain them, not her, the friendship is too blurred. Everything would stop because what I have with her, I want with a partner. I can’t give that closeness to 2 women

When I was undergoing therapy to try to work on some of my issues, my therapist said im overly logical. But at the end of the day, I never could break out of it. I don’t know how to really see life any other way. I need complete clear avenues, black and whites. Logically my intention isn’t to keep myself at a distance, I don’t have that agenda when I do it. But now that you bring it up I wonder if that’s really what it’s accomplishing Ya, but this is where I get confused. And my thread from months ago turned into a giant circle of me being confused and never really “getting it.” Going with what one feels is odd, because there should be clear and structured signs pointing to what to do thats why I overanalyze cos I need to find the evidence to base my moves on. When it’s suggested I don’t do this, my brain blanks. It doesn’t make sense to me. I can’t let my need to know 100% how it’ll turn out go. If I could stop my brain from doing this, I would. and if I do tell her I want more and all of that, and she says no, I don’t know if I even have the tools to respond to that. I try to imagine the scenario so I can prepare but I don’t like how it makes me feel, it’s just a blur. Or rage. And I can’t be doing that stuff, so I guess I just don’t like to make a move, with anything in life, unless I know the [positive] outcome. Maybe this is where my answer lies though. Maybe I need to figure out the tools to deal with her saying no, or no longer having her around, so it’s not so unknown and scary for me. Maybe then I’d stop avoiding being direct with her

Yes, it is. I guess I don’t have to use the word “jealous” but I think mentioning in some way that when I thought of the prospect of another man, *that* was what prompted some strong feelings. I think that’s a bit more obvious without being too much or overbearing because otherwise it could just be misread as a friendship thing, again, and I’m finally ready to break out of that. I always tell her I enjoy spending my time with her, so I have to use more direct wording. We were together yesterday for 8 hours and it didn’t feel like enough time. I txtd when I got home letting her know i had a nice time. And she said she did as well. When we were watching tv on the couch I noticed it seems like we sort of were using “handing eachother the remote” to touch one another’s hand, and we were sharing a cocktail out of the same glass. I dunno. Time to move this fwd but it’s true that at the end of the day, it just boils down to me not wanting to lose her in my life.

I think I can do this. Tonight she invited me to be with her on new years so I may do it then. I’ll try to sneak it in casually like “is this better than the Christmas party?” And then say it. Perfect time to move on with my life if she responds differently than I’d like I suppose

I said she was upset that her friend suggested she met her brother for a potential relationship. She said she wasn’t interested and didn’t want to. Not sure why that read to you as she’s “putting herself out there.” I knew her brother was supposed to be at the Christmas dinner, and my mind started racing. But my friend has explicitly stated over and over she wasn’t interested and asked her friend to stop trying to set her up with people

She’s never once told me this. Where did you get this from? No I flatter her in the now. I think she’s sexy now the old photo thing was something that happened months ago anyway, I’m on my way to her place now, as per usual

Oh, ok, I misunderstood I think she might be interested because of the type of emotional connection we have made. I don’t know in what way she’s interested, but the depth seems beyond a normal friendship. I don’t think the no underwear thing has anything to do with it, I just found it strange she opened the door in that state in a short thin robe. That’s all. I think she might be interested in some way because of how she interacts with me and the way she touches me and looks at me. She’s emotionally vulnerable with me and craves me to respond in an emotionally vulnerable way. She’s told me she likes me and needs me. In what way, I don’t know, but she’s told me it. When we were at her friends house last week she blew me a kiss from across the way. It’s little moments like those in the midst of much bigger ones. It’s not that I’m giggling childishly at someone blowing me a kiss, it’s that when you’re in a large group of people and everyone is interacting and you look over at the person you’re connected to and in that moment you get a sweet gesture from them, well, it feels nice, it’s notable. Same thing with when we go out to dinner with groups and she touches my inner thigh under the table to communicate with me, it’s not crass. It’s gentle, and classy, and the energy behind it is nice. We almost always end our day with a convo and she tells me about her day, things that made her happy, or sad. She’s really encouraging with me about my own things and when I’m annoyed with her I voice it and she really does change her behavior, I do the same for her. It resembles connections I’ve had with girlfriends. I don’t think those comments, phrased like that, are helpful because they’re said as if I’m *supposed* to be behaving in some way because I’m a man. When this person has also said she doesn’t want a relationship in general lol I don’t even fully believe her because she says it so often, for someone who doesn’t want one, she sure spends a lot of time trying to convince herself of it but I can say I’m not super happy with how it’s going because the idea of her being with someone is sad for me. I’m fine until I remember that reality. I tend to agree with @rainbowsandroses take. I think this is somewhat comfortable cos neither of us have to address the elephant in the room. Doesn’t mean it’s me she wants, but I know she’s enjoying the fruits with a guy who isn’t pushing for some commitment. I’m doing the same

I studied psychology for a very long time and decided I was fascinated by human disorders and trauma, but didn’t want anything to do with helping random strangers out of it. So I went down a completely different path. I have a good grasp on a lot of this stuff probably because of my background, I saw myself in literature over and over. But stopping an internal train with no brakes and applying tools to real-life scenarios is a different beast. I let myself unravel on these boards to try and break out of this. She has no idea I’m like this. actually, I think she picks up on some stuff, judging from a few recent comments she’s made. And I’ve opened up to her about my lack of empathy and my black and white thinking. I thought she’d stop talking to me but she hasn’t. She asked me some questions about it. thank you for the book suggestion!

Ok so I have an actual update a few hours ago she txtd me a bunch of pictures from the dinner and then said she’d call me in a bit. Just got off of the phone with her about an hour ago. Well, ya I was wrong. I suppose my concern for myself is that (1) I even am capable of spiraling like this at all with no ability to stop it, and (2) at some point she really will meet someone, the clock restarts, another ticking time bomb

Thank you for your kind responses, I do appreciate them. And you’re right, I felt a piece of that today

I just put it in my cart, I’ll give it a read im not completely out of the loop with this sort of thing either. I know that I’m easy for her too because I’m not asking for commitment. She has commitment fears, and I know she gets a lot of benefits from me without having to be vulnerable in the ways she fears but at the end of the day it’s pretty stupid because we’ve both gotten hurt already. We recovered well, with care for one another and conversations on how to do better, but our attempts at “not having feelings” isn’t working out well. Pretty sure I made her cry the other day, not on purpose obviously, but still.

Isn’t that the point of the message board? Message boards are a medium to discuss thoughts. I have a history of not feeling anything, at all, and invalidating myself. Which honestly probably plays a BIG role in why this particular issue is so difficult for me. So writing things out on a message board forces me to interact with my thoughts and fears I wouldn’t blame her but i can work through my feelings about it however I need to Lol

I think the flowers, chocolate, and dinner spread I did for her on her birthday was pretty romantic. I’m not tacky either, it was all meticulous and high-end. Lit with candles. not saying it is the same as discussing a commitment, but I’d say it was a romantic gesture Both things are true within myself simultaneously. Don’t you ever have opposing thoughts that are both true to varying degrees? It’s true that I want something more with her, but it’s also true that I think I’d be inclined to bolt if she were to be upfront about wanting something with me. I’m not saying I wouldn’t regroup and hold myself together afterwards.

For me, it does. It’s exactly what it is, making stupid light-hearted sexual comments once in a blue moon is easier than sitting down and being honest about my feelings. It gives me little validation hits and adds a bit of fun. It’s not what I really want, or how I really want it, but it’s easy False. We rarely bring up sexual innuendos. We have a real friendship. She really doesn’t need my company anyway, she’s out with her friend group a lot, staying active. She’s expressed to me that she has a preference for my company. She tells me that a lot actually This sounds like some weird mommy son fetish talk. No. I’m explaining she didn’t have underwear on because I’m painting a picture of what’s going on as you seem to think this is some weird one-sided obsession when in actuality she pursues my company all of the time I’ve explained our friendship outside of the occasional sexual talk but you’ve ignored those explanations? Tolerate what? I think you misunderstand our connection and however it is you’re understanding it (in some similar fashion to what you’re repeating back to me) I would agree that it would be weird and of no substance. But what you repeat back to me is not accurate with what I’m witnessing in person clearly I’m offering her something or she wouldn’t stick around. And she tells me as much