Top 3 Mistakes In Attempting to Help Suicidal/Depressed People

[dil]

Yes, I'm a presumptuous little...

 

but that's besides the point. (I'm dead tired right now, but I'll try my best to type up something coherent). I've had a few bad observations lately, and this was typed by myself (my own thoughts and opinions on this). Feel free to add or argue.

 

1. Do NOT tell them their problems are insignificant or that others have it so much worse.

 

We all have our problems, they wouldn't be problems if they weren't difficult according to each individual. Rich people can kill themselves, beautiful people can kill themselves, famous people can kill themselves and hell, even rich, famous and beautiful people can kill themselves. It is not helpful to point out how others have it worse then them. I recall Andrew (mylastwords23) clearly stating this point: "If the [knowledge] that people suffer worse than I do makes me feel better, then I'd hate myself even more than I already do." A suicidal person is often full aware that others have it worse than them, but that thought just makes them feel more guilty and terrible about how they're feeling themselves. It wouldn't be a mental illness if it made sense to feel that way. Telling them they shouldn't feel a certain way because so and so has it worse does not help. Saying you're giving them 'perspective' is just patronizing as it clearly insults the intelligence of the person you're talking to.

 

2. Do NOT get angry at them.

 

Okay, this frankly saddens me. If you cannot summon the empathy to feel for the person and treat them fairly without accumulated bitterness over their condition: Don't even bother trying! What could you possibly achieve by getting angry at them? Just remove yourself. If you get angry at them, and try to make them see sense by aggressively attacking them, you'll just alienate them. Or worse, make them feel worse about themselves.

 

3. Do NOT tell them they're selfish

 

Do you honestly believe mental illness is a choice? Do you think these people wake up in the morning thinking: “Today, I will become depressed, writhe in agony and hope to hurt the people I love the most.”? Of course not, this again, is insulting towards their intelligence. They don’t want to hurt anyone, but they feel extreme agony in their lives. Telling someone how horrible they are for not caring about hurting those closest to them is taking a high-horse position when it is clearly not helpful. When one becomes depressed, they can’t help but be more focused on their own pain. When someone loses their leg in an accident are they more concerned about their parents mourning for them or are they more concerned about the agony in their leg? When someone is under physical torture there may come a point when they rather die than continue living with the horrible pain of being tortured. Just because the pain is mental it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

 

Of course, there are cases where suicide is revenge, but in this context, those cases are irrelevant to my points.

 

-Dil

[DragonGirl724]

I agree with those 3.

 

Id also like to add to the list.

 

4. Don't push them to get help unless they want to help themselves. Suggest help but don't force it. They will resent you for it, and the desire to change will become more of an obligation than a personal choice.

 

 

 

-DG724

[willow2900]

Good Post - I think a few things can be added here as well.

 

>

 

I think the biggest thing is that someone who has suicidal thoughts is not capeable of pure, rational thought. Just like you state, it is a mental illness, no one's fault, but that precludes people from discussing things in a rational matter. Suicidal tendancies do not allow people to organize their perspectives as maybe they would be able to do in a non-suicidal mind. It's complex and confusing and as you state, requires specific, non-aggressive communication.

 

One of the biggest misconceptions is that should not directly ask someone who you believe is suicidal if they are. I work in emergency medicine and I am around suicidal people quite frequently; as well as those who have gone through with their intents. If you believe someone is suicidal, ask them if they are planning to kill themselves. There are stages to suicidal intentions: thoughts, plans and following through with the plan.

 

Honest, open and continued communication is key.

[doyathink]

Great post Dil. thank you for sharing that with us.

[Daddy Bear]

EDIT: I TOTALLY agree with dil that there is WAY too much of this stuff going on here on ENA, and it is reckless to piss someone off when s/he may be typing with one hand and holding guns to his/her head with the other. The remainder of this post is an academic point and NOT an advocacy of the things she mentioned.

 

1. Do NOT tell them their problems are insignificant or that others have it so much worse.

 

Once when I felt suicidal I started thinking about a quadraplegic friend who couldn't use his hands or legs and was suffering from kidney disease from spending thirty years in a wheelchair yet never complained or gave up, and I came out of it.

 

2. Do NOT get angry at them.

 

One of my nephews was going to remove his head with his sawed-off and his wife stared screaming at him that no, he was going to stand up like a man and help raise his goddamn kids. He's fine now; they just had another child.

 

3. Do NOT tell them they're selfish

 

The very last time I wanted to end it all, my daughter turned to me and said, "Dad! How can you just think of yourself? I want you to walk me up the aisle someday!!"

 

I never considered it again.

 

All three are very good rules of thumb, especially for those with little experience in this area. However, each person and every situation is different, and the same things aren't going to work every time. It takes a very perceptive person to know what to say, based on the psychological clues the suicidal person is giving.

[Managor]

somebloke, I think the examples you gave are fairly uncommon exceptions to the norm; I don't doubt any of what you said, but like you said I think they're very good rules of thumb, and I think it's usually pretty smart and safe to go with these ideas.

[trash mail]

sometimes it make me wonder why people are so suicidal, it only happens in the mass in developed countries. I have been depressed but sometimes it requires a sharp kick up the * * * * to get moving. It was a long process to get to where i a now.

One of the things that helped me realize that there is more out there is going on a trip to a 3rd world/developing country, it forces you to see that there is a harshness to reality but these people can still laugh and be joyous with what they have.

Buy a depressed people a ticket out of their 'comfort'zone.

[afrodite79]

sometimes it make me wonder why people are so suicidal, it only happens in the mass in developed countries. I have been depressed but sometimes it requires a sharp kick up the * * * * to get moving. It was a long process to get to where i a now.

One of the things that helped me realize that there is more out there is going on a trip to a 3rd world/developing country, it forces you to see that there is a harshness to reality but these people can still laugh and be joyous with what they have.

Buy a depressed people a ticket out of their 'comfort'zone.

 

It's not always that simple. That might work for some. Some people are depressed about actual things going on in their lives that can be resolved. Others have mental disorders that are brain imbalances that can really only be helped with therapy and/or meds. They really have no control over their moods without professional help. That's how my depression is. It just hits without warning and is hard to get out of without help. Sometimes it lasts for weeks or months. For some people it lasts for years, It only got better when i had a good therapist or counselor and meds. Most people who are depressed know that other people live harder lives. It's not always about feeling that your life is way worse than everyone's in the world.

[afrodite79]

Dil,

This is a great topic. I saw some of the comments on another thread and it angered me the way people are responding to the OP. I agree with all the points you posted. Saying or doing those things to someone in serious pain is totally counterproductive.

[Daddy Bear]

somebloke, I think the examples you gave are fairly uncommon exceptions to the norm; I don't doubt any of what you said, but like you said I think they're very good rules of thumb, and I think it's usually pretty smart and safe to go with these ideas.

I completely agree, Managor. What I'm rebutting is dil's absolute, out-of-hand renouncement of these tactics in all cases. Like brain surgery, they're extraordinarily risky, and can be disastrous in unskilled hands, but under the right circumstances they DO save lives.

[Daddy Bear]

sometimes it make me wonder why people are so suicidal, it only happens in the mass in developed countries.

It's called sensory overload. The simple, pastoral life endemic to the more bucolic areas of the world is much easier for the human brain to handle than is modern society, so we reach the breaking point more quickly and more often.

[rabbitskin]

I totally agree with Ellie, in fact, I'd ask that someone start a thread about things that *might* help someone suicidal. I've done the whole baby-sitting thing where I've been terrified to leave someone alone, but responding to their reasons for feeling depressed? I didn't have a clue. For example, the house stank. It was obvious that the person hadn't cleaned a dish in weeks, the sink was full of mold and crap, and this was just another reason why he was feeling awful. ("I'm such a slob, I can't bring myself to do anything, it's such a big mess I can't start, I'm a failure" etc) Should I have said, get up and do it NOW, you'll feel better after? Or, don't worry about it? In the end I cleaned it all myself just to give myself something to do while I talked to him.

Now, the general advice that people/websites give is, get the person to a therapist. Well, big deal, he has a therapist. At 3am the therapist wasn't there. I was. And I was terrified to say the wrong thing.

 

Can someone (who has been there) talk about things that do help someone suicidal?

[Stari]

The thought of suicide as a solution is NOT an irrational conclusion. But it's probably a conclusion based on too negatively filtered data.

 

The suicidal person probably feel trapped in a perceived negative spiral that doesn't provide them with rewards, only draining their energy.

 

The depressed person may turn suicidal when the lack of rewards has in time made them exhausted, making every little task feel almost unsurmountable. Even if the suicidal person is aware of possibly benefitting actions, the effort of requesting an application form and filling it in can be daunting.

 

Yes, at this stage the suicidal person is selfish. This is understandable since the suicidal person may be struggling for their life and will have less focus on other people at that critical moment.

 

I personally felt like being stuck in quicksand up to my neck and still sinking; Panic set in. I estimated coping time to be...at most a couple of months. I contacted aquintances for support, to throw me a rope. But instead the aquintances were unattracted by my negative outlook and they withdrew. Disappointment.

 

The turn-around:

I had a dream of my own funeral. I was lying in my closed coffin, first person perspective, which was lowered into to pit. After the pit was filled above me I started to panic. I thought: "Wait, I don't want to die." I made a giant leap upwards, through the mass, towards the surface while thinking "I want to Liiiiiiive!". But I couldn't reach the surface. I was drowning. I held my breath. One second. Two second.

 

Woke up, taking a deep breath. The dream lingered: "I want to live". I realised that I really didn't want to die. So thereforeeee I should stop thinking about suicide as a solution because apparently it was not what I wanted anyway.

But that realisation was not met with relief: "Darn, if I don't want to die that means that I will have to live through this s h i t".

 

And to find the energy to live through, I started thinking about what I actually enjoyed doing. I found one worthwhile project: To be able to exercise again. I had not been able to for a long time after an ancient injury so I contacted my GP to get a corrective operation done.

Before a decision to operate would be made though, I needed to try a couple of months of physio therapy first. The physio therapist asked me what my goal after the two months was to which I replied: "To still be alive".

Four months later I could exercise again and even I realised that the depression had lifted. But other people noted that my mood had improved after only a few weeks of physio therapy.

 

Over time, my coping time went from from two months to two years to indefinitely.

 

Doing one thing they love may be enough to lift depression, but it makes one vulnerable if that power source is taken away for some reason. It's good to identify and try to do other things that immediately puts one in a good mood.

 

I hope sharing my own experience can be helpful for others.

 

Stari

[Carl5000]

It's called sensory overload. The simple, pastoral life endemic to the more bucolic areas of the world is much easier for the human brain to handle than is modern society, so we reach the breaking point more quickly and more often.

 

 

Its simple, the main reason for suicide are OTHER PEOPLE and the more secondary factors r materalism, capitalism even the collapse of religion as we no longer have a spirituality or hero worship - which creates a nilhilistic society, as without god anything is permitable morality, rape, murder and life is meaningless - also darwins origins of species was a killer - human beings weren't created in the image of god, we came about from pond scum and we have no more intrinsic value within nature.

 

Its mostly other people though - their hopelessness over never finding a mate, splitting up with their girlfriend, feeling unloved, family problems, a lack of trust. I agree, in a more rural environments they have a bonding through strive, closeness, love something which even marx describes, even heidegger felt humans were better off being engaged within tasks, for him that was agriculture, he hated the technological advancements as it caused alienation.

 

I think sartre sumed it up well in his play last exit and the famous line 'HELL IS OTHER PEOPLE' or freud in his final book after fifty years of psychology said the worse type of pain isn't physical pain, not fate with its slings and arrows, the most pain is caused by OTHER PEOPLE who also take great satisfaction in causing it, although they'd never admit it to themselves..

 

Homo homini lupus - man is a wolf to man - freud

[RRB]

1. Do NOT tell them their problems are insignificant or that others have it so much worse.

I have had this myself and although it didnt bother me too much i can see where you are coming from with this.

 

2. Do NOT get angry at them.

definitely agree here. I have tried to speak to me ex girlfriend about how i felt and she got angry. It made me more determined to end my life due to her attitude.

 

 

3. Do NOT tell them they're selfish

 

Completely agree here, for the first time in over 20 years i finally had it in me to sit down with my mother at the weekend and try to explain to her how i was feeling, before that i had sat in silence and suffered. She seemed ok but the next day she called me and i had just felt all talked out and really didnt want to speak anymore that day so i didnt answer. SHe left a voice mail saying she would call a little later. I called her back and said i didnt feel like talking today and i would call her tomorrow. SHe started crying and shouting "what am i trying to do to her" "what has she done to deserve this". I was like whoa there, its not about you here. THat made me feel worse, made me feel like a burden on her. As stated, i didnt wake up one morning thinking hey lets get depressed and suicidal and scare the crap out of people for some fun.

[RRB]

Good Post - I think a few things can be added here as well.

 

 

I think the biggest thing is that someone who has suicidal thoughts is not capeable of pure, rational thought. Just like you state, it is a mental illness, no one's fault, but that precludes people from discussing things in a rational matter. Suicidal tendancies do not allow people to organize their perspectives as maybe they would be able to do in a non-suicidal mind. It's complex and confusing and as you state, requires specific, non-aggressive communication.

 

 

I agree with this, but the scary thing is before i found this site and had some help I honestly did believe i was thinking rationally and straight. I fought depression for a long time alone and in silence. Then this year a whole load of other things came up that i just could not handle alone. I thought i was totally clear headed in my thought train of wanting to end my life. I still want to end my life and i struggle everyday but at least i now know im not thinking straight and that my judgement is clouded.

[girl friend]

This thread was a great idea di.

 

And i agree with all of you and the clear debate that is going on, all situations are situational! But techniques and theory can help!!

 

Some theory:

 

'Little Tricks' that us mere mortal psychologists use

 

(Of course they do not work for everyone, are situational, and controversial like everything else.) But people are asking for techniques and help so i'm posting what i know.

 

 

 

Getting people to think actively

 

“It sounds to me like you’d like to be out of that pitt?”

 

Get them to step outsides their own feelings and defeatedness.

 

e.g. ask them what they think someone they very much respect would do in their situation.

 

They say “so whats to stop you from taking that first step?”

 

 

 

Get them to generate things they can look forward to.

 

Book them an appointment (if in a situation to do so.) Even if you do not do appointments!

 

 

 

We are teaching them to trick their own depression.

 

 

 

Use praise.

 

Selective reflection.

 

Provoke them to think about problem-solving.

This could move them past suicidal thought.

 

Deconstructive questions (I.e. “how do you feel) are useful in OTHER situations. Here we need Constructive questions.

“How would ‘suchabody’ solve that?”

“How did you solve these feelings in the past?”

 

USE the ‘How’ questions

 

“How can you solve this?”

 

 

 

Comparison:

 

They tend to compare themselves to ridiculous models.

So don’t compare their functioning to how they used to be/to a well person.

 

But to yesterday/last week.

 

Show them how much they are improving. What you say can mean the world to people. It can be the difference between life and death.

 

 

 

Use Surface Empathy – that is, mild empathy. Do not echo their mood!!! (To use complete empathy would be disasterous, you’d both get each other more and more down!!!)

 

 

 

Paradoxical Reasoning – the basic point here is “don’t let your feelings guide what you do.”

 

You know how changeable feelings are.

 

 

The 5 minute rule. Tell them to do the thing they are worried about doing (e.g. if they are worried about an assignment, a conversation, whatever…) for 5 minutes.

 

They’ll find it alright!

Because nothing will ever be as bad as a depressed person imagines it to be!!!!

 

 

 

IMPORTANT!

 

One of the most dangerous times is when they are actually getting better.

 

When depressed they may not have actually had the energy to commit suicide. When getting better they suddenly have the energy.

 

 

Reality Check

 

If dealing with the attitude: ‘Everything ll be better when I die.” it is ok to challenge it here.

 

No it wont be!

 

If a child dies before its parents it turns nature on its head.

It will never return to normality.

They will never get over it.

 

GENTLY challenge this belief here, it is wrong and needs challenging. Challenging them can help.

[applepie]

I agree with Dilly. I've been amazed at the kind of techniques people try to use when disuading someone from suicide on this and other forums. It's just adding salt to the wounds. I know if I wanted to kill myself and people were telling me my problems weren't that bad, or that I was selfish, I'd want to do it even more. If things could be worse than what they were at that current point in time, then the future would be looking pretty bleak.

 

I think the only thing a non-professional can do is explain that things will get better and let them know that you are always there to talk. Then they should push them in the right direction for appropriate guidance.

[doyathink]

I think one thing ppl need to remember when giving advice on this site ( or any where for that fact) to someone wanting to end their life is.....if it were your son...daughter...mother...brother. If it were someone near and dear to your heart, how and what would you say to them to keep them alive?

 

When someone is telling you they want to kill themselves...they are at a critical point in their life and it needs to be handled with care...not criticism of any form!

[Carl5000]

As its a perspective -) i agree with points 2,3 although part is 1 questionable, even though i remember lastwords took offence to me comparing my situation as the same -) It depends on what side of the fence ur on - if its a chemical imbalance then your right, they can't help it, although if its from irrational thought patterns then showing that other people are worse off, in a non-partonising way, can be successful.

 

It works for when i suffer from self loathing and hatred and it allows me to realise that i should be grateful for what i have. This is a stab in the dark, i don't know exactly when andrews problem was, as i never read all his posts like urself. But, it seems to be that he felt alone, an outsider, alienated from the world and justifiable at 23 having never dated(or did he date once)?.

 

So for me personally, the prior was his circumstances which caused the mental illness and trying to help him see more rationality was a noble thing. Although, what worked for him was a compassion and empathy different stokes for different folks. Your probably right, when your suicidal iirational thoughts r difficult to escape and what causes them is irrelevant if they can't see past the fog.

 

I'll be honest, when your suicidal your emotions, thinking is completely mixed up. Although, anyone taking the time out, to try and help is a positive thing. I offended andy although it wasn't intentional, i was only trying to help him. He shouldn't have seen it as a negative, but a postive that i intially took the time out along with many other people. It didnt work for him, but it might help others - it certainly helped me and it was one of the reasons i got past the depression.

 

I mean, since he's found love.. hes being doing better right? which partly shows it wasn't a chemical inbalance.. but his understandable thinking was fine. What i tried to point out is look i've been there.. i've been single for eights years, doubt i'll date again and i came through it? i don't see what the harm was in that or why he felt guilty. Our situations were similar and i'd been suicidal aswell - just one had come through it and the other was on teh way.

 

sorry i how that makes sense.. im seriously rushing lol out in 2mins footy

[willow2900]

I agree with this, but the scary thing is before i found this site and had some help I honestly did believe i was thinking rationally and straight. I fought depression for a long time alone and in silence. Then this year a whole load of other things came up that i just could not handle alone. I thought i was totally clear headed in my thought train of wanting to end my life. I still want to end my life and i struggle everyday but at least i now know im not thinking straight and that my judgement is clouded.

 

I'm glad that you are able to work through your issues! This site is helpful to so many to get opinions and possible solutions. Keep talking....it'll help.

 

There are such variencies to mental illness and does not purely mean chemical imbalance. Depression can be debilitating and confusing. And yes, you can think that you are clear, and that's what perplexing about the whole situation. IMO, the key is communication. Whether you completely agree with all the points listed in this thread or not I have yet to read anyone saying that you should close the door.

[RRB]

I'm glad that you are able to work through your issues! This site is helpful to so many to get opinions and possible solutions. Keep talking....it'll help.

 

Wouldnt go as far as saying im working through them, im trying but sometimes think im fighting a losing battle.

[sweetharmony]

yes, i agree with Dil. I, too have had sucidial feelings, though never really posted in this forum about it too much. But i have read some of the discussions and I really think it's best to refrain from telling these people they're selfish. no one can understand the intense emotional, psychic pain that person is experiencing until they've walked in their shoes. telling a suicidal person to think about these other people rather seems futile for a person who doesn't really have support or close friends, or may have family members who are abusive to them. these individuals may feel that the pain is just too unbearable and wish that others could just understand them wanting to end it. for these people, they see no other way to end the pain and to live it daily seems futile.

 

instead, maybe talking about their own pain is a better approach. and please don't take this as i am not standing on an ivory tower giving my expert advice, because far be it for me to say my advice is better than others.

[Brooke657]

My brother actually did end up killing himself last March and I think the worst part of it was everyone could see that he was really depressed and sucicidal but noone thought he would actually end up killing himself and noone knew what to say or how to convince him that suicide wasnt the answer. He has a psychiatrist and a therapist but refused to speak to either of them. I feel like it was such a useless death so I'm really glad someone posted something about how to talk to people who are feeling that way because I really wish I had known. For the last month or so before he died I feel like he was already gone and I don't really know what anyone could have said. For some reason it still came as a shock to everyone when he did end up doing it.

[Brooke657]

wow you sound really serious...it's kind of weird.