Employers suck, and aren't "fair" at all.

[JadedStar]

I like people more than companies too, which is why I don't care for it.

 

What I have learned from HR is that certain rules only apply to certain people, and that the CEO's and other top level people call the shots even if it is against company policy, which is what we are supposed to uphold, yet we take the blame when anything goes wrong.

 

As for me, I spend most of my time helping people with their company provided benefits. I am looking to move into my career field but it has been rough. I would never do this for a career if I could help it, but I have mouths to feed.

 

 

When CEO's make decisions that are not ethical or go against policy then it is up to the orgs like Sarbanes Oxley to clean house. At least Enron did afford more stringent practices in the corporate world.

[JadedStar]

This is the way the game is played. You can either let it beat you, or you can learn how to turn things to your own advantage. After all, most all of us are somewhere in the middle of the two extreme examples I listed above. We aren't SO unique that we can just walk in and demand the world, but we aren't totally average either. Everybody has some set of skills they can use to their advantage. And I mean EVERYBODY.

 

BRAVO! Just what I was trying to say.

 

I am not saying become a mindless corporate drone. You do not have to give up your individuality. I am saying play the game to your advantage.

 

BRAVO AGAIN! This is why i was taking offense to some of the statements, because it was implied that because I take advantage of the game and play it that I am a mindless drone. I am smart enough to help the system and also to work it to my advantage. IT is a win/win situation. I am not saying I'll never be unemployed, because the likliehood that this WiLL happen at some point in my future is strong. We are in a world where employees are no longer loyal to companies and companies are no longer loyal to employees. People and corporations make decisions based on money.

 

srvcrow if you are telling me that you would not have left your company if another company offered you ten grand to come to their side then you are indeed unique and a member of a dying breed. So if most people would jump ship for that kind of oppty, why is it so impossible to realize that a company also will do this?

[JadedStar]

No one would hire me either except for fast food.

 

I worked at a Wendy's for three months then quit to work at CVS. They hired me in a heart beat. It was an easy job, too.

 

Fast food sucks but it gets you experience.

I wish you luck!

 

Ah a fellow realist!

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=JadedStar;1615041

 

but please know that my opinion is just as valid as yours.

 

It is indeed. We just see things differently, and that difference is based upon that "veritable plethora" of reasons: Age, experience, gender, and so many other factors. And there's never harm in that.

 

And yes your comments WERE insulting

 

Then with all due respect, you need to grow up and get over yourself. I find it amazing that you're so quick to feel insulted by me, a guy whom you've never met, someone with no degree of power or control whatsoever over your life, but simultaneously so very quick to defend, justify, and rationalize the actions of those who DO have such authority (i.e., employers). It's that or you have never, ever, ever worked anywhere and for anyone who was, for lack of a better way to say the thing, a jerk. And if that's the case, and as I've said before, good for you! But don't try selling your fairytale life to the rest of us being THE only reality regarding corporate America.

 

because you basically called anyone who didn't agree with you dimwitted.

 

No! What I said is that one's success in corporate America is relative to the degree that one is willing and able to conform, compromise, and capitulate. That's an incredibly simple and absolutely true statement! You're admitting it by rightly blaming MY experience on MY refusal to do so to a lesser degree than you. You're better at "playing by the rules" than me.

 

I dont feel like going back and finding it but yes, you absolutely DID say that people who didn't agree were just "yes men".

 

No! I said that sycophants fair better more often than not than those who simply sheepishly obey and don't challenge authority. This is simply another completely accurate and true observation. That you're taking all this personally is YOUR problem, not mine.

 

You may not have gotten along well with others in hool because you insist you are always right.

 

No! I've ALWAYS done the exact same thing, in school, at work, and in life, that I've done here: Ask a whole bunch of questions and state conclusions I've reached based on my observations and experience of that so-called "human condition."

 

And you're responding as do most: Instead of answering questions, you're assuming insult where none is intended.

 

Let's agree to disagree

 

I've done that all along. And I'm always comfortable with that because the ONE thing you and I and everyone else share is far more important than these little discussions: We all got to work and do the best we can in life. So again, I really do apologize that you've taken personal offense at anything I've said. Disagree with you? Sure, on lots of things. But again, that's only because we've travelled different paths in life. It's no big deal.

 

As for the "i have nothing to hide comment" i assume that was taken from another post as I dont recall having said that.

 

It was.

 

But thru it all i do not think you are a mean man

 

No, not "mean" at all. I assure you that. Confrontational? Yes, regrettably, and to a fault. But not mean at all.

 

I think you are angry that you became a casualty of the system and I do understand that.

 

It does happen, doesn't it? But please do understand I blame ME far more than "them"! But only because it's my nature to question everything so much! I've just never perceived that to be a bad thing.

 

that the only wise move is to replace me.

 

"Wise" for the company? Perhaps. But proof of the double-standard that you and I are expected to be "better" than them. And good that you

 

will hate it, but i understand WHY it happens.

 

See? I said that you and I would get along fine if we had the chance to sit and talk about this stuff!

 

I just think you are looking at this thru rose colored glasses if you think that a company should not be money driven.

 

Oh no! I know it has to be BUT I DO believe, with every breath I take, they "could" try to find a "balance" somewhere between "profit" and "humanity." It's no more complicated than that.

 

Well, I have to go play now! You enjoy the day!

[FortunateOne]

Awesome post! Took my thoughts from my mind. All business cultures require teamwork to play in a positive manner. This is why when I interview a prospective new employee I make sure they fit into our culture for each individule department. This is why attitude is very important in representing your skills.

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=avman;1615047

 

This is the way the game is played.

 

Agreed, absolutely. I just positively hate the fact that it IS a silly game, one about control, manipulation, double-speak, and all the rest. And yes, it's one I COULD "play" to my own advantage MUCH better than I have. I simply prefer the painful and almost always self-defeating "direct" approach. I'm a samurai in a ninja-world, right?

[FortunateOne]

QUOTE=avman;1615047

 

This is the way the game is played.

 

Agreed, absolutely. I just positively hate the fact that it IS a silly game, one about control, manipulation, double-speak, and all the rest. And yes, it's one I COULD "play" to my own advantage MUCH better than I have. I simply prefer the painful and almost always self-defeating "direct" approach. I'm a samurai in a ninja-world, right?

 

But a Samurai by it's nature served a master to the death. Maybe a Ronin.

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=MoneyGod;1615633

 

But a Samurai by it's nature served a master to the death. Maybe a Ronin.

 

You are so right and I am so busted! Thanks very much! Cool. I'll just be a Ronin!

 

(truth is, of course, as you can tell by this comparison, is it's not that I have a problem with "authority figures" in general....I just have found very few worthy of that sort of "loyalty" that employers seem to want)

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=MoneyGod;1615626

 

All business cultures require teamwork to play in a positive manner.

 

Another corporate buzzword that makes me bristle, one that suggests an "ideal" that is so far from the reality of the thing it's not funny.

 

How can anyone expect people to believe in the "team concept" when, at the end of the game (to stick with the sports analogy), there's always a Most Valuable Player? What is the recognition of a ONE MVP except a blatant admission that all "team-members" are NOT "created equal"?

 

"Teamwork"? Every blue-collar worker in this country knows what a lie that is. There's never money for a new band-saw in the shop, or new welders, or new tow-motors, but, hey, lookie there! There's a brand new department manager and new computers for the office and new carpet and all the rest.

 

IF there is a "team" concept going on, it's about one team (managment) versus all the rest. Yes, as always, I understand this, I "get it"! But it's the fact that these are myths and hollow words that get to me.

 

And how are these "team-members" supposed to feel and react when the "owners" announce: "Sorry. We're closing this facility in order to increase profits for our shareholders." But it always comes back to attempt to defend, explain, justify, and rationalize anything and everything that benefits "business" while laying all the responsibility and blame on the workers. It's not selling any more--that's one thing I can tell you for a fact! After 51 jobs and driving all over the country in a big-truck, I can tell you after having these conversations with thousands and thousands of people that Americans really are flat out angry as hell at how "corporate America" is treating the rest of us. We're not serfs, we're not slaves, and we're damned sure not "resources"!

 

This is why when I interview a prospective new employee I make sure they fit into our culture for each individule department.

 

Your "culture"? With all due respect, just what the hell does that mean, exactly? Do you want someone qualified, and willing, and able to actually DO the work? Or do you want someone who dresses a certain way, talks a certain way, reads the right books? What?

 

Do y'all really not see and understand how these things become, at its most harmless level, a bunch of "mixed signals"?

 

This is why attitude is very important in representing your skills.

 

Two separate beasts in one breath: "Attitude" and "skills." And spoken as if it's like a hand in a glove. A man's skills speak for themselves via easily verifiable reference checks and so forth. At least have the courage to admit what matters the most (from an employer's point-of-view) is that "attitude" thing, that when you're interviewing someone, "attitude" and "first impressions" trump "skills" every time.

 

And here's the irony: After hiring all these folks with that "right attiude," it's comical to then watch employers complain: "Gee, he's a really nice guy and we like him a lot, but he's just not working out the way we'd hoped. He's not nearly as productive and efficient as we need someone in his capacity to be."

 

And do you know WHY that is? It's because he's spent his entire life learning how to be "nice," how to "fit in," how to avoid even the pretense of challenging authority.

 

Employers complain they can't find anyone who actually wants to work these days! Just got off the phone with my wife and she just finished expressing that exact sentiment at her employers. Yet with the same breath, employers make it clear they want someone who's "nice," who want be any trouble at all.

 

Here's the news flash:

 

Men and women who actually WORK? They will always, always, always be more interested in getting the work done than trying to impress people with their "postive attitudes." And I swear to God, but I thought getting the work done was THE most important thing.

 

What y'all want is an automaton, a flesh-and-blood living being who will function like a robot. It ain't gonna happen. Ever. You have this vision of an employee whose sole purpose in life is to live for your corporation, to show the same enthusiasm for its success as does the man or woman who started it. And you want this for absolutely not one penny more than you think you can get away with paying them.

 

It's not the 50's, people. "Ma-and-pa" stores and 30 years with the same employer and then retiring is dead and buried. But you continue to espouse that same old "work ethic" thing, always conveniently aimed at American people while failing to acknowledge that the rules have changed. You want loyalty and dedication from those who do the work but conveniently justify the absense of the same from employers!

 

THAT'S why I rant so much!

[JadedStar]

How can anyone expect people to believe in the "team concept" when, at the end of the game (to stick with the sports analogy), there's always a Most Valuable Player? What is the recognition of a ONE MVP except a blatant admission that all "team-members" are NOT "created equal"?

 

 

Honestly, it appears what you want is what schools do today that makes me nuts. I hate it. They are afraid to denote winners, MVP's you name it. They want every kid in class to feel like a winner, even if they suck at something. HOw on earth does this make anyone strive to get better? If everyone wins, why have sports? Why have contests? What reward is there for someone who is very good at something if they are no more recognized than someone who is far beneath them?

 

I think what you are looking in the workplace is similar to that politically correct crap that goes on in our schools today. And i swear we are raising a nation of pansies if it continues.

 

Some people work extremely hard and are talented. Why SHOULD THEY NOT be the MVP? I have worked so SO SO MANY slackers in my day and the day they get recognized as much as those who put their heart and soul into it is the day i'll go throw up several times in on day.

 

You want everyone to make the same amount of money and get the same accolades regardless of talent and hard work or dedication. You want tenure to be rewarded regardless of anything else.

 

And getting the work done IS important, but getting the work done with a person who professes to "not get along well with others" can make for a really miserable workday. I personally am glad that employers want to hire people who strive to get along with their workmates.

 

I don't mean to diss you, but if you are revealing any of this in interviews you are likely to be unemployed for a very long time. It is what it is dude. If you are okay with that, go for it. But know that this kind of mindset is going to hold you back...and i know that is what you are upset over, but oh well. that is what being an adult is, making the most out of something that does not appear to be changing anytime soon.

[Batya33]

I can't get my work done with other people if those people are not a good fit for the company's atmosphere, culture and working styles. It doesn't matter how hard those people work if they cannot play nicely in the particular sandbox it hurts morale and productivity. I always assumed my thank you was my paycheck - I try not to expect more and I say that without anger or resentment. I have a hard time working with people in a corporate setting who are overtly hostile or resentful of corporate culture or the hierarchy (I do not like rigid or strict hierarchy but some hierarchy and rank, etc is often essential and doesn't have to be a conflict) - I wonder why they don't get a job elsewhere or open their own business. I've been at the lowest level and the managerial level and all levels have their challenges and trade offs and hard times.

[JadedStar]

Productivity has **** all to do with liking the people you work with. .

 

Oh it does matter, and one of the reasons (there are many others) i work for myself today.

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=JadedStar;1616246

 

Honestly, it appears what you want is what schools do today that makes me nuts.

 

No. I'm sorry it appears that way. I'm talking about nothing any more complicated than GROWN ADULTS being treated like children AND EXPECTED to behave that way!

 

"Be nice." "Share your toys." "Sit in that cubicle." "Raise your hand if you have a question."

 

Tragically, what y'all are mad at me about IS the very thing that drives you AND me nuts: That "new" generation has indeed "taken over" and THEY are the ones perpetuating this crap.

 

God Almighty! There was a time--not THAT very long ago--where it really WAS what y'all keep telling me it IS, and when I question it, challenge it, point out how much of a difference is between your WORDS (still repeating echoes of that "work ethic) and the reality of the situation (that we all ARE being treated like a bunch of damned children, expected to "play nice" instead of ignoring all that crap and just getting the job done!), y'all do what goes on with every employer I've had in the last twenty-years or so: Get angry at ME for actually living by and practicing a philosophy y'all say you believe in! Now YOU tell me what's wrong with THAT picture!

 

I'm the one saying "screw all that 'nice' crap" and let's just "do the job," and y'all say I have a "bad" attitude, and then you have the nerve to tell me *I* am the one wanting "political correctness"? Give a break!

 

Why have contests?

 

That's an EXCELLENT question! Why don't you answer it?

 

Oh, wait: You just did:

 

What reward is there for someone who is very good at something if they are no more recognized than someone who is far beneath them?

 

"...someone who is far beneath them."

 

Y'all have fallen for the oldest trick in the book: Pitting one against the other all for the sake of making you feel "good" about yourself by creating the appearance of being "better" than someone else!

 

Me--and those like me? I don't give one damn what you think of me, period. At the end of the day (in a work environment) all that matters is did *I* do what was expected of me? Y'all are the ones determined to make a "popularity contest" while insisting you "hate" that stuff!

 

And you wonder why I don't "interview" well? It's laughable because in "real" life--and behind closed doors--I rarely meet anyone in a hiring capacity who doesn't have the exact same gripes as I do! It's a silly-a$$ed game and YOU are wanting ME to take it "seriously" while reserving the right to swear to God that YOU are oh-so "different." No, you are "them," the very ones who lack any sense of self-confidence apart from how you are judged in relationship to others! And that, whether you like it or not, is pathetic simply because you equate your "superiority" in some areas with being a "better" person overall and if you can not, will not, and do not grasp THAT distinction, you're far more institutionalized than any inmate I ever knew while working as a correctional officer.

 

And i swear we are raising a nation of pansies if it continues.

 

That's right because it's a "dog eat dog" world and it's "every man for himself," right? See? And YOU have the nerve to preach to ME about "ethics" in business? With the attitude that people are "pansies" for not doing whatever it takes to "succeed," you've given agreement with the idea that there's no place for ethics within the business world. I simply disagree.

 

Some people work extremely hard and are talented. Why SHOULD THEY NOT be the MVP?

 

No problem with that EXCEPT when people equate "MVP" with being BETTER! How many thousands of times do I have to say the same thing before you get it?

 

It's a simple concept: Better job performance does not equate into being a better person! But with rare exception, most make that fatal mistake and then wonder why there exists so much reluctance to "play nice"? God! This is kindergarten-level stuff.

 

I have worked so SO SO MANY slackers in my day and the day they get recognized as much as those who put their heart and soul into it is the day i'll go throw up several times in on day.

 

Then you need to start heaving your guts out because it's those "slackers" whom you say you hate so very much who are the very best at acing those interviews upon which you place so much importance!

 

You want everyone to make the same amount of money and get the same accolades regardless of talent and hard work or dedication. You want tenure to be rewarded regardless of anything else.

 

Oh, BS! Either read my posts or stop commenting!

 

And getting the work done IS important, but getting the work done with a person who professes to "not get along well with others" can make for a really miserable workday.

 

Right. Here we go again. "I want the best of both worlds. I want it all. I want everyone to 'play nice' AND 'work hard' but at the end of the day I want to be the one who is recognized for being 'nicer' and harder working than everyone else so I can really feel good about myself but I also don't want all those loser to feel bad because their work and their niceness went unrewarded."

 

I personally am glad that employers want to hire people who strive to get along with their workmates.

 

"Workmates"? What is that, a new "politically correct" term? Whatever happened to "co-workers"?

 

I don't mean to diss you

 

Jade (if I may call you that), you really don't "get it," do you (and I mean NO disrespect by that!)? You simply CAN NOT (defined literally as in "do not have the ability) to "diss" me! You're in no position of power or authority over my life! If you and I worked side-by-side, we'd get along splendidly--I assure you of that! But if you were my "boss" and I detected the air of "superiority" I sense in your posts (about which I could be completely wrong and if so, tell me! I'm sometimes quick to anger but ever quicker to apologize!), then yes, you and I would lock horns every day until you fired me!

 

but if you are revealing any of this in interviews

 

I try with every ounce of my being to NOT reveal this stuff. But when the person conducting the interview asks me stupid questions like "Where do you see yourself in five years," then yes, all hell breaks loose. It's insulting, patronizing, and consdescending AND completely disengenous for the reasons I said in another post: THEY reserve the right to refuse to answer that SAME question when I pose it to them regarding their precious "company."

 

It is what it is dude.

 

Got me laughing plum out loud with that one! Thanks.

 

But here's the question:

 

Does it have to remain that way? I mean, if you don't like it, and I don't like it, and most other "average" folks don't like, why in God's name does it "have" to be that way?

 

But know that this kind of mindset is going to hold you back

 

It is NOW, in THESE days, under this NEW "business model." But as I said, not twenty years ago, this is a discussion I'd have never had with anyone!

 

True, very short, story:

 

I was 16. Second full-time job after graduating high-school. Called the store manager "stupid." I moved on months later. Fifteen years later I'm applying for a manager's position, retail sales. The district manager is clearing everything with the VP. The DM hands me the phone and says, "HE wants to talk to you." It was my old store manager, the one I had called "stupid." I was hired, no questions asked because, as he told the DM, "Randy will always challenge you if he thinks you're wrong. But he will always respect authority and do what he's told to do when it comes right down to it."

 

Nothing's changed in all this except there is a NEW generation that's taken over and THEY are the ones wanting you and me to place "positive attitudes" and "being nice" ahead of everything else.

 

Put this way: I damned sure didn't start this mess but I positively refuse to play by a bunch of rules that have little place after, oh, about the fourth or fifth grade.

 

I do apologize for being so harsh this time...I really am. But I'm tired of being told *I* have the problem! I've heard it a million times from a million people, all of whom make that ONE mistake that sends me over the edge: Thinking that they are in some way "better" simply because they have a college degree, or make more money, or "fill in the blanks."

 

You see life as a "competition." I don't. That's the fundamental difference. There's nothing I can ever or will ever do, achieve, or have in life that will ever make me feel "superior" to anyone else on this planet. It's just not the reality of the thing.

 

making the most out of something that does not appear to be changing anytime soon.

 

How else will it change if folks like you and I don't demand that it change?

 

Or are you content to live your life on THEIR terms instead of your own?

 

You see, that's what I can't, and won't do.

 

This is MY life, dammit, not "their's"!

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=Batya33;1616251

 

I've been at the lowest level and the managerial level and all levels have their challenges and trade offs and hard times.

 

As the truck-drivers would say: "Heard that I did!"

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=JadedStar;1616346

 

i work for myself today.

 

Good for you!

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=RufusDawes;1616337

 

It has a lot more to do with tolerating and treating with respect those you do not like

 

That's called ethics in the workplace! Has to be the easiest thing in the world for people to do, but I swear to God, somewhere along the way we convinced ourselves it was a bad thing....

 

At least not at the bottom of the ladder in one of our staff meeting our manger could not pronounce words from the head office papers. Funny stuff if you ask me.

 

I like these meetings these days. I take "notes" and share them with everyone else on how often the boss/supervisor/manager/whatever says "like," "ummm," and so forth. And it IS funny because THESE are the very things that the "experts" tell us will kill us in a job interview! Hence, obviously, my anger!

 

Working sucks bad enough. People really don't need all this superfluous crap that nothing to do with anything.

[Batya33]

I would not want to work with someone who spent that amount of time ridiculing the boss - I would assume, even if not true, that that person was very insecure and immature. If you cannot stand working in a corporation so much why not work for yourself and let someone who does enjoy that sort of thing take your place?

 

It's sad that there's this perception that people "always" get promoted for the wrong reasons. Life isn't fair and sometimes promotions aren't fair/don't make much sense - but often it's because you don't have all the information about how that person contributed value and how they went the extra mile or hundreds of miles. And it doesn't always mean more $ because often promotions require additional advanced degrees which cost money and take time resulting in lost income.

 

When I refer to fit in it has nothing to do with the person's ethnic or religious background, gender, etc - it just means fitting in to the culture of the workplace - the working style, the work ethic, etc. I work well with my boss because I make it my business to learn his style of doing things and what makes him happy and to accommodate that. Has nothing to do with our race/religion/gender, etc.

[RufusDawes]

Have you seen the office ? My boss makes their boss look like a nobel prize winner. I spend most meetings trying not to burst into sporadic laughter. The greatest release is turning to a co worker and saying " we should film this" and the reply "we're sitting on a gold mine".

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=Batya33;1616400

 

I'm glad you said the following:

 

it just means fitting in to the culture of the workplace - the working style, the work ethic, etc. I work well with my boss because I make it my business to learn his style of doing things and what makes him happy and to accommodate that.

 

Here's why.

 

What started all this were comments such as the following from the young man who began this topic:

 

but if I do that, I'll be humiliated to the point where I'll commit suicide.

 

He was, of course, talking about such "menial" jobs as fast-food and so forth.

 

And he immediately began hearing the predictable "grow up," "life's not fair," "you have to pay your dues," "you have to work somewhere to get experience before you can get a 'real' job," and so forth.

 

What you're telling him is what I keep saying is THE most important aspect of having a job in this country: Compromise, conformity, and capitulation. And y'all want to disagree, insisting it's about "hard work" and "ethics" and so on. And then you turn right around and say that what matters more than anything else is succumbing to the "peer pressure" within the coroporate environment--that one "be nice" and "fit in" and "be a team player"!

 

And as I said at the first: HE already has THAT part of it firgured out! What he wants to know is WHY it's that way!

 

Why do so-called grown-ups, in a business setting, continue to perpetuate the same "peer pressure" that this young man is feeling? It's EXACTLY the same thing! The only difference, of course, is y'all will tell him it's "necessary" in order for him to earn money!

 

There's the bottom-line to it all. He knows it, you know it, and I know it. We all conform, capitulate, and compromise to the degree with which we're comfortable. It's that simple. And the degree to which we will practice those 3 C's is based on nothing more than our own individual sense of ethics, of what really matters within the realm of human relationships.

 

It comes down to What are you willing to do to make a buck!

 

Me? I won't tolerate a perceived sense of "superiority," period.

 

That sort of thing never occurs to others of you.

 

Some of y'all would quit in a minute if the air-conditioning went out. I wouldn't give it a second thought. And so forth.

 

But it's completely WRONG for y'all to preach to this young man, to tell him he's WRONG for yielding to HIS "peer pressure" when damned near every one of you here has gone to great lengths to tell ME how vitally important it is for survival in the "workplace."

 

Corporate America should be called "grown-up daycare."

[Batya33]

You misread my post- or read it to fit your view of what is unfair in the workplace. I think it is totally fair for an employer to expect employees to conform to the corporate culture - some cultures are stifling, some are flexible, most are in between. I don't think that means having to kowtow to everyone or treat your superiors as gods - if something is abusive, harassing or discriminatory it has no place in the corporate culture. But aside from that I don't see anything wrong with asking employees to conform to the corporate culture - they're not being forced to - they can go work somewhere else with a more suitable corporate culture. Many bosses do not expect their employees to work only in accordance with the boss's style- they welcome input and want people to be proactive in suggesting and implementing changes. but to me the default should be - learn what your boss likes as far as working style, conform, and once you've proven yourself some and paid your dues you can start making suggestions where improvement is needed or productivity/morale/efficiency could be improved.

 

Without a corporate structure, culture and hierarchy it would be hard to get projects done productively and efficiently - and if you can't get the work done, the company will suffer, lay offs, etc.

 

Where we also differ is that I have respect for people who work hard towards a goal of promotion and get promoted. I want to emulate them and conform to their styles because apparently it worked for them and it worked for the company's bottom line. I don't mind at all learning, taking direction, respecting rank and hierarchy.

 

When I am a manager I don't get caught up in the power - I like working with people - not having people work for me, I like teaching, training and mentoring but yes, when I ask for a project to be done a certain way by a certain time because that is my tried and true method, I am fine with input and suggestions with the understanding that I get the final word as manager. I am not arbitrary about it but the work needs to get done and in accordance with hierarchy in that case I have the final word.

[RelaxByWater84]

Srvcrow, everyone has someone over them. Even the "top dogs" have someone over them. They have the opinion of the people who they cater to over them. They need great public opinion or they will fail. You will always be working for someone.

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=Batya33;1616577

 

if something is abusive, harassing or discriminatory it has no place in the corporate culture.

 

Agreed. But do you not notice the not-so-subtle shift, not only in the discussion at this point, but in the reality of the thing? It's gone from a disucssion of "ethics" to the "legal" aspects. What I would say is that that's about as good as way any to explain it: We gave up on "ethics" in favor of "law."

 

I.E., as long as it's "legal," it's perfectally acceptable.

 

But aside from that I don't see anything wrong with asking employees to conform to the corporate culture - they're not being forced to - they can go work somewhere else with a more suitable corporate culture.

 

No, most can't. I'm talking about common ol' everyday folks, not those whose "careers" afford them the sort of luxury you're addressing.

 

Without a corporate structure, culture and hierarchy it would be hard to get projects done productively and efficiently

 

In my experience, the opposite is true. It's the old "too many chiefs and not enough Indians" thing.

 

and if you can't get the work done, the company will suffer, lay offs, etc.

 

Right. The "greater good," the "need of the many outweigh the good of the few." It always reduces to it's more important for a non-living "company" to survive than for the real-life people who work there to have any sense of meaning and dignity in their lives.

 

Where we also differ is that I have respect for people who work hard towards a goal of promotion and get promoted.

 

But how far are you willing to go to achieve that?

 

For example, I was once offered the "choice" of keeping my job or not living with the lady who is now my wife. I chose love. Apparently, I'm a moron because it's clear that in this country, money and jobs trump life every time.

 

I want to emulate them and conform to their styles because apparently it worked for them and it worked for the company's bottom line.

 

I'd rather be rewarded AND punished for being ME, not someone else.

 

When I am a manager I don't get caught up in the power

 

That's so very rare and you have all my respect in the world!

[ConfusedKitty]

Unless you win the lottery and are really smart with your money. Then you'd be really lucky, and I would have to /beg you for some $$$

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=CoffeeGirl84;1616586

 

Srvcrow

 

Please, it's just plain ol' "Randy."

 

everyone has someone over them.

 

Yep.

 

Even the "top dogs" have someone over them. They have the opinion of the people who they cater to over them. They need great public opinion or they will fail.

 

But isn't it interesting the way it works? Those at the very "top" (e.g., political types) worry about the "common" man while those at the very "top" of the business world care less what those same people think about anything.

 

I'll put it this way:

 

I live in a country, in a culture, in a society in which organized religion calls me a sinner, government calls me a taxpayer, businesses call me a consumer, and employers call me a human resource. I'm of value only to the degree that I grovel, work, pay taxes, and buy stuff. You'll have to forgive me if I find it difficult to have anything nice to say in these matters.

 

You will always be working for someone.

 

True enough. That doesn't mean they can lay claim to my very spirit and soul.

[RelaxByWater84]

Randy(sorry going by your SN)

I live in the same country and state you do. I am part of the "organized religion", I prefer Relationship. You will always be labeled others, part of life. All my life I've been labeled as the pastor's kid, big deal. I didn't fight it. Some things you just have to take. Like others telling you how to act. I figured its going to happen the rest of my life so I might as well get used to it.

 

Are you a person that just has this "screw the system" attitude???