Employers suck, and aren't "fair" at all.

[JadedStar]

I was left confused by an Indian fellow in customer support this morning.

Right now I'm sweating healthcare, because I'm 54.

 

I'm in the US, and wonder what happened to my country.

 

 

Man, this is one thing we resoundingly AGREE on. I also wonder what happened to our country. There are SOME things I can't be okay with.

[Iceman26]

 

I'm in the US, and wonder what happened to my country.

 

It was taken over by corporations.

 

I once worked for a company with the word "American" in its title.

 

They laid off a couple of hundred people and gave the jobs to people in India. Ironic, isn't it?

[RelaxByWater84]

It was taken over by corporations.

 

I once worked for a company with the word "American" in its title.

 

They laid off a couple of hundred people and gave the jobs to people in India. Ironic, isn't it?

 

It's pretty sad when all those jobs are sent overseas. I 'd take those jobs.

[Iceman26]

It's pretty sad when all those jobs are sent overseas. I 'd take those jobs.

 

Not only are they sent overseas, but you should have seen the lines of people apply for the jobs!

 

It was my first office job, making $11.95 an hour (I had no college degrees at the time) and there were people in India with Master's degrees lined up for job interviews for these types of positions.

 

Corporations don't care about people just profits. Corporations are the worst evil of capitalism.

[Dako]

My last job was restructured by the Malaysian majority shareholders, so I was let go after 10 years of good service. My previous job was 15 years at a defense company that was bought and liquidated to make a quick profit and eventually bacame a part of British Aerospace.

 

I'm sure some people feel sanguine about job exports, but if a fellow in Mumbai can do C++ for $3 an hour or a heart surgeon in Tijuana can offer a better deal, our country has a problem.

[RufusDawes]

Hey Jadestart. Seems you were a recruiter what is it like in terms of age descrimination for entry level corporate jobs.

 

I agree it sad that jobs get exported but I hear it will benefit us in the long run interms of our own standard of living, but I guess that dependant on how you value your standards and what you consider living. Anyway the USA is still the main export market for a lot of goods so I don't understand how it can be as bad as people make out. Maybe the EU will take ur place. I live in Australia and we've copped the same thing but our economy is smaller and different to yours but yeah, our unemployment rate is supposed to be at a historic low.. so maybe its good for us all, maybe not theory dictates that it is but who knows not me thats for sure.

 

Just throwing some ideas out there.

[RufusDawes]

Finding a graduate entry level job can be insanely competitive for most fields. I don't think a lot of people understand how difficult it is to find a position. I don't think its that people are envious of ceo's I think it is more that they are rightfully demanding a decent living in the face of absurd luxuries in the hands of those they see denying them that living. Just getting your foot in the door and out of fast food and into a 9-5 job with a lunch break, sick, holiday pay and a comfortable environment with a bit of stability can be challenging enough. And I think thats what a lot of people fail to realise, that there aren't really many jobs of that sort available.

 

I've got a friend whos 24 with a research degree in economics and 22 yo friend with a degree in electronic engineering and another with a degree in eduction and english. I am friends with these guys because we work in the same call centre.

 

I'm not saying people don't ever do well from these types of degrees i'm merely pointing out I know of a fair few who just can't get a heads up which is not a terrific sign.

 

.

[JadedStar]

I am not sure of what you are really asking me? What specifically do you mean what it is like for age discrimination in entry level jobs? ARe you asking if i saw a lot of that? If you are, the answer is no, I did not. I hired based on qualifications and how well a person interviewed. Period.

[RufusDawes]

I am not sure of what you are really asking me? What specifically do you mean what it is like for age discrimination in entry level jobs? ARe you asking if i saw a lot of that? If you are, the answer is no, I did not. I hired based on qualifications and how well a person interviewed. Period.

 

Thats exactly what I was asking you. Thanks.

[Iceman26]

 

yet to get a job he must, oh, pee in a bottle (good-bye presumption of innocence and hello presumption of guilt), agree to investigations to his credit history (like THAT matters), tell everyone if he's white, black, purple, male, female, or anywhere in between, and all the rest.

 

Randy

 

I agree with some of what you are saying but a drug screen? How about employer liability? I don't know about you but I wouldn't want someone with a drug habit working around heavy machinery or stealing from me to support their habit.

 

As far as checking credit history goes, I think it depends on the job. I wouldn't hire an accountant that couldn't manage his own money.

[JadedStar]

I agree with some of what you are saying but a drug screen? How about employer liability? I don't know about you but I wouldn't want someone with a drug habit working around heavy machinery or stealing from me to support their habit.

 

As far as checking credit history goes, I think it depends on the job. I wouldn't hire an accountant that couldn't manage his own money.

 

The only time that credit checks were performed were for banking positions at the previous company I recruited for.

[Iceman26]

The only time that credit checks were performed were for banking positions at the previous company I recruited for.

 

I had one performed at a job that had nothing to do with finance and actually had to write a letter explaining some discrepancies on my credit report.

[RelaxByWater84]

I had one performed at a job that had nothing to do with finance and actually had to write a letter explaining some discrepancies on my credit report.

 

Maybe the company you worked for had some people stealing from them and they wanted to be sure you had not stolen any money from your previous employer.

[Iceman26]

Maybe the company you worked for had some people stealing from them and they wanted to be sure you had not stolen any money from your previous employer.

 

Yeah, that is true. It didn't really bother me. I look at it this way: If I have nothing to hide so I have nothing to worry about.

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=Iceman26;1614307I

 

I agree with some of what you are saying but a drug screen? How about employer liability?

 

Understood about that. Think of it more as hyperbole to make a point. In this case, the most powerful man in the world (as they describe the president of the USA), does NOT have to "prove his innocence" as do common, everyday folks.

 

I'm old, and old-fashioned in many ways. "Leaders lead by example" predates me by probably hundreds of years. These days, the rules have been changed. I don't like it. Can't do anything about it. But I will, with every breath in my body and for the rest of my life, make sure all involved know what a damned disgrace the whole matter has become.

 

I don't know about you but I wouldn't want someone with a drug habit working around heavy machinery or stealing from me to support their habit.

 

I've worked around raging alcoholics all my life in just about every industry and at every level of corporate America you can imagine. But that's perfectly acceptable because alcohol is the great drug of choice in this country, right?

 

And frankly, the folks I've known who do like pot and even cocaine? Hell, they are the most reliable of all simply because they really want to work to have the money for their "habit"! It's only when they're tossed out into the street because of, as you say, potential employer liablity, that their lives go straight to hell.

 

Here's what fascinates me, personally, about this whole discussion. Most folks still defend with their every breath the right of someone who starts a company to make all the money they possibly can. Stop. There's no arguing that. Then along comes people like me and we start asking simple questions, such as, "How much is enough?"

 

For example: At what point did Sam Walton decide the whole world would simply come to a screeching halt until he put one of his stores in every town and every county and every corner of the world? At what point, and for what reasons, did ONE store stop being enough, then TWO, then THREE, and now thousands? That's a very simple, and very fair, question. The problem is no one likes to speak the answer.

 

Now, back preceding "stop."

 

We've all read "The Little Red Hen." We all agree if you put forth the work, the capital, and all the rest, you SHOULD "enjoy the fruits of your labor," that you actually "owe" no one else involved anything more than that "fair day's pay for a fair day's work." BUT throw in companies moving overseas? Ah, THEN the attitudes change to, "OMG! That's SO unfair?"

 

Why? Why does THAT become an "exception"? It's HIS company, right? He owes no one anything, right? So why does THAT so grate on people's nerves when the rest doesn't?

 

And as for that whole "work ethic" thing? BS! It was BS before I got on this planet and it's still BS and people who keep selling it should know better. Yes, it makes us all feel oh so warm and fuzzy to talk about how WE made because WE worked so hard and WE have that whole "work ethic" thing going for us blah blah blah.

 

Look, it's very, very simple:

 

Ethics (from link removed)

1. (used with a singular or plural verb) a system of moral principles: the ethics of a culture.

2. the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics.

3. moral principles, as of an individual: His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence.

4. (usually used with a singular verb) that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.

 

Now this from Bouvier Law Dictionary:

 

“CORPORATION. An aggregate corporation is an ideal body, created by law, composed of individuals united under a common name, the members of which succeed each other, so that the body continues the same, notwithstanding the changes of the individuals who compose it, which for certain purposes is considered as a natural person.”

 

And this:

 

“PERSON. This word is applied to men, women, and children, who are called natural persons…2. It is also used to denote a corporation which is an artificial person.”

 

Conlusion?

 

The idea that "ethics" exist within a business setting is one of the biggest lies and myths ever, ever dumped on people. And here's where the whole thing becomes a one-way street that I, for one, am damned sick and tired of being told I should "respect" and one for which I should "play by the rules" and the rest of that crap.

 

Only a living person like you and me can demonstrate "ethics." A "corporation" simply CAN NOT! It's isn't "real," it isn't "alive." It "exists" ONLY ON PAPER! And yet *I* am expected to conduct MYSELF "ethically" while dealing with what is, by logical conclusion, a sociopath?

 

“Sociopath: A person whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.”

 

Now, tell me I'm wrong. A man builds a company, makes tons of money, then moves it overseas, throwing all those into the street who helped him achieve his success. Is that "ethical"? No.

 

But people continue to preach to me that I should express "gratitude" that they "give" me a job, insist I give a two-weeks' notice when I quit because it's the "right" thing to do?

 

My time is for sale. Yes. So is my labor. That's the "business relationship." But anything beyond that is asking me to give them my very soul and that is NOT for sale at any price.

 

Oh, and please no part my wee-rant isn't directed at you, at all! It's not. It's just that I've been playing this silly game for way too long and it saddens me to see so many people going through life with eyes and ears wide shut, buying the conventional wisdom, repeating words that are nothing more than echoes of philosophies of convenience, all designed to make sure we continue to worship at the feet of what really is nothing more than a "ruling class" mentality.

 

I have to work; it's a necessary evil. But I don't have to like it one bit. And I damned sure refuse to sit through an interview and pretend like there's nothing else in life I'd like more than to a "valuable team member." The people who get hired these days are those who are best at giving expected responses to pre-determined questions. God forbid you speak from the heart. It scares the hell out of 'em. Employers do indeed want, and deserve, honest answers to honest questions. But honesy of character will get you tossed out the door quicker than having a pitchfork and pointy-tail!

 

Simply put: I don't suffer contradictions, double-standards, and double-speak well at all. And the insistence that there's something "more" I should "do" or "be" in order be the "ideal candidate" is insulting as hell!

 

Here's the classic example to how stupid that whole "interview process" really is. It's that famous question, "Where do you see yourself in five years?"

 

I answer that question this way every time:

 

"Sir/Ma'am, if you can promise me, guarantee me IN WRITING that this company as it exists right now will STILL be here, in this same facility five years from, under the SAME management--if you can guarantee me THAT, I'll sit here and tell you that there's nothing else in life more important to me than being a 'valuable part of your team."

 

I've not had one taker yet and that's because of how disenguous these people are. They're asking you and me to "promise," to "commit" to something over which you and I have no more control than do they over the company's future. And Americans except this BS under that infamous and pathetic "That's different."

 

And here's the end of it: No, it's NOT DIFFERENT! It's exactly the SAME! So if and when that demi-god being worshipped by way too many people in this country begins to treat me with a sense of "ethics," I'll return the favor. Until then, it's a strict business relationship in which nothing else matters except I do the work for the pay, period.

 

As far as checking credit history goes, I think it depends on the job. I wouldn't hire an accountant that couldn't manage his own money.

 

Around here in my little part of the world, that's become just part of the "normal hiring process" for just about every job there is.

 

So how long before we require finger-prints, maybe some handwriting analysis? Again, no breath-analyzers, just "drug" tests. Oh, those damned double-standards will be the death of me yet.

 

So you tell me at what point will Americans say "enough is enough"?

 

The answer is it will never, ever happen because people find it easier to obey, without question, than to challenge authority. Hell, any boob can go through life saying, "Yes, Sir, Yes, Sir." And then to have the nerve to turn around and try to convince ME that you "worked for it"? Give me a break!

[JadedStar]

It's just that I've been playing this silly game for way too long and it saddens me to see so many people going through life with eyes and ears wide shut, buying the conventional wisdom, repeating words that are nothing more than echoes of philosophies of convenience, all designed to make sure we continue to worship at the feet of what really is nothing more than a "ruling class" mentality.

 

You know what, I am very respectful of your plight and the bad experience you have had with your employment and with corporations, and I know it can happen to anyone, but I do take offense to what you said above. My eyes are NOT wide shut and I don't appreciate you telling me that what I post are mere echoes of "philosophy and convenience". I do not appreciate my intelligence being insulted by you insinuating I am just a machine for the man. You can rage against the machine all you want, but let's not go labeling people as "stupid" because their views do not match yours. I will match wits with anyone anyday of the week and do not appreciate this post that is basically calling me a mindless puppet. And yes i take it to be directed to me since I am one of the few who really spoke out in a different direction.

 

Everything you said above I basically countered in my former post so I am not going thru all of it again. I think I have made my points resoundingly clear.

 

The answer is it will never, ever happen because people find it easier to obey, without question, than to challenge authority. Hell, any boob can go through life saying, "Yes, Sir, Yes, Sir." And then to have the nerve to turn around and try to convince ME that you "worked for it"? Give me a break!

 

By the way, some of us find ways to make the system work to our advantage and in turn work to help the system. So yeah i WILL tell you i worked for everything I have. I am only responsible for my own success and as I work on it if a company benefits from it, that is just called a best case scenario all the way around. When an employer asks where do you see yourself in five years, they do not necessarily want to hear you say you will be with THEM for five years, they want to know the type of job you aspire to. It is a very valid question...some jobs you WANT someone who wants to do the same thing for a long time if it is a repetitive job. Others you would rather have a go getter who sees themselves progressing. It does not mean they plan to stay at the company that entire length of time, most cannot answer that specifically. Many people use companies as much as companies use them. I have seen young hotshots move into a company, get all the experience they can then bail to the next company who will give them as little as 1.00 more on the hour. That is their perogative. People tout about companies not showing loyalty - HA neither do most employees today. Generation X'ers have been known to leave a job to go to another one for a mere 25 cents raise on the hour. ten years ago that was my number one bane in hiring. turnover is EXPENSIVE so while generation x (and some of their older counterparts as well) were taking advantage of the more stable company and jumping ship for a couple of extra bucks, the cost of that turnover gradually increased to the point jobs started going overseas. Americans refuse to take any responsibility for any of this....people showing lack of loyalty helped create this environment. Now srvcrow you being an older gent probably DID want to show loyalty at one time, but you can thank your peers who did not for some of this. Everyone, People as in man or woman or People as in Corporations are out to look out for themselves. That is one commonality they share.

 

Simply put: I don't suffer contradictions, double-standards, and double-speak well at all. And the insistence that there's something "more" I should "do" or "be" in order be the "ideal candidate" is insulting as hell!

 

So...how do you get around the fact that you interviewed with five other people for the same job and they interviewd BETTER THAN YOU and have more experience, or more APPLICABLE experience? What is all of this screaming about? Is any employer, even a mom and pop shop, supposed to bow down and give you the job even if you do not have the best qualifications or interviewing skills?

 

The thing you should be screaming about is COMPETITION. Not just Corporations or Companies. Competition seems to be your enemy. Sorry there is usually several people applying for a job and the one who can prove to the best of their ability that they can do the best job wins! It is a fact life in EVERYTHIGN not just employment. The world gets more competitive everyday. Yeah competition is your demon here....corporations are byproducts of a competitive environment. Not the disease itself but the symptoms that manifest themselves. If we were not so competitive as human beings and not so greedy none of these things would exist to begin with. There are not many people alive in america who would not grab the brass ring if they can, some just don't want to put in more than a few hours a day to get it. SOme get lucky and have a combo of good luck and hard work behind them. Corporations are run by men and women and those women are also greedy and that is why we are all where we are today. There is no conspiracy from this dark monster called a corporation...we are all a victim of our own greed.

 

I do hate the outsourcing of jobs overseas but again, thank competition and your fellow competitive american peers. It is a competitive world and the margin on our products here is dropping so LOW to the point that we won't have anyplace to shop soon because no one will be able to make any money thereforeeee no one will be shopping. Companies are searching for the cheapest way to get the job done because a dvd player you once made 100 bucks on profit you now make $2 on per unit IF you are lucky.

 

Did you take Marketing or Economics? The law of supply and demand a foreign concept? A lot of this is commonsense as to WHY it is happening. The world has exploded with more people, and more people means more competition, everyone wants to make the most money that they can. Corporations are not driven by bricks and mortar they are driven by your fellow americans! People who scream about walmart - come on PROGRESS will never be stopped. Sure you want mom and pop businesses to landscape our country from now on but you know that will not happen anymore than we would continue to use an abacus into the millennium...I am sure that people were just as angry when the automobile replaced the horse and buggy - all that noise, pollution, petrol! But progress will continue just the same. It is human nature to constantly improve and compete. It is the bane of our existence as human beings.

[efftheworld]

You should put all of your thoughts about this subject in a blog or a book srvcrow.

 

Just a thought

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=JadedStar;1614582

 

You know what, I am very respectful of your plight and the bad experience you have had with your employment and with corporations, and I know it can happen to anyone,

 

I appreciate that. But the one you really need to tell that to is the young guy who started all this, and that's because he IS young and he needs to know that those whe can determine his fate in varying degrees, people like you who do the hiring, really do understand what it was like starting out BUT...and from there folks like you and me and everyone else can give him all those "real world" lectures.

 

but I do take offense to what you said above.

 

I regret that. But you really shouldn't take offense. The old Puritan preacher Jonathan Edwards once said, "I speak to none but the guilty." You should feel no more offense at my negative remarks about human resource-types, for example, than I take at the notion that blue-collar middle aged guys like me, without a college degree, are fit to do nothing but dig ditches and greet people at Wal-Mart. Besides, I've agreed with just about everything you've said. I just have been approaching it from a completely different angle, the one that places the synergy of employee and company ahead of the "competition" involved in trying to be the "ideal" candidate trying to beat out all the rest in order to get that "idea" job.

 

My eyes are NOT wide shut and I don't appreciate you telling me that what I post are mere echoes of "philosophy and convenience".

 

But they really are and I mean no offense by that whatsoever. My parents were die-hard depression-era, WWII "God bless America" and "the American dream is alive and well for everyone who'll work hard and pull up those boot-straps" and all the rest. It IS the heart of our "business" philosophy in this country! Hell, I spent the first twenty years of MY work life spreading the same gospel!

 

I do not appreciate my intelligence being insulted by you insinuating I am just a machine for the man.

 

There! That "feeling" you had when you wrote that? That's exactly what that young man was feeling when he started this thread. It's not pleasant at all, is it, to be "labeled" and "judged" by people who don't know you one bit but who--as human resource managers MUST do--pass judgments based on nothing more than words on a piece of paper or two (application and resume) and then pure hearsay testimony of third-party people (former employers and so forth). And passing judgment on anyone--especially young people--in a setting as predictably uncomfortable as an "interview" is hardly the best conditions to get a "real" feel for what that person is really like. You know that and so do I. The word is "intimidated." People ARE intimidated in job interviews! (Not me, of course, I got over it a long time ago and the irony is if you and I sat down face to face, we'd have a positively wonderful discussion about this. Like the lady who refused to hire me because sixteen of my previous employers had gone out of business. And because of that, she was "afraid" if she hired me, her company would also close. See? I'm an albatross! But we had a positively delightful chat about all this stuff!)

 

You can rage against the machine all you want, but let's not go labeling people as "stupid" because their views do not match yours.

 

I'll lighten up on the name-calling (again, however, you took personally what was never intended or implied that way) when "the machine" gets to hell over itself that we owe it our "humanity" when in return we are treated like "resources." So again, if YOU feel "insulted," give some long, serious consideration to that ONE phrase: "Human Resource." If THAT doesn't anger you, I don't know why anything I've said would have any effect on you whatsoever.

 

I will match wits with anyone

 

See? This is a "competition" to you. Trying to find the "best" candidate and so forth. I'm looking at it as a synergy, what can be done to ensure that employer and employer work TOGETHER for the good of all--above and beyond a damned "paycheck."

 

And yes i take it to be directed to me since I am one of the few who really spoke out in a different direction.

 

But your's is NOT a "different direction." Again, it's the same thing we've all been told by our parents, our teachers, society in general. And as folks enter the "real world," many are realizing it's a lie. That's all.

 

Yes. Hard work does matter. But at the end of the day, hard work might make you feel good about yourself. But you know better than most that what really counts is what you would call being a "team player." Now, you tell me what that means if it's not about the degree to which one is willing to compromise, capitulate, and conform? In short, if I told you my report cards said "does not get along well with others," you'd be hesitant to give me a chance, right?

 

That's a shame because all that really means is I've always been more focused and determined to actually DO something than merely "get along" with people. And surprisingly, I do indeed get along quite well with folks...except for lazy-a##ed co-workers and employers who can't, won't, and don't take the time to say, "Hey, thanks for a job well done. We appreciate it."

 

Instead, their attitude (and very often spoken words) are: "Here's the pay and here's the benefits. You don't like it. There's the door."

 

That's the voice of corporate America that most of us are familiar with. I'm simply saying the "machine" needs to place our "humanity" ahead of our value as a "resource."

 

I do apologize for any personal offense you may have taken. But at least you have a good idea of what some of the people who've interviewed me have gone through, right?

[Iceman26]

I'm in Human Resources (not a CEO or manager) and I'll tell you that even I can hardly stand it .

[srvcrow]

Iceman26;1614444

 

I look at it this way: If I have nothing to hide so I have nothing to worry about.

 

Here again, I really do understand your point. But (and to use a phrase I hadn't heard in years) sentiments such as this are why I rail against the "machine" so much. Our entire society and culture is, in theory" built on the idea of a "presumption of innocence." But we have "conditioned" people to think this way (that "since I have nothing to hide I don't mind these" things, and so forth) that I have to ask: At what point will you, personally, and Americans in general, draw a line in the sand and refuse to yield to such whimsical and arbitrary so-called authority figures?

 

What would happen if YOU demanded to see a potential employer's hiring record for the last ten years in order to determine if there were too many lay-offs, firings, and so forth? What do you think the response would be?

 

So why one "standard" for plain ol' you and me and another for a company? It's a fair question, don't you think?

[MandiHammond]

No one would hire me either except for fast food.

 

I worked at a Wendy's for three months then quit to work at CVS. They hired me in a heart beat. It was an easy job, too.

 

Fast food sucks but it gets you experience.

I wish you luck!

[srvcrow]

QUOTE=Iceman26;1614753

 

I'm in Human Resources (not a CEO or manager) and I'll tell you that even I can hardly stand it .

 

Iceman, I don't know how you and "jade" do it. I've "been there, done that" and never, ever again. It's clear I like people more than companies. And having MY decisions (made after talking to the person) over-ridden by another who does nothing but read words on paper and making a couple of phone calls is more than I can bear.

 

I will admit that way too many people looking for work really don't want to work at all; they just want a paycheck. But it's a shame that we all get branded that way--just as I regret that "jade" took personal offense where none was intended.

 

Or as one vice-president told me once: "Randy, just hire me some warm bodies."

 

I told him to do it himself!

[Iceman26]

QUOTE=Iceman26;1614753

 

It's clear I like people more than companies. And having MY decisions (made after talking to the person) over-ridden by another who does nothing but read words on paper and making a couple of phone calls is more than I can bear.

 

 

I like people more than companies too, which is why I don't care for it.

 

What I have learned from HR is that certain rules only apply to certain people, and that the CEO's and other top level people call the shots even if it is against company policy, which is what we are supposed to uphold, yet we take the blame when anything goes wrong.

 

As for me, I spend most of my time helping people with their company provided benefits. I am looking to move into my career field but it has been rough. I would never do this for a career if I could help it, but I have mouths to feed.

[JadedStar]

In short, if I told you my report cards said "does not get along well with others," you'd be hesitant to give me a chance, right?

 

You would be correct. If you told me that in an interview, in all liklihood i would not want to take the risk. It is all about hiring the person with the most talent and the least amount of risk. It is not corporations being demoralizing it is using commonsense.

 

And you are STILL telling me that my views are wrong, and they are no more wrong nor right then yours are. I find nothing incorrect in my post, if you don't agree with that its fine, but please know that my opinion is just as valid as yours.

 

And yes your comments WERE insulting because you basically called anyone who didn't agree with you dimwitted. I dont feel like going back and finding it but yes, you absolutely DID say that people who didn't agree were just "yes men". that is very insulting. You may not have gotten along well with others in school because you insist you are always right. It is not me being competitive it is me saying that you have no right to tell the people who don't agree with you that they are yes men with no mind of their own. Let's agree to disagree, but don't tell me I am wrong when I am stating opinions and opinions are never wrong if they are just that...opinions!

 

As for the "i have nothing to hide comment" i assume that was taken from another post as I dont recall having said that.

 

But thru it all i do not think you are a mean man, I think you are angry that you became a casualty of the system and I do understand that. It can happen to ANYBODY but it is the result of PEOPLE being uber competitive vs blaming it on a company in itself. I am 40 and becoming all too aware that it is a young person's world in the marketplace. They come in very go getting, easily plied, work for less...they are in higher demand but again it is commonsense when it comes to making the profit and loss statements go in the right direction. I may hate it that i lose my job to a 24 year old counterpart, but i understand the business decision that my pay may have reached such a high cap due to tenure that the only wise move is to replace me. Sure i will hate it, but i understand WHY it happens. And there are stakeholders, as in stock holders, memberes of the board who make and drive competitive decisions in the corporate world. IF corporations do not make strategic decisions the stock will plummet and even MORE people will be jobless.

 

I just think you are looking at this thru rose colored glasses if you think that a company should not be money driven. They won't be in business very long if they are not interested in driving up profits and down costs. Stockholders will pull out and they will go belly up.

[avman]

But remember, the party with the hot commodity is the one who calls the shots.

 

If you are Joe Average, with average skills that a million other people have - and you apply to company MegaMart who happens to have a job for someone with average skills, then you are screwed. And that is because they have the job, and lots of people want it. You have nothing unique to offer them over 100 other people who want the same job. That company is going to pick someone that:

1. Doesn't cost them much money
   
2. Works hard and
   
3. Won't cause them problems

If you come into an interview with an attitude and you tell the interviewer "you can't tell me what to do because I don't conform to stupid corporate rules" then they are simply going to pick someone else that doesn't act like that. And they'll do that because they can.

 

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Now lets say instead that a company has a need for a highly specialized person who knows about Whizzbang Methods. You happen to be one of only 10 people in the world who know all about Whizzbang. Well guess who's in the drivers seat now? You are! Because you have something unique and special that the company wants. So you could walk into an interview and pretty much demand anything you wanted (within certain reason) and they would be much more willing to put up with any attitude or eccentricities that you have. And that is because they can't just call in the next job applicant and get what they want.

 

----

 

This is the way the game is played. You can either let it beat you, or you can learn how to turn things to your own advantage. After all, most all of us are somewhere in the middle of the two extreme examples I listed above. We aren't SO unique that we can just walk in and demand the world, but we aren't totally average either. Everybody has some set of skills they can use to their advantage. And I mean EVERYBODY.

 

You need to learn what your unique skillset is and then go out and find employers who are looking for those skills. Then you have the advantage because you have something special to offer them over and above all the other candidates they might talk to. So you will stand out. And employers will respond very favorably to that.

 

I am not saying become a mindless corporate drone. You do not have to give up your individuality. I am saying play the game to your advantage.

 

If you are a non conformist that can just about convince anyone that your position is right by wearing them down until they cave - well then you'd probably be an excellent political activist, or a merger and acquisitions specialist, or perhaps a sales manager for a company looking to break into the market with a completely unique product like noone has ever seen before. But you'd probably make a lousy customer service representative.

 

See what I mean about playing the game to your advantage? Seek out those opportunities that play into your skillset and don't try to force fit yourself into trying to be someone you really aren't.