No closure/ NC/ how long for his call?

[Scout]

And you're right, I'm sure he is justifying and denying guilt thinking he told me so anyway. Thanks very much again!

 

Well, if he is actually thinking things like that, we don't know. But for the sake of argument, let's say he is. Then he would be wrong. He never told you that you two were "FWB." He never said when you contacted him again, "Hey, call me whenever you want some booty." He said all this recently and it was markedly different from any way he ever talked to you before, and I'm just as surprised as you were to hear those comments. Based on how you described him, he just didn't seem the type to make such commonplace, crass remarks. Too bad for him that he is capable of such dumb talk.

 

Yes, he said he didn't think he saw you as long-term, but since when are we supposed to associate such a comment with "but I'll sleep with you until I find someone else"? I felt his feelings could change as you two rebuilt your relationship, because people's feelings can and do change.

 

Jamie, don't for one moment feel you were "forewarned" by him and this is your fault. It isn't.

[jamiek]

He never told you that you two were "FWB." He never said when you contacted him again, "Hey, call me whenever you want some booty." He said all this recently and it was markedly different from any way he ever talked to you before, and I'm just as surprised as you were to hear those comments. Based on how you described him, he just didn't seem the type to make such commonplace, crass remarks

 

Scout - THANK YOU SO MUCh for that reassurance. I really needed to hear that. To be honest with you, David isn't at all the "crass" type. He's a type A, quiet (somewhat aloof) Lawyer. I don't get it. When he said the word "booty" he was saying it kind of funny- but nevertheless, he said what he said and meant it. Once I had said I hadn't done anything the night before he then said I could call him anytime to hang out (or if I wanted some "booty") - I think he meant both things and also that he was possibly trying to make sure he proposed it casually (to avoid any responsibility to me or to sound volnerable perhaps). He didn't say FWB flat out but he did say "we're not dating anymore, we're friends" I then said "we're friends - so we're friends who have sex?" and he said "kind of yeah". Gross! And yes very shocking coming from him for a number of reasons. I don't know why he acted that way or said those things - as you said they were "markedy different" than how he had ever spoken to me in the past and certainly from his behavior when with me (even recently). I never misreprsented him to you - he never did act that way. This is the part that is so bothersome and confusing. I guess only he really knows why and he won't share it with me. I guess I just need to take it at face value even though it makes no sense. I believe there is a chance it has to do w/ the passive-aggressive stuff (the need for control and their need to fight feeling dependant and emotional). But thank you again for pointing out that I wasn't forewarned b/c again, he probably thinks that way (justifies it all) and can use that to ignore my e-mail/feelings. But you validated for me that my e-mail didn't sound crazy. Scout, the fact that someone that I spent so much time with in my life, someone that seemed so into me and doting and caring and affectionate could then say those things and act that coldly is scary to me and very bothersome and upseting to say the least. The fact that he felt no interest or concern to even respond to my hurt e-mail (to even apologize) and that he could feel ok leaving things w/ me saying that I felt used adn more is hurtful to me too (but I didn't send the e-mail to get a response). After saying all that, when we walked out of the restaraunt he again put his arm around me (I removed it) and said he couldn't help it?? I know I shouldn't but I can't help to wonder how the e-mail affected him and/or his thoughts but it doesn't matter in the end I guess. Some men (even my therapist) said that men can act this way - they can be affectionate and loving but still know you're not the one but that is so hard for me to accept. I've never experienced it before - if someone isn't of great interest to me, I don't want to be wrapped around him all of the time and I don't bring up spending a holiday together two months away. To me actions and feelings and words should line up. I hoep so. I have a second date tonight w/ the nice guy (friends' friend) from last week.

 

Perhaps it is soon but he is nice and I deserve to be w/ soemone normal again for if nothing else a reality check (but I do like him so we'll see).

[Scout]

Once I had said I hadn't done anything the night before he then said I could call him anytime to hang out (or if I wanted some "booty") - I think he meant both things and also that he was possibly trying to make sure he proposed it casually (to avoid any responsibility to me or to sound volnerable perhaps). He didn't say FWB flat out but he did say "we're not dating anymore, we're friends"

 

Could you please clarify to me what exactly he did say? I was under the impression he flat-out called you friends with benefits, and that he said call him if you ever want some booty.

[Thunderforce]

O.M.G. the guy I'm dwelling over now is also a LAWYER... Kind of the same situation as yours but I was only dating two months.

Same story. He came on very strong, called it love at first sight. We saw eachother 3/ 4 times in the week. I met his fam. and his friends. All seemed going well. And suddenly he pulled back and didn't know what he wanted anymore... I got a "time will tell-line" but haven't heard from him anymore since a month. It was not my choice to go in NC. but well he doesn't leave me another choice.

 

Just thought it was funny that mine is actually a lawyer 2.

[jamiek]

Scout, essentially he did say that (but didn't use the term FWB). After I said I hadn't done anything the night before he said, and I quote, "Ya know you can call me if you want to hang out or for some booty". I playfully aid "Thanks David,. that's nice e of you (and he laughed). Then after he told me about his dates and asked me if I had any weird ones like this, I told him the conversation was weird because he was in my bed last week. And he said soon after that we can do this (have sex I guess and/or hang out) UNTIL one of us becomes serious with someone else. This is where my stomach felt sick and I asked "So what are we just wasting time together now David" and he said "Well, I wouldn't put it that way" and I asked how he would put it and I can't remember exactly what he said but it wasn't good. He said "we're not dating anymore, we're friends" and I said "so we're friends that have sex?" and he said "well yeah". He just didn't say the term "FWB" flat out. He reminded me of the fact that he told me we had no long-term potential at this point. I asked why and he said his thing about us being different and him not feeling the love like he did for his exes. I asked why he is always so wrapped around me and so forth and he said "because I love spending time with you and feel a connection w/ you and close". Soon after I said I couldn't see him anymore. Of course then when we left he put his arm around me and I moved it and said "stop, friend" and he laughed and said he couldn't help it, he always wants to touch me. Soon after he said he'd respect my decision and not call me and we went to the show.

[Scout]

I wonder what he feels are the differences between you two. Just out of idle curiosity. If he really feels this way, then that's that, but have you ever asked him?

[jamiek]

yes I did. He said "athletically and yuor house is messy and mine is clean" (no joke). I said "David, I have asked you so many times to go roller-blading or biking and you didn't want to, I love outdoor things" (he does a lot of yoga and classes like that and used to, no longer, but used to mountain bike alone - FAR), he said "well you've done yoga w/ me" - which I have (I don't know what that reply meant) and then I said "ok our apartments are different but that's what you're looking at?" (his is spotless - he has a cleaning lady and I don't and mine is messy but not dirty/gross). He then said "well, it's not just that, I didn't feel the love I felt for exes int eh past".. Whatc an you say to that I guess (a good reply would have been "and where are they now?"). I just fidn it weird that in the same conversation he says he loves spending time w/ me and feels a connection to me. That's usually how I feel when I "love" someonoe. So that's the story. So, in my last post I todl you exaclty the things she said - gross right? It was prety much what you thought - the FWB crap and tactless, cold stuff, no??

[Scout]

Do you know why he and his exes broke up? Did you two ever have conversations that might have revealed some of the reasons?

[jamiek]

yes but I'm not sure how much he left out. He didn't give much details and when things came up later (like why and who ended it) his story was different. I'm only his 5th gf. His 1st gf, when he was 28, was a one year relationship - he said she ended it w/ him (and that's why he was always the dumper after that) but then another time said it ended b/c he moved away (he said it very matter-of-factly/coldly). His 2nd gf was 3 yrs and he was early 30's and he just said she wanted to get married and he wasn't ready and she wasn't the one. The 3rd gf was only 4 months from J-Date and he said she was manic-depressive and not "giving" and would cry over anything. Then the 4th one was the biggy I guess - it ended last December and was for 9 mnths. He said she was really controling and inflexible and critical and they faught over it (and listed many bad traits). But then also said he thought he would marry her (??). She’s controlling like his mom. He first said he ended w/ her and then at a later date he said it was mutual and that he tried to get back w/ her and she wouldn’t. BTW: she called him Passive-aggressive also. He said it was hard and hurt (he got on anti-depressants again after it last Dec.). He often said “I could have never been married to her” and that it was “the wrong” relationship for him. He saw her a month ago at an engagement party of his cousins (she is his cousin’s fiance’s sister- was a set up thru them). He said she was w/ her bf holding hands and that it hurt (when I asked if it did. It’s been almost a year – doesn’t sound like he’s over it. When he slept over last weekend, he told me in the morning he had a bad dream and that his mother, Nicole (this ex), and I were in it – but I didn’t get details. I’m not sure he has a lot of relationship experience/knowledge to know certain things – like that feeling a connection and loving being w/ someone (basically feeling like someone is your best friend) is what it’s all about. For some reason, it’s hard for me to believe his feelings are so “not there” for me as he says. But I have to take it at face value and move on. Again, the way he spoke to me at lunch was cold, selfish, and hurtful (and totally inconsistent w/ his behaviors when w/ me).

I guess the fixing things around my house was out of guilt or something.

[Scout]

He sounds like he is just not ready to let go of old hurts and unrealistic expectations. I don't mean to discount whatever he went through with his mother, but many of us have had terrible childhoods and managed to move on, certainly by the time we are almost forty.

 

It is his choice to relive whatever conflict he had with his mother by dating women who are similar to her. It doesn't sound like you are. It could just be as simple as that.

 

I've heard that people who gravitate toward problematic relationships are often trying to "fix" childhood conflicts with a parent. When they find themselves with people they can't do this with...with people who are centered and stable...they don't feel the same emotions. They have programmed themselves to only really feel when conflict is there. They mistake pain and confusion as "love." Because they are the strongest emotions they are most familiar with.

 

It's rather sad, actually.

 

Of course, this is just my armchair analysis from my home office in Denver. I could be way off. But I suspect I'm probably not.

 

While it's unfortunate you had to slowly learn these things about him, now that you do, hopefully you see with some real clarity that his rejection of you is not so much about you as a person, as it is about his own issues. Just like the feelings he had for Nicole probably had little to do with her as a person, as it did about his own issues.

 

Resist the urge to tell him all this, by the way. Do you think his therapist probably hasn't pointed it out a thousand times? Some people just refuse to budge from their inner misery and self-absorption, and at the end of the day, you gave it a real shot. Doesn't seem to be something he's capable of doing in return. Sorry to him, in that case.

[Thunderforce]

Hey Scout that's a good analyse I think! I figured something like this out with my guy as well. His heart was not open because he was still full of his ex of half an year ago ... not in a loving way but in an angry way. My ex also has a controlling mother and he always persued women who take, take, take and never gave anything in return. When it turned out that I just want to stick with him he runnaway from me. Some day's I'm still angry at myself why I confronted him with the way I did. I kind of panicked when I felt he closed his heart for me and pulled back.

 

Well nothing you can do about it... he has to realise this himself. It's like telling someone to stop to drink. They only can stop drinking if they want it themselves.

 

really my story sounds so familiar with Jamiek ... only mine only lasted two months because I felt something was 'off'

[jamiek]

Scout, I have thought of thsoe things too. I wish I knew more about his old relationships but I would guess that thy had issues that he was "used to" and I fully agree that we have all had childhood issues and move on instead of reliving them and using them as a crutch. The fact that he has been in therpay for 11 yrs says something to me (that he almost likes his issues). You said " Do you think his therapist probably hasn't pointed it out a thousand times? Some people just refuse to budge from their inner misery and self-absorption" - ironically, I had asked him if he thought she was helping and he said just what you just did for the msot part; he said he thought he had defenses up against it - that he wasn't good with change (refusing to budge, self-obsorbed). You'd think though that our recent "conflicts" and drama would be attractive to hiim under these circumstance but not the case.

I haven't slept in 2 nights and have cried - I'm at work w/ eyes that weigh like 200 lbs each! And I have a date w/ the other guy (Jake) tonight.

[Scout]

I love the name Jake! Have a wonderful date tonight, and don't bring up David, PLEASE. Not that you would, but...well, you're a little vulnerable right now.

 

Anyway, it seems David has given you answers on almost every level...from his past relationships to his success (or lack thereof) with therapy. You now know what you need to know.

[Scout]

You'd think though that our recent "conflicts" and drama would be attractive to hiim under these circumstance but not the case.

 

Probably not enough rejection and pain for it to qualify for him! Again: sorry to him. What a sad way to view love.

[jamiek]

Every woman says that they love the name Jake, it's so funny!! Itold him that! I said it must be due to Sixteen Candles (possibly) where we all fell in love with Jake (the hotty) as teen-agers!!! Before David and I broke up we had dinner with Jake and my friend Sheryl (Jake and Sheryl are good friends). Jake knows that David and I are over but there's no way I'd bring him up. I didn't even tell Sheryl the David stuff to make sure it didn't get back to Jake. But I must confess, that at lunch w/ David Sunday, after all of the cold/hurtful things he said came out of him, I (immaturely) told him that I had gone out w/ Jake! He asked "Do you like him?" and I said that he is nice. David then said he didn't want to get in the way of something that is "clearly" going somewhere?? I said "clearly going somewhere??, we've gone out once/twice?" It seemed he may have been fishing to know if I was into Jake. WHATEVER!! I know it was childish of me. I'll let you know how the date goes (I hope I can keep my eyes open).

[moonbeam111]

Good grief! At least you guys take some responsibility for what happened and please stop bashing the guy for being honest. It takes two to tango and it's too late to say "I was blind, or better yet - mommy, a bad guy did it to me!"

 

Jamie, one of the first posts breaking up w/ me he was rubbing my arm with the back of his fingers and then tried to kiss me on the mouth (I turned away). He did say he still wanted to see "where it goes" but I said I didn't know how to go backwards and if so there would be no sex - he said he knew that. So, I never really answered whether I would agree to still see him. He said "this is hard for both of us" it was such a shock.>>

 

Right there he told you that he would like to continue having sex with you if you allow it... being FWB because he "would like to see where it goes" after clearly stating that you have no future with him!!!!

 

He was very consistent. And he did it again! Exactly with the same arguments and the same outcome! Why oh why did you still go to the concert with him? Why oh why did you hug him warmly? Sent nice emails? Stil pining for him after he expressed his view of you as a booty call?

 

For all that mind reading and taming your temper - bravo! Great job!

Scout: >

 

For crying out loud! The only reason I started posting in this very thread was that I was amazed at this advice and did not want to see another woman doubting herself and being hurt again! How about pride being Normal expectations? How about pride preventing from getting STD from "blindly" walking in the FWB trap?

 

I am sorry that you had to learn this lesson twice Jamie. Hopefully, "PRIDE" will save you from hurting again... It's okay to have your pride to stick with when "No" actually means "No".

[caliboy_2007]

Jamie,

2 things.

 

First:

You DID NOT, DID NOT do anything to him to deserve that... you do NOT deserve that. There are many things in life that happen to us that we never have to ask for what we did to deserve them. They just happen. what it DID DO for you (you won't understand it now as you are hurt) was to make your heart even bigger and better. To me, Love is a gift that we give. Not everybody deserves it. He didn't and this is something he lost, something GOOD that he lost.

 

Second:

Nobody has the power to hurt YOU. You just learnt a lesson and will move on just fine. Sure, it will be hard as us human beings tend to attach ourselves to others and when they are gone, their place for a while is empty but don't worry. Remember? NOW you KNOW that he wasn't aware of what he had, you made all efforts to stay with him and work with him, didn't work, so you move on. You gave him the great gift of LOVE, he didn't take it for 1 million and one reason, that's OK. This love comes back and heals your heart even better.

 

Jamie,

I am a broken heart myself, and that from being a NICE guy... and still waiting for her to make her decision but like I said, love is a gift with give... not everybody deserves it.

 

You have a great soul.

 

Take care

I wish you all the best

[jamiek]

Right there he told you that he would like to continue having sex with you if you allow it... being FWB because he "would like to see where it goes" after clearly stating that you have no future with him!!!!

 

Moonbeam - that is not true. Right there he DID NOT state that we had no future (that night he broke-up with me above). He never said that - he simply said he wasn't "prepared" for a committed relationship but he'd like to still see each other to see where it might go if we took it slow. So that is not correct. If he had said that that night there would have been no further threads on here between Scout and I about it b/c it would have been my clear answer. The problem was that he didn't say that - so I ddin't undersatnd why he broke up with me. I hate to sound offended, but I am a bit. He never said it then. He actually said the opposite (that he'd be ok with no sex and knew I wouldn't if he was seeing others and still would want to see me b/c he enjoyed spending time w/ me and felt a connection). And you say "for god sakes at least the guy was hoenst" but that's not so much true either. When we had lunch one month after the break-up that is when he said the no long-term potential thing (never before then). And I was foolish for letting anything happen after that but I don't think he deserves a defense on here - I gave him his remote back and he bgean to kiss me. I shouldn't have but did kiss him back. He then spent the next 9 hours w/ me (no sex) at his proposal and then another affectionate date after befoe this past Sunday). Although I let it happen, it seems to me that first of all if he was a stand-up kind of guy concerned about my feelings at all he should have cared enough to take the remote and leave that first day ( not kiss me and stay around for 9 hours and fix things arournd my place. Also, he may have told me that at lunch a few weeks ago about the no long-term potential(and I shouldn't have seen him again, you're right) but that still doesn't make him a "give the guy a break for being honest" type a guy after he spoke to me in the insensitive, cold, hurttful way the did the other day (again after two dates from the break-up of overly-affectionate, x-mas inviting time). If you care about someone (regardless of whether you'll marry them) you don't talk to them and treat them that way (especially after sleeping together the week before and after 6 months together). Things could have been said much differently. His actions when together after that did not match his words (asking to spend x-mas w/me 2 months in advance, wrapping himself around me in the theater line and in the movie and any other time he was near me - extremely affectionate; non-sexually). He knew I wasn't just looking for sex, that alone should give him reason (if he cared about me) to walk away and not mess w/ me anymore in the ways he did. I would hope he would have at least acted as a friend to me.

My date tonight w/ Jake was great. He's so nice. David was cheap (no other way of saying it). This guy took me to a movie, then to dinner at a very ncie restaraunt where he made reservations (and ordered a $60 bottle of wine because he remembered I liked it from our last wine tasting date) and told me he couldn't wait to see me again at the end of the night. He said he didn't think David was right for me (from when we all had dinner together 2 months ago) and he knew then he'd ask me out when it was over. But I am still very hurt and confused and upset over David and his inconsistencies. Again, I just never got the vibe he didn't see me as long-term potential at all. I feel lied to for months now and it hurts. I feel like the guy I cared for and thought truly cared for me back could care less (is just on match ready for his next and totaly disregarded an e-mail from me saying I felt hurt and used by him). I started to cry over him just thinking about him in the theatre tonight. Fortunately, afterwards at dinner I really enjoyed being w/ Jake.

[Ellie2006]

JamieK,

I am glad that you've found someone so nice, someone you enjoy being with!

Best wishes to you ...

[jamiek]

Ellie2006 - thank you!!! My date last night was sooo sweet. Thanks again. Best wishes to you.

[Scout]

Well, Moonbeam, I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure if you understood where I was originally coming from when I talked to Jamie about pride. In the beginning of learning about her situation, my impression was she was left in the dark on a few things, she still really cared about him, and was not happy with how things ended. She missed him and wasn't entirely sure of the reasons for their break up. Sometimes, when you care about someone, you have to take a chance. That's what I think anyway. Personally, I think too many of us make our decisions and live our life based on pride-driven fears...fear of getting rebuffed, rejected, etc.

 

With my boyfriend, when we broke up, I took a chance at initiating a reconcilation. I honestly didn't think it would work out. But I didn't want to live with the uncertainty that I didn't try to make an effort to see where he was coming from, to make amends for what I contributed to our break up, and so on. I was surprised we actually got back together as a result of my efforts, but even if we hadn't, I know I wouldn't have regretted trying.

 

And "trying" is not the same as groveling or being a doormat. Sometimes, it takes more courage to put yourself out there instead of nursing hurts and feelings of longing. I do think Jamie will be hurt for a little bit over this, but she has a lot more insight into David than she did before, and she's not going to be asking herself for months, maybe years to come, "What if?"

[Biffy]

Very well said Scout, I think you're spot on. If after some introspection you decide that you genuinely still LOVE the person - that you're sure that what you're feeling isn't desperation then why not give it one last try at reconciling?

 

It's better to regret something you have done that something you didn't do.

[jamiek]

I agree. What happened and what I heard from him hurt but it’s better than being dumped out of nowhere and not knowing why. I feel like people owe it to someone they’ve been involved with to be honest and give them some sense of honesty and respect. At least someone who is mature, considerate, and has some integrity would do so, I believe.

Scout you said: “Yes, he said he didn't think he saw you as long-term, but since when are we supposed to associate such a comment with "but I'll sleep with you until I find someone else"?. I agree wit this and appreciate you saying it. Also, just because someone is honest about something doesn’t give them the license to then act inconsiderately and selfishly and trample over the feelings of someone who cared about them. David knew that I was looking for more than just a sexual relationship and that I cared about him but he was only looking out for his own needs/wants. I do take responsibility as well. I should have just ended it the day he said the no long-term thing (and I planned to until he started kissing me and spent the next 9 hours with me with no sex involved and then asked me to get together again). I don’t like the mixed messages afterwards. I didn’t confront him on dates after he said that because I wanted to give him some breathing room in case those feelings (no long-term potential) had more to do with him feeling too much pressure previously in the relationship (because I just didn’t get the vibe when with him that he truly felt this way and I’m usually very intuitive with these things). I was wrong but I learned good lessons form this experience.

[Scout]

Jamie, people's feelings can and do change. What someone says one minute is not necessarily how they will feel tomorrow. In David's case, you took note of his comments about not seeing things long-term, but because his actions sent different messages and because in the previous time you were together as boyfriend and girlfriend you felt there was real love there, you gave him the benefit of the doubt for a little while longer.

 

Ok, so that generosity and risk didn't pan out in a reconcilation with David. But those traits will come in real handy in a future relationship with someone who is likewise inclined to give those same gifts.

[jamiek]

Thanks. But I have one question that is really bothering me. A few people have said that "men do this", they can act that affectionate, will keep seeing you until they meet someone else and so forth (that acting that affectionate doesn't mean anything) I truly hope so much that is not necessarily true and that we do not have to really accept this as a fact (and one that is "ok" and just accepted at that). It really bothers me. So, we can't even really go by their actions (extreme affection, helping around my place etc)? I still don't understand all of the wanting to help around my place. I feel like (and hope) that this is only true for immature and selfish men.