Labels and Hatred Among Ourselves

[Jinx]

As of the past months I've been trying to expand my horizons a bit and visit what I can in regards to the GLBT community. Events, Gay Friendly Areas, Businesses, etc... just to see all the sights I suppose yet the sights haven't been all that beautiful and words are quite bitter.

 

While it may of just been the places and people I've happened to mingle with, I'm surprised by the amount of prejudice we have in our own gay community. I hear so many preaching about "Let there be no labels, no stereotypes, no prejudice, love us for who we are not misguided outdated misconceptions", but to simply turn around and do just that to a fellow member of the * * * * * community.

 

Just the other day, I was trying to converse with a group of Lesbians whom seemed relatively nice upon meeting but they did seem to act strange about assuring themselves that I was a lesbian. Once this was cleared it was okay. By the end of the conversation they were verbally attacking Bisexuals among themselves to the point I excused myself. I have good friends that are Bisexual and certain comments I found unacceptable. They used, "confused, unfaithful, pretending" just to name a couple to sum it up. They insisted they never would date Bisexuals because they cannot make up their minds, they can never be faithful, they pretend to attract male attention.

 

Then much earlier in my explorations I happened accross a cafe where a gay man and woman were having a heated debate about whether it was appropriate to have the G or the L first in the GLBT/LGBT summary. One insisted that Gay always comes first that is how it was made, the other yelled and stated it was chauvinistic behavior and patriarchy concepts that exists in men gay or straight that made it so. They went on spewing their hate for one another for however long. I've never heard anyone though saying the Bisexuals or Trans portion don't have enough representation in this nutshell abbreviation though.

 

Speaking of the Trans portion, we are homophobic among ourselves, or transphobic. I guess I've come to expect certain women to act homophobic around me and seem paranoid that I am going to "seduce" her to my lesbian ways but I've seen and I've heard gays and lesbians go out and act obnoxious or all out exclude someone because they are MTF or FTM and the like. I don't understand that, I know we have it bad sometimes, but it seems like they've got to have it worst when some of the gay community won't even have open arms about the issue.

 

Another time outside of a cafe setting and I don't know if the group was gay or not, but they were attacking a pair, a woman of whom I supposed to be Latin descent and an African American woman. They said it was okay to be gay, but they were crossing the "borders" and it was unacceptable even if they are lesbians. I thought we valued ourselves on the "Love is Blind" line, no?

 

I've also heard snide remarks regarding Gay Republicans and Christians as being traitors to the community, that they don't belong and should go and be repressed "Heterosexuals" that our gay world doesn't need people like them to further corrupt and help lose what rights we already have. I didn't understand this logic, I always thought the gay community was extremely liberal and just because you were gay didn't mean you HAD to have certain outlined particular Politcal and Religious beliefs.

 

Now, the woman I am with, we are several years apart, yes we look like the fairly odd couple I suppose walking around together but people in these places with almost entirely Gay Clintele, when we walk in and find out that we're not related, we're not just friendly friends, they give us a look like we're a two headed monster or something. Even before this relationship I suppose for lack of better phrasing was "finalized" they were giving us looks and asking stupid questions. I'm glad to know age is such as factor, too.

 

Maybe I look into things, listen and observe too much to conversations I shouldn't stick my nose (or ears) into but so far I've found the gays at least on a state level to be extremely hypocritical. They preach love and tolerance to the straight portion, and then they turn around and give a racist, sexist, age based, even homophobic comments among a hundred other discriminating categories to their own.

 

Personally, I wonder how we're going to get anything accomplished about hatred if our own can't even get their acts together and throw away extreme prejudice. With what I hear, I'm surprised there aren't more reports of Gay Hate Crimes and I'm not talking about ones done by Heterosexuals either, but Homosexual to Homosexual.

 

This I suppose could be considered a rant, but after seeing and hearing it all I just felt inclined to write about the personal observations, and the fact I'm a tad bothered by it all.

[rosalyn1223]

yea you maake a very good point. and i dont think gays/lesbians/bis are going to corrupt any body i think the govenment had done enough of that on their own. and yea i agree i wonder how people are going accept this when the people who are trying to get them to understand can't even understand themselves.

[LostInMyThoughts]

You make great points, but I think it's okay for people to have opinions about others.

 

I know many gay men who dislike very effeminate men, or "queens" as they like to call them.

 

I personally don't like people of my race that make me look bad, and I know other people who are the same way.

 

We are all going to discriminate in some way or form, and I htink thats normal and healthy.

 

It becomes a problem those lesbians turned around and said "Bisexuals shouldn't be allowed to get married."

[phantomwolff85]

I don't know about healthy, but I think it's definitely normal. I know I wouldn't date some bisexual, if i were dating, unless I didn't know they were bisexual and then became attracted to them and they later told me they were bisexual. I wouldn't date an FTM either. I feel that we all have choice and the right to have opinions.

[UT]

First I have to say. Nice to see you back here jinx. It's been a long time.

 

You make very good points. Excellent points actually and some of this I've encounters this in a way. Not personally but heard about it and talked about it. Some gay people only think that bisexuality is a stage in becoming gay. I think that's just stupid. I mean, bisexuality is in a way the absolute perfection of love. They don't discriminate and gender. Just because many gay people experience a state where they don't know it they are straight or gay and can easily identify as bisexual.

 

I personally think we should stick to GLBT for several reasons this is what we've always used and people recognise it. Changing could cause confusion and that's not good (on a side note GLBT, the abbreviation sounds like a disease) GLBT stand for Gay Lesbian Bi and Trans. Gay and Lesbian is the same thing. If you're gay, you can be lesbian as well. Gay is only another word for homosexual. So, gay is the headline thing and lesbian is a subgroup. Bisexual is something else just as Trans. I think the L is unnecessary but still not. It's needed because you often associate gay with male homosexual.

 

Transgendered are unfortunately in a bad position when it comes to any group or sub group. Many are afraid of what they don't know. It's like prejudice among heterosexuals. I think it's sad that they are being mistreated by everyone. I think in gay debates we should talk more about the T. It's very important to talk about because they are also a minority and have the same rights as gay and straight people do. Although it doesn't classify as sexuality but as a birth defect and I think that makes them even more entitles to rights as everyone else. They can truly not help it.

 

The people you were with must be a little racist... they are horrible people and I don't understand how people can be traitors. It might be called the "gay community" but we're not really a community. Politics have nothing to do with sexuality. Republicans just happens to have opinions not usually shared with gay people. We are not very organised and I like it this way. When we ask to be treated equally it VERY important that we DO NOT turn things around and make straight people the subject of abuse or bad treatment. We can't see straight people as enemies.. We ALL, straight, gay, bi, Trans everyone have to be able to co-exist. We can't start thinking we're better than anyone else. Then there will be problems. I will go against any gay person who thinks straight people are less worth or should be discriminated against.

[UT]

Earlier I never thought I couldn't fall in love with someone who wasn't just gay. Now, my boyfriend is an FtM and a beautiful guy he is too. He's the most wonderful person in the world and hopefull I'll have him forever(death is not a factor, I'll still love him).

 

Dicrimination isn't heathy but it can't be avoided. Affirmative action is someone is discrimination to the other.

[Deviant_Kate]

Gay and Lesbian is the same thing. If you're gay, you can be lesbian as well. Gay is only another word for homosexual. So, gay is the headline thing and lesbian is a subgroup.

 

You're right - gay isn't strictly male. I prefer to call myself gay instead of lesbian.

[northernlights]

I never understand why some gay people have a thing against bisexuals. I know this has been talked about by a lot of people in the gay community one time or another, some supporting it and some against it, but I just don't see why! Gay people already have an "unconventional" sexual preference, and bisexuals do too, so I would think that they would understand each other. Plus, doesn't the popular "love is love is love" saying apply to all types of love, gay, straight, or bi?

 

I've definitely noticed a fear of bisexuals in the gay community--usually it has to do with worrying that the bisexual partner will cheat with someone of the opposite gender than his/her current partner, because bisexuals will "never be satisfied." But I think it's just as easy for a gay or straight person to cheat too because their present relationship doesn't satisfy them!

 

Is being prejudiced/stereotyping something part of human nature? I'm a Psych major and studied a semester on group dynamics, and apparently we as humans stereotype to survive, feel better about ourselves, and live saner lives. Doesn't make it right, but it's like a survival instinct thing. But I just think it's so sad that a group so used to being prejudiced against and stereotyped can turn around and do the same to another.

[nottoogreen]

Hi jinx,

 

This is sad but common behaviour. Society puts boundaries about groups of people and friction develops between groups for reasons a simple as lack of communication and "global" understanding. Make a group of lawyers communicate with a group of engineers. Think about religious groups.

 

Within groups is lots of peer-pressure to keep everyone in line. Most people are group oriented and conform.

 

Do not let it bother and pressure you, be yourself and follow your senses and feelings. If a group gives you a hard time, drop it, not yourself.

 

I've definitely noticed a fear of bisexuals in the gay community...

It's along the same lines of behaviour persuant to set patterns. To a straight gay you are supposed to be straight-gay.

 

Don' let it bother you. Experimenting with your sexuality is interesting and girls may be more rewarding than guys. I would have no problem with my daughters being with girls, at least to learn. To me it seems to be a much better prospect than getting used and hurt by guys. Keep an open mind and do not become hard-core anything as oneday you may want a family and the right guy may come along.

 

My gf is bi-curious, she was pretty excited about the experience of a girl going down on her, got off like a rocket.

[FoxLocke]

I never got the whole Bisexual coup either. I would date someone who was bi, provided I was certain that he would be faithful to me. Now, I would never date someone who was merely bicurious. Someone bicurious is who you have to worry about. They just want to indulge their same sex fantasy and then POOF they're married with children, and you have the broken heart...and trust issues about Bisexual people.

That is what I think happened to most of those bitter types. They got crushed by a bicurious person.

 

As far as the black and latino woman go that really makes me mad. I come from a mixed background, and gays should be the LAST people that would ever be prejudiced and opposed to inter-ethnic relationships. I would expect to see a jew for hitler, or a black KKK member, before I saw a gay racist. Sadly, they exist, and when gay people get full equal rights expect the racists in that community to rear their ugly heads.

 

As it is many gays are just as screwed up as the rest of society. Remember, many of us do come from racist/homophobic backgrounds and those attitudes are bound to rub off.

[FoxLocke]

How so? for me There is a difference between being truly bisexual and merely bicurious. A bisexual person is equally attracted to both sexes, thereforeeee, he or she can be in a committed relationship with one or the other. I wouldn't worry about being involved with someone openly bi unless they were a player...To me they love both sexes but just happen to be committed to me at the sametime. Doesn't stop them from having opposite sex attraction, they are just committed to one person. Like I might be attracted to other people while I am committed to someone. It does not mean I am going to indulge my fantasy. Anyone is capable of cheating...

 

Someone bicurious is, primarily, in it just to see what it is like to be with the same gender, more than likely(or they are figuring out if they prefer to be with the same gender). That is the kind of person I would not want to date seriously...I've heard the horror stories about being serious with someone bicurious...That is why alot of the lesbians Jinx is referring to, probably, turned bitter against bisexual people.

 

Would I date someone bisexual? Yes

Would I date someone bicurious? probably not

 

I come to my decision based on an experience with a bicurious person.

So I would never date a guy that wasn't gay or bisexual.

[UT]

That is what I think happened to most of those bitter types. They got crushed by a bicurious person.

 

 

I’m afraid I disagree. Judging from their actions and that they were with Jinx (who is in collage) I think they are the type that goes to bars and have no problems enjoying casual sex. They are probably not looking for a relationship, nothing serious and thus they wouldn’t get hurt. They’re young, probably from stable backgrounds and they just want to enjoy being young. But thn again I can be totally wrong hehe.

 

 

Sadly, they exist, and when gay people get full equal rights expect the racists in that community to rear their ugly heads.

 

As it is many gays are just as screwed up as the rest of society. Remember, many of us do come from racist/homophobic backgrounds and those attitudes are bound to rub off.

 

What many seem to forget when it comes to gay people is that homosexuality is only a sexuality. We are in some cases, even by ourselves like you and me, FOX, who think that equality and respect is important and that race doesn’t matter, glorify ourselves. We think that gay people couldn’t do that (although we know it isn’t so). We’re a minority ourselves. But it is only a sexuality and has very little or no influence on other things like political ideology or race. Whether I prefer to date a man or a woman has nothing to do with if I like black people or not. Although one would think we’d know better and be more accepting.

 

for me There is a difference between being truly bisexual and merely bicurious. A bisexual person is equally attracted to both sexes, thereforeeee, he or she can be in a committed relationship with one or the other

 

There are a lot more people claiming to be bisexual than being truly bisexual. Being bisexual isn’t being equally attracted to both sexes, but being able to fall in love with both men and women, being attracted to both males and females. Most bisexuals have one preference like. They are more attcated to one sex than the other. Only a very small portion of those who identify as bisexual are truly bisexual (likes both equally as much).

 

And being bicurious doesn’t mean that the person can’t be faithful. They are only curious. You can be in a relationship and wondering how something else is but it doesn’t mean you can’t keep to the person you have. We are not helpless victims to our lusts. Our thoughts influence our feelings strongly and we can control our thoughts.

 

I come to my decision based on an experience with a bicurious person.

 

It is for this reason we have prejudice. Be base our decisions on to little. From one person you have decided that no bi-curious person is trustworthy. It’s like… one black person is just mean and a total * * *, then all of them are. Fear takes control. You’re afraid that if you date a bi-curious person you might be hurt (it’s like that when dating a bisexual person as well or a gay person) Fear creates prejudice too, not only ignorance.

 

“Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -- Yoda

[nottoogreen]

Hi FoxLocke,

 

I accept your arguments, my gf would always be with a guy, and she broke a girls heart while split up with me a while ago.

 

UT's arguments IMHO have merrit too. All depends on the individual.

 

Thank you for your explanation and have deleted my post with apologies.

[FoxLocke]

 

 

I'm afraid I disagree. Judging from their actions and that they were with Jinx (who is in collage) I think they are the type that goes to bars and have no problems enjoying casual sex. They are probably not looking for a relationship, nothing serious and thus they wouldn't get hurt. They're young, probably from stable backgrounds and they just want to enjoy being young. But thn again I can be totally wrong hehe.

 

Oh I totally agree! I meant the type of person who, somewhere down the line, has been hurt by someone and take it out on everyone of that particular persuasion.

 

 

 

 

What many seem to forget when it comes to gay people is that homosexuality is only a sexuality. We are in some cases, even by ourselves like you and me, FOX, who think that equality and respect is important and that race doesn't matter, glorify ourselves. We think that gay people couldn't do that (although we know it isn't so). We're a minority ourselves. But it is only a sexuality and has very little or no influence on other things like political ideology or race. Whether I prefer to date a man or a woman has nothing to do with if I like black people or not. Although one would think we'd know better and be more accepting.

 

I agree. While most gay people will learn from sins of the past and be tolerant to others there will be those who, once gays garner full equality, will form their little groups and be discriminatory of others. Because chances are human beings will ALWAYS find a reason to be anti-something...

I don't mean to be Donnie Downer but that just seems to be the way of the world. But I will be Pollyanna and HOPE that will not come to pass. I hope that the majority of gays and lesbians reach a higher stage of tolerance(in fact I hope straight people do too!).

 

 

 

 

It is for this reason we have prejudice. Be base our decisions on to little. From one person you have decided that no bi-curious person is trustworthy. It's like… one black person is just mean and a total * * *, then all of them are. Fear takes control. You're afraid that if you date a bi-curious person you might be hurt (it's like that when dating a bisexual person as well or a gay person) Fear creates prejudice too, not only ignorance.

 

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." -- Yoda

 

I love Star Wars!

 

 

I agree for the most part. Very well put UT.

[UT]

Oh I totally agree! I meant the type of person who, somewhere down the line, has been hurt by someone and take it out on everyone of that particular persuasion.

 

I love Star Wars!

 

 

I agree for the most part. Very well put UT.

 

Thank you and Sorry about the misunderstanding in the first part. And Yes, Star Wars rule lol.