Women: Time to build your flirting skills.

[itsallgrand]

I would say that women are surprisingly unempathic in this regard, in that they don't seem to care about the guys feelings in the matter. All they want is to 'test' the man.

 

I'm curious to hear more about this.

Unempathetic towards guys feelings in which matter; exactly?

Which feelings?

Can you be more specific?

 

The q is not just for corvidae; but anyone who feels that way and has something to say.

I think there's an opportunity for some decent dialogue here. God knows I'm not perfect and still have a lot to learn - like most of us.

 

Yet the rants are a waste of space. There should be special "I hate women" "I hate men" threads for people to vent on or something.

[heythere1234]

Good luck with that corvida and steelwool, your buddies will be out on dates, and you'll have your pride to console you!

[galaxy71]

Look, women aren't going to ask guys out in large numbers any time soon. Women have been culturally conditioned to expect guys to show interest in them first for eons now. Whether you like it or not, that is the way women are. It is what it is.

 

I just don't know whether complaining about how women never ask guys out will do anyone any good.

 

However, I get the feeling that we might be a little off-topic here. The topic line was how women should improve their flirting skills. Instead of discussing how women can improve their flirting skills, there is this debate about why women won't directly ask guys out. I consider flirting to be something like teasing, body-contact, playful banter, and compliment.

Being blunt like asking someone out is to direct to be considered flirting.

 

This leads to my complaint. A lot of women don't know how to flirt. Some women do not act happy or excited around a guy they are interested in. Instead of acting warm and playful, a lot of women act stiff and aloof around guys they are interested in. I've seen a lot of cute girls get more attention from guys than drop dead gorgeous girls, because the cute girls knew how to flirt with guys. Flirting is a social skill that should be learned and improved upon.

[heythere1234]

Well usually I will wait until some form of contact has been initiated by the guy. That would give me an opening to guage what his intentions are, and if I think he's cute, I might then move into some of the flirting that galaxy mentioned. I wouldn't ask him out, if he doesn't get it when I'm teasing him then he's probably not that interested.

[DN]

Look, women aren't going to ask guys out in large numbers any time soon. Women have been culturally conditioned to expect guys to show interest in them first for eons now. Whether you like it or not, that is the way women are. It is what it is.

 

This is partly true. But women were also conditioned to be subservient and obedient, demure and virginal until marriage. Your post assumes that nothing can change, or won't change fairly quickly. It also assumes that all women and most men act and react in the same way. But they don't.

 

Just as some men are more confident in approaching women, some women are more confident or adept at flirting.

 

Spend some time browsing through the various forums on here to see the divergent points of view, personalities. attributes etc. from men and women. There is almost no consistency within either gender.

[galaxy71]

I actually agree that women should ask guys out more. Yes, some women don't have a problem asking guys out. But you know what, what's the point of this debate?

 

This topic is beaten over and over again. Most of the guys want women to be more aggressive. Many of the women are happy with how things are because they feel uncomfortable with rejection. One side never seems to convince the other side. Instead of having an interesting discussion on how women need to build their flirting skills, some of the people here go off-topic to rehash an old-topic that he has been beaten over and over again.

 

The guys try to convince the girls with logic. The girl respond emotionally about how they feel more comfortable being pursued. What would make a much more interesting topic is how many women are hypocrital when they expect guys to ask them out yet they never attempt to help the guys out by flirting.

[heythere1234]

I think instead of trying to change the system, men would do better off to try to learn to work it. So, yeah what you said, galaxy.

[monsieur]

seems to me the system is not working very well for a lot of women too, lots of women have bad stories to tell of their love lives

[steelwool]

Good luck with that corvida and steelwool, your buddies will be out on dates, and you'll have your pride to console you!

Nowhere in this thread did I say women should make the first move. I said their flirting skills are lacking and need to improve. I have no problem asking women out. If they're letting me KNOW their interested there's no problem. The problem is they aren't making it obvious. I'd rather be single then stress myself out over mixed signals. They can stay single for being weak at attracting men.

[DN]

Nowhere in this thread did I say women should make the first move. I said their flirting skills are lacking and need to improve. I have no problem asking women out. If they're letting me KNOW their interested there's no problem. The problem is they aren't making it obvious. I'd rather be single then stress myself out over mixed signals. They can stay single for being weak at attracting men.

 

I understand what you mean. But there are some women who like trying to make men feel bad, particularly women who have problems of their own. The y prefer fighting with men then having a good relationship , they aren't really interested in flirting or making any effort and then blame men instead of taking any responsibility themselves. Much better to ignore them and move on to someone more open and who actually likes men. There are plenty of them and they are much more interesting.

[corvidae]

I'm curious to hear more about this.

Unempathetic towards guys feelings in which matter; exactly?

Which feelings?

Can you be more specific?

 

Well, you see, approaching someone is a difficult thing to do. Essentially what you are doing is walking up to a stranger and asking them to 'judge' you. A negative response at that stage has all sorts of repercussions for the ego, and can heavily dent your self-esteem and confidence. Some men overcome this by developing a thick hide and pushing feelings deep down, and you can see men who do this because they have the whole 'Yeah, I come on to women all the time...doesn't bother me'. It's the whole 'I'm a hunter Grrr...us real men don't have feelings!' attitude. Other men, are more self-aware and rejection, particularly multiple rejections, make them question aspects of themselves. That is not 'weakness', any more than allowing yourself to feel any emotion is weakness. When we go for a job interview and get rejected we feel sad, because we have been weighed and assessed and found lacking. Sure, you get over it, but it's a wound that needs to heal. The men that pronouce themselves to be macho/hunter types are oftent the weakest of all, because they can't handle that level of self-questionning, and thereforeeee block it out entirely under a guise of so-called manhood. I say this based upon my personal experience. Some of my friends who are 'players' talk about how great they are with women when in the company of their other 'player' friends, but when alone with with me often own up to how insecure they are (mainly because I'm the first to admit I suck when it comes to getting women; unlike a lot of men I feel no need to impress anyone by lying).

 

Now, onto empathy. Most women I know tell themselves that men don't have feelings, and that men can approach women because they don't feel the same fear that a woman would. I've heard women say that they would never make the first move because they couldn't handle the rejection, and yet, AND YET, they are willing to make another go through that exact same experience. Most strange. To take the difficulty and load it onto another's shoulder's? I think that the best situation will be when men and women cooperate, rather than try to work against each other. Playing games and making someone jump through hoops is, I hope you see, unempathic, as it places unnecessary difficulty on that person.

[corvidae]

I think instead of trying to change the system, men would do better off to try to learn to work it. So, yeah what you said, galaxy.

 

I'm curious. How well does this work for you? Are you happy? Has there ever been a time when you had strong feelings for someone, but let it go because of your beliefs?

[JonnyG]

you guys are so frustrating. the moment a woman lets you know DIRECTLY how she feels, shes interested, there's connection etc., you go running for the hills. It's all about the chase for you, supposedly right?

 

The only time I think a man will run to the hills is like Covirdae said, when they werent interested in the first place. Or they do what my flatm8 does, which is to go out with girls he really doesnt care about and just wants them for sex. As soon as they show interest, like u said, they then run to the hills.

 

I know that when i find a girl I want to see them cause i really want to see them. And that by telling me they like me just as much back as I like them would send me over the moon.

 

As for the chase part. Well. I guess some guys like the challenge, but for me personally playing these little games are a bit immature. Then again, I am quite mature when it comes to women and I do admit to taking things a bit seriously unfortunately so I maybe one of the few guys who doesnt like the chase. Dont get me wrong, when im with a girl I can act immature (in a fun way) with them to, but I cant be bothered with playing mind games. I find women hard enough to understand sometimes, I dont need more things to figure out

[itsallgrand]

Now, onto empathy. Most women I know tell themselves that men don't have feelings, and that men can approach women because they don't feel the same fear that a woman would. I've heard women say that they would never make the first move because they couldn't handle the rejection, and yet, AND YET, they are willing to make another go through that exact same experience. Most strange. To take the difficulty and load it onto another's shoulder's? I think that the best situation will be when men and women cooperate, rather than try to work against each other. Playing games and making someone jump through hoops is, I hope you see, unempathic, as it places unnecessary difficulty on that person.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I understand where you are coming from now.

 

That is most strange. It's not really fair. It's kind of a lazy approach. But I can somewhat understand the thought-pattern behind it: especially when you are a teenage girl or young woman, and if you are even somewhat attractive, you will have men asking you out. It really is like shooting fish in a barrel.

I've noticed as I get a little older;it slows. And you know - for the women that depend on their outward beauty and sex appeal - well, honey, we all get old and wrinkly. That's how I think of it. Better to stick to the ones that are willing to show some personality,heart, and effort.

 

Again, thanks for the thoughtful response.

[corvidae]

Why thank you, I wasn't sure if I was explaining it right. I tend to come accross as resentful in these posts sometimes and I don't mean to.

 

I suppose I've always thought that, as Thomas Paine said "That which we obtain too easily we esteem to lightly." Which is why women probably don't esteem men very highly, because it's all a one way process. I feel unhappy with this. I think this unhappiness and reluctance to fall in line may be my downfall. But I wouldn't be the first to suffer for something they believed. Till the bitter end then!

[DN]

Despite claims to the contrary things are slowly changing and more and more women are willing to take the initiative. It will take a while before it's 50-50 but it will eventually happen.

 

I think a lot of people misunderstand flirting. It does not have to be 'in you face' or aggressive in any way. I was once at a party where a woman was surrounded by four or five men. She was reasonably attractive to look at but not the most attractive in the room at first glance. But she had the attention of men that other women did not and I was interested to see why that was. And then I worked it out.

 

When she was talking to a guy, even though other men were in the conversation, she looked directly into the eyes of the guy she was talking to - and held his gaze. She was neither aggressive or submissive, her conversation was interesting and intelligent and she was obviously self assured. But she was friendly, smiling and treated men as interesting equals.

 

While she was talking to that particular man she gave him the feeling that there was no one else in the room that she was more interested in being with - he was the only one that mattered. Even when, a few seconds later, another person in the conversation caught her attention and she did the same thing with him, the first guy didn't feel abandoned but flattered that she had given him her undivided attention.

 

Being married, I was not interested in asking her out but a friend, one of the shyest men I knew, was given the courage to ask her out because he felt she was approachable, friendly and interested. She accepted and they dated for some months.

[heythere1234]

I usually tease men if i'm flirting. Can't help it. And giggle alot. Also can't help that. Men can be soo dense, though.

[DN]

I usually tease men if i'm flirting. Can't help it. And giggle alot. Also can't help that. Men can be soo dense, though.

 

Sometimes they can be but sometimes they are just not interested, at least not in giggling women who like to tease.

[heythere1234]

Sometimes they can be but sometimes they are just not interested, at least not in giggling women who like to tease.

 

Yes, and the same are not interested in uptight men with a chip on their shoulder.

[DN]

No chips on my shoulder - my wife had a look and told me they are chip-free.

[itsallgrand]

DN,

I liked your post on watching that woman at the party.

 

There was a key point in there that really struck me: acknowledgement.

When I (try) to flirt with someone, I go out of my way to address the person and make sure they know I see them,hear them, and am interested in what they have to say.

I might hold their gaze longer than usual. I might ask more questions. I'll use their first name a lot.

 

The funny thing is, I seem to do my best flirting when I'm not thinking about it.

It's really not rocket science.

When I'm relaxed and having fun, I think I exude that 'interested' air. Well, at least that's when I've had the best success!

 

[AnotherBrokenDoll]

Well see if you ask me girls do tell guys how they feel or at least hint it so much they understand! But men on the other hand... See coming from my point of view guyz need to talk to us more!

[steelwool]

Well see if you ask me girls do tell guys how they feel or at least hint it so much they understand! But men on the other hand... See coming from my point of view guyz need to talk to us more!

"Man on the other hand". What's this about us? A man can give a women a compliment and she'll respond like he insulted her or she becomes really arrogant. With actions like that you think we'll just start talking to you out of the blue? Tell me Rozi what do you do to get a guy's attention? I don't know any women that actually say what they want. Maybe on those sitcoms, but in real life...not. The hints you send off are so subtle. You want to build a guy's confidence so he'll make a move. Instead of acting like a mime you should start using your tongue.

[Twilight777]

If smiling and giggling just doesn't cut it, then what will? How would you like women to show that they're interested? I know there was a whole debate about "scaring guys off" by being forward...but I can't imagine just looking at a guy that I like and saying, "hey, I'm interested in you" without there being some uncomfortable tension on both ends. But it seems that anything less than that, men are unable to read into????

 

Trust me, I think women are just as confused as men. And it DOES seem like more and more, I'm finding that guys want girls to be the assertive ones...but I believe (and I know I might get attacked for this) that's because men are less picky (in general) than women....so there's a lot less rejection going around.

 

I recently "hooked up" with a gorgeous guy...but it's because I was the assertive one, I took control, I made the first move, and I guess I was just glad that he didn't reject me because he did send subtle hints, but never asked me out. This is all good and fine...but it turned out he didn't want a relationship. It was fine because I don't necessarily think I should be in a relationship right now....but what if I had wanted one with this guy? I would have been a fool to be the aggressor, and I would have been left broken hearted. So I guess it all depends on the situation as well.

[DN]

but I believe (and I know I might get attacked for this) that's because men are less picky (in general) than women....so there's a lot less rejection going around.

and your reasons for this generalised and somewhat sexist belief are? (other than your personal observations)