Dating Question - Who Pays?

[annie24]

i will listen to other females opinions but only if i think they are smart, shrewd and in control.

 

here you are advising females to bargain away all their power.

 

i advise any female who read the above to immediately discard that advice.

 

No, please explain - I (along with the rest of us, I think) are curious as to what this "bargaining power" is.

 

I really don't understand. In your other posts, you have said that you've been on 6 dates with a man that has never ever paid for you. You said that you've paid for your own dinner and done the driving quite a few times with this guy. You said that's a turn-off for you, so why do you keep going out with him if you think he's so cheap? Why am I the bad example? I am only "down" $2.50 and one date.

[melrich]

im not going to explain. u dont get the point.

 

I don't think anyone gets the point.

[ShySoul]

Time out everyone. This has desolved into pointless bickering with no one actually helping anyone else. The point has been lost because everyone involved has allowed their own personal feelings to let this topic get off course. Why don't we step back and actually look at where everyone is coming from.

 

Teacup, I understand that you believe a man should be willing to pay. I agree, the man should pay. But I believe that you are going to far in this. You have started nurmous topics on issues in your relationship and trying to understand relationships in general. Thus it would be beneficial to you to be more open to what others are saying instead of using insults and dismissing what anyone else has to say because they don't get it. Everyone has something to bring to the table. Even if you think what they say is complete nonsense, you should be polite. Besides, there are a lot more effective ways of showing people they don't know what they are talking about. Most people will reveal it in the words they write, no need to insult them.

 

You should be able to separate the man from his wallet. You yourself have demonstrated this with guys you have seen. I get the impression that you are allowing a bad expereince to cloud your judment on this issue. We all do that at times, it's ok. But please try to keep an open mind to what others are saying. We only want the best for you. And remember, you are not alone. So if you need someone to talk to, you can talk to me. I have a feeling I would enjoy talking to you.

 

And guys, many of the posts on here have included lines that could be considered very disrespectful and rude. It seems that the posts are no longer coming from a desire to help someone or reasonable discuss the topic, but as either attacks directed towards teacup or means of defending yourself from attacks. No one benefits from these kinds of posts. Why not stay away from the heated personal arguments. Remember everyone, sometimes it is better to not respond and hold your chin up then to return the taunts of someone else.

[BillyJean714]

It seems that the posts are no longer coming from a desire to help someone or reasonable discuss the topic, but as either attacks directed towards teacup or means of defending yourself from attacks. No one benefits from these kinds of posts. Why not stay away from the heated personal arguments. Remember everyone, sometimes it is better to not respond and hold your chin up then to return the taunts of someone else.

Nicely stated, ShySoul. That's very mature of you to say that! I wish more people thought like you and posted in a less threatening/offensive way. It's the internet for goodness sakes. There are much more bigger problems in this world. Instead of focusing on some minor issues and bickering on this website, I just accept the fact that people have different opinions, and that's okay. It's pointless to try to 'one-up' someone ALL of the time, just because they have a different opinion on things. I don't understand this whole gaining up on other people. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

[darkblue]

I agree BillyJean - but I am curious as to what was implied by 'bargaining power'.

 

I will, of course, respect the opinion of the poster - but I honestly don't have a clue what is meant by it.

[ShySoul]

I would also like to add that many of teacups points, very valid and reasonable ones, that agree with what many others have said were made in her first post but lost somewhere in the bickering. She has agreed to the following from the start:

 

"if later on the bill becomes split, especially if he cannot afford it, then that is an issue later on."

 

"i am by nature a generous person who doesnt quibble much about money"

 

"with cheap men it's hard to be a generous person because if you are too generous, they just take and dont give back and you end up feeling like you sold yourself short"

 

I believe teacup has all along felt that at first the guy should do the paying because she wants to know that the guy is interested in her. She wants to know that she is apprecaited. Later on she will have no problem with paying for things. She would have to verify this, but I also believe that past experiences has left her sensitive to this issue which is why she is so vehemently defending her stance. I would be interesting in knowing what lead her to her current stance. Asking her about why she thinks as she does would be more benficial then ganging up on her because you disagree with what she has to say.

 

DB, by bargaining power I believe people mean there position in the relationship. It's the thing about wanting to maintain control and power, not appearing desparate and all that. In this instance people are saying that money is a sign of power, and that for her to pay right away is somehow putting her in a negative role. It might be from past experiences, cultural, or something else.

 

BillyJean, thank you. Wise words as always. I just find it extremely unfair and all too common that people get jumped on and have to fend off a bunch of people who disagree with what they say, when they were only trying to state their opinions.

[teacup]

i dont really like to argue. there is just no point. everyone is welcome to stick to their opinion. just dont trample on mine.

 

my past experiences? i was abused by a guy for years. he put constant mental, emotional, psychological warfare on me. one of the ways he abused me was financially too. he never paid for anything even though he claimed to. i was always the one paying, paying paying. i paid for him and me for like everything. it hurt my wallet, but what hurt even worse was the way he treated me. he borrowed money from me, bullied and guilttripped me into lending him money, buying his cigarettes.

 

yes when a guy doesnt pay now, i take it as a personal attack that he doesnt think im worth paying for. especially if this is really early on in the relationship. it shows me that he values money over a human being. it shows me he's being disrespectful, discourteous, inconsiderate, and that he doesnt value me. that he doesnt care enough to pay. if he liked me enough, he would know or think it was the gentlemanly thing to do.

 

i can go on dates with guys who will easily pull out their wallet and just pay, no questions ask, they expect to do it. which is why i dont want to accept a guy who is going to make me feel bad by just making me pay myself.

 

when i pay, it reminds me of the pain of the past. it reminds me of what it was like to be treated like that. i cant go back to that darkness. i would rather have a guy who wont even ask that of me, who wont even put me in that situation.

 

women who dont recognize you have power in a guy paying for you...and just give that up.....fools.

[annie24]

My personal experience is - I have dated A LOT. Many many men. But through all my dating, I haven't seen a real correlation between how much money they spent on me, and how well I was treated. Very separate things, in my opinion. I've dated the brokest of broke student, who barely had money to pay their rent, much less, pay for my movie ticket. But, we went on romantic dates, like snuggling on the beach, or seeing live, free bands. I've also dated men who had no problem dropping tons of money on me, giving me tons of drinks, taking me to fancy restaurants, and getting me so drunk in hopes of being able to sleep with me easily that night. Blah. They were just literally trying to buy my affections. Their money would have been better spent if they just went to a hooker.

 

I went out again tonight with the guy I mentioned a few posts ago. The one who didn't pay for my coffee. Well, we went out again, he paid for everything, even though I offered to chip in, and we had a really nice night and he was very sweet. So, I don't think that not paying on one date automatically should give the guy a big fat X.

[RayKay]

Ditto. As I described meeting MY boyfriend, we initially split the cost of our date as we both had such a great time and went over budget. I certainly was not going to feel okay with him paying $100 on a first & blind date because we both racked up the bill! If he had paid it all, I would of actually felt BAD about it, since I contributed, I felt more at ease without feeling like I owed him anything, and in the year we have been together, he has never treated me with anything less then total respect, love, compassion and as an equal partner. So if sharing a life together with him where I am made to feel loved 100% is foolish since he did not pay the entire first date, well I guess I am glad I am a fool.

 

I too have dated students whom were broker then broke, and venture capitalists whom had plenty of money to throw around - and I too saw there was little correlation to how much money they spent to how well they would treat me or to how they saw me (ie as an equal) for the rest of the relationship.

 

It's not how much money they have, or how much they can afford, it is how they treat YOU as a person that matters most to me. It's fine if you do have other beliefs or takes on this, but realize that generalizing that someone whom pays = good person, and someone who doesn't = bad person is not going to prove to be accurate from person to person.

[Shajenko]

Let me get this straight...

 

I go out with a woman for the first time. Now, this woman is almost certainly a virtual stranger - all I really know about her is what she looks like, her outward demeanor, and maybe a few minutes of prior conversation at most.

 

Now, this date is a chance for both of us to see if we like each other. I might very well decide that I don't want to see her ever again, or I might just decide I might want to see her again, but I'm not crazy about her.

 

And I'm just expected to pay and pay and pay with no reciprocation at all?

 

Too hell with that. If she decides she doesn't want to see me any more because I won't pay her way, she's done me a favor. I don't get along with gold diggers.

[teacup]

that is funny

[smallworld]

Teacup, although I've never suffered through a physically abusive relationship, my family too is Asian and I truly understand how money can be an emotionally charged issue for you. Just two days ago I had to deal with this. My husband and I went to a sandwhich shop run by a Korean lady. When it came time to pay, she asked me who was paying and seemed highly amused when I said "The woman of course!" She wouldn't let it go and proceeded to make fun of my husband for not being "man" enough to pay. I felt belittled because like you I grew up within a culture where the men always pay and knew what she was insinuating: That only unattractive women have to 'pay'. She had no idea we were married. All she saw was a woman paying for a man's lunch. But in those three minutes of crassness she revealed to me everything I needed to know about herself and her establishment. Needless-to-say we won't be patronizing her shop any more.

 

Despite my traditional upbringing, I've always believed that it's more important to treat others as you wish to be treated. And I refuse to believe that my self-worth (or anyone else's) can ever be determined by how much any man or woman does or doesn't spend on me. I don't believe any one gender should have to pay all the time. I don't believe in going dutch. I don't believe in 'fairness'. I believe in friendship and I believe in love. And I believe whoever does the inviting, should do the paying. If you find yourself with someone who rarely reciprocrates, don't take it personally. Just move on. Their cheapness isn't about you and your self-worth. It's about them and their own issues with money. My husband has a friend like this. I used to get irritated with this 'friend' and his tendency to complain about how much everything costs (for instance if we're seeing a movie matinee, he'd complain about that), but now I just feel sorry for him because I see that he's reaped what he's sown. He's an MBA who makes fairly good money and yet his cheapness consistenly offends others and has cost him more in career advancement, friendship, and in love than it has ever profited him. His neverending loneliness is the natural consequence of his overvaluing money over the people in his life.

 

That being said, I agree with the others that say it's more important HOW others treat you than how much they spend. In college my boyfriend (now husband) was on scholarship and had very little money to spend on himself, nevertheless a girlfriend. And yet he was always generous with me even when we were just friends with his time, his heart, and his "shoulder". I actually paid for most of our 'big' dates at that time but never felt shortchanged, because he was constantly chivalrous with me in small ways that let me know how much he cared about me. So for someone like myself who grew up feeling unloved and misunderstood and who now lived in a metropolis 2500 miles away from home, the love that he showered me with in 29 cent hamburgers, love letters, silly souveniers he picked up when we were apart, and "just because" phone calls meant more to me than any bevy of expensive dates ever could.

 

So perhaps you're a right... Perhaps I was fool for giving up my 'power' when I chose to love him despite his inability to romance me with greenbacks, but somehow after all these years I think I still got the better end of the deal...

 

PS. ShySoul thank you so much for being the voice of compassion, understanding, and reason in this post. It rarely happens but it's always disconcerting for me to see when a mere difference of opinion turns ugly. It's hard for anyone to ask for help and takes a lot of courage for one to bare one's soul. I admire those who take that risk here at Enotalone every day.

 

Many times I too have found myself angry and disgusted with viewpoints expressed here, but then I remind myself that the open expression of those viewpoints is the only way that things every get resolved. There's already so much needless pain and warfare in the world, why add to it by demonizing those that disagree with us?

 

Enotalone is an amazing place of love, understanding, and healing whose slogan "You're not alone" encompasses the gifts of empathy and compassion that people most need in their darkest hours. They come here seeking it because it's so obviously in short supply in the real world.

 

So although others may not say it often enough, I feel compelled to say it now: Thank you so much Shy for always taking the time to stand up for the disenfranchised. It's people like yourself who give shyer folks like me the courage to speak our minds even when we know our viewpoints might not be shared or accepted by the prevailing majority. And in fact it was your outspokenness and sensitivity towards others less fortunate on this site that encouraged me to register and start posting here. I admire you immensely and hope that you never stop being a "mind with a heart of it's own." Kudos!

[RandomAdvisor]

This is an interesting cultural examination.... As for Asians, last year I took an anthropology class on gender relations. Asian cultures by and large are dominated by men, who take care most of the finances. With one exception - the Philipines. There, when a man comes home with his paycheck, he has to give it to his wife straight away. As for who should pay and everything else being discussed in this thread...I really have to agree with everything DN said. Times are changing. It's an interesting dichotomy when women demand equal rights, and equal pay, and then still hold on to an outdated belief that men should pay for everything when they go out on a date. Years ago that was very functional. How were women supposed to pay for half of anything when they didn't work? There is another aspect of this I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. Someone mentioned a guy paying for you and how much he's willing to pay reveals what he thinks you're worth. Personally, I think that's a little degrading. I think that sort of mentality has its roots in the belief that women are "things" - objects to be won, or bought and paid for. And this is where you have guys who pay for a date - or dates - and expect "something" in return.

[teacup]

i am talking about him spending more money on you because he thinks you are "worth" it. as in, i am willing to pay for this girl because i "enjoy her company, she is fun, beautiful, interesting, considerate, sweet, and i am lucky to spend time with her. and want to show her generosity and fine treatment"

 

not a "i am willing to spend some money on her cuz if i spend more i can get more."

 

does anyone even get my posts?

[RandomAdvisor]

i am talking about him spending more money on you because he thinks you are "worth" it. as in, i am willing to pay for this girl because i "enjoy her company, she is fun, beautiful, interesting, considerate, sweet, and i am lucky to spend time with her. and want to show her generosity and fine treatment"

 

not a "i am willing to spend some money on her cuz if i spend more i can get more."

 

does anyone even get my posts?

And why can't the opposite be true? Why can't a woman take a guy out and pay for him because she thinks he's worth it?

[teacup]

i would if it was on his birthday or wanted to do something very special for him. plus i would do sweet little things all the time anyways.

 

but in the early stages of dating, i believe that HE is supposed to be COURTING me. showing me that he knows and feels im a very valuable person and expressing that by putting his money where his mouth is.

 

this isnt about nonreciprocation. you make a mistake by assuming that the girl will not eventually reciprocate what he does for her.

 

there was one guy that got me lots of gifts, took me out a lot.....for his birthday i got him a $160 monte blanc pen. i wanted to acknowledge that i noticed and appreciated his gestures.

[RandomAdvisor]

but in the early stages of dating, i believe that HE is supposed to be COURTING me. showing me that he knows and feels im a very valuable person and expressing that by putting his money where his mouth is.

I'll ask again, why does it have to be this particular way? Why must the guy always be the one who pays for everything in the early stages? Why isn't it the girl who's expect to do this, or why can't they split it? We're debating cultural norms here. And with so many other cultural norms that are called into question, your explanation seems to be "That is the way that it is. It just is."

[RandomAdvisor]

Another thing. Your belief that it is the guy who must court the girl plays into the idea that only guys can be aggressive. This leads to double standards. So if a guy is aggressive and successful, good for him! But if a girl is aggressive, then she's a $%^&. If a guy sleeps around and gets himself many women, he's a stud. If a woman does that? She's a hoe.

[Shajenko]

but in the early stages of dating, i believe that HE is supposed to be COURTING me. showing me that he knows and feels im a very valuable person and expressing that by putting his money where his mouth is.

How do I know you're a very valuable person? I just met you recently. You could be very bitter, or a psycho, or any number of other things.

 

You seem to be saying that men are obligated to spend money on an unproven person, while you yourself should be free to wait until you know for sure that he's worth your cash.

[teacup]

i am not interested in this philosophy debate mumbo jumbo.

 

i am thinking both of you do not have any real dating experience.

 

i am not going to discuss dating with ppl who dont date.

[RandomAdvisor]

Philisophy mumbo jumbo? Shajenko just asked an excellent question, and I showed how your way of thinking falls right into negative stereotypes about women.

 

I think you just conceded the argument.

[ShySoul]

If I'm reading her posts correctly, teacup comes from the old school of dating. The guy courts the ladies and pursues her. He needs to show how special to him she is. A girl wants to be respected, loved, and treated well. She wants to know that she can count on a guy and that he doesn't mind doing something as simple as paying a few bucks to show her a good time. She wants to feel desired. Once the girl feels that way, she'll have no problem paying her share. But at first she wants to know that she isn't investing her time, her money, and her heart into a guy who doesn't feel that strongly for her.

 

Yes, it doesn't have to be that way. The girl could be the one paying for things. And with some relationships that is how it is. But there are still many people who believe in chivalry, being a gentleman, and courting a lady the old fashioned way. Personally, I wonder why so many are so strongly against this. What harm does it actually do? For the guys, why can't you spare some dollars to try and show a person a good time? Are you saying that you will only spend dollars on a "proven" women, that they must first gain your approval? And if you are so concerned with the cost, try planning something fun, romantic, and less expensive. Picnics. Bowling. Check out a paper for local events. Ice skating. It isn't the cost that you should be worried about. It isn't whether or not you have or are giving up power. It's about two people being around each other and hopefully having a good time.

 

Shajenko, that was uncalled for. Teacup did not deserve to be critized like that. EVERYONE is a valuable person. You may not personally get along with them, you may disagree with them on just about everything. But they are still valuable and deserve to be treated with respect. Especially if you have just met them. What are you going to do, be suspicious of everyone you meet and be expecting them to earn your respect? That won't be taken very well by most people. You should extend courtesy to everyone. And if you asked a lady out, least you can do is pay for it.

 

some_guy282, I agree that the double standard you mention is silly. But I don't think it has to do with what teacup is saying. It isn't about being aggressive, its about showing your interest. He does it through paying, she does it in other ways.

 

Teacup, I'm sorry for what you went through. It's understandable how you feel and that you are trying to be more careful and guard yourself from that kind of abuse again. I just worry about the way you are equating money with self worth. There are other ways to show that someone cares, and I'm sure that you know this in your heart. Just because a guy pays for the dates, doesn't mean he likes you more. It's about sensing how sincere and honest the guy is. It's about how he treats you overall, which is much more then the money. You deserve to have someone who will treat you right. And I hope you find him.

 

Smallworld, got any tissues handy? Your post really touched me. That's why I post, to help others and to show people who may carry a different opinion then the majority that they are not alone. As a shy guy who thinks differently then most, its always taken a lot for me to speak out. But everyone needs to be heard. It's those who speak out against the popular opinion that have started movements for change. It's those who speak out for what they believe in who are the strongest off us, especially those who do so under harsh circumstances. People don't need to be afraid of speaking up, and people shouldn't jump on someone who does just because they don't like what the other person is saying. Put yourself in the other persons shoes. Who wants to be part of a 5 on 1 battle? Least people can do is try to understand where the other person is coming from and not take things so personally. Everyone has a voice, and everyone needs to be heard:

 

"Here, gathered together in common cause, we begin to realize this singular truth and this singular rule that we must be kind to one another. Because each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light our way to a better future. We are one."

 

-Babylon 5

[RandomAdvisor]

Personally, I wonder why so many are so strongly against this. What harm does it actually do?

 

There are practical reasons. As it's been said many times in this thread, in years long past this system was practical and functional. Times have changed. It's hypocritical of women to pick and choose what kind of equal rights they want. Voting, great. Equal pay for equal work, great. Having to use some of that equal pay to help foot the bill at that first date? Oh, no no no no no!

 

I think it is simply unfair and a little hypocritical on its face. As for what harm it does, like I said I think it's a seemingly but not so harmless remnant of an old and outdated view of women. When I think serious chivalry and a man pursueing a woman to show her how special she is, I'm thinking of victorian times in the 1800's. Aww....so romantic, right? The men opened doors for women, pulled out the chairs for them, told them how beautiful they were in lengthy poetry. It was great, right? Wrong. We often have an idealized and incorrect view of the past. The high times for chivalry were the same times women were little more than property. They couldn't do any serious work because society (read: men) thought they were too stupid to do any real work. They stayed in their houses, on the beck and call of their parents. And when they finally did get married - after the father paid the husband a dowry, a little "thank you" for taking her off his hands - she was expected to stay home, make babies, sit down shut up and do what her husband told her. And god forbid she didn't get married! A woman without a husband was nothing. But if a guy didn't want to marry, well, that was his decision. Why? Well....because that's just the way things were! Which is exactly what teacup is saying.

 

So now women want to be able to get out, work and have their own lives. I think that's great. They don't want to be responsible for all the child rearing and housework. They think that, *gasp* their husbands should help out too! I agree. But the street goes both ways. And when women cling to the notion that guys should pay for everything on first dates (or any dates for that matter) they are clinging to part of an outdated belief system that perpetuates the notion that women are inferior and property. That's why I think it's dangerous. As I said before, it also holds the danger of making less than reputable guys think they are owed sex since they are paying for the dates. I took a quick look at teacup's posts, and noticed she once posted about guys only wanting her for sex on dates. Who do you think was paying for those dates?

 

This is just a small facet of overall gender relations and accepted gender norms in our society. I don't think both sexes will truly be equal until outdated expectations like this are a thing of the past. On first dates or blind dates I think both parties should split the bill. Splitting the bill on all dates, or the person who invites paying for everything both sound fair to me. And you know what else? I think a girl should be able to propose marriage to a guy without anyone else giving it a second thought. And the guy shouldn't be ashamed of it either. And why can't it be customary for the girl to get the guy some sort of expensive engagement ring as well?

[Double J]

Interesting topic.

 

I've been in a relationship for almost 8 months now, and I'm very happy. My g/f seems to subscribe to the old-fashioned way of thought that the guy should always pay for expenses. From time to time, she's bought me a little gift, and has even brought me candy from the store.

 

When I first met her, I didn't have a job, and she did (even though she gets paid very little), but regardless, she still didn't offer to pay for a dinner, popcorn at the movies, or anything of that sort. I had a job for a few months, had to leave it for personal reasons, and now i'm job searching again.

 

In the 8 months i've been with my g/f, I've never seen her take out money or a wallet in front of me. In my view, a guy should be chivalrous at the beginning of the relationship, but once things get serious, it should be more half and half. These money matters can have major implications for the future.

 

I'll definitely have a talk w/ my g/f about this one of these days, but my view is that once things get serious in a relationship, girls should pay for stuff too. It shows that, aside from an emotional investment, she is also making a financial investment in the future.

[annie24]

Eeek!!! 8 months and she's never taken out her wallet once??? Eeek! I don't know - I think that's a bit tacky. Even in the "olden days", women would give to their boyfriends tickets to plays or the opera that their "uncle" gave her (but everyone knew that the woman scraped together some money to treat her man).

 

In truth, I really like it when a man pays for me in the beginning, but I don't require it. After all, I don't know what his financial situation is in the beginning. He may have some massive credit card debt. I think it would be irresponsible for him to spend $70 on me if he's paying $70 in finance charges each month. I don't want a man who is fiscally irresponsible! That's definitely not the type of man I want to spend the rest of my life with!