Going from just a friend to more: How to

[Beec]

Shysoul,

 

Aloof is being independent. Like being able to walk away from her and if she never contacts you again, then that's just fine with you. If she calls me and asks for help, I might help. Always depends on how big the favor and whether I can do it. But that does not mean I need or want her, it shows that she wants or needs me or something from me.

 

Now doing all sorts of nice things for her is fine, if you think YOU need to win her over. Frankly, I think I am a pretty good catch, so any woman is going to have to do some winning over of me. Flowers will come when I want to make her feel a certain way, because she has had that or a similar affect on me. Before we are romantically inclined, I would do no more or less for her than I would for a guy who is my friend. If I was interested in more, then I might do that, while I still looked at her in ways that indicated I wanted to throw her on the bed and take her.

 

Doing all the romantic stuff is all fine and good, once you are in a romance. Before you are in a romance, what does it say when you buy her flowers? It seems to me like you are buying her attention. Or are you telling ehr how you feel and expecting that she should then feel the same way. Telling someone how you feel, and expecting them to feel the same, is actually pretty selfish. There is no reason that they should reciprocate just because you feel that way. No, they reciprocate when you make them feel a certain way.

 

If you are asking about my experiences, I would first tell you that when I met my gf, I bossed her around. I told her to do something for her own good, and she resisted, and I continued and told her I would jsut make it happen if she did not do it. I wasn't mean about it, I saw what she should do and was going to make sure she did it. In this case, we are talking about cooling off an injury she had to stop it from becoming worse.

 

I will also tell you that I make fun of her, all the time. I also make fun of myself and everyone else. And sometimes, I say things that I know she would tell me she does not like.

 

We met two months before we dated. In those two months, I went out with a number of women. She recently commented on what I did when we met and how I did not do something (I told another guy to make fun of a woman in his pick up lines). My follow up was to tell her that she did not make "my rotation" during those two months, that I was going out with other women and not her. She got "fake mad" and flirted with me right away. She also commented that that sounded like she was jsut another woman in my rotation, and I corrected her and said "NO, you did not make the rotation back then." I followed this up with telling right now she is the only one in the game and it is hers to win or lose. This whole exchange had a few messages: one, I said things that clearly indicate independence, I am not cow-towing to her; two, I have value in and of myself, value she should seek, value that others would enjoy, and because of that I can select her or someone else, I SELECT a woman, I don't sit and wait for one I made a friendly offer too; and finally, that she has been selected. You'd think that telling her she did not make my rotation would be a bad thing and she'd be mad, but that's not the case. The looks and reaction over the next 24 hours were that she loved me more than ever. So, explain that within your just be a friend and always be nice theory.

 

I do the things you suggest, I just make darn sure that I do not do them all the time.

 

I look at being a lover in some ways as being like a parent. Just because a child tells you it wants candy, does not mean you give it to the child. Giving it candy may not be good for it now or in the longterm. It alsois not going to ensure the child loves you. Indeed, many spoiled children don't seem to love their parents, they are just spoiled. A good lover does not give in to their love all the time. Sometimes, you need to make clear that you will not.

 

Now, if she needs, and I mean needs, some help, then you should be there. If she wants you to do something, then you should not always do it. Sometimes, you just need to say NO.

 

Love is an emotional attachment that we have to another person, that's all. It has bene called and is very much like a drug. It works by the person feeling emotional highs that they relate to their lover and how their lover makes them feel. You cannot always be high. There needs to be ups and downs. Without the downs, she will not realize she is on a high. Without missing something, she is less likely to realize that it is there. You need to create tension and then release it. You and your suggested methods create no tension.

 

When we begin with someone, we want a good deal. We want to get what we seek and not have to pay alot. This is why clingy people are just run from as lovers, unless the other person is also needy. What skyfire suggests is a way to demonstrate interest, to give a person what they seek and then remove yourself so they recognize it. If you jsut keep giving and giving and waiting on them to come to you because of how nice you are, I would suggest you are more like an emotional polyp deep in their innards than a true lover. Skyfire suggests ways in which to help her see what you do for her. What is wrong with that? He does not suggest abandoning her in her moments of need.

 

Think about guys who are great friends. Are we always nice to each other? No way. Are they always cordial and following proper ettiquette? Not. You see guy friends together and they are always making fun of each other and tearing each other apart. They play the fart game, but this does not make them less as friends. See guys act like that and then go try and pick a fight with one of them, and you will see all of them soon invovled in the fight and need to take them all on. They can make fun of each other and still protect each other. Their making fun of each other does not show a lack of respect. And we don't need to buy each other things. We may, but we don't need it to be friendly. Indeed, if one guy always buys and the others always accept, the buyer is usually being used. Relationships with women are not so different. Do you act like this toward the woman you want? I doubt it.

 

True love is built on three things: friendship; respect and passion. But they are not built on always just being nice to each other. You need all three, and you need to create all three in her.

[Miss M]

Thanks RayKay, for your further clarification. And no matter what my reaction, I do feel the clarification was needed here.

 

I think you REALLY REALLY REALLY misread my post.

It probably had something to do with your use of the pronoun "we" instead of "I" in that particular sentence. Or maybe it would have helped if you had used some qualifiers like "some women want" instead of saying "we also want." When you start talking about women wanting to be thrown on a bed and taken... well... yes... I feel it's much more important and helpful to make it clear you don't speak for all women. Believe it or not, some idiot men think you do. Your subsequent post made those distinctions very clearly, and you said more of "I" instead of "we" to describe it, so I don't have a complaint about that.

 

There is NOTHING in my post that said it was not consensual, or that it is him "trying crap". I am not talking about strangers here...I am talking about people whom are involved in relationships. I did not once advocate "rape" or sex on someone not consenting.

And neither was there anything in your statement that said it WAS consensual, or that it was NOT rape. Getting thrown on the bed and being taken sounds just like sexual assault to me.

 

And just a note: In my earlier post I didn't mention the word rape either, but you interpreted it there, yes?... so it happens that way, doesn't it?

 

Differnet people enjoy different things...

And that's exactly my point also. You don't speak for all women, but that was less clear in your previous comment. And from here that distinction seems important when you're talking about being "thrown" and "taken."

 

Perhaps you should reread my post since I have no idea why you got so worked up over it...

And I'd already reread it SEVERAL times before I posted. And I didn't see any mention whatsoever of this being a consensual thing even though I knew that's probably what you meant. I just felt that what you wrote needed clarifying. Unless you specifically state it, being "taken" doesn't sound consensual to many people.

 

And my "getting worked up" also had something to do with the fact that I've actually been "thrown on the bed and taken" ... and it was also not a "stranger" who did it which is also the case in most rapes. And it did happen while I was in a relationship with the guy. Some(most? all?) of us who've been treated that way without our consent will have a problem with how you first stated it. I guess we're kinda sensitive that way, but I make no apology for that. And I'm just asking that you have some regard our sensitivity.

 

And thanks again for the clarification.

[Beec]

And I'd already reread it SEVERAL times before I posted. And I didn't see any mention whatsoever of this being a consensual thing even though I knew that's probably what you meant. I just felt that what you wrote needed clarifying. Unless you specifically state it, being "taken" doesn't sound consensual to many people.

 

Doesn't her saying she wants it, imply consent? I understood it to mean exactly what RayKay intended.

 

We all want to know we are wanted, and sometimes it is nice to be shown that by a person whose lust seems to be almost out of control. Forceful, but not an exertion over someone who is unwilling. Not exerting your power against their will. Not rape.

[RayKay]

And I'd already reread it SEVERAL times before I posted. And I didn't see any mention whatsoever of this being a consensual thing even though I knew that's probably what you meant. I just felt that what you wrote needed clarifying. Unless you specifically state it, being "taken" doesn't sound consensual to many people.

 

Doesn't her saying she wants it, imply consent? I understood it to mean exactly what RayKay intended.

 

We all want to know we are wanted, and sometimes it is nice to be shown that by a person whose lust seems to be almost out of control. Forceful, but not an exertion over someone who is unwilling. Not exerting your power against their will. Not rape.

 

That's exactly what I meant Beec. And I did say "want" which does yes indeed imply I am consenting to it. When I say one one hand "romancing and also being thrown on the bed and taken" I do not really see how that can be immmediately seen as "I like flowers, and then rape". When you read things, they need to be put into context, otherwise you could ALWAYS read things in a negative light when they are not meant that way.

 

Miss M...I can understand your sensitivities, but if you read all my post, I think the context is quite clear when you put it with my other examples that I encourage excitement and play in a relationship. The whole post is thread is about becoming more than friends (aka relationship). Since most people have read more of the thread to know what is going on...I should not have to go into too much detail that I am not supporting rape, or that I am advocating something against ones consent. I think most would also see my word "taken" in the right context...those who don't, well, it is not due my post. My post would not convince someone to rape if they did not have that personality to do so....

 

And I say "we" because it seems other posters seem to also feel that they can speak for "all women wanting really nice guys"....I am not so presumptous to assume ALL women want the identical thing I do, just that we don't ALL want what other posters have determined what we want.

 

Many women have had sexual assaults/rapes occur, I am also one of those, but that does not mean that I cannot understand the difference between saying the word "taken" and "rape" when I am relating it to this thread's original premise. There IS a difference. If you had any idea who I was or my history, you would also know I have a lot of empathy for people who have been in those situations, however this thread and my post is not discussing those situations.

 

As for your earlier post..no you did not mention the word "rape" but by the fact you got very angry, and wished you could swear, and that "he should not try this crap" makes the meaning or your interpretation very clear - as I put it in the context of your post.

 

I am sorry you read it that way, but when I write a post I do not sit there for an hour analyzing how EVERY person will interpret it, I expect people to be able to read the background thread and put things in a proper context. If I was writing for EVERY interpretation I would not be very effective at writing many posts and moderating as I am also supposed to do around here

[Miss M]

RayKay, Beec,

I don't see my reaction to RayKay as being any different as your subsequent reaction to me. I felt strongly about what I wrote, as do you. We're all interpreting these posts according to our own limited view, and throwing our opinions into the mix. I felt the need to toss in my 2 cents because I thought that comment needed clarification, but I also understand and accept why you saw it differently. Both perspectives seem as valid as the other. This is a place to put out all perspectives and that's just what I'm doing.

 

And I say "we" because it seems other posters seem to also feel that they can speak for "all women wanting really nice guys"....

And I see SkyFire, Beec, DroptoZero, RayKay generally advocating one viewpoint, also seeming to speak for "all women wanting game players" while ShySoul is mostly alone in advocating the other view. So from here it also seems very lopsided in a way and from a perspective that you don't share with me. That's okay too. I'm just making a point here that there are different perspectives happening in how this thread is viewed, experienced and interpreted.

 

Also I don't want to hi-jack either... so I'll bow out again and let you guys continue.

 

Again, thanks for the clarification.

[RayKay]

I NEVER once said I wanted a 'game player', you are grouping me in the same way you criticized me for doing My own life partner does not "play games" with me. He respects & loves me, communicates with me, and treats me as a very important part of his life. I don't date "jerks" or choose to spend the rest of my life with a "jerk". I wanted someone real, who is not a doormat and has enough confidence in himself to also stand up for himself, and be his own individual person. And whom treats me like a partner, not as someone on a pedestal. Which is what I was saying in the first place.

 

And yes, we should be staying on topic, though these posts are skirting close since we are still clarifying original posts further...and I am still sticking to my original post.

[darkblue]

This is kind of hijacking the thread. Can you not continue this by use of PM or a separate topic?

[Beec]

Aren't RayKay and Miss M on point when the mention "game players". Miss M sees what we are talking about as game playing, as does Shysoul, while the rest of us don't really see this as "just playing a game." We see it something else quite entirely.

 

If what Skyfire suggests works and the woman becomes more than a friend, and you want her as more than a friend, then what could be wrong with that? If he wants her and acts in a way that brings her to like him, then what could be wrong with both of then wanting to be with each other? I hope nothing.

 

Miss M and Shysoul interpret the tactics advanced by Skyfire as being ones used by a game player, and they might be. But if Skyfire, me or anyone else uses them to get and keep a woman, then are we playing games. Or are we doing what that person wants a lover, partner, husband, boyfriend or whatever to do? If we are doing what they want a lover to do, then what could be wrong with that?

 

The original intent of Skyfire was to say, look, if you have fallen for a woman and want her, then here is how to get her to feel the same. Nothing works the same on all women, but this can and does work. So what is the problem? What is the need for imprinting on anyone who does this the intent of one who just plays games?

 

Now, Shysoul and Miss M, I realize this does not purport with your view of the world as it should be. Oh well. It is the world that most of us live in.

 

Go to a party full of beautiful women, and watch all the guys looking at them, tellingthem how beautiful they are, then watch the women go home with the guys who ignore them at the beginning, who look away after checking them out.

 

Why are all the guys who are always nice sitting while women get taken out by guys who are jerks? Why did the bad boy, the tough guy in high school always have a girl on his arm, while the sweet, nice guy went home and dreamed about having a date some day?

[Miss M]

Beec, I actually agree with what you've written here. Some people are different and have different needs and there's nothing wrong with that. If what you like seems to work for you and yours in your life, then I have no problem with that and no say in that. And even though I don't agree with what others have said about the tactics, I'm not advocating they need to change them to suit me. I agree with ShySoul, but I don't need people who have a different perspective and experience to do things my way. I only indicated my opinion about the overall topic in reference to the other point I was making with RayKay. But I hadn't felt the need to insert it otherwise. In fact, I've found it very interesting reading about how others view this. It's been very educating for me.

 

Go to a party full of beautiful women, and watch all the guys looking at them, tellingthem how beautiful they are, then watch the women go home with the guys who ignore them at the beginning, who look away after checking them out.

 

Why are all the guys who are always nice sitting while women get taken out by guys who are jerks? Why did the bad boy, the tough guy in high school always have a girl on his arm, while the sweet, nice guy went home and dreamed about having a date some day?

Well, I've said in another thread that some women would be grateful to be relieved of the "jerks" who get it in their heads that she wants them. But of course, I can't speak for all women, but I've noticed some women who wouldn't mind a nice gentleman running interference for her sake. Guys assume what women are thinking, but they hardly ever ask her how it feels. We are just not all alike. And I've not been one who's into jerks in the way you described.

 

What I want is for the ones who try these tactics purported here to not inflict them on me, to not assume that's what I want just because it seems to work on other women. And if there is some nice guy like ShySoul describes, (not a scared man some have seemed to think he is describing), and if I ever find him, (in my age-range that is ),... well, I'm snatching him up just as fast as I can. Somehow I seem to attract jerks. I've been trying all my life to understand that, but just because they've flocked around me, it doesn't mean that's what I've wanted. And I've been through lots of what SkyFire purports. It hasn't ever appealed to me. Never. But it's the only thing I usually see. When I tell guys I don't want that, they don't believe me because they dismiss how I say I feel, what I say I want. Dumb. They tell me I'm not gonna find a guy like I want, that I should stop being picky and just settle for them. Over the decades, hundreds of guys who are not my type have told me that. Hundreds of guys have tried the tactics you described, insisting that's what I should accept from them. Again, dumb. I finally gave up, dug in my heels, determined to stay put until something different shows up. And now I haven't been on a date in about 14 years.

 

Now I'm willing to even consider that maybe I've somehow missed some of the clues. What does a nice guy look like? How does he behave? Is there really such a thing? I don't know yet. ShySoul describes something and someone I've never ever seen anywhere in my entire life. I really don't think you've understood what he's saying. But that's okay too. You really don't have to because I'm not even interested in the kind of guy who doesn't understand this perspective. I'm not interested in changing anybody's mind. But I do know I don't want what you guys have been describing, even though you say it works for you. It just doesn't work for me.

 

So maybe those shy guys you're describing aren't the same as the ones ShySoul is describing. It does seem like you're talking about something different when you describe the shy ones, and then ShySoul comes back to say re-explain, to re-iterate. And to you it seems as if ShySoul is misunderstanding what you're describing. I don't happen to think there are an abundance of shy and nice guys like ShySoul is describing. But maybe I'm wrong about that. In case I am, I plan on keeping my eyes and ears open, just in case. But I really don't think they are in that group of shy guys you're describing because I don't think they're at parties being wallflowers, feeling lonely and ignored.

 

Oh well, that's another 2 cents from me.

[DN]

It is amusing in this thread that, despite people saying they are not generalising, they then go ahead and do that exact thing. For instance:

 

Not generalising I've said in another thread that some women would be grateful to be relieved of the "jerks" who get it in their heads that she wants them. But of course, I can't speak for all women, but I've noticed some women who wouldn't mind a nice gentleman running interference for her sake.

Generalising:

Guys assume what women are thinking, but they hardly ever ask her how it feels.

[DropToZero]

Where exactly are you now? Do you have a girlfriend? Do you have a real serious relationship that stands a chance of lasting? I've always said that if all you want is to be able to say you have dates and are going out with girls, kissing or sleeping with them... then by all means your method works. But if you want something that will last, what I say more then works. Every woman I know says it, and all the married woman I know (or those who have been married at one point), essentially back me up. So, if you want to know what women want, what better advice to listen to then that of women who have been in successful marriages?

 

I think the real question is...have you?...but anyways...I feel like I'm getting dragged into this again...like said, it's taking over the true interest of the post.

 

You want an update...fine...I don't have a g/f....like said I didn't want one. You want the truth..or at least a quick relapse....just like the first girl I dated, all my attention disappeared again with this girl. Then one nite at a party my best bud tells me she's just started dating some other guy alongside me...and I knew the guy. Anyways, I shouldn't have cared, but..in the end I did, I won't lie. So pretty much...in short, I've cut it off...I somehow got attached even tho I wasn't supposed to have...so this is the best thing. I'm not putting aside the fact that this 'relationship' could restart in time, but for now...I'm done. I didn't really want to get into it...because honestly I thought it was going to last a bit longer...but hey I can't control things...life changes quickly. Then the other nite, like I said in a before post...some other girl I dated randomly comes back into the picture and starts laying out apologies for what she'd done...and you can go back and re-read if you wish. It was really odd timing I thought...all in all, made me feel better...but I'm not sure if I'll continue with her in the future...I've kinda moved on from her now.

 

Back to this post tho and away from my life, this is going to go on forever...I've tried explaining. You're right in a way tho, I got what I wanted...or at least she did ehmm. Anyways, I have been dating more girls....you know what tho? I'm not dating 50 like said..there's no idea of quantity over quality in my mind. The thing I must point out is that I went from NO dates to where I'm at now. You don't call that success...I don't know what your definition is then...but I'll look forward to hearing it when the time comes.

 

Married women can say what they want to...my mom's one too ya know? If I was still listening to her dating advice I'd be somewhat lonely right now tho. So that's why I stopped coming to my parents or talking with them about my personal life...because things have changed...sorry to say it, but things have changed. I listen to my mom and dad's dating stories, and heck, I wish mine were as simple as theirs were sometimes...but it's not. I dont really have time to finish this up...I'll look forward to getting back to the post's arguments tho.

[Miss M]

It is amusing in this thread that, despite people saying they are not generalising, they then go ahead and do that exact thing. For instance:

 

Not generalising I've said in another thread that some women would be grateful to be relieved of the "jerks" who get it in their heads that she wants them. But of course, I can't speak for all women, but I've noticed some women who wouldn't mind a nice gentleman running interference for her sake.

Generalising:

Guys assume what women are thinking, but they hardly ever ask her how it feels.

DN, I'm really not getting why this is necessary.

But I would suggest that you misunderstood.

[DN]

It is amusing in this thread that, despite people saying they are not generalising, they then go ahead and do that exact thing. For instance:

 

Not generalising I've said in another thread that some women would be grateful to be relieved of the "jerks" who get it in their heads that she wants them. But of course, I can't speak for all women, but I've noticed some women who wouldn't mind a nice gentleman running interference for her sake.

Generalising:

Guys assume what women are thinking, but they hardly ever ask her how it feels.

DN, I'm really not getting why this is necessary.

But I would suggest that you misunderstood.

 

I think it speaks for itself.

[Dreng3333]

Ive spent a better part of the last hour reading this entire thread. I think it amazing that so many people can be so stubborn in their beliefs.

 

Each person is different. Evryone has their own personalities, women and men. Some women like gus who are outspoken and/or "aloof." Others prefer guys who are going to be there for them when they need them, and would sacrifice some of their time to be with that girl. There is nothing wrong with sacrificing some of your own time for a friend, male or female.

 

While I think that Skyfire made a valiant effort at helping others with getting out of the quote "friend zone," I don't think that there is one, single, plan for getting any female friend to be a lover. I think you had great intentions Skyfire, and you inspired a great debate, but that maybe the same plan doesn't work for everyone.

 

Beec, you have a personality that attracts a certain type of women, and as long as that is the type of woman that you are attracted to, great! While i, and apparently Shysoul, may not agree with some of the things you do with or say to women, as long as you and your partner are happy, and each of you enjoys your realtionship, nobody can say that what you do is wrong.

 

Shysoul, while I agree with you the most, I dont agree with everything that you say. For example, waiting for things to fall into place does not always work. While avidly "chasing the girl" may not always be the best route either, sometimes you need to be somewhat active in showing interest or she may simply think that you are not interested. Then she way think that you put her in the "friend zone" (lets not forget that women also think about these things, they are not simply sitting around waiting for us to decide what we think they are doing, or thinking about us, they are doing it) and in that case you would be stuck in a never ending conundrum that would waste your time and hers.

 

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that there is no one right way to get any woman. Each is different and needs a different type of relationship. And if you do get put into the "friend zone," it is possible to get out, but each relationship is different, and needs to be handled differently.

 

That's just my two cents. I hope i didnt piss anyone off, and if you dissagree with anything I said please let me know, I am always interested in the different ways that everyone views the world.

[ShySoul]

For example, waiting for things to fall into place does not always work. While avidly "chasing the girl" may not always be the best route either, sometimes you need to be somewhat active in showing interest or she may simply think that you are not interested. Then she way think that you put her in the "friend zone" (lets not forget that women also think about these things, they are not simply sitting around waiting for us to decide what we think they are doing, or thinking about us, they are doing it) and in that case you would be stuck in a never ending conundrum that would waste your time and hers.

 

Thanks for being a voice of reason. I never said to not be active, actually thats what I'm against. I think its a matter of following things naturally. If your interested in someone, its going to show. It's in the way you look at her, the way you sound when you talk to her. Unless you completely freeze up and not say anything on how you feel, you'll be making progress. You'll find yourself flirting. But of course, you have to be around the person to do that.

 

I would say I'm not in the "friends zone" or in the "relationship zone" but a strange combo. So they way into the endzone is a tad of romance with a tad of friendship. Romance shows I want more, friendship shows I care enough not to push. It'll work, its just a matter of time.

 

The thing I must point out is that I went from NO dates to where I'm at now. You don't call that success...I don't know what your definition is then...but I'll look forward to hearing it when the time comes.

 

Did you say something? Sorry I was busy listening to the the girl I slept next to all night... in her bed. What's success? When you have a real girlfriend, not dates. Cause we already agreed that the definition of a date is broad. I've gone to the beach, ball games, and now a concert with this girl. Those could be classified as dates, so I'm having just as much success. And I've been out with girls before, just nothing I would call a date.

[teacup]

i have to agree with skyfire. if you cut away the denial, the helplessness, what are you left with? change. change yourself.

 

my only question is, what about girls??!! what do we do?? the situation can be reversed for females and we need good suggestions/ideas/attitude changes as well.

[SkyFire]

Shysoul,

 

You are right that there is no plan with women. There is no full proof plan to get a friend as more. Sometimes it happens naturally. The "guide" I posted, is all it is, a guide. There are no "rules" and no out-of-the-box solutions for this.

 

What I am telling people to do, is basically to improve their life. Once you start improving your life and gaining confidence, you will get your friend attracted to you, alot of the time.

 

You cannot simply say that I am wrong, because you have never tried this, simply out of ego, because you have never tried it, as I assume by what you've written. It is a given, that once a girl sees you as a friend, unless you change, you will be more than a friend.

 

Sure female friends are wonderful, 2 of my closest friends are girls. But, this is written for the guy who fell head over heels for a friend, but she does not see them as more. Sure there is a slight chance that if you do nothing, she will see you as more, Ive seen it happen. But that's rare. What I have written, makes the guy change his LIFE.

 

I have also never EVER in my life said taht being a jerk is the way to go. I am against that, for the most part, because jerks are cowards in disguise.

 

You argue against me because you have gotten a girl to be more than friend by simply being her friend. How many times has taht happened to you? Since you havent tried the things I talk about, please do not argue just for the sake of your ego. Like I said before, there is never a sure solution with things such as attraction.