Going Dutch, I'm appalled! I'm just old fashioned I guess

[Mun]

I'll be honest, when I invite my friends out to eat I pay for their meal. It's only right, I invited them. Why would this be any different with a man?

 

Shocked& Dismayed said something about how the expenses build up. I once told a man " if you don't have any money you shouldn't be dating" Yeah, I'm nice that way, but hey I meant it.

 

Also, if you don't want to spend a whole bunch of money on a girl you don't know if you are going to keep then opt for less expensive dates. Like just go out for a drink, or a picnic, maybe a free concert ( there are usually things going on-- esp in NYC)... stuff like that. Bottom line, if you don't feel good about dating him like this then either talk to him about it and see what comes of it... or don't see him again.

 

Sidenote: My dad once told my mom --when they were dating--that he wasn't going to buy her a coke because he didn't know if she would leave and take the coke with her. How nice.

[bellamcb]

This is such an issue between me and my friends!

 

I for one, always offer to pay. Well I used to because I'm married now but only since November. I agree with others who point out that women often make as much as men and times have changed.

 

I'm guessing that whatever jokes were made regarding you paying your share didn't go over well. They made things uncomfortable....which is why he was reluctant to walk you to the train (was it a train?).

 

Look, ladies- being treated like a lady doesn't mean we are supported. In fact, I'm not sure we know what it means and I'm certain most men don't know what it means. Some women don't like doors opened for them, some do. Some women like men to stand up when a woman stands up, some women find that insulting.

 

We want equal rights and equal pay. We should share the burden of dating.

 

Now- to qualify these statements: I like to be treated like a lady too- but that means I like to be regarded as feminine. I want him to cater to me when I'm sad, and to hold my chair out, hold the door open, kill spiders and just generally take the "man" role when I need him to. Also, I have been lucky in that I make a lot of money and have since I was 25 or so. So, that could taint things for me. But, my husband makes far less than I do.....and I'm totally fine with that. I really have been lucky and have a graduate degree etc., which not everyone has the luxury of pursuing.

 

And finally- for me paying for dinner, with friends or anyone always has come down to who could pay what. I am not a fan of "dutch" so I've always done, "I'll get this" knowing that he (she/friends) will get it next time.

 

I think ultimately if we talked to the date he would say something about the jokes made regarding her paying for her meal. He could be a complete idiot....he could really have cared about the $4......which is so lame....but he could also have just been fishing to see what she thought about pitching in, in which case her response didn't sit so well.

[apollocreed71]

the thing that would have bothered me was not ordering you something to drink, dang he could not order you a free cup of water. as muncea they pay, which is cool. but be specific, you need to be these days. are we meeting, are you taking me out, asking me out, whatever the case may be. i do not think he is seeing potential with you, ergo you pay your way. if he saw something he would have just paid.

 

hey it only takes one time for a person to get burned and the can become defensive. and honestly some people are just rude, i have paid for dinner and movies, girls act so nice then after you spend your money thay are gone. not all women are this way, but if that is a part of your history, it will make a guy hesitant to pay.

[ShySoul]

A $4 meal shouldn't get in the way of things if you liked each other otherwise. Yes, he should have just paid for it. It would be one thing if he didn't have the money, but he did. Or if it was a fancy restaurant, but it was $4. Just be a man and cough up the money. It isn't about the money, its about being a responsible, kind gentleman. If it bugs you that he didn't do that but you want to go out again, make sure you guys talk about what you each expect. Since it was a blind date, maybe neither of you were sure on what the guidelines were and that made for a clash in expectations.

[Mun]

. i do not think he is seeing potential with you, ergo you pay your way. if he saw something he would have just paid.

 

.

Good point Apollo.

This is why I love getting feedback from men on here. They can see things we can't or don't want to sometimes.

 

He told the friend he liked her and was happy about the date though. She would be smart to gauge his behavior towards her from now on... I know I would be paying close attention to that. Hmm... so maybe he WON'T pay for dates, but he will treat her with respect and be otherwise a great guy?

[Spirits Away]

Is he interested in you?

 

You guys made him sound like he's very interested but don't know what to do.

 

I can see that he's just not taking this so called blind date seriously. I mean, if you're offended or whatever, I don't think he really cared anyways.

 

Another question: did he even treat it like a blind "date" at all? Or was there another purpose for this meeting that made him think that this is not a date?

 

Plus, we decide whether we want to pay or not. Not you.

 

You guys are pushing it.

[Mun]

I just want to add that I'm sure there are plenty of guys out there that would pay 4 dollars for your meal on a date.

 

Just like there are plenty of girls that would pay their 50%.

 

You just have to find the one that is compatible with you.

[Spirits Away]

Some guys find the following situation a turn off, (I think it's a natural reaction to the girls since so many girls falls into it; it make the guy have a bad impression of the girl. Especially if the guy likes to be free.)

 

When the guy senses that you, out of nowhere, have this expectation of him, and whatever he does (normally), you don't like it anymore because you raised your standards up of how you think he should treat you.

 

That's very selfish; It's like trying to posess him. Don't do that.

[DN]

I don't think you can really label a woman a gold digger if a man is paying for her 4 dollar meal. Come on!

 

Also, yes things have come a long way, but most of the time men are still making more money than women. Wish things had come a really long way that we could be making the same pay for the same work.

 

Oops - at least in Canada women do get paid the same for the same work - it's the law. On average women make less overall but that has to do with many factors, such as the work they choose, staying at home with kids, etc.

 

I must say I am uneasy at the statement 'treated like a lady' because that implies you want special treatment because of your gender. And being traditional is all very well, but many traditions that were not in women's favour have been changed over the last few generations.

 

But not treating to a $4 meal does seem cheap!!

[Jetta]

Don't go out with him again. He didn't even take you on a proper date. Then leave you to walk alone, I'm assuming at night. Get rid of the loser.

[annie24]

the thing that would have bothered me was not ordering you something to drink, dang he could not order you a free cup of water. as muncea they pay, which is cool. but be specific, you need to be these days. are we meeting, are you taking me out, asking me out, whatever the case may be. i do not think he is seeing potential with you, ergo you pay your way. if he saw something he would have just paid.

quote]

 

I think apollo brings up an excellent point. Maybe he met you, didn't see any romantic potential, so he decided not to engage in the "usual courtship rituals" (ie, walking you home, buying your $4 meal.) It sounds like he treated you more like a friend...

 

Just a possibility.....

[Day_Walker]

I have problems with these terms "old fashioned" and "being treated like a lady". It seems that women who use terms like these do want preferential treatment just because they are a lady. It doesnt have some much to do with the $4 meal but it has the outlook ther person has. It seems that people have this expectation of what should happen. It seems to me that a person that is "old fashioned" should also abide by the other rules of being old fashioned because if you simply just pick and choose which issues work out best for you then thats nothing but being selfish.

 

It seems as though you have this preconceived notions of how men should act towards you on a date. If you dont have an open mind then you have to realize that most of the guys you date will not meet these expectations , now it is your choice to be that way. This issue is yours and not his. If you want a man to wine and dine you then this isnt the guy.

 

 

I am reminded of this quote by an american comedian

"Chivalry is dead and women killed it."

[wastedtime]

I'd like to add that

(1) it was not night time when he walked me most of the way to the train.

(2) He did get me a free glass water. (hahahhaha)

(3) This was not a blind date, at the end of the actual blind date he asked me "When can I see you again?"so this was our second date.

 

He said he feels so comfortable with me.

We even hugged a few times and he asked if it was alright to hold my hand as we headed to the train station. And he walked me a block away from the station, at which point he asked "Thrusday?" meaning can we meet again then.

 

Maybe he's acustomed to dating girls that pay their way, I suppose I'll consider it. Because short of that he is a cool person.

 

I just think in the beginning the guy ought to pay epsecially when everything is going so well. Then yeah I don't mind paying. It's not like I don't pay I HAVE. But I must say I think who ever makes more money could pay too.

[/b]

[Spirits Away]

fair enough, just notice that all guys here are not approving of this idea of making a date go like you wanted to.

[Mun]

We all obviously have different opinions on this. I can say for myself I have been on many dates and paid my way in the past. Interesting enough the ones that expected me to pay my way never turned into romantic relationships. They were also very concerned about getting "taken" . So of course I have formed an opinion on that and get a little worried when a man does this kind of thing.

 

I can take myself to the movies and out to dinner. A "date" to me implies a man wants to take you out and show you a nice time and pay your way. It's part of courtship, yea that's an old-fashioned term too.

 

If he is treating you like a friend then it's a good idea to treat him back as a friend.

I just don't see how a man who seems romantically interested in you would stop short of paying 4 dollars for your meal. It's kinda funny in a way. Sorry. ..Especially if he wants to see you again. Use your judgement and go with what YOU feel comfortable with. This is your life afterall.

[DN]

I realise the $4 thing seems to make this whole thing somewhat petty. And it does make him seem cheap, although I suppose he could also say that you are cheap for complaining about having to pay $4 for what you had.

 

But the general principle of who pays seems to me to be part of the changing world and I think people, women in particular, have to be careful of what they expect.

 

It is all very well to say, "I am old-fashioned and the guy should pay because that is part of courtship." But all too often that is part of a smörgåsbord approach where you get to pick and choose which parts of old-fashioned suit you. You can dodge back and forth between "old-fashioned woman ' and 'liberated, modern woman' but this will eventually bite you.

 

I have seen various thoughts expressed on this subject on this and other threads such as:

 

"If he is cheap with money he will be cheap with his time, or emotions."

 

"The man should pay for the first few dates because that is traditional"

 

"Whoever asks the other out should pay"

 

"I would never ask a man out on a date - the man should do the pursuing."

 

"If he was a gentleman, he would be pleased to pay."

 

Notice how all the above statements are manipulating the situation so that it is the man who ends up paying.

 

People then argue that it has always been that way, that is the nature of courtship and it won't change. But that ignores the fact that many things to do with courtship and relationships has changed over the last hundred years and were never static before that anyway.

 

It is illogical for women to claim equality but retreat into 'I am old-fashioned and expect to be treated as a lady" when it suits convenience. To insist on equal treatment during the day at work or anywhere else, but in the evening, when out on a date or in a relationship, to require the man to revert back to providing the finances and the little courtesies is really taking an unfair advantage.

 

It is also, in my opinion, counter-productive to a healthy and equal relationship in the long term. If you start a relationship out of balance it is likely to remain so and cause problems in the future.

 

Remember that paying for the date and also those special courtesies such as opening doors, were developed largely to compensate women for the inequalities that have since largely been overcome. If you now demand them when the sexes are supposed to be equal you are really implying that women deserve special treatment simply because they are women.

 

Think about it this way: assume you went to a restaurant with a female friend. What arrangements for paying the bill would you then make? Go Dutch (sorry Ilse!!), or one pays this time and the other the next time? Would you expect that whoever earns more money would pay proportionately more? If you go on a date with a man and don't do the same as you would when out with a female then you are expecting special treatment simply because this is a date with a member of the opposite sex. And if you don't pay your share, now or on the next date, then you are taking advantage.

 

People will argue that these mores and traditions in relationships don't change – I will argue that mores and relationships are in a constant state of change. And, as the father of two financially independent daughters who don't have to rely on their partners for their livelihood or entertainment, I am glad that is so.

[Mun]

Well DN I see your point. In my case I go out to eat pretty often with my friends so a few of these scenarios have come up. I have one friend who makes a whole lot more money than I do, but for some reason she felt a bit "special" and expected me to pay for her everytime. Her tag line was " I'm not budgeting money for the extras like this so if someone wants my company then they will pay for my meal" and I did on occasion, as I was glad to have her company...

 

Then again, she began to complain about my choice of restaurant and the food and somewhere in there I thought " I'm not dating her, why am I going to take her where she wants and pay for her food all the time? " We were friends it should have been 50/50. Or all least she could reciprocate. I stopped inviting her out to dinner--for about a year. Now we take turns. ( if it was a date and she doesn't like the place, and complains, I would probably not go out with her again. I'm paying--I get to pick.)

 

I have another friend. With her the custom was she paid once and I paid the next time. Or if we wanted to lunch, but she was broke I just paid--she did the same with me. It worked out wonderfully until she moved in with her fiance. Sudddenly she is inviting me out and splitting the check.(Her fiance doesn't work, but is very particular with how she spends her money--another topic altogether )

 

I paid for my meal but wondered what would have happened had I not brought cash or credit card along ( this particular place does not accept checks). She chose the restaurant and it was pretty pricey, I would not have opted for that place had I known I'd be paying my share, but she didn't give me a choice. ( something else to consider if the man invites you, chooses the place, but expects you to pay for your meal)

 

I guess I should admit that if I was a man I'd be inviting a woman out and paying her way--until she complained about the food or the place.

 

It be nice to live in Canada where men are women are equal because in my world they still are not. Or maybe it's just my culture...

[OceanEyes]

I don't think that there are any right or wrong answers here; some men practically insist on paying and enjoy doing so. Then again, sometimes it's easier to keep it simple and just pay for what you eat/ drink on the first couple of dates. Heck, at least if things don't work out you won't feel bad.

 

I've honestly never been out with a guy who didn't just automatically pick up the cheque and throw down his visa. I've even put down cash and had the guy say something like, "don't be silly". But I can say for sure, just because a guy pays all the time, doesn't mean that he's a keeper.

 

I think the comment "I think the man should pay because I want to feel like a lady" is pretty outdated. I think that if women want to have the same liberties as a man and be treated equally, that she should just throw down some cash without even having to be asked. Believe me, a cheapskate will stick out like a sore thumb.

[wastedtime]

It's really difficult to put how I am feeling/ thinking into words.

 

Maybe he's feeling me out to see what kind of person I am ( a user?). But I don't take people for granted. I just thought in the beginning of a courtship it was normal for the guy to pay, I don't expect him to always pay in the future.

 

But I must respect others opinion.

 

Maybe I'll pick up the tab next time, I'm not sure what I am going to do. Cause if I say something to him it might not go well. He may misunderstand me as so many have done so far on this forum.

 

 

[ShySoul]

The key to any successful relationship: compromise.

 

The guy should pay the first time or at the very least offer to pay. It respects tradition, and makes the women feel like a lady. If the women is uncomfortable with it she can say thats ok, I've got it. Or she can pay for the next activity. You still get courtship, and equality.

 

If the guy can afford it, just pony the money up. Instead of worrying about money, the impression your giving, gender equality, etc... focus on having a good time and seeing if the relationship could go somewhere.

[Mun]

Do you have another date set up with him?

 

You could try what the others said and make a comment like " you get dinner, I'll get ( movie, dessert, tickets to whatever)" at least you would get into the habit of both of you paying for something you will both enjoy. Without the uncomfortable thing of wondering how it will pan out. Know what I mean?

 

You definitely won't sound like a user if you do that... you would be contributing to the date. Not knowing who will pay is what really sucks.

[DN]

True equality, in my opinion, comes from self-suffiency. You should not need a man paying to make you feel like a lady - that feeling should come from within.

 

Everyone who is fit and capable should be able to provide for themselves and pay their own way. That means that when you meet someone and form a relationship you can share your life as equals - you enhance your life because of that person, and their emotional and financial contributions, you don't validate yourself because of them.

 

Relationships are about sharing - you depend on each other; not just one person depending on the other. But if you never meet someone, or they leave you because of divorce or death, you should also have the ability to survive in a healthy and stable way on your own, financially and emotionally. In small ways as well as large - and you should start as you mean to go on.

[Spirits Away]

Maybe he's feeling me out to see what kind of person I am

 

if not consciously, subconsciously he'll capture some things from how you reacted. When he asked "what's wrong?" he definitely know what's wrong. Just make this whole thing insignificant part of the date.

 

If you have this expectation that he should do a certain thing, it certainly is not convincing to him that you're not a "user". It's one thing to know you're not, it's another thing to give him the impression that you're not.

 

Gratitude if he shares, but don't complain when he doesn't. I don't think we're that far from misunderstanding the post. But it's nothing personal either because the post seem to have evolved.

[Mun]

This is a good topic and it's funny that it has evolved from a question about a date not paying for your meal or walking you to your ride-- to a matter of being self-sufficient and asserting your independence. Wonderful.

 

There is nothing wrong with what you want( because it's what you prefer) and the bottom line is that if this guy gives you a bad feeling then maybe he is not what you are looking for.

 

You can still be open minded and give it a shot just to make sure. Like I said earlier, he could be a great guy who just doesn't believe in paying his date's half of the bill.

 

 

PS. I like the diverse opinions--some very good ones too. Makes one think about things in a new light .

[wastedtime]

I think I am going to watch and see what happens.