Need advice about a VERY sensitive situation

[Willow_Moon]

This may or may not be an appropriate suggestion for your situation, but recently my husband convinced me to check out the local swingers scene... now I admit to being a bit uneasy with the whole idea for myself as I am extremely introverted... but for you in your situation, it may be just what you are looking for. Let me explain...

 

1. The swinger's scene is NOTHING like I imagined. I am sure there are exceptions and maybe my husband and I just got lucky in our choice of club, but one thing I really enjoy about the swinger's scene is the sexual openess and honesty. Now it seems your wife truly enjoys showing herself, but the thing that initially drove her to find this out about herself was repressed sexual expression brought on by her upbringing... am I correct? Now a nude beach or a nudist club will satisfy her need to display herself, but it will not necessarily address her sexual curiosity nor allow her to display herself openly and sexually.

 

2. The trend I see at the club is very happily married couples - like 20, 25 years wanting 'friends with benefits.' I am seeing couples become friends and having sex openly with each other without a bunch of drama... literally recreational sex. At first this notion simply wouldn't process in my brain, but the other night I watched my husband kiss another woman and there was no emotional response on my part or jealousy... I am not to the point where watching him do that gets me excited, but him doing that excited him and THAT does excite me... so we go home and get after it like little bunnies. My point being for point number 2... in a swinger's environment, your wife can enjoy being sexual without anybody expecting or wanting there to be an emotional commitment on anyone's part. If a man is watching your wife, you can feel safe that he is most likely in a long term relationship that he is very commited to and the furthest thing from being on his mind is a relationship with your wife. He is looking at her, he is enjoying himself, and he is gonna go home and be with his wife.

 

3. No means NO in the swinger's environment... it seems to be the golden rule. For my husband and I, we have agreed that in the club it is fine, but once we leave the club, then it is over. The club we go to is an offsite club which means no actual sex takes place on site... so while there may be heavy petting, flashing, etc.; there is no actual sex. The men and women at the club we go to go to extreme lengths to NOT make you uncomfortable. If you say 'no,' then there is no hurt pride... it is just assumed that your comfort level has been reached. The first few times my husband and I went, a simple cheek kiss was all I could deal with, now I can walk through the doors of the club and suspend the rules while we are there. The more experienced couples respect our choice not to participate in more advanced experiences off site, and actually do what they can to watch out for us. If some jerk does get out of line, because he doesn't know the rules of the club, it is freaky how many people are suddenly there to protect you. Un-invited touching and such is not tolerated.

 

4. There are different levels of swingers - my husband and I are considered VERY soft swingers... meaning basically that we heavily flirt while we are in the club... Most soft swing couples simply watch or like to be watched, but never actually engage in sex with another couple. Other couples very openly have sex with multiple couples all the time. The important thing is that most experienced swingers are unwilling to do anything they are uncomfortable with or that makes their partner uncomfortable. Nor will swingers ever do anything with just one of you... complete openess is expected and anything less is frowned upon and considered cheating. The mantra of swinger's is communication, communication, communication!!

 

5. I am overweight - short and fat, and my husband is skinny as a rail - tall and lanky and we both are openly admired at the club. Most people at the club are in no way supermodels... actually most are way far from it, but the people we have encountered so far celebrate the differences and 'flaws.' There is one woman at the club who happens to be 'perfect,' but I can't muster up any jealousy of her simply because one gentleman confided to me that he has never been able to cum with her, because her body is too perfect... it is as if she isn't real, and there are no imperfections - her body tells no story.

 

6. Just because you go to a swinger's club, does not mean you are a swinger. You can go to the club and just enjoy the sexual freedom, tension, and buzz and never ever take it any further than that. You can go to an 'on site' club and enjoy voyerism to probably any degree you are comfortable, and certainly your wife can display herself openly and sexually. If you do decide to take it further, discretion is the norm. A lot of the women are bi or bi-curious, while most of the men are strictly straight - in case you were wondering.

 

As I said before, maybe this is an option for you and maybe it isn't... I don't know, but if you want to look into it, I suggest link removed

[funnyCAgirl]

This is a very interesting thread and I feel kinda conflicted about what to say.

 

Your wife may be seeking the approval from others she never got before, but more than anything she wants YOUR approval. I believe she is more and more encouraged by the things you say to make her feel good - although I know your intentions are not bad. She may think the two of you are enjoying this together. If you were to tell her that you are proud of her for being assertive, but that you find her most sexy with some things covered in public that would make a huge impact. In your considerateness of her mental health you just might be making things worse by encouraging her. Encouraging her to be beautiful and not naked is a much safer healthier path.

 

I know from being a woman that some things covered sends the right message even if your body is smoking hot. Women in these types of enviornments are looked at in a degrading way and set themselves up for critisisms. She could be in for VERY harsh pain if she keeps this up. Far worse then if she does not keep up this exercise. What if she hears these people's comments? What if she is attacked or harassed? What if it goes too far?

 

I also feel funny reading your critisisms. Wow it is painful to think that people say those things and that you are still able to encourage her. It also must be very hard to list the things you find unattractive about her body.

 

I hope that you will try to encourage her to keep her wild side to her mental fantasies and to your bedroom. It scares me that she is pushing further and further out there.

 

Let us know how it goes.

[scott4321]

Hello again, all.

 

After my previous post, I intended to let the thread die, since my original set of questions had been answered. Seemed like the correct "e-thing" to do, since this is a discussion forum, and not a personal diary.

 

Enough of you seemed concerned about Sara's longer-term welfare, though, and funnyCAgirl's specific request to "let us know how it goes" made me think that an update was OK.

 

First, thanks again to everyone who helped me "find my way" through this situation. The most influential---and likely not intended that way, since they were just opening remarks on a few posts---were what a wonderful, loving husband I must be to care so much about about my wife's happiness. Not because it made me think I was anything special, or because it fed my ego, but because what you said was exactly how I hoped/wanted/wished/dreamed that Sara felt about me. If what I was trying to work out and make happen for her made some of you---strangers---think I was special, I must be on the right track, I figured.

 

So. It has been a hot, and extremely sexually-charged, sex-filled Summer. It is clear that an entire lifetime's-worth of pent-up sexual energy, courtesy of a repressive family situation (parents) and religion, couldn't be contained, and losing the negative feelings she had about her own body were the key to letting it out.

 

Maybe her fairly extreme behavior since is an over-reaction that will mellow over time, and maybe not. If I had to guess, I'd say no. The excitement that showing herself to people creates is of a fundamentally different kind than anything else. Much more "animal-like," is the best way to describe it. The repetition and consistency is also telling, as is the way she tunes out unappreciative responses.

 

In short, the soft spoken, shy, self-effacing, sunshine-smiled, school-girlish redhead I married; who literally cried with shame upon first admitting what excited her sexually, has become the confident, sexy magazine cover girl she used to want my comments on. (That was her initial "scouting technique" of my feelings toward women who showed off their bodies.) Some minor---but telling---confidence indicators in her daily life are she now sleeps completely naked every night; wears as little as possible around the house the rest of the time; and she stopped putting adhesive tape over her huge "outie" to keep it from showing through her clothes. No fanfare about any of those things, either. She just started doing them because it felt right.

 

As for deliberate, sexually-specific stuff, there isn't much more she can do, so it hasn't grown or escalated much. The key is that even though other people are part of the "exhibitionism dynamic," she really only shows herself FOR herself. And there's only so much that can be shown, so it is self-limiting. She did completely wax off what little pubic hair she had (just a faint ginger colored line in front, and almost nothing between her legs), and has kept it off, but that's it. No piercings or tattoos. (The way she looked at another girl in a strip club last month, I was sure that subject would come up, but it hasn't.) Her reportoire of display situations has grown, but that's self-limiting as well. Also, she now has three bikinis, several pairs of super low-cut shorts, never wears shoes when she can wear sandals, and never wears sandals when she can be barefoot, and knows how to tie virtually any shirt in such a way that everything is visible from the side.

 

Several of you expressed concern that dressing like that makes her look trashy and over-eager instead of classy-sexy, and you're right, but nothing has changed there either. The subtleties are non-existent in Sara's mind. More skin = more exciting is still the equation. (Remember, what she does is for herself, not others. She's not trying to attract men.)

 

I guess there was one exception to "it isn't escalating" two weekends ago, when we tracked down and went to an all-nude strip club two hours away where there was very little "dancing" going on. It was a small, dark, and cave-like place, and what was obviously wanted and expected by the customers were repeated, highly explicit, legs-apart-as-far-as-possible, in every position possible, semi-static genital display poses from the girls. It was going on when we walked in, and the promised amateur contest was nowhere in evidence. The manager said Sara could audition for a job if she wanted to, though, but just being topless wasn't an option. His was an all-nude club. The place was so dingy and low class dumpy I didn't think she'd be interested at all, but I was wrong. I'm sure the Freudian/analyst types can explain her attraction to the humiliation part of what she likes, but I can't, and I was surprised (then and now) how important that component is. So, she spent the next 45 minutes (one rotation of the several little stages scattered about the room) proving beyond a doubt to the dozen customers that she was, absolutely, a female. As usual, she had no props or professional "moves." She just undressed and showed everything to any guy who looked her way. Most just dismissed her and kept looking at their previous favorite when the index-to-the-next-mini-stage occurred, but a few seemed attracted to Sara's eagerness and lack of sophistication. "Look at me here. I WANT you to!" was her sole message, and it came through loud and clear.

 

Afterward, both on the way home and at home, she said about one guy it was the first time she ever felt like a stranger would have had sex with her if SHE wanted it... that she was in control... and liked it very much. I'm not a woman, but I can imagine how exciting that would be.

 

As for me, no breakthroughs or changes of any kind. I still usually climax as part of just getting an erection, and when I do manage to achieve one without "firing," Sara uses her mouth exclusively. Then it only takes one, or sometimes two, sucking licks before it starts. Five seconds max is it, literally, so we have still not had intercourse, and probably never will. (And no, the "clamp off and hold it" technique does NOT work. All that happens is the instant the pressure is off, the climax continues.) I'm certain that the nerves in that part of my body developed abnormally, a side effect of the probable hormonal situation that left me so small. I'm so far off the range-of-normal scale in both areas it really can't be anything else.

 

But---and here is why I'm mentioning all that---I consider my "love life" to be outstanding: I am married to an outrageously sexy woman who climaxes (hard!) as often as 10 times a day; who says it is my doing even when my mouth and/or hands aren't around and she does it to herself. And I climax so often that except in the morning, they are dry. And what causes these "erection-gasms" is thinking of my wife, or seeing her, or being touched by her. That other men don't think her body is attractive doesn't bother me a bit. Her being 100% natural, and untouched by surgery means she looks EXACTLY the way she is SUPPOSED to look: Not all women's breasts are are large and/or melon-shaped, not all their hips flare, they don't all have demure little "innie" navels, and not all skin turns bronze in the sun. Some women have none of those characteristics. In fact, some have the opposite of them. And one woman, at least, has the opposite of all of them. So what?

 

But I digress... the point is if Sara and I have a great love life, any couple can. We've both discovered that sex is much more a matter of what's in our heart, and in our head, than in our mirror.

 

That's it for now.

 

Peace and love to all.

 

Scott

[scott4321]

Hi again.

 

I was just carefully re-reading everyone's input to this thread (it's amazing what you miss on the first pass, sometimes), and saw that I never responded to Willow_Moon's suggestion that my wife and I check out "swinging."

 

Willow_Moon, the effort you took to go into such detail is much appreciated, but I'm afraid the entire concept is out of the question for me, personally, regardless of what Sara might think. As in, knee-jerk unthinkable. I am wholly inadequate sexually by every common definition, and would not care to try to find two MORE people on this planet who would understand, and be willing to work with and around it. The odds would be astronomical, and the ridicule in every other case certain.

 

You'd have to be a guy to understand, I think. But again, thanks for the suggestion. As with gifts, on a forum such as this, it's the thought that counts!

 

Another post I intended to respond to was funnyCAgirl's, but I ran so long in my "general update" that I never did. Here goes:

 

I understand what you mean about female exhibitionism being risky in several ways, but you are assuming that what she's doing is approval-based. As in, she wants/needs approval from me. But that's putting the cart before the horse... I never imagined any of this until she confided her fantasies to me. It was wholly voluntary, and initiated by her. All I did was avoid giving her further cause to be self-conscious or ashamed of what she liked and wanted. She's told me since that being looked at goes back to her earliest sexual thoughts, and that she contrived to show herself to the brothers of several girlfriends when on sleepovers beginning in the seventh grade.

 

In short, I'm VERY definitely following, not leading.

 

Regarding your point that showing too much becomes counterproductive for women when it passes a certain point---that looking sexy is a lot more complex and subtle than that---I agree. But Sara doesn't. It doesn't compute with her at all, in fact. Her only thought when she gets turned on is being seen completely naked, and (preferably) in a situation where she can't cover up and/or stop guys from looking. The "viewed as a sexual object" thing most women violently object to happens to be Sara's deepest sexual trigger, in other words.

 

Finally, you say that it must me tough for me to hear a lot of the insults people say to her, and still encourage her. And yes, it can be. Sometimes I manage to keep focussed on her pleasure, and let the comments just slide off; other times I cringe. I have definitely had daydreams of moving to Europe where the breast size & shape thing isn't so unforgiving. But do I wish I could change how Sara looks to satisfy her critics? Absolutely not. What she "has" is how she was born and is 100% natural. And I truly find it infinitely sexier and more beautiful than all the lamp tans, botox, liposuction, dyed hair w/extensions, tooth veneers, nose jobs, and cheek/chin/breast implants in the world.

 

I guess that makes me "old school," huh? LOL!

 

As for "listing the things I find unattractive about her body" being difficult, I never even thought about it, because they are what others find unattractive. Deviations from Centerfold-ness. The only exception has been recently, since she stopped wearing the adhesive tape. The bump that shows now through some dresses and tight-fitting tops is so conspicuous it's visually jarring, even to me. (When she wears something that bares her stomach completely, her navel is definitely unusual, but natural. When covered and showing through, it looks like something that isn't part of her body is trapped under the fabric.)

 

And in case someone reads that who didn't read the earliest posts of this thread, not all "outies" are umbilical hernias, and of those that aren't, not all can be made into "innies" with surgery. It depends on how extensively the abdoninal wall/fascia would be involved in a reconstruction. And the more completely inside-out and larger the diameter, the riskier (that you'll end up with something aesthetically worse than you started with), and more medically serious the procedure. So, besides never showing a hint of embarrassment about her "outie" (since deciding to follow her fantasies, anyway), Sara isn't a candidate for a surgical "fix" even if she wanted it.

 

So. Everyone replied to now. I think. I definitely do realize that as many here fear for Sara's mental health and physical safety as applaud her for following her sexual desires, but what's there to say to that? All that's definite---known---is, so far, all is well, and Sara is more at peace with herself than ever before. She feels (what else could it be?) that what she once feared were "dirty" thoughts, are reasonably harmless, and she's within her rights as a woman to act them out.

 

And, as always, I remain aware that I can't possibly be objective, given my own physical situation. I feel OK with my conclusions, though, because I fell in love with her, married her, and was in love with her before the fantasy-disclosure began.

 

Scott

[MAMAPUTE]

I tried putting myself in her shoes. I don't know if this is the right thing to do, but it might save her embarrassment and keep you from unintenionally hurting her.

 

How about you approach this a different way. Try not making it about her. Let her keep her confidence.

You can make it about you.

 

Tell her it really bothers you that you have to share her with everyone else. Tell her it may be old-fashioned but you just want her for yourself. Tell her it bothers you that other men are looking at her.

 

Then give her the sexy lingerie for your private bedroom moments.

[WeLuv2ShowHer]

My advice to you since you seem to have resigned yourself let her be herself, is to enjoy this. My wife is very very much like yours. And it's something that she kept hidden until I found out through a friend of a friend. I've grown to be fully accepting of her quirk and it's gotten to be something that I've found that I could deal with and have accepted her needs to be seen. We both get into it. I've grown to love watching her being watched. It's so sexual and such a tremendous rush for both of us. And my wife is like yours in that it seems her satisfaction only comes with her being able to show everything. And I mean everything in all it's glory. You seem to be becoming more use to the concept, which is good since you say you don't feel she will stop this behavior. So enjoy it...... Make the most of it. I did and have never looked back. Never had any regrets and to be honest I'm not embarrassed by her behavior any more. So you don't be either. I have a wonderful wife that I'm very very proud of. She does have this quirk in her psyche that's been with her since puberty that she had to keep secret from me for much to much of our marriage. To many years wasted in my opinion. You are a lucky man. As am I. Good luck and I'd love to hear from you.

[WeLuv2ShowHer]

By the way. I forgot to mention that your wife is the only other person I've known that's like my wife. I really did think she was the only woman like this. It's really good to know she's not alone.