scott4321

Interesting thread, at several levels. My wife is both a hardcore exhibitionist (she enters amateur-night contests at nude strip clubs, for example), and a something of a "poster child" for unconventional beauty, so I've seen a lot of what's being discussed under what amount to laboratory conditions. Bottom line: Men know what they like and want, and centerfold perfection is WAY high on the list. It is so common and strong that I'm sure there's a genetic component, in fact. Some sort of healthy-chromosome radar at work... (Evolutionary anthropology, anyone?) My wife persists in thinking that being more daring in what she shows, and how she shows it, will make up for these departures from "centerfold-ness," but I've never seen it really work that way. Once over their shock and surprise, her observers' interest disappears quickly. (Out of many dozens of creative attempts to show herself to male friends and acquaintences at our apartment---never mind the clubs---the only guys who didn't feel so uncomfortable that they left soon after seeing her naked, were those who thought it was a lead-up to some easy sex for themselves. Once they discovered that wasn't the case, they disappeared too.) So, on the question of whether the vast majority of men base their evaluation of a woman's OVERALL desirabilty on a handful of superficial physical details, the answer is definitely yes. Sad but true.

Being small past a certain point does suggest a possible AIS situation, n83. That's where the 3.5" number came from. Both grade 1 and grade 2 are viable, and present as externally normal. Just small. I'd be willing to bet that if examined, the guy in question would have "the scar"... a 95% reliable sign. A blood test is the only certain way to know, of course. There are none that I know of.

Not very, but more than most people think Any adult male smaller than 3.5 inches or so is edging into AIS territory. Sounds strange, but there is actually a smooth spectrum of people---both (nominally) male and female---who have an increasing number of the other sex's genital characteristics, right up to the cross-over point. Too near the middle zone, and the person isn't sexually viable (in the reproductive sense). It involves a fetus' ability to respond to certain hormones when only a few weeks old. Sometimes it is genetically inherited, and sometimes not. On the side of small guys, remember that they are acutely aware of the situation, and so (might) be more inclined toward creativity, technique, and so forth; while the large guys (might) assume that that's all they need, and never understand that there's more to physical loving than just being "hung."

Justplaying5050, Your question, "How much does size matter to women?" is flawed. It assumes that all women feel the same about the matter. They don't. Some care a lot, to where it is a "must have" for them; while others don't care at all. It's the act that they are excited by... the sharing and togetherness. Bottom line: Being large is rarely seen as a problem by any girl, while being small is definitely seen as a problem by some of them. Doesn't sound as though you have anything to worry about, though.

Sonjam, "Not so long ago" actually was, I think. About this time last year. A link to the original thread was put into another thread I started a week or so ago, so maybe you read the original recently without realizing how old it was? (Just speculating) And in the name of accuracy, my original apprehension was far more about how people reacted to Sara's unconventional beauty than about what she did or wanted to do. Something that is still the hardest part, BTW. So, yes, my acceptance did evolve. What allowed it was exactly what I'm talking about in this thread... my eventual understanding of the dynamics of loving a person for who they actually are instead of for how closely they map to your notions of "perfection." The former unfolds, the latter is what attracted you to them in the first place. Because that's usually the root cause of marriage break-ups, isn't it? People use phrases like, "We grew apart." I disagree with that completely. Both partners were complete packages upon meeting. It's the incremental, intimate disclosure of that completeness that do couples in. The relationship equivalent of Nicholson's famous line, "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" Because indeed, most people can't. All I'm suggesting in this thread is to understand that such "unfolding" is a normal thing, and to embrace what's disclosed instead of resist or deny it, is a response that's rarely even considered, never mind employed. Scott

Hi all. This thread deserves a bit of explanation. Last summer, my wife made it known (gently but insistently), that she truly would like to try bringing some of her fantasies to life. It was in conjuction with an overall "assertiveness awakening" she was going through. So, she/we gave it a go, she liked it even more than she expected, wanted still more, and the rest is history. But at the time, it wasn't so easy, and I came to eNot seeking advice and support. It was given in spades. So, I thought it only proper to take what I learned from the experience, and pass it back to those who helped me, in case I could do them some good. To return the favor, in a sense. I didn't distill it all that well, I see (upon re-reading), but I can tell by the replies that it was understood, if not elegantly expressed. Let me try it again: NO ONE is "normal," and expecting them to be, or worse, trying to make them normal, is a fool's game. Meaning? Two people who are truly lifemates must understand that at a cellular level--and act on it when necessary--by converting their revulsion/fear/outrage/disgust/etc. into understanding and support, and then offer that transformed emotion back as love. If is Powerful Stuff, I assure you. So powerful that it will scare you at first. nmduipd Has it become arousing to me, too? Most of the time. When something is planned, almost always. When she does something that catches me by surprise, maybe half the time. Am I permitting it just for her sake? That's one of those presumptive questions. It isn't that simple. I guess it started that way, but since I've come to understand how precious (to her) that permission is, I'd feel somebody was taking something away from me if I didn't have that gift to give her anymore. Which means, I think, the answer is, "no." Is she doing anything similiar for me? Yes. It's entirely different in nature, but identical in concept. Definitely "exception processing." Is it just the exception handling mentality that makes it possible? Yes, I think so. Why did I call it, "Living with the price"? To emphasize and make clear the conscious, unilateral nature of "exception handling" in the beginning, when it's first offered. It's not an exchange, it's a gift, with no guarantee of anything. (That I think it works frighteningly well, and would in virtually every case, is beside the point. Your heart and head must be in the right place to do such things, and if calculation is present, they're not.) Scout Another way of interpreting that poll is with the presumption that infidelity is only the symptom of a problem, and not the problem itself. Then doors open. Like this: when your mate can't find what he/she needs at home, they'll find it elsewhere, yes? So, remove the need for them to look elsewhere by letting them find it at home, with you. Scott

Hi all. Many, if not most, posts on this forum deal with fidelity, lack of sexual interest, and the like. A thought: maybe human beings in general--of either sex--simply aren't made in a way that allows conventional thinking to work. And to even try to "stay conventional" is like trying to teach a cow to dance: doing so will only frustrate you, and upset the cow. My wife and I both have unusual sexual needs (me physically, her psychologically), but found a way to meet them and still stay together. Quite happily, too. So... if you are in a situation that is headed downhill, what is there to lose by trying something "outside the box?" The worst that can happen is such experimentation could result your relationship ending sooner than it would otherwise. But that it will end if you don't do something, isn't in doubt for many of you, right? The kind of thing I'm referring to is conceptually very simple. Just take the time to discover what your lover's most secret fantasies are, and then help them come true. Not all are reasonable, possible, or even safe, but many are, and then you can open the door on an entire new sexual world for both of you. My wife, for example, finally told me how much having men look at her body excited her, and letting her act on that set things into motion which proved it is essentially the only thing that excites her. I'm certain that if she'd try to surpress that need on my account, or I tried to supress it, the stress and unhappiness would have grown (taking many forms), until we wouldn't be together any more. What happened when neither of us tried to deny it, though, was magical: Intimacy and trust deeper and stronger than most people ever know. Rethinking what's realistic is all that's required to "live with the price," too, nothing more. In my marriage, that price is seeing other guys look at her body. That's it. (And I don't mean tight jeans and a see-through top, either. I mean prolonged, completely naked, leg-spreading type stuff at basement strip clubs... so I know what I'm talking about, and not just suggesting you do something in a, "Here, you taste this first!" sort of way.) Is it hard? Not any more. Not after I realized how much more I meant to her for permitting such an unconventional thing. Such "exception processing" is the very essense of being someone's mate, yes? I'm certain that there's at least a chance such an approach will create a new bond that's stronger than you've ever known before. And if it doesn't work, nothing's lost if things were headed for the dumpster anyway. Scott

In re-reading last year's thread (the one linked to in the second post of this thread), to see if I missed anyone's thoughts when I "went off the air" unexpectedly, I just saw the last two responses on the last page, for the first time. They were added a month or so after I was gone, by a guy called WeLove2ShowHer. They were, says the system, the only two posts he ever made on any of the eNot boards. ??? Not only would I like to contact him as invited, but now that I think about it, anyone else who is in a relationship like mine. On either side of it, husband/boyfriend or wife/girlfriend. So, if you're still out there, WeLoveToShowHer, by all means send me a PM. Ditto for anyone else who's either currently or was once involved in something similiar--again on either side of it--or from anyone who might know of other sites where such a person could be found. As WLTSH said, there aren't many of us around. I've never even spoken/written to another, never mind met one. Comparing notes would certainly be interesting, and likely useful. Thanks again, Scott

HB, Maybe this will help you sort out your feelings: Sex with one's mate, while physically identical to sex with a stranger, couldn't be more different. The latter is purely hormonal, and driven by evolutionary biology. Men are likely to indulge in such "sport" encounters more often than women, but not necessarily. What's going on between husbands and wives who've been together for a while is much closer to gift-giving. A mutual exchange of pleasure. It's a conscious manipulation of the physical sensations inherent to the act, tailored to the mind of your lover. The dynamic is one of the more you give, the more you receive. There are no limits to how far it can go. The catch is, unless the desire keeps returning, unbidden, to engage in this exchange, the physicality alone isn't enough. As you've discovered. Do you think of your wife as an extension of yourself, in a way that makes you think you're two bodies, minds, and hearts which comprise a single being? The two of you as one, experiencing Life as a symbiotic team of two? You probably did once, or you wouldn't have married... So, what changed since? ONLY your wife's weight and desire to get in shape? Happiness depends on four things, no more, and no less (assuming good health): Doing something you enjoy, in a place you like, having something to look forward to, and someone to share it with. Be sure you correctly identify the ones that are lacking, before blaming feelings of unhappiness on the ones you have. Think about your marriage in these terms--with absolute honesty--and the path OUT of the woods in which you find yourself will become clear. Scott

HB, You've heard it before, and I assure you it's true: The largest erogenous zone in the human body is the brain. You see what you want to see, based on what's in your heart. Another way to think of it is that sexual attraction for your mate (I'm not talking about the chemical flare-up of lust you might feel--briefly--toward some model you meet at a party... I mean the between husband/wife type of sexual attraction), is a biological lie detector that can't be fooled. Somehow, she's lost your respect, and (it sounds like), your affection. Determine the cause of that collapse, and fix it, and she'll be beautiful and hot once again. If you can't determine it, or you do and it "doesn't fix," your marriage is over in reality, if not yet legally. There's a pool of thousands of people here who will help you with the search & fix attempt, if you will let them. I recommend you listen especially well to the women. Best of luck, Scott

Wow. Thanks so much for the kind words, nikkers. They're especially meaningful from a woman. And for all the hours of thinking, worrying, and so forth that being with Sara has caused in the last year, it never occurred to me that I was "sticking up for" something. But that's exactly the situation, isn't it? Thanks for the insight... As for suspecting that you'd have given up if in my situation, I doubt it. Because that situation also means unconditional acceptance and love directed at me, by her, as well. And a lovelier human being with a purer heart and greater zest for Life doesn't exist. It's hard to explain, but my letting her do what she enjoys without going all Male-possesive on her is something she realizes is uncommon, and treasures it accordingly. (She thanks me after every instance. It sounds corny, but she literally does. Just a whisper in my ear...) Scott

No, not really, I guess... An attempt to bring Ocean Eyes and Annie24 up to date just took off. (Which is what I meant at the end of my last post about simply telling this stuff relieves some of the stress... It makes me feel like I might have problems, but, hey, like, I'm... Not Alone. ) Which isn't to say that anyone who might want to comment, suggest, or whatever, shouldn't. Not at all. There were some "You seem to really love your wife, and are dealing with some tough stuff well," types of responses last year that made me feel great. Anonymous approval is a powerful thing. The many cautionary comments kept me aware of the risks, too. Something you can easily lose focus on in the heat of sexual chemistry. Again, all the best. (And wonderful sex for everyone, forever!) Scott

An addendum to last night's post, after re-reading it today: I realize that Sara's and my relationship has taken a turn which completely removes it from the mainstream, and talking about it here might not be the right place. If I offended anyone, my apologies. I looked through all of eNot but couldn't find a specific area to discuss anomalous situations. (It was a moderator who moved my original thread to here, BTW) But, if there's a more suitable forum now, by all means move it again. Thanks. Anyway, to those of you (probably quite a few, now) who are inclined to regard Sara and I as some sort of freaks, please keep in mind that it's as simple as everyone ever born having no choice but to play the cards they're dealt. And that's all she does, and all I'm doing. Remember, Sara is just a pale little wisp of a girl with needs that her body "can't cash," visually speaking, and to most men nothing is more important than how a woman looks. Meaning, if she was a bombshell, she'd just be another of the countless Web knockouts who show their stuff, or a Vegas showgirl with a "kink," and few would think less of her for it (in this day and age, anyway). Right? So, all that's different is how she doesn't let an imperfect body keep her from doing what she likes, wants, and needs. That's the scandal. Because not being perfect means her only options are the crudest, all-nude basement strip clubs, unsuspecting pizza delivery guys, ambushing people we invite to our apartment, and so forth. It's so frustrating, because it's so harmless... errrrr! (vent mode on) All she wants is for many men to look at her instead of one, doing the things that women everywhere have done in private with their mates since the dawn of time. That's it. I freely admit that my own physical situation has probably made me more tolerant and accepting of Sara's needs than would otherwise be the case, and maybe she has taken advantage of that over time. In fact, looking back, I'm sure it's true because except for times when there was clearly a serious legal issue at stake (such as showing herself to adolescent boys), I've never told her "no" to anything she wanted to try sexually. So I guess I'm a pushover... But I'm also quite certain that a "normal" guy who tried to control her would only be starting endless arguments, and she'd soon leave him and do what she wanted, anyway. Meaning, the world wouldn't be spared having to deal with her. (That last meant as sarcasm.) Sorry if I sounded bitter there, but it IS sometimes frustrating. I honestly think that being so useless sexually myself (physically speaking), that I'm wired differently mentally than other men. ALL I see when Sara dances naked, opens her legs at strangers, and the hundred other "nasty" things she likes, is a breathtakingly beautiful young lady pursuing an orgasm. Period. And since I love her with all my heart, I'm helpless to do anything but help her achieve it. Her latest admission, that the engine which drives her at the deepest levels is a craving for humiliation and punishment for looking and acting the way she does---neither of which she asked for or can help---is sad, I suppose, but there it is. The good news is that understanding is only an abstraction, and has nothing to do with the strength of the pleasure she receives from being treated that way. A final, anticipatory comment to those who have decided "those two sickos deserve each other..." Men, thoroughly imagine for a minute having a downward/sideways curving penis that's only the size of last two inches your index finger when fully hard, and fifteen seconds is the longest you've ever delayed ejaculating. Most of the time it happens while simply becoming hard, in fact. Don't forget green-grape-sized testicles that rarely drop from your body. Would that change your sex life? Or, hey... what you were willing to deal with to even have a sex life? And ladies, all you have to do to walk in Sara's shoes is imagine yourself waking up tomorrow with an adolescently snake-slender, hipless, buttless body; your (likely) little "innie" navel replaced with an irregularly lumpy, completely inside-out, used-ball-of-chewing-gum-textured bulge the size of a lime; your breasts just tiny, upturned, antenna-like points the shape of miniature bananas; and untannable skin so pale it isn't just white, it glows white. Throw in carrot orange hair, a mild overbite, a few crooked teeth (all healthy and beautifully white, though ), a slightly crossed left eye (when you get tired), and top it all off with an unbelievably strong sexual appetite, where the only thing that turns you on is having men see you naked. The more explicitly so, the better, in fact... Would that change your sex life??? I think so. Sorry. I had to get a bit of frustration out... Well, that's what forums are for too, sometimes, right? (The theraputic nature of writing to unknown, but not uncaring, strangers in this way is a wonderful thing for people who are trying to deal with unconventional situations. I'd didn't realize until returning the other day to eNot how much it helps.) Whew. Off to the grocery store I go. (Day off, and lovin' it!) All the best, Scott

Ah. Sara's asleep, so here's my chance: Annie24 -- Since all this started and she really got "going," there's been no change in how she dresses in public. Her exhibitionism is all about exciting herself, not others, so actually looking good in the fashion sense has little importance anymore. Showing as much skin as possible is really all she cares about when selecting clothes and creating outfits. And, (and here's a change from a year ago), I've come to accept it completely. There are as many stares and rude comments as ever, but I finally decided it's one of those "acknowledge and accept what you can't change" things that the happiness philosophers speak of. Ocean Eyes -- What's up is there has been a shift in the tone of what she likes. In the same way she hinted her way into acting out her fantasies last year, she gradually let me know there was a Part 2 to all this. Which is that she now says loving to be naked in front of men is nasty and wrong, which means she is a slutty, nasty girl, and thereforeeee needs to be punished for it. Not by making her stop, of course, but by being told/made to do (and submit to) even more humiliating and embarrassing things than she what she was being punished for having done in the first place. A absurd sort of Catch-22 logic, to be sure, but one that's common to women (and some men, though less frequently) whose sexual deveopment in adolesense was severely interfered with by repeated episodes of physical and emotional violence related to that sexual development. (I've been reading.) And boy, was she ever. Abused, that is. But that's another thread. (Or at least another post.) For now, I'll just say that her entire family was in on much of it, and her father in particular was a beast. So, those of you who thought last summer that Sara must be psychologically damaged in some way to enjoy displaying her body so much, were more right than I thought at the time. What's equally true, though, is that as "bent" as her needs might be, her ability to enjoy sex wasn't affected. How she achieves the enjoyment was merely re-directed. All of which means, if you're reading between the lines, is that when she's aroused, she wants me to be very much In Charge, and outwardly disapproving to the point of verbal abuse and administering moderate physical pain. Specifically---ladies, please skip this part---by whipping her directly between her legs with a riding crop. One that SHE bought, brought home, and INSISTED that I use on her there. In fact, at first, she did it to herself, then handed me the whip and kept her hand on my wrist to show precisely how hard to do it. Then, the final step was restraint. Her favorite position by far is having her wrists cuffed together above her head, and ankles and knees held wide apart with soft ropes. (She supervised with the installation of large eye-bolts to our futon frame to have something to attach these to.) How often does she want/need this? Now that the "secret's out" I'm amazed she waited as long as she did to tell me. Making a completed cycle of becoming turned on, stripping/exposing herself in some fashion, then having sex (I'm still limited to my mouth, hands, and some, um, large rubber objects to ravish her with) that's interspersed with punishment for being a "bad, dirty, and nasty girl," is satisfying for her in a way nothing else is. The cycle sometimes takes most of an entire day. Now, the $64,000 question... How do I manage to do such things to her, the love of my life? Well, it wasn't easy at first. Not at all. But she managed to incrementally convince me that if it's what she wants, it's as much an act of love as any other desired intimate contact. So, call me liberated. Or something. It's a part of what we do now, pretty much every time, and overall, our sex life has never been better. Being "punished" somehow expunges the guilt she feels for liking sex so much, and lessens her self-esteem issues for a while. Whew. Wasn't sure I could share all that. e-forums are certainly useful, especially when it comes to complicated and/or controversial sexual issues, aren't they? That's it for now. Scott

Well, crap... I answered both Annie and Ocean Eyes, but lost the post from some sort of time out. (I logged back in and tried some "back" keys, but never found it.) Anybody know the time limit so I can set an alarm clock or something? (Does examining the formatted post restart the clock?) Or is there some user-controllable way to override it? Thanks. Scott Annie and Ocean Eyes: I'll try again tomorrow. Gotta run this eveining.

Yup, that's it, DN. Many thanks!

Hello again, eNot/marriage forum-ers... It's been a year later this summer since my last post, and I expected to have been dropped by now for inactivity. Not so. Makes a guy feel wanted not to have to re-register Anyhow, my last involvement started as something pretty straightforward, but ended up triggering a four-page thread that lasted many weeks. What brings me back is, first, a return to the Net in general. A stolen laptop, followed by a crapped-out monitor on an ancient desktop backup, left me disconnected since last Fall. Neither my wife or I make much money, so all we could do was wait. Things have improved considerably in that regard however (though it took moving from the Midwest to a mountain state to make it happen--can you say "domestic energy boom?"), and I hope to stay on line for the duration this time. I wish I knew how to insert a clickable link into this post that points to the other thread, because it's still in the archive... maybe somebody who knows that stuff can? If not, a search on author ought to work. I don't recall posting in any/many other forums than this one. For those who'd rather not bother with four pages of stuff, here's the capsule version: My outwardly-shy-when-we-met wife told me after we married that she wanted to act out her exhibitionistic fantasies (they were well known to me), and asked my permission to do so. They were pretty extreme, but I said OK, and soon found myself actually involved, facilitating her displays. I came to eNot asking for a combination of assistance in thinking through what was happening, and moral support. The opinions ranged from she/we needed counseling; to the, "it's refreshing to see a man so open minded and unconditionally loving" sort... the split was about 50/50. I did promise several posters that I'd follow up with occasional updates, but never did because of the aforementioned Netlessness. The good news is that it has been long enough for significant changes to have occurred regarding Sara. There's plenty to tell. The bad news is that many who were following the thread won't know it's active again. Anyway, it just occurred to me I'd better see if this actually posts before typing any more. Scott

Hi again. I was just carefully re-reading everyone's input to this thread (it's amazing what you miss on the first pass, sometimes), and saw that I never responded to Willow_Moon's suggestion that my wife and I check out "swinging." Willow_Moon, the effort you took to go into such detail is much appreciated, but I'm afraid the entire concept is out of the question for me, personally, regardless of what Sara might think. As in, knee-jerk unthinkable. I am wholly inadequate sexually by every common definition, and would not care to try to find two MORE people on this planet who would understand, and be willing to work with and around it. The odds would be astronomical, and the ridicule in every other case certain. You'd have to be a guy to understand, I think. But again, thanks for the suggestion. As with gifts, on a forum such as this, it's the thought that counts! Another post I intended to respond to was funnyCAgirl's, but I ran so long in my "general update" that I never did. Here goes: I understand what you mean about female exhibitionism being risky in several ways, but you are assuming that what she's doing is approval-based. As in, she wants/needs approval from me. But that's putting the cart before the horse... I never imagined any of this until she confided her fantasies to me. It was wholly voluntary, and initiated by her. All I did was avoid giving her further cause to be self-conscious or ashamed of what she liked and wanted. She's told me since that being looked at goes back to her earliest sexual thoughts, and that she contrived to show herself to the brothers of several girlfriends when on sleepovers beginning in the seventh grade. In short, I'm VERY definitely following, not leading. Regarding your point that showing too much becomes counterproductive for women when it passes a certain point---that looking sexy is a lot more complex and subtle than that---I agree. But Sara doesn't. It doesn't compute with her at all, in fact. Her only thought when she gets turned on is being seen completely naked, and (preferably) in a situation where she can't cover up and/or stop guys from looking. The "viewed as a sexual object" thing most women violently object to happens to be Sara's deepest sexual trigger, in other words. Finally, you say that it must me tough for me to hear a lot of the insults people say to her, and still encourage her. And yes, it can be. Sometimes I manage to keep focussed on her pleasure, and let the comments just slide off; other times I cringe. I have definitely had daydreams of moving to Europe where the breast size & shape thing isn't so unforgiving. But do I wish I could change how Sara looks to satisfy her critics? Absolutely not. What she "has" is how she was born and is 100% natural. And I truly find it infinitely sexier and more beautiful than all the lamp tans, botox, liposuction, dyed hair w/extensions, tooth veneers, nose jobs, and cheek/chin/breast implants in the world. I guess that makes me "old school," huh? LOL! As for "listing the things I find unattractive about her body" being difficult, I never even thought about it, because they are what others find unattractive. Deviations from Centerfold-ness. The only exception has been recently, since she stopped wearing the adhesive tape. The bump that shows now through some dresses and tight-fitting tops is so conspicuous it's visually jarring, even to me. (When she wears something that bares her stomach completely, her navel is definitely unusual, but natural. When covered and showing through, it looks like something that isn't part of her body is trapped under the fabric.) And in case someone reads that who didn't read the earliest posts of this thread, not all "outies" are umbilical hernias, and of those that aren't, not all can be made into "innies" with surgery. It depends on how extensively the abdoninal wall/fascia would be involved in a reconstruction. And the more completely inside-out and larger the diameter, the riskier (that you'll end up with something aesthetically worse than you started with), and more medically serious the procedure. So, besides never showing a hint of embarrassment about her "outie" (since deciding to follow her fantasies, anyway), Sara isn't a candidate for a surgical "fix" even if she wanted it. So. Everyone replied to now. I think. I definitely do realize that as many here fear for Sara's mental health and physical safety as applaud her for following her sexual desires, but what's there to say to that? All that's definite---known---is, so far, all is well, and Sara is more at peace with herself than ever before. She feels (what else could it be?) that what she once feared were "dirty" thoughts, are reasonably harmless, and she's within her rights as a woman to act them out. And, as always, I remain aware that I can't possibly be objective, given my own physical situation. I feel OK with my conclusions, though, because I fell in love with her, married her, and was in love with her before the fantasy-disclosure began. Scott

Hello again, all. After my previous post, I intended to let the thread die, since my original set of questions had been answered. Seemed like the correct "e-thing" to do, since this is a discussion forum, and not a personal diary. Enough of you seemed concerned about Sara's longer-term welfare, though, and funnyCAgirl's specific request to "let us know how it goes" made me think that an update was OK. First, thanks again to everyone who helped me "find my way" through this situation. The most influential---and likely not intended that way, since they were just opening remarks on a few posts---were what a wonderful, loving husband I must be to care so much about about my wife's happiness. Not because it made me think I was anything special, or because it fed my ego, but because what you said was exactly how I hoped/wanted/wished/dreamed that Sara felt about me. If what I was trying to work out and make happen for her made some of you---strangers---think I was special, I must be on the right track, I figured. So. It has been a hot, and extremely sexually-charged, sex-filled Summer. It is clear that an entire lifetime's-worth of pent-up sexual energy, courtesy of a repressive family situation (parents) and religion, couldn't be contained, and losing the negative feelings she had about her own body were the key to letting it out. Maybe her fairly extreme behavior since is an over-reaction that will mellow over time, and maybe not. If I had to guess, I'd say no. The excitement that showing herself to people creates is of a fundamentally different kind than anything else. Much more "animal-like," is the best way to describe it. The repetition and consistency is also telling, as is the way she tunes out unappreciative responses. In short, the soft spoken, shy, self-effacing, sunshine-smiled, school-girlish redhead I married; who literally cried with shame upon first admitting what excited her sexually, has become the confident, sexy magazine cover girl she used to want my comments on. (That was her initial "scouting technique" of my feelings toward women who showed off their bodies.) Some minor---but telling---confidence indicators in her daily life are she now sleeps completely naked every night; wears as little as possible around the house the rest of the time; and she stopped putting adhesive tape over her huge "outie" to keep it from showing through her clothes. No fanfare about any of those things, either. She just started doing them because it felt right. As for deliberate, sexually-specific stuff, there isn't much more she can do, so it hasn't grown or escalated much. The key is that even though other people are part of the "exhibitionism dynamic," she really only shows herself FOR herself. And there's only so much that can be shown, so it is self-limiting. She did completely wax off what little pubic hair she had (just a faint ginger colored line in front, and almost nothing between her legs), and has kept it off, but that's it. No piercings or tattoos. (The way she looked at another girl in a strip club last month, I was sure that subject would come up, but it hasn't.) Her reportoire of display situations has grown, but that's self-limiting as well. Also, she now has three bikinis, several pairs of super low-cut shorts, never wears shoes when she can wear sandals, and never wears sandals when she can be barefoot, and knows how to tie virtually any shirt in such a way that everything is visible from the side. Several of you expressed concern that dressing like that makes her look trashy and over-eager instead of classy-sexy, and you're right, but nothing has changed there either. The subtleties are non-existent in Sara's mind. More skin = more exciting is still the equation. (Remember, what she does is for herself, not others. She's not trying to attract men.) I guess there was one exception to "it isn't escalating" two weekends ago, when we tracked down and went to an all-nude strip club two hours away where there was very little "dancing" going on. It was a small, dark, and cave-like place, and what was obviously wanted and expected by the customers were repeated, highly explicit, legs-apart-as-far-as-possible, in every position possible, semi-static genital display poses from the girls. It was going on when we walked in, and the promised amateur contest was nowhere in evidence. The manager said Sara could audition for a job if she wanted to, though, but just being topless wasn't an option. His was an all-nude club. The place was so dingy and low class dumpy I didn't think she'd be interested at all, but I was wrong. I'm sure the Freudian/analyst types can explain her attraction to the humiliation part of what she likes, but I can't, and I was surprised (then and now) how important that component is. So, she spent the next 45 minutes (one rotation of the several little stages scattered about the room) proving beyond a doubt to the dozen customers that she was, absolutely, a female. As usual, she had no props or professional "moves." She just undressed and showed everything to any guy who looked her way. Most just dismissed her and kept looking at their previous favorite when the index-to-the-next-mini-stage occurred, but a few seemed attracted to Sara's eagerness and lack of sophistication. "Look at me here. I WANT you to!" was her sole message, and it came through loud and clear. Afterward, both on the way home and at home, she said about one guy it was the first time she ever felt like a stranger would have had sex with her if SHE wanted it... that she was in control... and liked it very much. I'm not a woman, but I can imagine how exciting that would be. As for me, no breakthroughs or changes of any kind. I still usually climax as part of just getting an erection, and when I do manage to achieve one without "firing," Sara uses her mouth exclusively. Then it only takes one, or sometimes two, sucking licks before it starts. Five seconds max is it, literally, so we have still not had intercourse, and probably never will. (And no, the "clamp off and hold it" technique does NOT work. All that happens is the instant the pressure is off, the climax continues.) I'm certain that the nerves in that part of my body developed abnormally, a side effect of the probable hormonal situation that left me so small. I'm so far off the range-of-normal scale in both areas it really can't be anything else. But---and here is why I'm mentioning all that---I consider my "love life" to be outstanding: I am married to an outrageously sexy woman who climaxes (hard!) as often as 10 times a day; who says it is my doing even when my mouth and/or hands aren't around and she does it to herself. And I climax so often that except in the morning, they are dry. And what causes these "erection-gasms" is thinking of my wife, or seeing her, or being touched by her. That other men don't think her body is attractive doesn't bother me a bit. Her being 100% natural, and untouched by surgery means she looks EXACTLY the way she is SUPPOSED to look: Not all women's breasts are are large and/or melon-shaped, not all their hips flare, they don't all have demure little "innie" navels, and not all skin turns bronze in the sun. Some women have none of those characteristics. In fact, some have the opposite of them. And one woman, at least, has the opposite of all of them. So what? But I digress... the point is if Sara and I have a great love life, any couple can. We've both discovered that sex is much more a matter of what's in our heart, and in our head, than in our mirror. That's it for now. Peace and love to all. Scott

Well... Another weekend gone by, and today I came to a conclusion that requires sharing, given the advice and suggestions I've received here in answer to my "call." Also, for the (considerable) emotional support. From mostly women, no less... !?! (You have no idea how strange that feels, or how unlikely I would have guessed it would be.) The conclusion? That I am not willing to do what most of you recommended, and try to get Sara into counseling. Not because I think it is a bad idea, but because I simply can't bring myself to do it. Try as I might, I cannot see her interpreting such a suggestion as anything but my NOT walking the walk, after talking the talk, and her trust in me taking a torpedo below the waterline as a result. I've spent so much time here recounting her actions, and trying to describe her with words since pictures aren't part of the "forum experience," that I've neglected the emotional part for her. As in, I felt---and still do---priveleged beyond description to have had her confide her fantasies to me in the first place; and then feeling that again to the tenth power when she put it all on the line and asked if she could actually do them. Her insecurity was massive ("Do you really think I'm pretty enough? What about...(etc) And I'm not... (etc)), and the depth of assurance she required from me was massive in proportion. I had a sort of tunnel vision going on that was (I now see) rooted in my own insecurities, and all I could do---all I wanted to do---was let her know her body was indeed as beautiful as her heart and mind. I never thought she'd actually go as far as she did, OR considered what a can of worms that doing exhibitionistic stunts would be for her, but now that she has, and there's no un-doing it, going forward is all that I care about. Meaning her being seen naked proved to be considerably more exciting for her in reality than imagining it was, and trying to put the cows back in the barn now simply isn't what a husband should try to do. It's like she found a magic sex-wand that could give her unprecedented sexual pleasure, and then me taking it away... I simply can't do it. Right or wrong, or prices to pay later just don't matter. I hope that makes sense. I'm aware of the liklihood this conclusion is partly a rationalization based on my unusual "body situation" too, by the way, so there's no need to tell me. All I can offer as rebuttal to some of you normal guys is to trade with me for a week before being too critical. In short, unusual people, like unusual situations, sometimes require unusual solutions. And for now, one has been found that works. For both of us: She finally has the level of sexual pleasure she always dreamed of, and I simply have sex. Of any kind. And finally, I realized after rereading the thread that I never answered Jasminebose's several direct questions about how other men seeing Sara naked makes me feel. The answer is hugely mixed. In the abstract, I'm delighted to have found a mate who is an outrageously sexual person, and try to keep that thought front and center when when she's actually displaying herself. That resolve usually morphs into a cringing feeling before it's over because of most guys' reaction to her "un-centerfold-ness," though. Some of that is because she doesn't tease at all, or even seem to know how to. She just gets naked in a rush through an effort of will, and then enters the Zone and just stands there. The rest is because even though I think she's beautiful, the differences between her body and what most guys like are impossible to ignore, and I know they won't find them attractive. Well, that's about it, I guess. Both for this post and the thread. I came here in a bit of despair, and that's now gone. And Sara both says (and acts like) she's never been happier. The difference in her confidence is amazing. Even though the reception she gets isn't enthusiastic, it doesn't seem to matter. Just knowing she has the strength to reach for what she wants, regardless of what anyone thinks or says (including God---the Catholic thing, remember?) is enough, apparently. Thanks again, Scott P.S. I tried to open a door in her mind regarding the sophistication of her revealing outfits, by showing her some pics of fancier/nicer stuff, but all she did was laugh and say that I didn't get it... that looking insatiable and easy was part of what was exciting, and the more revealing the better.

Hello again, all. Sorry for the sudden absense. Trouble with my computer plus an ISP changeover, and a reluctance to use anyone else's for personal stuff like this in the meantime... But all is fixed for now. Catching up on the thread, I hear you loud and clear about how fast this fantasy-realization thing has taken on a life of its own, and the attendant risks and dangers. I've dropped several "conversation openers" to Sara about it in the last two weeks, in fact, but she's brushed them aside with, "But you're always with me... I'd never do anything alone." And try as I might, intention-wise, my mouth simply refuses to work regarding how un-centerfold-looking girls aren't welcome in the average male's sexual worldview. (Thank you, Hugh Hefner.) Both because I truly think she is an incredibly sexy woman; and because I simply can't---won't---risk her interpreting anything I say as me thinking otherwise. So. The stalemate, so to speak, continues in that regard. News-wise, last week we finally did find an all-nude dancing bar far in the country, where a quick up-and-down look by the manager at her with her clothes on was all the "audition" required, and her blazing smile apparently did the rest. She didn't have any sort of costume, but just walked on the stage when it was her turn, and started immediately undressing. Very "low-tech" compared with the other three girls who entered, and what she lacked in flash and dancing ability she tried to make up for by being the, um... the least shy. Without teasing or hesitation, she simply got naked, and started doing stuff that showed everyone what she most wanted to show. It was obvious from her awkwardness that she was one of those housewife/girlfriend types who occasionally (I assume) show up at such clubs simply for the opportunity they afford exhibitionistic girls, and not a serious contender/Vegas showgirl wannabe. How painful was it? Hm. Well, she didn't clear the room literally, but a lot of guys decided to hit the bar or go the the bathroom during her song. And from those who remained to watch her, the comments I overheard from the group sitting in front of me included, "dog tits," "antenna tits," "That's one skinny b*itch!", and, "What the #@$&??? ... is that her belly button???!!!" The overhead lights also make her skin look about ten shades whiter than anything I believed possible; and the ones at the edge of the stage made sure everything was clearly visible when she opened her legs. Afterward, though, when I met her at the dressing room door by the back entrance, none of that mattered at all. She was so excited and thrill-filled that there simply wasn't room for anything negative, and all she wanted to do was get home so we could have sex. And when I thought to ask her for a repeat performance in our bedroom just for me, it turned out to be exactly the right thing to do. I talked to her a little during this show, saying stuff like I'd noticed several guys touching themselves while she was on stage (there might have been, yes?), and how much sexier her natural body looked than the other girls had with their bleached hair, implants, and lamp tans. I even told her that the near-translucent, ultra-pale pink of her nipples and, um, other delicate bodyparts was both prettier and sexier than the tannish brown of the other girls. I musta done good, 8) , because I've never seen her so excited before. Not even close... It was amazing, and absolutely thrilling to me to be able to magnify (distill?) her pleasure with something so simple. Hmmm... I just reread this post, and thought about it before continuing... Conclusions? I guess Sara'; self-esteem is terrible, yes? She obviously enters some sort of self-contained, denial-controlled "alternate world" when displaying herself, because I know that anything I can see and hear, she can too, but I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if it doesn't matter... As in, how can I think her unusual sexual needs are any less important than mine, especially when they are caused by physical oddities she has no control over having been born with, and must live with the ret of her life? Just as I must with my body's limitations. (Speaking of which, just for you guys who think Lovew ill pass you by because you're not big enough, or last long enough; I climaxed twice on the drive home from the club, in my pants, and two more times while Sara was re-enacting her dance for me, just into the air. (When I get excited enough, it happens before I'm even halfway hard without anything touching me at all. And if I pinch it off, it resumes within seconds of letting go.) And we still manage to have a wonderful love life. So, I guess that's enough for now. Overly long post, and all that. More later. Thanks very much again for all the help and support. Truly. Scott

Hi, Lexicon Thanks for the support. I sure don't feel amazing, though... I'm really surprised how most of the people helping me here are women. I figured in the beginning that guys would probably just get crude, and the women would go into lecture mode about how dirty-thinking Sara was. Not so, though. Thanks again. Well, since my last post, Sara came back, we talked awhile, had sex, 8) and now she's in bed. The focus of her excitement was her wanting to know how much Mark could see last night between her legs, and when I assured her it was a lot, her switch was flipped, and we were off to the races... And for her finale, she opened her legs as far as she could directly at me, and said, "But here's how much I wish he could have seen!" and touched herself until she climaxed. There is NO doubt in my mind that all this actual showing-herself stuff is much more exciting for her than just telling me about it the way she used to. I can tell she is definitely going to want more "visitors." I think the security of being at home let her enjoy herself more, somehow. I understand what you mean about me not having to do everything she wants, but the way I encouraged her back when it was only fantasy disclosure talk, makes that a difficult position to take now. I simply never DREAMED it would ever grow into what it has. So, I imagine I'll be arranging more evenings before long... Which has now got me wondering how to work a "she's no pin-up" warning into an invitation without having it scare guys away so no one accepts. And I'm not even sure WHAT average guys find the most objectionable about her to warn them about, or even if they really DO... as in, maybe they deliberately over react because they think it's un-manly to like a girl that's different looking? If their reaction is legitimate, I suppose it's everything that's "wrong" about her body rolled together. Meaning, girls who are really pale, or have a super huge "outie," (Sara's the biggest I've ever seen on anybody, BTW, not just a thin girl, by like tree times) or have really different-looking breasts---any one of those things---can forget ever becoming a model or a centerfold, so if one has all those things at the same time, it's the whole package nobody likes. Too funny... If they only knew her heart, they'd kill to be me. Anyway, thanks again for all the help. This place is great. Scott

Luciana and tiger_lilies, Thanks much for the suggestions. I mentioned the nude beach idea to Sara and she very much liked it. The only problems are we live in the Midwest, so will only be able to do it on vacations, plus the searching I did said most beaches are not optional clothing, but nudity is required. Most, not all. And while for Sara it might be perfect, for me it would be a nightmare. There is no way whatsoever that MY trunks are coming off! So we'd definitely (me anyway) will make the effort to track down a place where I'll be allowed to accompany her, "trunks on." The naturist club thing has the same problem, but also it doesn't suit the underlying "vibe." Sara's motivation is 100% sexual, while the nude resorts are strictly a healthy living, family oriented thing. For what it's worth, I mentioned/explained having a friend come over as an "observer" yesterday, as an experiment, she immediately said YES!, and last evening he did. The understanding was she'd just wear something a bit see-through, or maybe a quick flash of some kind. And maybe it was hers, too, going in... but she got so excited it went much farther. The excuse was to watch a movie, and after it started, Sara went to the bedroom and changed out of her office clothes, and returned wearing only a short terry robe. I could see she'd left it loosely tied, and when she sat to watch the movie, it pooched open so far that one side of her chest was completely exposed. Mark had noticed the looseness too, so was watching when it happened. I tried to get Sara's attention, but she was in the Zone (or whatever). I'd given Mark a heads-up that she liked doing stuff like that before he came over, so he wasn't surprised by her behavior, but made an involuntary eeeewwwww face at what he saw. He tried to cover it, but what he really thought was clear. I'm sure he'd accepted the invitation expecting that any girl who liked showing herself was more conventionally beautiful. And as I figured would happen, once I saw how excited Sara was getting, she made no attempt to close the robe, either. After a few minutes, she then got up and went to the kitchen, and returned with drinks for us all. And her robe was completely untied. She said later she truly hadn't noticed, and how she just stood in front of Mark with everything showing (she wasn't wearing anything underneath the robe) while she held a beer out to him was an accident. One she enjoyed, but an accident nonetheless. She was smiling in an unmistakable way when she said it, though. Well, after that, Mark avoided looking at me, and only stole an occasional glance at Sara. He was clearly uncomfortable. Then from out of nowhere, she suddenly stopped the movie and said to his him, "You can see what I look like naked all the way if you want!" and without waiting for an answer, she stood up, stepped in front of him and dropped the robe to the floor. He stared for about five seconds, looked back at me, then at Sara again. She seemed delighted. Then he set down his beer and muttered, "I gotta go..." and left. Sara claimed the "accident" had made her so excited she couldn't help it, and my not saying anything when it did meant it was OK for her to do more. We're still talking about it, and my feelings are strongly mixed. She's at the store as I type. I haven't heard from Mark, or tried to call him. Scott

Luciana, I was thinking along the same lines as you regarding a strip club as a (relatively) safe, contained environment. Sara looks nothing like the kind of girls who do that for a job, though. She'd be lucky to be allowed to enter an amateur contest, if any sort of preview/audition is required. In that business, a girl with less than a D cup is considered flat! And surgery is not an option. She is almost phobic about "natural-ness" regarding her body---something as ordinary as taking an aspirin tablet is a big deal to her. Several people we've been out with have mentioned implants in passing since I've known her, and each time her reaction was, "Yuk! No way! There's something wrong with a woman who does that to herself!" Anyway, you get the idea. As for tanning, she simply doesn't. She just burns and peels, and is back to snow white. Artificial tanning, I don't know about. Is that like a dye or stain? How natural does it look? Many thanks for not taking any cheap shots at me about the size/performance thing, BTW. In my teen years and after that one disasterous date especially, I considered suicide because of it. It took a long time before I convinced myself that there had to be at least one girl in the world who wouldn't care, and decided to keep going until I found her. And I actually did. Amazing. This whole situation with Sara is so simple (what she wants/needs is so harmless), but so complicated because of how she looks. I thought of maybe inviting a friend of mine over to apartment sometime, a single guy, that she can show herself to. Like for a movie. And let him know in advance what the real reason is? But if he wouldn't want to, it would really be awkward. Also, such a thing might make him feel used instead of him liking it... Anyway, thanks again.

tiger lilies, I've never heard the saying, but can see how it came about given the popularity of sex-related material in the world. From magazines to the Net, it's Big Business, for sure. Something I heard years ago but could never check (of course), is that a large majority of men in the porn industry are from Jewish backgrounds, and an even larger majority of women are from Catholic backgrounds. If true, it looks like Sara fits the profile, just not so dramatically... Your idea of filming her/us is probably a good one at some level, but I don't see how that would satisfy her urge to be seen by others. And showing such films or photos to anyone but ourselves would be much riskier than what she's doing now. Documentary evidence, so to speak, plus anything ever finding its way onto the Net would be a real mess. Also, my entering the equation isn't an option. Hmmm... how much to tell? (pause) Let me phrase this just a certain way. Unlike Sara, whose sexual fantasies finally overcame her religious/parental inhibitions and her physically rooted self-esteem issues; I have a situation that will never be displaced by anything. As in, I have physical, um, limitations of my own. I guess I should just say it, since forums like this are anonymous... We cannot really have intercourse, and never have, because I'm too small to stay in her and climax too fast anyway. With me, arousal and climax happen simultaneously. It is a curse, to be sure. Most of the time it's over before I'm even fully hard. (And those rare times when I do successfully "arrive," climax occurs almost instantly at the first touch.) I don't want to digress, because that's a different forum's topic. I'll just say that I was 23 before caring enough for a girl to even try having sex, and the date was over about a minute after the attempt. As was the relationship with her. She simply gathered her clothes, dressed without a word, and left. And I didn't try again for many years, until Sara. (Two penny-diameter inches, grape-sized testicles, and spurting on a girl the instant she starts sliding your underwear down, will do that to a guy.) Sara, though, while I'm sure she wishes I was normal, never even said anything about it for several dates, and then only in a, "Tell me if I can help" sort of way. We just adapted, became inventive, and loved each other enough to look past intercourse and traditional mechanics, and developed what worked for us. Hearing all this, any cynics reading this will probably say it explains our bond altogether. That Sara was probably with enough guys who laughed at her body the first time she undressed, that she talked herself into loving the first one who didn't. And that acting out her exhibitionistic fantasies today is a way of telling me she needs something I can't provide. All I can say is that I don't think so in either case. Though, (I just thought about it for several minutes), it probably is true that much of the reason I am a lot more willing to let her display herself than the average husband would be (a safe bet, that), is because I both fear losing her, and am trying to compensate at some level for my lack of normalcy. I just asked myself if there was any exhibitionistic act (short of something that would land her in jail) I would try to talk her out of doing, if she wanted to, and the answer is no. What triggered that question is just last night, she asked if I'd let her enter a dance contest at a totally nude nightclub sometime, and I said yes. I don't know if a whippet-thin girl with breasts as small as hers would even be allowed to enter, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict the crowd's reaction if she was, but I'd rather she be dissappointed in them, than disappointed in me. Wow. This intended short answer to your question, tiger_lilies, sure went off in a different direction, didn't it? I see now why therapists want their patients write their feelings down, like homework assignments. All sorts of stuff comes out, doesn't it? Scott