scott4321

Interesting thread, at several levels. My wife is both a hardcore exhibitionist (she enters amateur-night contests at nude strip clubs, for example), and a something of a "poster child" for unconventional beauty, so I've seen a lot of what's being discussed under what amount to laboratory conditions. Bottom line: Men know what they like and want, and centerfold perfection is WAY high on the list. It is so common and strong that I'm sure there's a genetic component, in fact. Some sort of healthy-chromosome radar at work... (Evolutionary anthropology, anyone?) My wife persists in thinking that being more daring in what she shows, and how she shows it, will make up for these departures from "centerfold-ness," but I've never seen it really work that way. Once over their shock and surprise, her observers' interest disappears quickly. (Out of many dozens of creative attempts to show herself to male friends and acquaintences at our apartment---never mind the clubs---the only guys who didn't feel so uncomfortable that they left soon after seeing her naked, were those who thought it was a lead-up to some easy sex for themselves. Once they discovered that wasn't the case, they disappeared too.) So, on the question of whether the vast majority of men base their evaluation of a woman's OVERALL desirabilty on a handful of superficial physical details, the answer is definitely yes. Sad but true.

Being small past a certain point does suggest a possible AIS situation, n83. That's where the 3.5" number came from. Both grade 1 and grade 2 are viable, and present as externally normal. Just small. I'd be willing to bet that if examined, the guy in question would have "the scar"... a 95% reliable sign. A blood test is the only certain way to know, of course. There are none that I know of.

Not very, but more than most people think Any adult male smaller than 3.5 inches or so is edging into AIS territory. Sounds strange, but there is actually a smooth spectrum of people---both (nominally) male and female---who have an increasing number of the other sex's genital characteristics, right up to the cross-over point. Too near the middle zone, and the person isn't sexually viable (in the reproductive sense). It involves a fetus' ability to respond to certain hormones when only a few weeks old. Sometimes it is genetically inherited, and sometimes not. On the side of small guys, remember that they are acutely aware of the situation, and so (might) be more inclined toward creativity, technique, and so forth; while the large guys (might) assume that that's all they need, and never understand that there's more to physical loving than just being "hung."

Justplaying5050, Your question, "How much does size matter to women?" is flawed. It assumes that all women feel the same about the matter. They don't. Some care a lot, to where it is a "must have" for them; while others don't care at all. It's the act that they are excited by... the sharing and togetherness. Bottom line: Being large is rarely seen as a problem by any girl, while being small is definitely seen as a problem by some of them. Doesn't sound as though you have anything to worry about, though.

Sonjam, "Not so long ago" actually was, I think. About this time last year. A link to the original thread was put into another thread I started a week or so ago, so maybe you read the original recently without realizing how old it was? (Just speculating) And in the name of accuracy, my original apprehension was far more about how people reacted to Sara's unconventional beauty than about what she did or wanted to do. Something that is still the hardest part, BTW. So, yes, my acceptance did evolve. What allowed it was exactly what I'm talking about in this thread... my eventual understanding of the dynamics of loving a person for who they actually are instead of for how closely they map to your notions of "perfection." The former unfolds, the latter is what attracted you to them in the first place. Because that's usually the root cause of marriage break-ups, isn't it? People use phrases like, "We grew apart." I disagree with that completely. Both partners were complete packages upon meeting. It's the incremental, intimate disclosure of that completeness that do couples in. The relationship equivalent of Nicholson's famous line, "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" Because indeed, most people can't. All I'm suggesting in this thread is to understand that such "unfolding" is a normal thing, and to embrace what's disclosed instead of resist or deny it, is a response that's rarely even considered, never mind employed. Scott

Hi all. This thread deserves a bit of explanation. Last summer, my wife made it known (gently but insistently), that she truly would like to try bringing some of her fantasies to life. It was in conjuction with an overall "assertiveness awakening" she was going through. So, she/we gave it a go, she liked it even more than she expected, wanted still more, and the rest is history. But at the time, it wasn't so easy, and I came to eNot seeking advice and support. It was given in spades. So, I thought it only proper to take what I learned from the experience, and pass it back to those who helped me, in case I could do them some good. To return the favor, in a sense. I didn't distill it all that well, I see (upon re-reading), but I can tell by the replies that it was understood, if not elegantly expressed. Let me try it again: NO ONE is "normal," and expecting them to be, or worse, trying to make them normal, is a fool's game. Meaning? Two people who are truly lifemates must understand that at a cellular level--and act on it when necessary--by converting their revulsion/fear/outrage/disgust/etc. into understanding and support, and then offer that transformed emotion back as love. If is Powerful Stuff, I assure you. So powerful that it will scare you at first. nmduipd Has it become arousing to me, too? Most of the time. When something is planned, almost always. When she does something that catches me by surprise, maybe half the time. Am I permitting it just for her sake? That's one of those presumptive questions. It isn't that simple. I guess it started that way, but since I've come to understand how precious (to her) that permission is, I'd feel somebody was taking something away from me if I didn't have that gift to give her anymore. Which means, I think, the answer is, "no." Is she doing anything similiar for me? Yes. It's entirely different in nature, but identical in concept. Definitely "exception processing." Is it just the exception handling mentality that makes it possible? Yes, I think so. Why did I call it, "Living with the price"? To emphasize and make clear the conscious, unilateral nature of "exception handling" in the beginning, when it's first offered. It's not an exchange, it's a gift, with no guarantee of anything. (That I think it works frighteningly well, and would in virtually every case, is beside the point. Your heart and head must be in the right place to do such things, and if calculation is present, they're not.) Scout Another way of interpreting that poll is with the presumption that infidelity is only the symptom of a problem, and not the problem itself. Then doors open. Like this: when your mate can't find what he/she needs at home, they'll find it elsewhere, yes? So, remove the need for them to look elsewhere by letting them find it at home, with you. Scott

Hi all. Many, if not most, posts on this forum deal with fidelity, lack of sexual interest, and the like. A thought: maybe human beings in general--of either sex--simply aren't made in a way that allows conventional thinking to work. And to even try to "stay conventional" is like trying to teach a cow to dance: doing so will only frustrate you, and upset the cow. My wife and I both have unusual sexual needs (me physically, her psychologically), but found a way to meet them and still stay together. Quite happily, too. So... if you are in a situation that is headed downhill, what is there to lose by trying something "outside the box?" The worst that can happen is such experimentation could result your relationship ending sooner than it would otherwise. But that it will end if you don't do something, isn't in doubt for many of you, right? The kind of thing I'm referring to is conceptually very simple. Just take the time to discover what your lover's most secret fantasies are, and then help them come true. Not all are reasonable, possible, or even safe, but many are, and then you can open the door on an entire new sexual world for both of you. My wife, for example, finally told me how much having men look at her body excited her, and letting her act on that set things into motion which proved it is essentially the only thing that excites her. I'm certain that if she'd try to surpress that need on my account, or I tried to supress it, the stress and unhappiness would have grown (taking many forms), until we wouldn't be together any more. What happened when neither of us tried to deny it, though, was magical: Intimacy and trust deeper and stronger than most people ever know. Rethinking what's realistic is all that's required to "live with the price," too, nothing more. In my marriage, that price is seeing other guys look at her body. That's it. (And I don't mean tight jeans and a see-through top, either. I mean prolonged, completely naked, leg-spreading type stuff at basement strip clubs... so I know what I'm talking about, and not just suggesting you do something in a, "Here, you taste this first!" sort of way.) Is it hard? Not any more. Not after I realized how much more I meant to her for permitting such an unconventional thing. Such "exception processing" is the very essense of being someone's mate, yes? I'm certain that there's at least a chance such an approach will create a new bond that's stronger than you've ever known before. And if it doesn't work, nothing's lost if things were headed for the dumpster anyway. Scott

In re-reading last year's thread (the one linked to in the second post of this thread), to see if I missed anyone's thoughts when I "went off the air" unexpectedly, I just saw the last two responses on the last page, for the first time. They were added a month or so after I was gone, by a guy called WeLove2ShowHer. They were, says the system, the only two posts he ever made on any of the eNot boards. ??? Not only would I like to contact him as invited, but now that I think about it, anyone else who is in a relationship like mine. On either side of it, husband/boyfriend or wife/girlfriend. So, if you're still out there, WeLoveToShowHer, by all means send me a PM. Ditto for anyone else who's either currently or was once involved in something similiar--again on either side of it--or from anyone who might know of other sites where such a person could be found. As WLTSH said, there aren't many of us around. I've never even spoken/written to another, never mind met one. Comparing notes would certainly be interesting, and likely useful. Thanks again, Scott

HB, Maybe this will help you sort out your feelings: Sex with one's mate, while physically identical to sex with a stranger, couldn't be more different. The latter is purely hormonal, and driven by evolutionary biology. Men are likely to indulge in such "sport" encounters more often than women, but not necessarily. What's going on between husbands and wives who've been together for a while is much closer to gift-giving. A mutual exchange of pleasure. It's a conscious manipulation of the physical sensations inherent to the act, tailored to the mind of your lover. The dynamic is one of the more you give, the more you receive. There are no limits to how far it can go. The catch is, unless the desire keeps returning, unbidden, to engage in this exchange, the physicality alone isn't enough. As you've discovered. Do you think of your wife as an extension of yourself, in a way that makes you think you're two bodies, minds, and hearts which comprise a single being? The two of you as one, experiencing Life as a symbiotic team of two? You probably did once, or you wouldn't have married... So, what changed since? ONLY your wife's weight and desire to get in shape? Happiness depends on four things, no more, and no less (assuming good health): Doing something you enjoy, in a place you like, having something to look forward to, and someone to share it with. Be sure you correctly identify the ones that are lacking, before blaming feelings of unhappiness on the ones you have. Think about your marriage in these terms--with absolute honesty--and the path OUT of the woods in which you find yourself will become clear. Scott

HB, You've heard it before, and I assure you it's true: The largest erogenous zone in the human body is the brain. You see what you want to see, based on what's in your heart. Another way to think of it is that sexual attraction for your mate (I'm not talking about the chemical flare-up of lust you might feel--briefly--toward some model you meet at a party... I mean the between husband/wife type of sexual attraction), is a biological lie detector that can't be fooled. Somehow, she's lost your respect, and (it sounds like), your affection. Determine the cause of that collapse, and fix it, and she'll be beautiful and hot once again. If you can't determine it, or you do and it "doesn't fix," your marriage is over in reality, if not yet legally. There's a pool of thousands of people here who will help you with the search & fix attempt, if you will let them. I recommend you listen especially well to the women. Best of luck, Scott

Wow. Thanks so much for the kind words, nikkers. They're especially meaningful from a woman. And for all the hours of thinking, worrying, and so forth that being with Sara has caused in the last year, it never occurred to me that I was "sticking up for" something. But that's exactly the situation, isn't it? Thanks for the insight... As for suspecting that you'd have given up if in my situation, I doubt it. Because that situation also means unconditional acceptance and love directed at me, by her, as well. And a lovelier human being with a purer heart and greater zest for Life doesn't exist. It's hard to explain, but my letting her do what she enjoys without going all Male-possesive on her is something she realizes is uncommon, and treasures it accordingly. (She thanks me after every instance. It sounds corny, but she literally does. Just a whisper in my ear...) Scott

No, not really, I guess... An attempt to bring Ocean Eyes and Annie24 up to date just took off. (Which is what I meant at the end of my last post about simply telling this stuff relieves some of the stress... It makes me feel like I might have problems, but, hey, like, I'm... Not Alone. ) Which isn't to say that anyone who might want to comment, suggest, or whatever, shouldn't. Not at all. There were some "You seem to really love your wife, and are dealing with some tough stuff well," types of responses last year that made me feel great. Anonymous approval is a powerful thing. The many cautionary comments kept me aware of the risks, too. Something you can easily lose focus on in the heat of sexual chemistry. Again, all the best. (And wonderful sex for everyone, forever!) Scott

An addendum to last night's post, after re-reading it today: I realize that Sara's and my relationship has taken a turn which completely removes it from the mainstream, and talking about it here might not be the right place. If I offended anyone, my apologies. I looked through all of eNot but couldn't find a specific area to discuss anomalous situations. (It was a moderator who moved my original thread to here, BTW) But, if there's a more suitable forum now, by all means move it again. Thanks. Anyway, to those of you (probably quite a few, now) who are inclined to regard Sara and I as some sort of freaks, please keep in mind that it's as simple as everyone ever born having no choice but to play the cards they're dealt. And that's all she does, and all I'm doing. Remember, Sara is just a pale little wisp of a girl with needs that her body "can't cash," visually speaking, and to most men nothing is more important than how a woman looks. Meaning, if she was a bombshell, she'd just be another of the countless Web knockouts who show their stuff, or a Vegas showgirl with a "kink," and few would think less of her for it (in this day and age, anyway). Right? So, all that's different is how she doesn't let an imperfect body keep her from doing what she likes, wants, and needs. That's the scandal. Because not being perfect means her only options are the crudest, all-nude basement strip clubs, unsuspecting pizza delivery guys, ambushing people we invite to our apartment, and so forth. It's so frustrating, because it's so harmless... errrrr! (vent mode on) All she wants is for many men to look at her instead of one, doing the things that women everywhere have done in private with their mates since the dawn of time. That's it. I freely admit that my own physical situation has probably made me more tolerant and accepting of Sara's needs than would otherwise be the case, and maybe she has taken advantage of that over time. In fact, looking back, I'm sure it's true because except for times when there was clearly a serious legal issue at stake (such as showing herself to adolescent boys), I've never told her "no" to anything she wanted to try sexually. So I guess I'm a pushover... But I'm also quite certain that a "normal" guy who tried to control her would only be starting endless arguments, and she'd soon leave him and do what she wanted, anyway. Meaning, the world wouldn't be spared having to deal with her. (That last meant as sarcasm.) Sorry if I sounded bitter there, but it IS sometimes frustrating. I honestly think that being so useless sexually myself (physically speaking), that I'm wired differently mentally than other men. ALL I see when Sara dances naked, opens her legs at strangers, and the hundred other "nasty" things she likes, is a breathtakingly beautiful young lady pursuing an orgasm. Period. And since I love her with all my heart, I'm helpless to do anything but help her achieve it. Her latest admission, that the engine which drives her at the deepest levels is a craving for humiliation and punishment for looking and acting the way she does---neither of which she asked for or can help---is sad, I suppose, but there it is. The good news is that understanding is only an abstraction, and has nothing to do with the strength of the pleasure she receives from being treated that way. A final, anticipatory comment to those who have decided "those two sickos deserve each other..." Men, thoroughly imagine for a minute having a downward/sideways curving penis that's only the size of last two inches your index finger when fully hard, and fifteen seconds is the longest you've ever delayed ejaculating. Most of the time it happens while simply becoming hard, in fact. Don't forget green-grape-sized testicles that rarely drop from your body. Would that change your sex life? Or, hey... what you were willing to deal with to even have a sex life? And ladies, all you have to do to walk in Sara's shoes is imagine yourself waking up tomorrow with an adolescently snake-slender, hipless, buttless body; your (likely) little "innie" navel replaced with an irregularly lumpy, completely inside-out, used-ball-of-chewing-gum-textured bulge the size of a lime; your breasts just tiny, upturned, antenna-like points the shape of miniature bananas; and untannable skin so pale it isn't just white, it glows white. Throw in carrot orange hair, a mild overbite, a few crooked teeth (all healthy and beautifully white, though ), a slightly crossed left eye (when you get tired), and top it all off with an unbelievably strong sexual appetite, where the only thing that turns you on is having men see you naked. The more explicitly so, the better, in fact... Would that change your sex life??? I think so. Sorry. I had to get a bit of frustration out... Well, that's what forums are for too, sometimes, right? (The theraputic nature of writing to unknown, but not uncaring, strangers in this way is a wonderful thing for people who are trying to deal with unconventional situations. I'd didn't realize until returning the other day to eNot how much it helps.) Whew. Off to the grocery store I go. (Day off, and lovin' it!) All the best, Scott

Ah. Sara's asleep, so here's my chance: Annie24 -- Since all this started and she really got "going," there's been no change in how she dresses in public. Her exhibitionism is all about exciting herself, not others, so actually looking good in the fashion sense has little importance anymore. Showing as much skin as possible is really all she cares about when selecting clothes and creating outfits. And, (and here's a change from a year ago), I've come to accept it completely. There are as many stares and rude comments as ever, but I finally decided it's one of those "acknowledge and accept what you can't change" things that the happiness philosophers speak of. Ocean Eyes -- What's up is there has been a shift in the tone of what she likes. In the same way she hinted her way into acting out her fantasies last year, she gradually let me know there was a Part 2 to all this. Which is that she now says loving to be naked in front of men is nasty and wrong, which means she is a slutty, nasty girl, and thereforeeee needs to be punished for it. Not by making her stop, of course, but by being told/made to do (and submit to) even more humiliating and embarrassing things than she what she was being punished for having done in the first place. A absurd sort of Catch-22 logic, to be sure, but one that's common to women (and some men, though less frequently) whose sexual deveopment in adolesense was severely interfered with by repeated episodes of physical and emotional violence related to that sexual development. (I've been reading.) And boy, was she ever. Abused, that is. But that's another thread. (Or at least another post.) For now, I'll just say that her entire family was in on much of it, and her father in particular was a beast. So, those of you who thought last summer that Sara must be psychologically damaged in some way to enjoy displaying her body so much, were more right than I thought at the time. What's equally true, though, is that as "bent" as her needs might be, her ability to enjoy sex wasn't affected. How she achieves the enjoyment was merely re-directed. All of which means, if you're reading between the lines, is that when she's aroused, she wants me to be very much In Charge, and outwardly disapproving to the point of verbal abuse and administering moderate physical pain. Specifically---ladies, please skip this part---by whipping her directly between her legs with a riding crop. One that SHE bought, brought home, and INSISTED that I use on her there. In fact, at first, she did it to herself, then handed me the whip and kept her hand on my wrist to show precisely how hard to do it. Then, the final step was restraint. Her favorite position by far is having her wrists cuffed together above her head, and ankles and knees held wide apart with soft ropes. (She supervised with the installation of large eye-bolts to our futon frame to have something to attach these to.) How often does she want/need this? Now that the "secret's out" I'm amazed she waited as long as she did to tell me. Making a completed cycle of becoming turned on, stripping/exposing herself in some fashion, then having sex (I'm still limited to my mouth, hands, and some, um, large rubber objects to ravish her with) that's interspersed with punishment for being a "bad, dirty, and nasty girl," is satisfying for her in a way nothing else is. The cycle sometimes takes most of an entire day. Now, the $64,000 question... How do I manage to do such things to her, the love of my life? Well, it wasn't easy at first. Not at all. But she managed to incrementally convince me that if it's what she wants, it's as much an act of love as any other desired intimate contact. So, call me liberated. Or something. It's a part of what we do now, pretty much every time, and overall, our sex life has never been better. Being "punished" somehow expunges the guilt she feels for liking sex so much, and lessens her self-esteem issues for a while. Whew. Wasn't sure I could share all that. e-forums are certainly useful, especially when it comes to complicated and/or controversial sexual issues, aren't they? That's it for now. Scott

Well, crap... I answered both Annie and Ocean Eyes, but lost the post from some sort of time out. (I logged back in and tried some "back" keys, but never found it.) Anybody know the time limit so I can set an alarm clock or something? (Does examining the formatted post restart the clock?) Or is there some user-controllable way to override it? Thanks. Scott Annie and Ocean Eyes: I'll try again tomorrow. Gotta run this eveining.