16 years relationship close to breakup?

[AshitaNoIppo]

Hello,

I wanted to make the long story short but I can't. First, the context:

• I'm a man, I have been with my girlfriends for 16 years
• We have 2 kids, 9 and 5
• Money wise, if we breakup, I'll end up fine and she may struggle a bit but she should be okey. I gave her a lot of money over the years as my income was 3 times her income
• I proposed her for a mariage 6 months ago and she agreed. She said it was one of the happiest day of her life and she felt that she was "complete"
• She tends to be very stressed whenever we are meeting with her family, especially when we organize things. She becomes very disrespectful to me when her family is coming home
• In fact, whenever she is stressed (job issue, friends issue, family issue, whatever...), she becomes terrible to me. Like very toxic
• In November, we had a threesome with a guy who had experience doing it (it was our first time). We met him for this sole purpose and will never meet him again. It was mostly my idea at first but she was happy with this idea. She said it was a great experience and all and she wanted to do it again with the same guy or other guys. However, I did not enjoyed so we agreed to leave it as a one time experience.
• In December we had a strong argument as her family came for christmas. It was painful but nothing unusual. I told her I don't want anyone to come and visit us anymore as it stresses her and make her disrespectful towards me

Then:

• 3 weeks ago, she told me she does not know if she loves me anymore. She was not sure she wanted to marry me. She was now thinking about other men since the threesome. (I believed our relationship was stronger than this but if not, it may be a sign that we should break up?)
• I tried to understand what was the issue but her answer was unclear. According to her, there are things that I could do better but overall she thinks I'm amazing, she knows I love her, she believes she will never find someone better and who will take care of her better than me. That's what she said.
• She told me she is very stressed by the mariage but she does not know why
• I gave her a week to think about it and see if she wanted to stay with me. After a week she said she was sure she wanted to marry me and that she loved me

Time went on and it turns out I'm the only one taking care of the mariage organization. She complies with my requests such as inviting X or Y person, buying rings but does not show any initiative or hint of wanting it and it makes me worried.

Few things about our mariage plan:

• 35 people (friends and family)
• Nothing religious, we plan to get married at the townhall (we live in France in any case it matters) and invite everyone to a nice restaurant then we go back home early around 6 PM
• I'm introverted, she wants to dance and I don't. She wants me to show affection in public, she wants people to see that I love her, but this makes me uncomfortable and apparently it's quite an issue for her.
• I think she has always dreamed about some kind of magical mariage since her childhood with a perfect prince on a white horse that would do everything she wants and turns her mariage to the best day of her life. (I told her about this hypothesis and she confirmed it might be partially true)
• She is afraid that be people will get bored at the mariage. I told her it will be a short event (for a mariage) so it should be fine. Also, I told her It's our day, not everyone else's day. People will eat for free in a nice place and just spend time together chatting

Yesterday I told her about my feelings. That I wanted her to be a bit more involved in the mariage organization. She answered that:

• she loves me but she is not sure she wants to get married.
• She is stressed but she does not know why. She does not know how to solve her stress.
• There are things she would like me to do but she does not want to tell me because if I'm not doing it on my own then it's not working for her and on the other side she does not want me to feel forced.

Whenever we have a chat on the topic, it's extremely painful. She cries. I have to find the most diplomatic way to help her so she can speak a few words and then I try to understand what she feels/thinks/wants but in the end I just can't.

3 weeks ago, I was sad and worried. I did everything I could to have her express her feelings without hurting her in any way, regardless of my own negative feelings.

Now I feel stronger and determined. I love her but I don't want to suffer. We have 2 kids, we have been together for 16 years. If she does not want to marry me... To me, it rings the bell of the end of our relationship. If we don't marry, I will never trust our relationship anymore. If we do marry... I'll still be worried but I'll give it enough time to see how things go.

I may be wrong, but I feel she does not pay attention to my feelings.

I'm ready to end this relationship. I start to believe she wants it to end but is afraid of the consequences (loneliness, moneraty issues, our kids going through all that... Also she knows I love her and will take care of her but I believe she might be thinking I'm good but not as good as the perfect prince she has dreamed of since her childhood). I don't want to marry a woman who is unsure if she wants to marry me.

I don't have anyone I can discuss this situation with so I'm here... What do you think?

Thank you for reading so far and to anyone who will take time to answer.

 

 

[matthew567]

So sorry to hear all this, its sounds like a really rough time at the moment.

I find it, that it hurts so much thinking of these things and letting go, we all have feelings, when kids come into it it's hard as well, I can relate a little at the moment as my partner wanted to open our relationship a few days ago after 8 years together, this has left me not knowing what is going to happen, she said that she values our relationship to much so if it wasent something I wanted to do its fine, but why now.

 

All you can do is talk and see what conclusion one of you comes too, hopefully as mutual as possible.

 

I'm new to this and I feel that I've come on here just to get a bit of clarity, as these things can leave us in a bit of limbo.

[Batya33]

If you focused solely on the best interests of your children what would you do right now?

[AshitaNoIppo]

5 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

If you focused solely on the best interests of your children what would you do right now?

I believe it's best for kids to have both their parents together so if I was completely ignoring my girlfriend's feelings as well as mine I would just act as if there was no issue, organize everything required for the mariage alone if I have to and make it happen.

[Batya33]

Just now, A***aNoIppo said:

I believe it's best for kids to have both their parents together so if I was completely ignoring my girlfriend's feelings as well as mine I would just act as if there was no issue, organize everything required for the mariage alone if I have to and make it happen.

Yes but together in an unhealthy way? She doesn't want to marry you for whatever reason.  You want to marry her.  She has behaved in toxic ways you say.  So perhaps consider being together as a team of co-parents and living separately.  

[AshitaNoIppo]

She has been toxic. To clarify, most of the time she is ok and respectful towards me but whenever she is stressed she kind of relieves her stress on me and start to be toxic. It rarely happens.

She claims she does not know why she is not sure she wants to marry me.

Maybe in fact she does not dare to admit the reasons? I don't know, it's quite difficult to understand her.

[smackie9]

Obviously it's her stressing is at the root of all this. Go get couples counselling. It will be ideal for her because she can get some guidance on how to control and deal with her stress.

[Batya33]

9 minutes ago, A***aNoIppo said:

She has been toxic. To clarify, most of the time she is ok and respectful towards me but whenever she is stressed she kind of relieves her stress on me and start to be toxic. It rarely happens.

She claims she does not know why she is not sure she wants to marry me.

Maybe in fact she does not dare to admit the reasons? I don't know, it's quite difficult to understand her.

From personal and general experience it does not matter why. Marriage is hard enough without being reasonably sure and excited to marry.  And please never convince someone to marry you or that their doubts aren't real. All you need to understand is that she doesn't want to be married to you badly enough and has very serious doubts.  

[AshitaNoIppo]

21 minutes ago, smackie9 said:

Obviously it's her stressing is at the root of all this. Go get couples counselling. It will be ideal for her because she can get some guidance on how to control and deal with her stress.

I proposed it to her yesterday. She said she did not know if she wanted counselling.

I asked her to think about it and come again to me with more information today based on the result of her thinking process. But she is not reliable on such things. I'm sure she will not come back to me. I'll have to do it and it might annoyes her...

I'm also thinking that if she does not put efforts to relieve her stress maybe I should not push her either and just end the relationship there...

[ShySoul]

Marriage is supposed to be a lifetime commitment, "till death do us part." If either party is not sure about it, then you shouldn't be married. She doesn't sound like she would be happy in it, and neither do you. There are valid issues that exist now in the relationship, and yet she doesn't seem invested in working them out, with or without counselling. She also seems to have things to work out personally, aside from the relationship. As much as you might love her and want to protect her, you can't be everything for her. It's not realistic for either of you to see you as the white knight. It's much better if the princess can find it within herself to do her own rescue and then the prince rides off with her to treat her right from then on.

I also agree that the children are the top concern. While it's ideal for a child to have their parent's together, it's only ideal if the parents are having a good relationship themselves. Otherwise it does more harm then good. My parents divorced when I was 19. There were issues for years before that. I believe they only stayed together for me. Even when they were getting divorced, I constantly got told by family and others that I was upset because I wanted them together. In reality, I could tell how unhappy both of them were (for reasons dealing with the marriage and otherwise). They were unwilling or unable to work thinks out. So I was glad they divorced. That gave each of them the opportunity to work on themselves and try to find a way to be happy. Staying togther wasn't healthy for them, nor was it healthy for me. So many of the painful things I went through could have been avoided if they had both been more honest about the problems that existed. You can still both raise the children and have good relationships with them, just not being together. 

[catfeeder]

After 16 years together, what was it that prompted you to ask her for marriage 6 months ago?

[AshitaNoIppo]

12 hours ago, catfeeder said:

After 16 years together, what was it that prompted you to ask her for marriage 6 months ago?

It's related to money.

It's been years that we wanted to marry but money used to be an issue. We always had enough to pay the bills but not enough to pay for a marriage. This changed 6 months ago.

Also we don't have the same kind of marriage wishes:

• I want something cheap and fast at the townhall. To me, a marriage is a way to officialize our union to the French state as it will provide more financial protection to her if something happens to me. The true testament of our love is having 2 kids, purchasing a flat, spending 16 years together. A marriage is just a piece of paper.
• I think she wants something that prove to everyone in the word that we are in love. A magical moment where she will show her family how happy she is with a fantastic husband (maybe a husband better than me, someone that dance and display affection in public to her).

Since we have more money now, we found an agreement where we dress properly, buy ok quality marriage ring, invite about 35 people but nothing too luxurious.

 

I gave thoughts to it and here what I'm thinking currently:

• As expected, yesterday she did not come back to me with the result of her thinking process regarding what may stresses her.
• I'm not the magical husband she wants but she knows I'm fine, I'm providing a lot to her and not just financially speaking
• Having doubts happens. To be fair, I do love her today but there were times in the past where I would have left her if not for the kids or the flat we bought together
• On a daily basis, we are having a good time. We almost never have arguments, we both like to spend time together
• She is stressed by the marriage and, unfortunately, does not seem to be doing anything to solve her stress

So my conclusion is maybe the best option is to go as is. I continue to organize the marriage alone, she continues to stress. It may even lead to a crappy mariage event as she tends to be toxic to me when she is stressed then we get back to our regular life together where maybe she does not love me anymore, or maybe she does but overall we are still both having a good time together and love as its up and down over years.

On my side, I will protect myself financially and emotionally. If she leaves me, I want to be prepared. It does not look like the happiest relationship I was looking for but I believe I can go with it.

What do you think?

[Batya33]

19 hours ago, A***aNoIppo said:

In fact, whenever she is stressed (job issue, friends issue, family issue, whatever...), she becomes terrible to me. Like very toxic

So this isn't the case?

You said later it wasn't toxic.

If marriage is just a piece of paper to you and not to her that raises real concerns.  It wasn't to us and we spent very little on our awesome magical wedding -10 guests - lovely clothes and ceremony, lunch and wedding cake.  It's not about the money in your situation IMHO.  Much much more lurking there. I wouldn't pursue marriage unless you have (more?) counseling and you're on the same page. 

[Kwothe28]

20 hours ago, A***aNoIppo said:

I have been with my girlfriends for 16 years

OK, if this one doesnt work out you have your other girlfriend. (I know its a typo but couldnt resist 😂

Anyway, was threesome your idea or something she pitched? Like, that she said she thinks about other men or something so that is why you proposed threesome so she wouldnt be tempted to find other men on her own? 

I am asking because other then that, only other explanation would be that you enjoy sharing her, which by your story isnt that likely. And that its painfully obvious that she is only with you because you are "safe option". And not because she has some feelings there. You maybe made kids with her. But whatever brought you together then isnt here now. She isnt suppose to be thinking about other men. Or not be sure about marriage after 16 years and 2 kids together. Those are all the signs that she isnt happy with you. Maybe you are with her and that is why you tried to accomodate her, even arranging a threesome. But as you can see, those kind of stuff wont help when she just isnt happy there. 

[AshitaNoIppo]

11 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

So this isn't the case?

You said later it wasn't toxic.

If marriage is just a piece of paper to you and not to her that raises real concerns.  It wasn't to us and we spent very little on our awesome magical wedding -10 guests - lovely clothes and ceremony, lunch and wedding cake.  It's not about the money in your situation IMHO.  Much much more lurking there. I wouldn't pursue marriage unless you have (more?) counseling and you're on the same page. 

Most of the time, we are having a good time.
Once in a while, she is stressed by something and relieve her stress by being toxic towards me. It rarely happens but I don't accept it when it happens so it leads to arguments.

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, A***aNoIppo said:

Most of the time, we are having a good time.
Once in a while, she is stressed by something and relieve her stress by being toxic towards me. It rarely happens but I don't accept it when it happens so it leads to arguments.

That is not what you wrote at all above -why are you backpedaling -what's the rationalizing about?

[AshitaNoIppo]

3 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

OK, if this one doesnt work out you have your other girlfriend. (I know its a typo but couldnt resist 😂

Anyway, was threesome your idea or something she pitched? Like, that she said she thinks about other men or something so that is why you proposed threesome so she wouldnt be tempted to find other men on her own? 

I am asking because other then that, only other explanation would be that you enjoy sharing her, which by your story isnt that likely. And that its painfully obvious that she is only with you because you are "safe option". And not because she has some feelings there. You maybe made kids with her. But whatever brought you together then isnt here now. She isnt suppose to be thinking about other men. Or not be sure about marriage after 16 years and 2 kids together. Those are all the signs that she isnt happy with you. Maybe you are with her and that is why you tried to acvomodage her, even arranging a threesome. But as you can see, those kind of stuff wont help when she just isnt happy there. 

The threesome was my idea mostly. It started as a joke then we went on seriously. Ultimately, I proposed and organized it but she was quite pleased with the idea. She would like to try with a girl as well (+ me) and I'm ok for it but not now. The threesome did not happen because anything felt negative in our relationship. It was just kind of trying a new experience. I was curious to try it but I really did not know how I would feel. I only learnt my feelings while doing it. It was not terrible but I did not enjoy it either.

She says she loves me but I'm confused why she has doubts about marriage...

I think it's only natural to "think" about other men. I myself think about other women once in a while.
Apparently she believes that thinking of other men is almost like cheating on me and she seems to feel guilty. I told her it's just normal human feelings and it's fine as long as we don't lie to each other.

 

[AshitaNoIppo]

7 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

That is not what you wrote at all above -why are you backpedaling -what's the rationalizing about?

I'm going to quote myself. Here what I wrote:

 

• First message: in fact, whenever she is stressed (job issue, friends issue, family issue, whatever...), she becomes terrible to me. Like very toxic
• 19 hours ago: she has been toxic. To clarify, most of the time she is ok and respectful towards me but whenever she is stressed she kind of relieves her stress on me and start to be toxic. It rarely happens.
• 27 minutes ago: she tends to be toxic to me when she is stressed

So no, I'm not backpedaling. My explanations continue on the same line from starts.

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, A***aNoIppo said:

She says she loves me but I'm confused why she has doubts about marriage...

I think it's only natural to "think" about other men. I myself think about other women once in a while.

It doesn't matter -serious doubts like this mean DON'T -these are not just little jitters by an excited bride.

It's natural to find other humans attractive.  It's natural to have sex with multiple partners as part of a relationship when both people want that - it's not at all part of finding other humans attractive.  I find cheesecake tempting and I don't eat it every time.  I might find another human attractive and I don't act on it  - also because I am married and our vows are we don't have sex outside of the marriage.  We didn't promise we'd never find another human attractive.

If you try to convince her to get married or you go out and have sex with other women I promise it will increase stress and her go to is -treat you in a toxic way. Lovely.

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, A***aNoIppo said:

I'm going to quote myself. Here what I wrote:

 

• First message: in fact, whenever she is stressed (job issue, friends issue, family issue, whatever...), she becomes terrible to me. Like very toxic
• 19 hours ago: she has been toxic. To clarify, most of the time she is ok and respectful towards me but whenever she is stressed she kind of relieves her stress on me and start to be toxic. It rarely happens.
• 27 minutes ago: she tends to be toxic to me when she is stressed

So no, I'm not backpedaling. My explanations continue on the same line from starts.

Oh ok so interesting that you listed it as a major issue. Glad it's resolved/rare! Your general approach seems to be repeating old ground to justify really unhealthy approaches to being with this woman.

[AshitaNoIppo]

8 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Oh ok so interesting that you listed it as a major issue. Glad it's resolved/rare! Your general approach seems to be repeating old ground to justify really unhealthy approaches to being with this woman.

I did not make any list of major issues. It's an issue when it happens but it's managable.

I'm with her because I love her and I like to spend time with her. Also we built so much together, this in itself matters a lot. I'm thinking about the kids here.

Since the first time she expressed doubts 3 weeks ago she took time to think and now says that:

• She loves me
• She likes to spend time with me

But on my side I can see she is not invested at all in the marriage organization. So I told her I'd like her to be more involved. She said she was very stressed by the marriage and was not sure she still wants to marry. She also says she does not know why she is stressed.
 

[Kwothe28]

6 minutes ago, A***aNoIppo said:

I think it's only natural to "think" about other men. I myself think about other women once in a while.

Being attracted, yes. I am attracted to Alexandra Daddario. Doesnt mean I want to leave everyone behind and try to be with a Hollywood actress. But your girlfriend thinks about other men in a way that she wants to actively be with them. As in to leave you and be with somebody else. That is not natural state of somebody who is in a committed relationship. And that all "spills" to everything else. From her treating you bad to just being disinterested in a marriage ceremony organization. I would at least cancel it and save some money. You both have many things to work for before you commit to marriage. 

[AshitaNoIppo]

6 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Being attracted, yes. I am attracted to Alexandra Daddario. Doesnt mean I want to leave everyone behind and try to be with a Hollywood actress. But your girlfriend thinks about other men in a way that she wants to actively be with them. As in to leave you and be with somebody else. That is not natural state of somebody who is in a committed relationship. And that all "spills" to everything else. From her treating you bad to just being disinterested in a marriage ceremony organization. I would at least cancel it and save some money. You both have many things to work for before you commit to marriage. 

Thanks for discussing this topic so clearly.

She says she does not want to leave me for other men but she finds other men attractive and feel guilty about it as if she was cheating on me on an intellectual level. She thinks it's not normal to think about other men when she is supposed to marry me in few months.

I tried to reassure her by telling her this is only natural to find other person attractive.

In my mind, if we cancel the marriage, I think I'd prefer to stop the relationship there. I would not feel safe/happy in this relationship anymore. I'd prefer to marry but have doubts about our love once in a while.

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, A***aNoIppo said:

Thanks for discussing this topic so clearly.

She says she does not want to leave me for other men but she finds other men attractive and feel guilty about it as if she was cheating on me on an intellectual level. She thinks it's not normal to think about other men when she is supposed to marry me in few months.

 

In my mind, if we cancel the marriage, I think I'd prefer to stop the relationship there. I would not feel safe/happy in this relationship anymore. I'd prefer to marry but have doubts about our love once in a while.

It's good you know your standards.  She is justifying a plan to cheat with gobbledygook psychobabble.  People who want to be committed to other people don't twist themselves in a pretzel and use 10 dollar words and semantics to justify a strong desire to act on having sex with others -a strong desire they likely will act on and feel like "well I told him..... in so many words..... I mean......"

[Wiseman2]

Sorry to say but threesomes and dragging others into a conflicted situation was a horrible idea. It only complicated matters and made her feel awful. Please work on your relationship with a licensed qualified therapist, not some random dude brought into the bedroom.