How to differentiate between friendship and feelings?

[NighttimeNightmare]

14 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

 

A man was hitting on you?  

Are you bisexual?  Are you used to being with men and their aggressive natures?

If so, it would explain a lot. 

I literally said I’m not gay.  I’m not bisexual either.  Yes a man was hitting on me in spite of the fact I’ve told him I’m not into men that way. He wasn’t aggressive, he was incredibly flamboyant, just persistent and annoying.   

 

I was actually diagnosed with NPD years ago and was very high conflict and aggressive. I’ve went to therapy for years and years to undo that diagnosis. But now I feel I’m left with being overly concerned with whether I’m acting “out of line,” or not, to the point I think I’m not being direct

 

all my life I’ve been told I’m an a**hole who doesn’t care about people. I always felt I was just being opened and direct. So why would I want to cross a boundary with her? I don’t.   

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

. I need to go stop by her house anyhow to drop some stuff off which I’m planning on doing a little later today

This would be a great time to sense how things are. You sext her a lot and she's not shutting it down, but in person people can be more themselves than fantasy.

[Jibralta]

5 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I was actually diagnosed with NPD years ago and was very high conflict and aggressive. I’ve went to therapy for years and years to undo that diagnosis. But now I feel I’m left with being overly concerned with whether I’m acting “out of line,” or not, to the point I think I’m not being direct

The fact that you even accepted and responded to treatment says a lot for your character. Many people in that cluster resist treatment because (perhaps unsurprisingly) they don't believe anything is 'wrong' with them or it's too threatening to their self image. So, good for you. You don't come off as high conflict or aggressive.  

6 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I won’t blame her for things within my control.  That’s why I literally said, “before I end up getting hurt by my own hand”

I saw that you said that, which is why I bolded it. But I also saw that you said this, which is quite blamey and passive:

15 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

if she is dropping hints she’s not available she should prob stop contacting me so late while I'm in bed and boundaries should go up.

Next time she calls you at midnight, you should say, "Why don't I come by and we can discuss this in person."

That'll cut through all the crap.

[Wonderstruck]

6 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I mean at this point I’ve flirted with her and essentially told her I’ve j*cked off to her, in a round about way, and she’s not backed off from me.  

Okay, if she hasn't backed off after you admitted this to her, then she definitely seems interested.

She probably thinks that it's HOT.

I really hope that you go for it.

[NighttimeNightmare]

6 hours ago, Jibralta said:

he fact that you even accepted and responded to treatment says a lot for your character. Many people in that cluster resist treatment because (perhaps unsurprisingly) they don't believe anything is 'wrong' with them or it's too threatening to their self image. So, good for you.

Thank you. I don’t meet the diagnostic criteria anymore. I can definitely say the core of me is “different,” but I’m not abusive to those around me 

 

6 hours ago, Jibralta said:

Next time she calls you at midnight, you should say, "Why don't I come by and we can discuss this in person."

That'll cut through all the crap.

This sort of happened a few nights ago. We were talking really late and a particular topic came up that has come up before and she was rly upset over it so I said “u want me to come over and fix it?” She said yes but I didn’t think she was serious. Then as the call went on she goes “are you coming over?”  She’s at the least comfortable with me enough to let me over her house at dark. 🤷‍♂️  that was the night she was rly close to me in the kitchen and I wanted to make a move but did not 

[NighttimeNightmare]

5 hours ago, Wonderstruck said:

Okay, if she hasn't backed off after you admitted this to her, then she definitely seems interested.

She probably thinks that it's HOT.

I really hope that you go for it.

Tonight we had a 4.5 hour call.  We discussed her view on relationships and why she shys away from them etc. Turns out we’ve got nearly identical views so it was refreshing to talk about it.  

She wanted to ask me if there was something she was doing that was maybe making some of the men at the venue pursue her, if she was sending wrong signals. I said naw that’s just what needy people do, they take your social personality as something more. I said you’ve not given them your number, your time, your attention, etc beyond little pleasantries at the venue.  She asked if I remember when I said she was putting on a show with her skirt. I went to apologize if I had made her uncomfortable and she told me no… she doesn’t mind me speaking like that to her. But she didn’t want the other guys to

 

She also asked if I’d ever be with a certain type of person, I said “well, no.. but I also wouldn’t be calling them every day and on the phone for hours.  I wouldn’t be doing anything to strengthen the connection”  I explained that I’d only behave like that with someone who I had really good chemistry with. 
 

we keep having these discussion that shine a parallel between good chemistry/being attentive to someone vs bad chemistry with no attentiveness and people trying to force things.  I just keep thinking “we talk for hours and hours and hours.  Laughing and can barely hang up. *** are WE “

[Batya33]

I think she has an agenda and is playing all "coy" and "naive" -give me a break -she's a 59 year old intelligent and emotionally stable person -right? She knows exactly what she is doing she just wants to keep you on the phone and tiltillated as you "discuss" her "views" on "relationships" -she wants you to know her relationship with her skirt. She wants you to know how many men are pursuing her with her ridiculous "woe is me -am I sending signals???" She loves the attention from a hot younger man and apparently she has 4.5 hours to have this sort of "discussion."

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

. I said naw that’s just what needy people do, they take your social personality as something more

She also asked if I’d ever be with a certain type of person, I said “well, no.. but I also wouldn’t be calling them every day and on the phone for hours. 

It seems like you're having fun. Try not to overanalyze it. If you two can chat for hours about everything and nothing, that's great. 

What "certain type of person" was she referring to?

Are you afraid  that you "take her social personality as something more"?

How long has she been retired? What did she do before that?

[Batya33]

I also wouldn't assume those men are needy -if she's in their face and flirtatious their responses are normal -after all you also asked if she was putting on a show with her skirt.

[NighttimeNightmare]

5 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I also wouldn't assume those men are needy -if she's in their face and flirtatious their responses are normal -after all you also asked if she was putting on a show with her skirt.

Ok, I didn’t mean to make her sound like the town wh*re with my comment because it couldn’t be further from the truth. She’s not flirtatious with these people, she’s friendly. It reminds me of men who think their waitress is in love with them when she’s just smiling and doing her job. She was wearing a normal skirt, nothing seductive. The wind was blowing,  I said “yaaa you’re gonna give us a show back here!! 😏 “    And she asked if she was in fact, putting on a show without realizing it. I said no, those men who are pursuing you, in spite of you giving them any real attention, are just needy, and it’s nothing you’re doing, at least from what I’ve been privy too.   

 

and they are [needy], I’ve seen her interactions with them, she’s pleasant and that’s it. A woman saying “hi” and smiling is not hitting on you. I’ve seen men follow her around in spite of her saying she’s not interested. It’s not like she was giving them her number, flirting, talking for hours and hours and hours.  … like she does with me. If anything I’m the one who should think she likes me 

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Ok, I didn’t mean to make her sound like the town wh*re with my comment because it couldn’t be further from the truth. She’s not flirtatious with these people, she’s friendly. It reminds me of men who think their waitress is in love with them when she’s just smiling and doing her job. She was wearing a normal skirt, nothing seductive. The wind was blowing,  I said “yaaa you’re gonna give us a show back here!! 😏 “    And she asked if she was in fact, putting on a show without realizing it. I said no, those men who are pursuing you, in spite of you giving them any real attention, are just needy, and it’s nothing you’re doing, at least from what I’ve been privy too.   

 

and they are [needy], I’ve seen her interactions with them, she’s pleasant and that’s it. A woman saying “hi” and smiling is not hitting on you. I’ve seen men follow her around in spite of her saying she’s not interested. It’s not like she was giving them her number, flirting, talking for hours and hours and hours.  … like she does with me. If anything I’m the one who should think she likes me 

I think the lengths to which she's talking about it has nothing to do with an in depth discussion on "views" on "relationships" -my sister and I often have those discussions -including this past week.  She has other motives and I wrote those above.

Separately-if she'd noticed your fly was down at the bar and asked in front of everyone if you were intending to give a show would that have been ok with you? 

[NighttimeNightmare]

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

It seems like you're having fun. Try not to overanalyze it. If you two can chat for hours about everything and nothing, that's great

But chatting for hours and hours makes me feel things for her so that’s why I’ve been wondering if there’s anything there.  I do need to stop over analyzing but I also need to somehow learn how to better read human signals or whatever.  I’ve spent the majority of my life only concerned with my feelings so trying to “grasp” someone else’s is difficult 

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

What "certain type of person" was she referring to?

We like to watch a few same shows and discuss it afterwards. There was someone with a certain disability, and she was wondering if their relationship would pan out. I said, “well you can’t really help who you fall for.” She said “would you be able to do it?” Meaning, be with someone who had that particular disability. I said, “well no, but I also wouldn’t be engaging them and talking for hours and doing anything to grow that connection”

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

How long has she been retired? What did she do before that?

She retired early and has been retired for a handful of years now.   She was flight attendant 

 

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Are you afraid  that you "take her social personality as something more"?

At first I was. But especially after last nights conversation, no. Now we’ve both verbalized that she barely talks to other men, but she spends hours and hours talking to me.  If she’s so worried about other men wanting to get to know her based on very limited conversation, what can she possibly be thinking about how I feel based on her giving me hours of attention near daily?

 

If I didn’t know any better I’d think the point of those convos was to shine a light on the different way she treats me without directly coming out and saying it, but what do I know. It just feels that way  

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

32 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I think the lengths to which she's talking about it has nothing to do with an in depth discussion on "views" on "relationships" -my sister and I often have those discussions -including this past week.  She has other motives and I wrote those above.

You’re prob right, it felt planted to me. Like she was telling me something. And then I told her something back.  Without saying I was talking about she and I, I just said “I don’t find a random woman and then try to force a connection. If there is a connection, and I’m captivated by it, I will pay that person attention and let that connection grow, on its own, into something more,” I said if I’m not feeling it or I’m bored during conversation, I will cut that person off. 
 

She even told me there was this guy she liked years ago and they would “talk for hours and hours.”  And all I’m thinking is ok you’ve basically told me the people at the venue who you don’t talk to shouldn’t think you are interested, but now you’re telling me this dude you did talk to for hours and hours you were interested in. Ok, then it’s clear which attention-box I’m in. Do you like me cos you talk to me for hours and hours.  When she was first asking if she was giving off mixed signals I thought she was going to say it was about me and she wanted to clear things up between us. Like how can you say “is there something im doing that’s leading these men on” while barely doing anything, whilst simultaneously calling me nightly, using heart and kiss emojis, she’s even comfortable enough to cry in front of me; but not wonder if it’s me you’re “leading on”?

 

“Separately-if she'd noticed your fly was down at the bar and asked in front of everyone if you were intending to give a show would that have been ok with you?”

it would depend on the exact situation. She knows how to read a room so I’d assume I’d have just said something like “I’ll give you a show if you’re into it” It wasn’t like in the situation I mentioned I embarrassed her or anything. It’s difficult to communicate everything accurately in text 

[Batya33]

I don’t think she was trying to tell you anything. I think she gets off on playing all coy and naive and you’re presenting as a captive audience and even egging her on. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

could be. Lol 

[Wonderstruck]

On 7/12/2023 at 1:10 AM, NighttimeNightmare said:

She wanted to ask me if there was something she was doing that was maybe making some of the men at the venue pursue her, if she was sending wrong signals. I said naw that’s just what needy people do, they take your social personality as something more. I said you’ve not given them your number, your time, your attention, etc beyond little pleasantries at the venue.

 

On 7/12/2023 at 12:30 PM, NighttimeNightmare said:

She’s not flirtatious with these people, she’s friendly. It reminds me of men who think their waitress is in love with them when she’s just smiling and doing her job.

 

On 7/12/2023 at 12:30 PM, NighttimeNightmare said:

A woman saying “hi” and smiling is not hitting on you.

It's sad to admit in this day and age, but I'm honestly blown away and so grateful that you have this perspective, considering how often women try to explain this to men to no avail.

All that being said, I think that she desperately wants you to make a move, and is basically doing everything she can to give you as many GREEN LIGHTS as possible, lol.

[NighttimeNightmare]

2 hours ago, Wonderstruck said:

It's sad to admit in this day and age, but I'm honestly blown away and so grateful that you have this perspective, considering how often women try to explain this to men to no avail.

Thank you, it really is sad.   But with that being said, since I’m not a man who interacts with women under those sorts of pretenses:

 

2 hours ago, Wonderstruck said:

All that being said, I think that she desperately wants you to make a move, and is basically doing everything she can to give you as many GREEN LIGHTS as possible, lol.

….Im wondering if I didn’t just make her feel safe and that’s why she talks to me so much. I don’t have a hidden agenda, I didn’t take her initial kindness as anything beyond that, I’m not “creepy,” I’m just engaging her as a human.  Yes, I caught some sort of feelings and on reflecting, some of the things I’ve said were inappropriate for a platonic friendship… I also think the photos she sent were probably crossing a line for a platonic friendship

 

but I just don’t get any flirty vibes from her in person. I think my energy is more reserved too, though, because the reality she’s a lot older sort of hits me.  Her age is not necessarily a bad thing, my logical mind just can’t comprehend she may want me, someone so much younger, to make a move 

 

argh. Well I will obviously update the thread if anything does happen 

[Andrina]

On 7/7/2023 at 2:39 PM, NighttimeNightmare said:

I’d hate to make a move and then I’ve misinterpreted this or she feels she’s lost a friend due to another guy catching feelings… 

If this doesn't move into an intimate relationship, I really don't see how your friendship can continue if you ever want a gf in the future. Because you won't be able to pour all the emotional time and energy you're putting into her now with 4 and 5 long hour calls, and making each other dinner, while trying to date another woman. Even if that lessened to some extent, it wouldn't be fair to a new gf if you kept the info from her that you once wanted a sexual relationship with your female buddy, who is still in your life.

I don't know what you two discussed about dating goals/styles, but apparently you think you match in that area. If that's the case, I'd make the leap and ask her out, since your friendship has an expiration date, anyway. You seem to match in the sexual talk before you've even had a date. I saw that as a red flag when I was dating, probably though because my dating goal was to find a longterm partner. I didn't really want to engage in sexual talk until I was already dating someone and we'd already done the deed. But everyone is different in their tastes. Just be aware of that for anyone else you might date in the future.

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

 I just don’t get any flirty vibes from her in person. 

Maybe it's best to enjoy it for what it is rather than trying to escalate it to match up with fantasies? 

[NighttimeNightmare]

49 minutes ago, Andrina said:

If this doesn't move into an intimate relationship, I really don't see how your friendship can continue if you ever want a gf in the future.

It can’t, and that’s ok. We talk way too much and she’s cried on the phone a few times, so there’s some sort of emotional vulnerability there too.  I’d have to cut this off if I ever met someone, and likewise, if she ever met someone I couldn’t talk to her this much either .. it’s inappropriate. 
 

not that i expect anyone to read through the entire thread history but in an earlier comment I mentioned that her telling me she wasn’t out looking for a bf made it easier for me to keep talking to her cos this connection, whatever it is, won’t abruptly be pulled out from beneath me. 

 

52 minutes ago, Andrina said:

You seem to match in the sexual talk before you've even had a date.

we haven’t really had any sexual talk. Anything that may have been inappropriate, if either of us were in a relationship, wasn’t that explicit.  It’s not like we sexted. 

[Wiseman2]

3 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

We haven’t really had any sexual talk. 

According to your other post you talked about her bra size and that you masturbated to her pics?

[NighttimeNightmare]

40 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Maybe it's best to enjoy it for what it is rather than trying to escalate it to match up with fantasies? 

Well, yes… but Ive said a few times that I’m unsure if it is a fantasy. My feelings are a byproduct of very real behavior that we both are engaging in

 

Constantly calling me for hours, texting a lot, telling me she has fun with me, leaving the venue with me, parking next to me, telling me what’s under her robe when I ask… sending those bikini photos.  It took time and consistency for me to feel like this towards her lol.  
 

It could all just be the behavior of an older lady who likes the company. I dunno.   I don’t have any expectations or even hope at this point. I am just trying to enjoy the company with NSA. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

11 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

According to your other post you talked about her bra size and that you masturbated to her pics?

Yes, that’s not overly explicit or sexting though. It’s not like I sent photos of my junk and she told me she was hot and bothered lol 

 

I did ask what size her breasts were, yes.  And in a round about way I did say the other thing, but again it wasn’t some explicit talk she engaged in with me (meaning, she answered and didn’t tell me to stop, but also wasn’t like “you should come over”). I just said something like “sh*t that’s sexy. That’s going to be j*rk off material”. Aside from that there was the comments about the robe and being nude under it. Nothing beyond these passing, playful, comments happened.  
 

I see these things as crossing a definite boundary if either of us were involved with other people, I mean I sure as hell wouldn’t say these things to another man’s gf.  But in the context of our convos I don’t think they mean much cos overall I mean let me be honest.. she’s nothing like my hypersexual ex gf. She’s a lot more tactful and almost reserved, and I read that as a lack of interest. Which again, throws me off cos the rest of the behavior feels different than a “friendship”

[boltnrun]

I'm not going to discuss my breast size or discuss being the subject of "jerk off material" with a man I'm not interested in having sex with.

[Batya33]

8 hours ago, boltnrun said:

I'm not going to discuss my breast size or discuss being the subject of "jerk off material" with a man I'm not interested in having sex with.

Exactly - and it's not talk that friends engage in.  With rare exception.  This is why I don't buy her whole woe is me, men misinterpret and think I'm flirting.  She knows full well she's coming on to you and she's totally on board with the sex talk because otherwise she wouldn't speak with you 4 minutes much less 4 hours or cry to you.  I wouldn't want her anywhere near my husband who is in his mid 50s - not because I don't trust him -I do -but because it would be far too annoying to deal with her antics/look at me/look under my skirt oops I forgot to hold it down when the wind blew!

Definitely ask her out but I'd see it as more of a fun fling if you're into that.  As far as she's not looking for a boyfriend -insert "at this moment" -that can change in a heartbeat depending on how the wind blows.

Your title is interesting in this regard -I don't think this is about differentiating between friendship and feelings but differentiating between friendship and a come on - it's unclear whether she has feelings for you as a person -she has the hots for you it's just unclear whether she wants to keep it to phone sex or do this in person.  It's possible after she scratches her itch she'll also want a romantic relationship with you as a whole person but that remains to be seen -that you'll know only in person.