How to differentiate between friendship and feelings?

[NighttimeNightmare]

Ya that’s literally what I’m saying. That my behavior is coming off as seeming like I want some “fling” with no strings attached

 

That’s NOT what I want, though. I’d like an actual relationship with her, if she were interested. I just don’t want to risk getting rejected 

 

so I guess I don’t know what “unicorn” type of connection you’re referring to.  From what you’re describing, you’re just describing a FWB situation. Which isn’t rare, many people do it. I certainly am not interested in that with anyone. 

[Batya33]

41 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Ya that’s literally what I’m saying. That my behavior is coming off as seeming like I want some “fling” with no strings attached

 

That’s NOT what I want, though. I’d like an actual relationship with her, if she were interested. I just don’t want to risk getting rejected 

 

so I guess I don’t know what “unicorn” type of connection you’re referring to.  From what you’re describing, you’re just describing a FWB situation. Which isn’t rare, many people do it. I certainly am not interested in that with anyone. 

No I’m not. Read what I wrote that you said is spot on.  I think very often close friends who hang out then start having sex risk a lot of vulnerability more often than not. I think sexual arrangements / flings are common enough for sure but what I described is what you wrote was on point with the unicorn part being a long term sustainable interaction between friends who enjoy hanging out and enjoy also being sexual as they desire. But with no asking each other out or defining it in any potentially serious terms or any such discussion that risks the rejection you fear. To me that is needle in a haystack. 
you don’t want an actual relationship badly enough to risk rejection. That speaks volumes to me.
18 years ago right around this weekend my husband and I took huge risks of rejection especially him when he asked me to get back together with zero information or signals that I was thinking that way or certainly not in any serious way. I took a massive risk saying yes. risked so much vulnerability and basically risky step during my last fertile years too. If you truly wanted a potential relationship with her you’d risk this sort of rejection. So I don’t believe you do.  

Nothing wrong with that. JMHO. I mean from all you write I don’t think she’s interested in a relationship with you or available for one or both are true.  
 

I think she’s already in an intense relationship with herself in a self absorbed manner and she likes it that way. That’s one reason why I don’t think you’d two be a good match for a potentially serious romantic relationship.  

[boltnrun]

Let me know if I'm completely off base here, but from what I understand based on what you've written you will never ask a woman out unless you have a 100% guarantee she will say yes?

[NighttimeNightmare]

55 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Read what I wrote that you said is spot on.  I think very often close friends who hang out then start having sex risk a lot of vulnerability more often than not. I think sexual arrangements / flings are common enough for sure but what I described is what you wrote was on point with the unicorn part being a long term sustainable interaction between friends who enjoy hanging out and enjoy also being sexual as they desire. But with no asking each other out or defining it in any potentially serious terms or any such discussion that risks the rejection you fear.

Yes I did agree with the snippet I cut out earlier but maybe I interpreted it wrong. Because I feel like im not explaining myself correctly or being understood in the way I’m trying to express what I actually feel.  I’ll try to explain again.  You said:

 

”I totally understand you wish that without having to ask her out or make yourselfvulnerable that you two could continue how you interact and that she’d perhaps suggest a date like evening where you could hang in person and hook up if the mood strikes you then go home […] without having to riskrejection”

What I am agreeing with here is that yes, I do not want to be the one to ask her out on the date or make our relationship official, even though that’s what I want! I do not want a situation where we are not defining things and we have emotional intimacy and sleep together sometimes, because then there’s no commitment and it likewise leaves me at risk.   
 

i was just saying that a situation where SHE invites me over and unlocks the “gate” to that expression sounds WONDERFUL to me. Because THEN it’s clear as day that she’s got some type of feelings for me and once I can guarantee that then we can do the whole comittment thing 

 

that’s why I keep saying I’m not going to ask her out unless I can guarantee she likes me.  If she would just make the move first then I’d go forward with it all. 
 

I DO want a relationship with her and i am tired of playing these games trying to figure it out but I also don’t want to risk rejection. That doesn’t mean I want an NSA arrangement with her.  It just means I want her to be very clear first. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

If you truly wanted a potential relationship with her you’d risk this sort of rejection. So I don’t believe you do.  

That’s why we have so much back and forth and trying to clarify and reclarify things between eachother. Because you aren’t believing the things I’m actually expressing. That’s a problem. Every time I explain myself you think I mean something different because you can’t grasp that I’m being honest 

nothing is “worth” the risk of rejection if you know you’re going to “lose.” It’s that simple. 
 

im not going to f*cking ask someone something unless I know it’s a green light.  I’ve explained this over and over. There are winners, and there are losers. It’s that simply. I’d I have a suspicion I’m going to “LOSE” WHY WOULD I TAKE THE RISK?

you do not take “risks” you’re going to lose. That is the most asinine thing I’ve ever heard!  You look at your surroundings and make an educated guess as to whether or not you’ve got a good shot, then you take that risk. It’s clear and simple

 

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

. I mean from all you write I don’t think she’s interested in a relationship with you or available for one or both are true.  

Even this snippet above.  If that’s the case why the hell would I move forward in asking her out?  Instead I’d go, “alright well I’ve looked at the evidence and it’s pretty clear she isn’t into me so I’m going to cut contact”

so what’s funny to me is even you look at evidence to assess whether to take a “risk” or not, but somehow it’s wrong when I do it?

 

56 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Let me know if I'm completely off base here, but from what I understand based on what you've written you will never ask a woman out unless you have a 100% guarantee she will say yes?

Yes. That is correct.
 

The connection would already need to be in place before I’d consider asking for some sort of commitment.  I wouldn’t ask a stranger out, I’d have to know her first and it would have to be a thing where we were already talking a lot and vibing rly good.  At that point it’s pretty obv she likes me, so it’s a no brainer to ask for more, it’s a green light 

I would have thought this woman liked me too, initially, had she been my age.  It was the age gap that rly made me doubt it and threw me off. But now I’m not sure she’s into it cos we don’t talk as much, I’m going to reassess once I see her again, it’s been way too hot here to go out so I’ve not seen her in a bit  

 

I do think she’s got some Issues with commitment and stuff the more I do talk to her.  She seems terrified of opening up completely and I’m beginning to think that’s why my company feels nice to her.  I don’t pressure for anything, I’m avoidant, she doesn’t have to commit, etc etc etc  

This is why I’m realizing I rly do need to back off cos I’m becoming attached to someone who likely isn’t emotionally available for a myriad of different reasons 

[boltnrun]

5 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

She seems terrified of opening up completely

That makes two of you!

Relationships aren't like a business.  If you want the right one you will have to take a risk at some point.  Or you could just continue on as you are and realize that since you are unwilling to ever put yourself in a vulnerable position you are choosing to forego romantic love relationships.  And that's fine.  If it works for you no one else should get a vote.

[Batya33]

52 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

That makes two of you!

Relationships aren't like a business.  If you want the right one you will have to take a risk at some point.  Or you could just continue on as you are and realize that since you are unwilling to ever put yourself in a vulnerable position you are choosing to forego romantic love relationships.  And that's fine.  If it works for you no one else should get a vote.

I agree completely and I'm not comfortable with how the OP reacts and responds to what I write so I'm done for now -said all I can actually and not interested in going in circles and definitely not interested in being "right" or "accurate" or having to defend the opinions I wrote.  I like how Bolt an Andrina put it -nothing wrong with what the OP wants -I wrote a couple of times now that it limits his dating pool and since no one has to date or is entitled to date also I agree no one else should get a vote on what works for the OP!

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

 She seems terrified of opening up completely 

From your description she seems very extroverted, gregarious, talkative and almost embarrassingly too "open" sending bikini pics, talking about her underwear and so on. Almost cringeworthy.

Does she want you as her younger BF or lover? Probably not. She seems like a retired senior with a lot of time on her hands and enjoying some attention.

Does "no contact" change her stance? Not really because you two are on completely different wavelengths.

Does she shut down the sex chat when you push the envelope too far? Yes because she's not looking for sex or dating, just a limited amount of fun and attention. 

[Capricorn3]

13 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

From your description she seems very extroverted, gregarious, talkative and almost embarrassingly too "open" sending bikini pics, talking about her underwear and so on. Almost cringeworthy.

Does she want you as her younger BF or lover? Probably not. She seems like a retired senior with a lot of time on her hands and enjoying some attention.

Does "no contact" change her stance? Not really because you two are on completely different wavelengths.

Does she shut down the sex chat when you push the envelope too far? Yes because she's not looking for sex or dating, just a limited amount of fun and attention. 

^ I have to admit those were my thoughts too, but I didn't want to anything.

[catfeeder]

You’re basing the odds of a potential outcome with oranges on the responses you get when you attempt to shoot for apples.

Then you get all butt-hurt by failing to recognize that your game of warmer versus cooler is playing out in the wrong backyard.

You’ve since clarified for yourself that a fling is not what you want. So stop hurting yourself by saying stuff that sounds like that’s exactly your goal.

Don’t conflate sexual desire with emotional intimacy, and then she can stop doing the same. One of you needs to step up to become sane enough for the both of you.

She hasn’t helped this situation by saying stuff that doesn’t align with encouraging anything beyond a fling. So this isn’t some finger-wag against you for misunderstanding her.

But you’re both being clumsy. When she veers off into the sexual, recognize this as clumsy instead of responding to the wrong invitation. Stop her. Tell her that you feel privileged that she trusts you with sexual information, but you’ve grown to respect more about her than that.

Then shut up and be brave enough to hear a message behind whatever she says about that. If she’s dismissive, chalk that up to embarrassment, and find a gentle way to help her away from the intensity of that.

This will lay the groundwork for you to become authentic about what you see and desire with her, even while it removes the juvenile banter of sexual innuendo that you’ve both been hiding behind.

Head high, you can do this.

[NighttimeNightmare]

I had to take a break from all of this, and my friendship with her.  And just to clarify, the NC was for me, not her. It wasn’t intended to punish her, alter her experience, etc etc. It was something I feel/felt I needed in order to see clearly and maybe get rid of my feelings 

 

anyway I sort of woke up one day and realized that this entire thing was weird and not something beneficial to me, or her, as is. Other than using it to pass time with one another because that’s all it seems we do, and shockingly the phone calls got redundant for me. Prob in part because I haven’t seen her in person in awhile so it began to feel like an indefinite virtual friendship 

 

Also, the more and more I spoke to her, and the more she revealed, I realized there’s always some line I can never cross, and I don’t even mean sexually. We can’t carpool together, I can’t fix certain things for her, can’t do this, can’t do that. All because she’s terrified of every last little thing. I got so annoyed I finally said something about it. 
 

I don’t really want an arrangement where someone can talk to me for hours but there’s so many other stipulations setup.  Like she can call and talk and talk and talk but I don’t feel like that same “closeness” ever had a chance to evolve in person - which is ironic because we were getting so close in person and that closeness rolled over onto the phone when the heat wave struck, but then it felt like it sort of just stayed there. For instance, we never even went to the dinner she wanted to go to, it began to feel like we just hid behind a phone and sometimes made random flirty remarks. And I think @catfeeder post is probably spot on, if I understood it correctly

 

it seems to me this whole thing only works cos I’m way too avoidant and won’t be direct or say anything, and she seems terrified of letting someone close, so the friendship sort of exists in a stasis behind the shadows where neither of us address the baby elephant in the room - and I wonder, what’s the point of that? 

i stopped wanting to spend so much of my time talking to someone via the phone and caring about their life when, for whatever reason, that’s all it seems it will ever amount to. It could be in part my “fault” for not being direct and asking her on a proper date - who knows what her answer may have been - but whatever the reason, I’m now trying to meet new people who I enjoy spending time with and who want to spend time with me outside of a phone