I don't know what to think

[Jibralta]

On 4/25/2023 at 2:02 AM, Kwothe28 said:

So some men, burned by situations like that, test that by requiring a woman to pay sometimes.

I think I dated a guy like this once. I don't know if he'd been "burned" by women expecting him to pay (I think he actually preferred to pay). But he definitely had a bug in his bonnet about something. I've thought about him lately, as I read more and more about men feeling slighted by women. It's interesting to look at him through this lens.

[Kwothe28]

34 minutes ago, Jibralta said:

I think I dated a guy like this once. I don't know if he'd been "burned" by women expecting him to pay (I think he actually preferred to pay). But he definitely had a bug in his bonnet about something. I've thought about him lately, as I read more and more about men feeling slighted by women. It's interesting to look at him through this lens.

I got lucky(and smart) that I avoided so far women who would expect you to spend a certain ammount of money on them for dates just so you can entertain them. Plus I live in smaller town so nothing would really "burn" my budget that far to be jaded by situations like that. Think I always paid for first dates also without a problem. 

But big towns are insane. Was in capitol town here last year. So decided to see some woman for drinks. Prices are insane. Easier to find women though. But couple of dates like that could burn your budget easily. On other thread where we talked about it, OP was from London. He loves to "entertain" women and somehow finds women who like that. Cant imagine how much he spends and can imagine why he is jaded and wants to at least split bill sometimes. He didnt come in a while to update thread, but am interested if she sticked around and how is their dynamic now. 

Also, OP, forgot to say, people who have money are generally cautious with it. At least ones who work for it and know the value of money. That is why they have money. Cherylin described rich people to a "T" and how they behave. 

[Jibralta]

9 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

On other thread where we talked about it, OP was from London. He loves to "entertain" women and somehow finds women who like that.

That kind of self-reinforcement is what got me thinking about this ex. I don't want to hijack this thread, though. I may post about it in my journal.

[Cherylyn]

20 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

Also, OP, forgot to say, people who have money are generally cautious with it. At least ones who work for it and know the value of money. That is why they have money. Cherylin described rich people to a "T" and how they behave. 

Thank you @Kwothe28.  I agree. 

I'm not rich but I'm financially comfortable.  My best friend is the same and we're generous monetarily. 

My brother and mother are not high income earners.  They're generous because this is how they are.  Also, they live very humbly and modestly yet those who are affluent never reciprocate them because they're stingy to a fault.  My very affluent sister and her family are freeloaders and don't reciprocate.  I've often told my sister how she is despite her residing in a $2mil house, luxury cars and vacations.  She gave my sons cheapest gifts whereas I've given her children great gifts, handmade gifts, homemade quilts, gave my sister home sewn gorgeous outfits,  pricey gift cards yet her gifts to us were always so darn cheap. 

I know many very affluent people or economically comfortable people.  They have no qualms splurging on vacations,  airfare,  rental cars,  long road trips,  hotels,  dining out,  take out meals,  entertainment (ticket purchases),  going out to bars / clubs,  buying fine apparel,  home improvements and have their money flow in these channels yet when it comes to paying out to others,  they certainly hesitate and pump the brakes on that!  Examples are cheap gifts,  no gifts,  no reciprocation,  habitually sponging off of other people's generosity,  not helping with their labor / resources in many capacities, the whole lot.  They have no problem taking and receiving yet when it comes time to do for others,  they decline doing so.  It's not only shameful,  it's downright humiliating.  Yes,  they know the value of money as long as they spend it on themselves and keep it to themselves while treating others not that great.  It's insulting and very offensive not to mention very disrespectful.

There's the distinction between being conservative with one's money and being frugally ugly about miserly pinching pennies very blatantly and obnoxiously which I've observed countless times especially from those who have more money than others. 

The majority of my neighbors in my neighborhood deliberately seek out (often times undocumented) unlicensed,  unbonded and uninsured contractors (gardeners / maids / construction / handymen) because they exploit the oppressed.  Paying lower wages is a benefit to the client and the worker doesn't have to pay licensing fees,  annual insurance and the like.  Both parties do not pay taxes.  They take advantage of each other which is the agreement when paying cash under the table.  No money transactions are recorded to the government.  I've spoken to these contractors.  Many of them drive jalopies,  look unhealthy,  have bad teeth,  have to drag their toddlers and newborn infants in tow while working at these residences.  Whenever I've asked for their business cards,  they've told me it's cash under the table because they desperately need the money even at haggled lower wages and will take what they can get. 

As for the dating scene,  I remember my husband as a very generous tipper because he has compassion for starving students and single parents struggling as waiters and waitresses. 

My sister was a waitress long ago and she said well to do white collar workers tipped the cheapest or none at all whereas blue collar workers such as truck drivers tipped well.  You see?  Those with less income tend to be kinder with their wallet.  They empathize because they know what it's like to live a hand to mouth existence. 

Regarding paying for my meals and entertainment tickets during dates,  I also contributed because many times we took turns paying for each other or we went "Dutch" and paid our own way which was only fair.  Even though my husband always earned a higher income than mine,  I made sure I paid my fair share.  Other times,  we were on a budget and brought our portable chairs and a delicious homemade picnic to the lake or park.  There are free concerts at the park so again,  we brought yummy picnics and had a great time.  Costs were split or we took turns providing meals.  Not every date or (married) outing has to be expensive in order to have a good time.  There are workarounds. 

I just don't like the fact in the case of the OP, @turtle3's experience of originally being invited for pizza at his place and he asked her to bring dessert and alcohol which she obliged.  Then when she arrived,  there was no dinner to be had so he conveniently reneged and took it upon himself to change dinner plans.  He planned this which was deceitful.  He couldn't even fork out the money to go to a grocery store and buy a frozen pizza!  Wow.  He is something else.  😠

FYI,  @turtle3,  not all men will treat you this way.  He was a dud and a real bad apple.

This guy could've obviously been kind with his wallet yet he chose not to and to add insult to injury,  he deliberately chose a place which accepts cash only.  He "couldn't" pay,  had @turtle3, pay and while she was at it,  he decided to also order salad and fanta on top of it!  What a guy!  🙄 Talk about a tightwad and cheapskate!  ☹️  Then after that disaster,  at the end of the date,  he had the audacity to expect a kiss and a hug.  Really?   What nerve!  Dump the chump.  I know exactly what to think as should you!  😡

 

[Cherylyn]

On 4/25/2023 at 5:04 AM, turtle3 said:

Yes, and what is the funniest, there is ATM machine right in front of Turkish food place.

I left him whole bottle of wine and whole cake, we did not even touch it. And the point was not pizza or any food, point was to be together. If he said come by to have a pop corn and watch Netflix, I would be equally happy.

And about his car, he said how gas prices are high, but luckily his company is paying his car and all what comes with car. It is crazy how materialistic this world has become. Such a nonsense to ruin normal interactions between people... 😞

He is red flags all over the place.  ☹️  I've known people like him who have to mention how much everything costs all the time or frequently,  very frugal to the point of ugly and super stingy. 

You got yourself all dolled up.  After bringing his requested dessert and alcohol, he decided not to offer pizza as he had originally said.  Then he decided it was convenient to go out to the Turkish place where only cash was accepted as a form of payment so you get to pay.  But wait,  there's more.  He ordered salad and fanta in addition to his meal and at the end of the date,  he expected a kiss and hug as a signal of what an absolutely "wonderful" night you had with him.  Vomit! 🤮 

He needs to take a long walk on a short pier! 

 

[turtle3]

Hey guys, I have good news, I got new job 😊

And update about the guy, last week he wrote me whatsapp, he wanted to go together to the cinema, I answered back that I think better not because something is missing between us, I wrote him thank you for everything, and he just blocked me 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 after everything I wrote him in respectful way, and he just blocked me, it shows he is frustrated big time. I am not anymore sad about him. Thank you for listening me and giving me advice. 💞

[boltnrun]

Congrats on the new job AND for removing this dimwit from your life!

[Cherylyn]

4 hours ago, turtle3 said:

Hey guys, I have good news, I got new job 😊

And update about the guy, last week he wrote me whatsapp, he wanted to go together to the cinema, I answered back that I think better not because something is missing between us, I wrote him thank you for everything, and he just blocked me 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 after everything I wrote him in respectful way, and he just blocked me, it shows he is frustrated big time. I am not anymore sad about him. Thank you for listening me and giving me advice. 💞

@turtle3 Congrats on the new job!  🙂

He wanted to go together to the cinema.  Let me guess.  Oops, he forgot his card and cash at home and guess who gets to pay for admission and popcorn? 🙄  Lucky you AGAIN !    😒

It was just as well that you blocked him.  What a loser!  Good riddance! 

Tip for you in the future:  Whenever you decline,  it's better to just write:  "No thank you."  Or,  "Thank you for asking.  It's appreciated but I will respectfully decline."  Something like that is gentle yet firm and unwavering.  You don't have to explain why such as:  "I think better not because something is missing between us" or any excuses because the fact that you are declining doesn't require any  explanations whatsoever.  No means no.  However, there is a well mannered way to reject a person.  In other words,  exercise tact.  It will end better. 

 

[turtle3]

On 5/3/2023 at 3:22 AM, Cherylyn said:

@turtle3 Congrats on the new job!  🙂

He wanted to go together to the cinema.  Let me guess.  Oops, he forgot his card and cash at home and guess who gets to pay for admission and popcorn? 🙄  Lucky you AGAIN !    😒

It was just as well that you blocked him.  What a loser!  Good riddance! 

Tip for you in the future:  Whenever you decline,  it's better to just write:  "No thank you."  Or,  "Thank you for asking.  It's appreciated but I will respectfully decline."  Something like that is gentle yet f😂irm and unwavering.  You don't have to explain why such as:  "I think better not because something is missing between us" or any excuses because the fact that you are declining doesn't require any  explanations whatsoever.  No means no.  However, there is a well mannered way to reject a person.  In other words,  exercise tact.  It will end better. 

 

Hahahaha yes, it would be that scenario 🤣

Thank you also for advice how to decline people and not to explain too much, I need to work on it and setting borders and things like that I was doing wrong and was not aware.

[Cherylyn]

8 minutes ago, turtle3 said:

Hahahaha yes, it would be that scenario 🤣

Thank you also for advice how to decline people and not to explain too much, I need to work on it and setting borders and things like that I was doing wrong and was not aware.

@turtle3.  Thank you for your kind words which was very appreciated.  🙂

Yes,  tact without over explaining is the way to go.  Explaining too much is both unnecessary and you make yourself vulnerable to criticism,  backlash and endless back 'n forth arguments which you could've otherwise done without. 

Anytime,  I decline,  I'm very well mannered yet FIRM.  For example in writing:  I simply write (or say) "No thank you but thank you for asking.  I will thankfully decline."  Or,  "Thank you for thinking of me but I'll thankfully decline."  These types of declining statements coming from you is one way and you're done with it.  It's very polite and final.  Never tell anyone "why,"  give your reasons for declining or your thoughts because if you do,  be prepared for the other person to attack you and you don't want this scenario.  Don't open that door.   Cut off their power supply.

[turtle3]

21 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

@turtle3.  Thank you for your kind words which was very appreciated.  🙂

Yes,  tact without over explaining is the way to go.  Explaining too much is both unnecessary and you make yourself vulnerable to criticism,  backlash and endless back 'n forth arguments which you could've otherwise done without. 

Anytime,  I decline,  I'm very well mannered yet FIRM.  For example in writing:  I simply write (or say) "No thank you but thank you for asking.  I will thankfully decline."  Or,  "Thank you for thinking of me but I'll thankfully decline."  These types of declining statements coming from you is one way and you're done with it.  It's very polite and final.  Never tell anyone "why,"  give your reasons for declining or your thoughts because if you do,  be prepared for the other person to attack you and you don't want this scenario.  Don't open that door.   Cut off their power supply.

You are absolutely right, if we explain to much, people attack us and try to change our decisions. It happened to me so many times. Not just in dating, also at work, with friends, I was doing it without being aware and later I was upset...

Generally, I am definitely people pleaser. Not setting strong enough boundaries and having troubles to say no, it is crazy how far people can go. I had to literally stop talking to some old friends and family, one old friend I even had to block, bcs step by step I was justifying her every step in my life. It was during covid and during restrictions, she used to check when I was last seen on Whatsapp and later to give comments how not productive I am, how long I am sleeping, watching series, going to malls when there is plenty of people and so, while she is doing yoga, reading and always being better than me, but does not want to leave me alone.

I started working on it, bcs it happened many times that I let people not respect me and at the end I had to disappear completely and then they talk that I am crazy. Also I am very good listener and it drains me, bcs sometimes i felt like I am psychotherapist for free for so many hours. Those friends I had to cut off as well. And you see, I have no one to listen to me, this is my time someone to listen to me, to write in forums!!! 🤣

[spinstermanquee]

16 minutes ago, turtle3 said:

if we explain to much, people attack us and try to change our decisions.

Turtle, you reminded me of a long-ago funny story.  I met this guy from a newspaper ad (the 80s equivalent of online dating) one time for drinks and he thought he was (in his own words) "a perfect specimen of masculinity with his broad shoulders, V-shaped physique, and used to be a (stripper) dancer."

All I saw was a dude who was a bit on the short side, getting pudgy, a little too hairy for my tastes, and the self-promotion was a huge turnoff for me.

When he called me for a second meet I declined.  He wanted to know why.  I was trying to be polite and not give him my real reason... but he was relentless.  Finally when I said I didn't share his opinion of his perfection, he STARTED TO ARGUE BACK TO ME!!!  Ugh, just ugh.  Don't ask me why if you really don't want to know!  Yuck.

[turtle3]

13 minutes ago, spinstermanquee said:

Turtle, you reminded me of a long-ago funny story.  I met this guy from a newspaper ad (the 80s equivalent of online dating) one time for drinks and he thought he was (in his own words) "a perfect specimen of masculinity with his broad shoulders, V-shaped physique, and used to be a (stripper) dancer."

All I saw was a dude who was a bit on the short side, getting pudgy, a little too hairy for my tastes, and the self-promotion was a huge turnoff for me.

When he called me for a second meet I declined.  He wanted to know why.  I was trying to be polite and not give him my real reason... but he was relentless.  Finally when I said I didn't share his opinion of his perfection, he STARTED TO ARGUE BACK TO ME!!!  Ugh, just ugh.  Don't ask me why if you really don't want to know!  Yuck.

Hahahahaha OMG!!! Yes, the problem is that he insisted on why you don't want dating and later when you told him, he freaked out!!!! 🤣😂🤣😂😂

[Cherylyn]

50 minutes ago, turtle3 said:

You are absolutely right, if we explain to much, people attack us and try to change our decisions. It happened to me so many times. Not just in dating, also at work, with friends, I was doing it without being aware and later I was upset...

Generally, I am definitely people pleaser. Not setting strong enough boundaries and having troubles to say no, it is crazy how far people can go. I had to literally stop talking to some old friends and family, one old friend I even had to block, bcs step by step I was justifying her every step in my life. It was during covid and during restrictions, she used to check when I was last seen on Whatsapp and later to give comments how not productive I am, how long I am sleeping, watching series, going to malls when there is plenty of people and so, while she is doing yoga, reading and always being better than me, but does not want to leave me alone.

I started working on it, bcs it happened many times that I let people not respect me and at the end I had to disappear completely and then they talk that I am crazy. Also I am very good listener and it drains me, bcs sometimes i felt like I am psychotherapist for free for so many hours. Those friends I had to cut off as well. And you see, I have no one to listen to me, this is my time someone to listen to me, to write in forums!!! 🤣

Yes,  you're right @turtle3.  I hear you.  Same over here.  People will attack you if you allow it.  If they don't have your permission whenever you are clever,  they'll back off and know you are serious and not to be messed with.  People whether dating,  work,  friends,  family,  it doesn't matter will always take advantage of your sweet nature.  It's sad but it's the way of the world.  Along the way,  you will learn street smarts in order to survive otherwise they'll smash you to bits at every opportunity. 

Like you,  I've been a people pleaser for many years.  Whenever there aren't enforced,  healthy boundaries in place by YOU,  be prepared for a pummeling because if there's a chance,  you will receive it which feels awful.  I know.  You'll never have to justify your life to anyone if you know how to be well mannered yet extremely FIRM without explanations.  People are either nosy, prying or critical.  You can avoid and prevent negative comments whether verbal or written if you play your cards smart.

This world is filled with tons of disrespect.  As long as you're intelligent,  you can and will navigate yourself which means you are kind and respectful to yourself.  🙂

I'm a good listener,  too but if respect and consideration aren't mutual,  I'm out.  You have to be strong and tough or what is the alternative?  Not in your favor.  ☹️

[turtle3]

15 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

Yes,  you're right @turtle3.  I hear you.  Same over here.  People will attack you if you allow it.  If they don't have your permission whenever you are clever,  they'll back off and know you are serious and not to be messed with.  People whether dating,  work,  friends,  family,  it doesn't matter will always take advantage of your sweet nature.  It's sad but it's the way of the world.  Along the way,  you will learn street smarts in order to survive otherwise they'll smash you to bits at every opportunity. 

Like you,  I've been a people pleaser for many years.  Whenever there aren't enforced,  healthy boundaries in place by YOU,  be prepared for a pummeling because if there's a chance,  you will receive it which feels awful.  I know.  You'll never have to justify your life to anyone if you know how to be well mannered yet extremely FIRM without explanations.  People are either nosy, prying or critical.  You can avoid and prevent negative comments whether verbal or written if you play your cards smart.

This world is filled with tons of disrespect.  As long as you're intelligent,  you can and will navigate yourself which means you are kind and respectful to yourself.  🙂

I'm a good listener,  too but if respect and consideration aren't mutual,  I'm out.  You have to be strong and tough or what is the alternative?  Not in your favor.  ☹️

Very well said Cherylyn!!! We are on the same page 💞 exactly as you said, but it is all opposite of what we were told while growing up. We were told study hard in school, be good, it will be seen, and it was just to make it easier for teachers. Be friendly and smiling to everyone, light someone's day blah blah, which makes you open to be destroyed. Work hard at work, but reward for good work is just more work. Have understanding for people around you, you have no idea what they are going through blah blah, and then they just throw their trash on you... The hardest part is to unlearn it now. It just does not make sense when someone is good to me, to walk over that person. There are still good people who give good in return and we can trust, but yes, the world is full of disrespect as you said.

I hate being people pleaser and now when I got aware of it, I can not believe till what point I tolerated some people in my life. And I am still making mistakes, but at least I cut it off sooner.  I have older sister who is very assertive, and it was always strange to me how the same people treat her much better than me. They don't even think to try playing with her like with me, since always. Boundaries are the key and learning to say no without justifying like you nicely explained. 😇

[Batya33]

Just now, turtle3 said:

We were told study hard in school, be good, it will be seen, and it was just to make it easier for teachers. Be friendly and smiling to everyone, light someone's day blah blah, which makes you open to be destroyed. Work hard at work, but reward for good work is just more work. Have understanding for people around you, you have no idea what they are going through blah blah, and then they just throw their trash on you... The hardest part is to unlearn it now. It just does not make sense when someone is good to me, to walk over that person. There I are still good people who give good in return and we can trust, but yes, the world is full of disrespect as you said.

I don't think all of that is being a people pleaser.  That's being kind to other humans and showing tact and compassion and understanding.  People pleasing is doing those things mostly to gain approval and because you're afraid of not being liked -which is a self-absorbed reason.  I do small kindnesses very often and larger ones when I can/when I have the opportunity. 

But if I do something for someone who takes me for granted, or who never reciprocates, or treats me with disrespect and I keep doing it then I have to ask myself why I'm not asserting myself and saying no/having appropriate boundaries.  

I don't smile at everyone but neither do I scowl. I'm appropriately personable and appropriately friendly.  I approach this with reasonable confidence so my kindness comes from a place of confidence not neediness.

[turtle3]

28 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I don't think all of that is being a people pleaser.  That's being kind to other humans and showing tact and compassion and understanding.  People pleasing is doing those things mostly to gain approval and because you're afraid of not being liked -which is a self-absorbed reason.  I do small kindnesses very often and larger ones when I can/when I have the opportunity. 

But if I do something for someone who takes me for granted, or who never reciprocates, or treats me with disrespect and I keep doing it then I have to ask myself why I'm not asserting myself and saying no/having appropriate boundaries.  

I don't smile at everyone but neither do I scowl. I'm appropriately personable and appropriately friendly.  I approach this with reasonable confidence so my kindness comes from a place of confidence not neediness.

Batya33, it sounds like you have healthy boundaries and you know to act appropriately. This is my goal too. I am not sure is my case called people pleaser, but I did always smile to be accepted, being aware of other people's feelings, chosing words not to offend someone, listen for hours people who turn their heads when I want to say something about myself... and later being frustrated.  That was very bad relationship with myself. And bad people sense if you are easy target for whatever they need. When I was younger and dating, I taught I need to have sex when my ex wanted, even when I did not wanted it and things like that.

[Cherylyn]

4 hours ago, turtle3 said:

Very well said Cherylyn!!! We are on the same page 💞 exactly as you said, but it is all opposite of what we were told while growing up. We were told study hard in school, be good, it will be seen, and it was just to make it easier for teachers. Be friendly and smiling to everyone, light someone's day blah blah, which makes you open to be destroyed. Work hard at work, but reward for good work is just more work. Have understanding for people around you, you have no idea what they are going through blah blah, and then they just throw their trash on you... The hardest part is to unlearn it now. It just does not make sense when someone is good to me, to walk over that person. There are still good people who give good in return and we can trust, but yes, the world is full of disrespect as you said.

I hate being people pleaser and now when I got aware of it, I can not believe till what point I tolerated some people in my life. And I am still making mistakes, but at least I cut it off sooner.  I have older sister who is very assertive, and it was always strange to me how the same people treat her much better than me. They don't even think to try playing with her like with me, since always. Boundaries are the key and learning to say no without justifying like you nicely explained. 😇

Yes,  I hear you,  @turtle3.  I was raised to "go along with it,"  "don't rock the boat / don't make waves" and if you do,  you're a troublemaker to be dealt with severely.  I was raised to acquiesce,  be nice at all costs,  always receive harsh treatment without protest,  no backtalk,  put up and shut up.  Also,  many times in this culture,  it's considered super polite and ladylike to remain stoic no matter what.  Well,  to ________ with that!  I no longer subscribe to towing the line.

Nowadays,  I believe in being treated fairly and equally with consideration ALWAYS in mind.  If not,  I don't want to be with said person anymore.  My desire is dead. 

You can be reminiscent of your sister.  Don't take ________ from anyone!  Whenever people determine if you're a pushover or a tough cookie,  you will dictate how you will be treated with respect.  If they "try you" or test you sorely,   they're in for a rude awakening. 

I do miss how sweet I was back in the day but that doesn't work anymore in this day and age.  Either I'm a doormat or I toughen up and never allow to be treated that way anymore.  I've since chosen the latter instead of the former.  Life and its negative experiences is your wake up call and you start to learn quickly!  😉

[Batya33]

10 hours ago, turtle3 said:

Batya33, it sounds like you have healthy boundaries and you know to act appropriately. This is my goal too. I am not sure is my case called people pleaser, but I did always smile to be accepted, being aware of other people's feelings, chosing words not to offend someone, listen for hours people who turn their heads when I want to say something about myself... and later being frustrated.  That was very bad relationship with myself. And bad people sense if you are easy target for whatever they need. When I was younger and dating, I taught I need to have sex when my ex wanted, even when I did not wanted it and things like that.

Yes if you do that with people who take you for granted and/or never reciprocate but we do kindnesses not for reciprocal stuff but because we want to from a position of confidence. We also teach people how to treat us so don't act like a doormat -like -a kindness is holding the door for someone or letting your neighbor in who forgot her key even if it is inconvenient for you.  It doesn't mean also carrying all her packages upstairs while your ice cream melts.

Example -when I was pregnant and rushing off to work my across the hall neighbor who was an older person needed a favor all of a sudden -not anything like an emergency.  I could not be late for work that day and waas moving slowly plus I was exhausted from pregnancy.  I told her I was really sorry but I couldn't help her right then perhaps later. 

She was obviously not pleased -but instead of being a people pleaser and being late for my boss I had boundaries. I also had boundaries when later I explained to her about my work situation and my pregnancy (not sure if I was showing) and I asked if she still needed help. 

She ended up buying my baby a really cute baby blanket and we got along great.  So -- I annoyed her at first-didn't "please" her - I stuck to my priorities -my job/my livelihood and not being able to rush as fast given pregnancy -then I from a position of confidence explained it to her later.  She respected that.  Had she not -oh well....... Had it been an emergency I would have helped her and called my boss. 

I've also had several situations now where friends get involved in MLMs and hit me up to join online "parties" or demonstrations, to meet up so they can tout their new business, and I always say up front "I will never buy any product from you/this company so I don't want to waste your time" as opposed to being "nice" and a "good friend" and spending mind numbing time at a presentation (yes I relented once for five minutes and she without my permission added me to her group -so I left the group -boundaries).

The answer is not to be a cold witch to everyone lest you become a people pleaser -if your goal is kindness/compassion/humanness we take the time to balance as in my example. 

Having sex to please someone else and not because you want to is not having a healthy boundary. But the answer is not to refuse sex unless you're 100% into it - for sure sometimes in a relationship even if you're not totally in the mood you do your best to get yourself in the mood so you can also be there for your partner -you take care of yourself/get enough sleep, and if your partner is in the mood and you are sort of despite being  "tired" perhaps you do start to have romantic time and see how it goes.  It's not an either or.

[turtle3]

On 5/9/2023 at 6:24 AM, Cherylyn said:

Yes,  I hear you,  @turtle3.  I was raised to "go along with it,"  "don't rock the boat / don't make waves" and if you do,  you're a troublemaker to be dealt with severely.  I was raised to acquiesce,  be nice at all costs,  always receive harsh treatment without protest,  no backtalk,  put up and shut up.  Also,  many times in this culture,  it's considered super polite and ladylike to remain stoic no matter what.  Well,  to ________ with that!  I no longer subscribe to towing the line.

Nowadays,  I believe in being treated fairly and equally with consideration ALWAYS in mind.  If not,  I don't want to be with said person anymore.  My desire is dead. 

You can be reminiscent of your sister.  Don't take ________ from anyone!  Whenever people determine if you're a pushover or a tough cookie,  you will dictate how you will be treated with respect.  If they "try you" or test you sorely,   they're in for a rude awakening. 

I do miss how sweet I was back in the day but that doesn't work anymore in this day and age.  Either I'm a doormat or I toughen up and never allow to be treated that way anymore.  I've since chosen the latter instead of the former.  Life and its negative experiences is your wake up call and you start to learn quickly!  😉

Yes Cherylyn, yes!!! Like I am listening to myself 🌞 Sometimes I think that I had so much luck in life, when I consider how naive, open, friendly and always ready to put others first I was. I was literally doormat for people around me asking permission to live my life, others always knew what is better for me. I am 37 ad still learning, still making mistakes, but not as big as before.

It is very complex to live with other people and we should always be alerted. For example I know now that I have to be careful what I tell friends, because friends are very jealous too. Never talk about how much I earn and what side jobs I do. During studies I used to help other students, giving old question paper I had that no one gave to me, I had to fail exams to see those questions, and at the end same people after passing would say oh I passed from first attempt, you are not capable like I am?!?!?!?! People just use us, and at the end I am the stupid and frustrated one. And things like that, we must always balance and consider who to help, how to pretend stupid, where not to react, it is also manipulation, because we need other people too.

 

Complicated 😂

[turtle3]

On 5/9/2023 at 12:53 PM, Batya33 said:

Yes if you do that with people who take you for granted and/or never reciprocate but we do kindnesses not for reciprocal stuff but because we want to from a position of confidence. We also teach people how to treat us so don't act like a doormat -like -a kindness is holding the door for someone or letting your neighbor in who forgot her key even if it is inconvenient for you.  It doesn't mean also carrying all her packages upstairs while your ice cream melts.

Example -when I was pregnant and rushing off to work my across the hall neighbor who was an older person needed a favor all of a sudden -not anything like an emergency.  I could not be late for work that day and waas moving slowly plus I was exhausted from pregnancy.  I told her I was really sorry but I couldn't help her right then perhaps later. 

She was obviously not pleased -but instead of being a people pleaser and being late for my boss I had boundaries. I also had boundaries when later I explained to her about my work situation and my pregnancy (not sure if I was showing) and I asked if she still needed help. 

She ended up buying my baby a really cute baby blanket and we got along great.  So -- I annoyed her at first-didn't "please" her - I stuck to my priorities -my job/my livelihood and not being able to rush as fast given pregnancy -then I from a position of confidence explained it to her later.  She respected that.  Had she not -oh well....... Had it been an emergency I would have helped her and called my boss. 

I've also had several situations now where friends get involved in MLMs and hit me up to join online "parties" or demonstrations, to meet up so they can tout their new business, and I always say up front "I will never buy any product from you/this company so I don't want to waste your time" as opposed to being "nice" and a "good friend" and spending mind numbing time at a presentation (yes I relented once for five minutes and she without my permission added me to her group -so I left the group -boundaries).

The answer is not to be a cold witch to everyone lest you become a people pleaser -if your goal is kindness/compassion/humanness we take the time to balance as in my example. 

Having sex to please someone else and not because you want to is not having a healthy boundary. But the answer is not to refuse sex unless you're 100% into it - for sure sometimes in a relationship even if you're not totally in the mood you do your best to get yourself in the mood so you can also be there for your partner -you take care of yourself/get enough sleep, and if your partner is in the mood and you are sort of despite being  "tired" perhaps you do start to have romantic time and see how it goes.  It's not an either or.

Batya33 you really have healthy boundaries. You did right when you were pregnant and your neighbour asked you for favor, and you were in rush for work. Also those friends adding you to groups and you immediately leaving those groups is very assertive.

It is also important to act in those situations immediately. I let people push me in and later I don't know how to get out trying to find excuses not to offend anyone. Problem in putting other people first is when you put them before you, at the end they expect that from you over and over again. And you do them 100 times favor, 101st time you say now is enough, they get upset and tell you that you are the worst person in the world. Also they are not happy how you do it for them. So the point is to not let people to pull you in in their ***s. On time. Not to get in in the first place.

I had so many times to ask myself why am I in those situations to be treated so badly, and I was the problem. I also have very strong empathy. Recently one friend asked me if I can help one guy from Syria, he wants to learn german, and I speak german. I felt sad for him being refugee and I was teaching him without asking for money. We had 5 classes. Do you know how it ended, he was at the end laughing to me, we were doing online classes, he would not appear on time for class, I was waiting for him to wake up for hours, he started answering messages on the phone while class, watching videos and at the end telling my friend how terrible teacher I am. And he is 30 years old, not some kid. This is thank you I got for trying to help someone in need. So yes, now I learned again.

[Batya33]

37 minutes ago, turtle3 said:

. I also have very strong empathy. Recently one friend asked me if I can help one guy from Syria, he wants to learn german, and I speak german. I felt sad for him being refugee and I was teaching him without asking for money. We had 5 classes. Do you know how it ended, he was at the end laughing to me, we were doing online classes, he would not appear on time for class, I was waiting for him to wake up for hours, he started answering messages on the phone while class, watching videos and at the end telling my friend how terrible teacher I am. And he is 30 years old, not some kid. This is thank you I got for trying to help someone in need. So yes, now I learned again.

So again this doesn't mean what you were taught years ago is wrong.  This is an individual issue you have with boundaries.  It's great to be an empathetic person if your empathy comes from a position of reasonable confidence.  In this example you chose to wait "for hours" - that doesn't sound like a person with reasonable boundaries. 

You also kept working for free when he was acting disrespectfully.  So please don't be surprised this individual person didn't "thank" you and again -truly empathetic and giving people don't expect a thank you -many will leave anonymous care packages/donations at people's homes or donate online anonymously and never get a thank you as it's anonymous - that's the highest form of giving when the person in need doesn't even know (obviously not possible with teaching someone).

Learn boundaries.  Stop lauding yourself for how nice you are/how empathetic you are - that's awesome -but a diversion for now because you need to work on the boundaries skill not the empathy skill.  Then when you learn the boundaries skill you will then use your empathy appropriately. Then you can go back to appreciating what a nice and empathetic person you are.

I have to teach my son -for free- regularly.  I often set boundaries in advance "I will help you with your math if you sit still here and don't look at your phone/computer.  If you do we're done."  I set up my requirements in advance.  Totally fine to do that with an adult "I will meet you for coffee to help you with your resume/upcoming interview if you can come at X time to X place.  Also if you are more than 15 minutes late I'll have to leave and run errands" (for someone who has been late in the past).  

 

[turtle3]

20 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

So again this doesn't mean what you were taught years ago is wrong.  This is an individual issue you have with boundaries.  It's great to be an empathetic person if your empathy comes from a position of reasonable confidence.  In this example you chose to wait "for hours" - that doesn't sound like a person with reasonable boundaries. 

You also kept working for free when he was acting disrespectfully.  So please don't be surprised this individual person didn't "thank" you and again -truly empathetic and giving people don't expect a thank you -many will leave anonymous care packages/donations at people's homes or donate online anonymously and never get a thank you as it's anonymous - that's the highest form of giving when the person in need doesn't even know (obviously not possible with teaching someone).

Learn boundaries.  Stop lauding yourself for how nice you are/how empathetic you are - that's awesome -but a diversion for now because you need to work on the boundaries skill not the empathy skill.  Then when you learn the boundaries skill you will then use your empathy appropriately. Then you can go back to appreciating what a nice and empathetic person you are.

I have to teach my son -for free- regularly.  I often set boundaries in advance "I will help you with your math if you sit still here and don't look at your phone/computer.  If you do we're done."  I set up my requirements in advance.  Totally fine to do that with an adult "I will meet you for coffee to help you with your resume/upcoming interview if you can come at X time to X place.  Also if you are more than 15 minutes late I'll have to leave and run errands" (for someone who has been late in the past).  

 

Batya33 i agree till some point with you, but you see what you wrote, truly emphatetic person leaves donations and so without expecting thank you and so. From what you wrote it looks like I was expecting something, which is not true. I really wanted to help him, since I had also free time. But now I look like bad person who expected snt, i am kind of frustrated bcs he fooled me and my family thinks I am crazy giving classes without money in advance. And all that would not happen if I have said I don't care he is poor refugee, i do not work for free. I am the guilty one wanting to help, I am the guilty one waiting for him for sure and continuing to teach him after disrespect. It is just one example. And I am aware. Point is to not let people pull you in and cut it off on time, not to think ok it happens he fell asleep for example and so.

[boltnrun]

I recommend the book "Codependent No More". You could also look into CODA meetings in your area. 

[catfeeder]

Yay, Turtle! I think the way you declined him was absolutely perfect! It was honest and simple. Good job!

Also, congrats on your new job. This is a wonderful time of changes for you, and I’m so glad!

EnjOy!