Friend's extreme fear of Covid has returned

[WorkSux56]

On 4/15/2023 at 11:33 AM, catfeeder said:

Sounds like she's intimidated. There were no social pressures in 20 and 21 when those of us who could isolate knew we were in the good global company of no company.

Some people feel challenged now and long for those days, so they're still trying to talk everyone else back into sharing that collective cocoon. Your friend is e-socializing with like minded people. That feels validating and safe for her.

We can't force someone to want what they don't want. Pursuing help would mean doing the work of 'desensitizing' to the external world in order to rejoin it, and that's exactly what friend does NOT want to do at this time. 

You can't talk her into wanting the opposite of what she wants. No matter how 'right' you may be, it's not a license to get your way. Your job isn't to 'win' this contest, it's to figure out what you can productively do with the time YOU have been investing in this person that will not pay off.

Put your focus back on YOU, and find your own passions and interests and friends beyond this person. She's not your project.

Just like she can’t talk me into returning to 2020. Just kind of ranting for a minute, I can’t for the life of me fathom why anyone would want to time travel back to that. For me it was an extremely dark time. Contrary to what she proclaims, I did take it very seriously. But I also knew that there would come a time when society would need to resume and learn to live with Covid as best we could. We’ve come a long way from the early days of it, at least from my observations. But….I can’t tell her that. Or I can, and she nods like she agrees but deep down, her heart and mind are in 2020 never land. I can’t help but wonder what others who know her think. I haven’t asked them, but I wonder if they’ve grown weary of mask and toilet paper memes 3 years later. I haven’t said anything to her, but I’ve said many a time to myself “dang girl, we get it. People went crazy and bought up all the toilet paper in early 2020”. But…I can sit and shake my head and have all the consternation in the world over it and it won’t change a thing. I can’t put the round peg in the square hole. My efforts will simply be better served with someone else 

[WorkSux56]

9 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

Okay, I am almost 57 years old and this is the only world pandemic I have lived through. My one set of grandparents lived through the last one. My grandmother was born in 1906. 117 years ago. These things are not very common and usually about every 5 generations or so. She needs to start examining science and history. 

Exactly. That’s the thing that gets me. She’s certainly much smarter than she’s been acting lately. She should be able to reason and grasp that we aren’t going to see something like this again in this lifetime. 

[Batya33]

10 minutes ago, WorkSux56 said:

Exactly. That’s the thing that gets me. She’s certainly much smarter than she’s been acting lately. She should be able to reason and grasp that we aren’t going to see something like this again in this lifetime. 

Anxiety doesn't know from reasoning and intellect. I had a phobia for many years -emetophobia. I am a smart and reasonable person.  It wasn't about that -reasoning had no impact on me when I was in the throes of panic over it.  I still have the fear but I had an a ha/epiphany about 10 years ago about it -on my own -not reasoning just a deep seated epiphany -and now instead of being phobic I'm just plain fearful but it means it doesn't interfere with my life the way it used to around specific situations and activities.  

[Batya33]

Also it's really a matter of opinion -she sounds very judgey!! Like I still wear a mask in stores and I was pretty sure someone stared at me today because of it. I don't give a hoot -I'm hurting no one and inconveniencing no one by wearing a mask when I go food shopping.  But I would never at this point especially require someone to wear a mask around me unless they had covid and we had to meet in person indoors for some reason and couldn't reschedule.  And last year on a long international flight I wore a mask and this passenger who wanted to stretch her legs chose to do so at my seat (aisle seat) sort of hanging over me.  For more than a minute or so. No mask.  So at some point I asked her to please give me space. 

There are still IMO some situations where I feel a mask is advisable but I don't dictate what others do - I only decide my comfort level.  My son stopped wearing masks at school and I'm good with it -and sometimes they require masks like if there is an outbreak and he complies.  I have not declined any gathering for well over a year based on fear of covid/covid risk.  Maybe even closer to 2 years.  

I would -full stop -avoid any contact with her on this topic including on social media.  Don't feed the fear in essence. 

[boltnrun]

27 minutes ago, WorkSux56 said:

Exactly. That’s the thing that gets me. She’s certainly much smarter than she’s been acting lately. She should be able to reason and grasp that we aren’t going to see something like this again in this lifetime. 

Anxiety doesn't respond to reason or logic. It would be terrific if it did. It also has nothing to do with intelligence. Anxious people aren't unintelligent or stupid. They have a mental health condition. Someone who suffers from leukemia or heart disease isn't unintelligent. I doubt people would tell someone who has bone cancer "you're just not acting smart."

It's difficult for people who are fortunate enough not to suffer from mental health issues to understand. Believe me, I would have loved to be one of those people who shrugged at the pandemic. I envied those people. But unfortunately I'm not. 

I understand you're having trouble feeling compassion for her debilitating anxiety. Maybe look at it as something to feel sad for her about instead of finding it annoying or as interfering with how you would like to interact with her.

She can probably use a non-judgmental friend right now. Could you be that for her? However if you find being around her frustrating perhaps  it would be best to step back.

Also, she should not be judging you for how you choose to conduct yourself. Respect should go both ways. You can ask her to stop grilling you about your activities or choices. It's not for her to dictate how you conduct your life. 

[WorkSux56]

@boltnrun I wasn’t saying that I didn’t empathize with the anxiety. Not at all. I was referring to when she says she believes that another pandemic is “right around the corner”. The likelihood of that is not high, considering the one prior to Covid was 100 years earlier. I’m saying that I wish she’d look at it that way. I never said that I didn’t emphasize with her anxiety. No, the next pandemic isn’t “right around the corner. That much I can say with a great deal of confidence and I’ve said it to her so as to hopefully ease her mind a bit. I assure you that I DID I repeat DID take the Covid 19 pandemic very seriously. I didn’t shrug it off. Look, even if another one did hit, I would not have the latitude to return to my home and stay there like before. It’s not that simple. So please don’t make assumptions that I was one of the ones who just said “eh…it’s just the flu…no biggie”. For your information, I had to make some very tough decisions during the height of Covid. Like chance being killed by a tornado or chance the contracting the virus. You think that was easy? Knock on wood, when I had to chance the virus so as to be in a tornado shelter with a lot of people who were having to do the same thing, I somehow got lucky and didn’t catch it. But to some people, that was me “not taking the pandemic seriously” 

[Batya33]

33 minutes ago, WorkSux56 said:

I assure you that I DID I repeat DID take the Covid 19 pandemic very seriously

Why so defensive? You feel you did according to the standards you followed and according to her standards you didn't.  She's entitled to her opinion -but her choice to share that opinion and  get all judgey is a poor choice IMO. "Taking it seriously" from what I saw ran the gamut -wide range and some interesting "choices" that often involved convoluted reasoning IMO (which I didn't comment on). But those people also believed they were taking it very seriously so....

[Seraphim]

I heat you Covid was hard for everyone . My dad chose to die because it made his life too difficult. He was dialysis dependent and physically disabled and no one could help him . So he stopped his dialysis and it took him 10 days to die. My step dad died of congestive heart failure due to no healthcare because he couldn’t get the testing he needed. My husband couldn’t see his dying father for two years until the day before he died. The entire time was so heart breaking for the entire world. 
 

Like the last pandemic the world continued and carried on and humans are resourceful and resilient that way. We will continue . I wish I could have talked to my grandmother how she lived through the last pandemic, but she died in 1980. 

[boltnrun]

But again, you are applying logic. It works for you because you are fortunate enough to not suffer from debilitating anxiety. It's hard for you to understand that she honestly does believe another pandemic is not only possible but probable. It's like people who are afraid to fly in airplanes. No amount of telling them that airplane travel is actually much safer than traveling via car is going to eliminate their fear of dying in an airplane crash. They are convinced if they fly, they'll die. Heck, I know people who won't order food to be delivered because they are 100% positive the delivery drivers spit in the food just for jollies. 

You two will not be able to convince the other one you're right or more accurate or have the facts correct. 

I just don't see you two reaching a common ground on this subject, unfortunately. It's a shame. 

And BTW, I wasn't saying YOU were blase about the pandemic. Just that many people felt no fear at all. Their attitude was "well, if I get it I get it, so be it." Those are the people I envied, not the ones who insisted Covid was nothing or was a hoax. 

[WorkSux56]

11 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Why so defensive? You feel you did according to the standards you followed and according to her standards you didn't.  She's entitled to her opinion -but her choice to share that opinion and  get all judgey is a poor choice IMO. "Taking it seriously" from what I saw ran the gamut -wide range and some interesting "choices" that often involved convoluted reasoning IMO (which I didn't comment on). But those people also believed they were taking it very seriously so....

You’re right. Who in the world knows what “taking it seriously” really looked like, As we were told time and again all throughout the whole ordeal “there is no one size fits all” 

[WorkSux56]

11 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

But again, you are applying logic. It works for you because you are fortunate enough to not suffer from debilitating anxiety. It's hard for you to understand that she honestly does believe another pandemic is not only possible but probable. It's like people who are afraid to fly in airplanes. No amount of telling them that airplane travel is actually much safer than traveling via car is going to eliminate their fear of dying in an airplane crash. They are convinced if they fly, they'll die. Heck, I know people who won't order food to be delivered because they are 100% positive the delivery drivers spit in the food just for jollies. 

You two will not be able to convince the other one you're right or more accurate or have the facts correct. 

I just don't see you two reaching a common ground on this subject, unfortunately. It's a shame. 

And BTW, I wasn't saying YOU were blase about the pandemic. Just that many people felt no fear at all. Their attitude was "well, if I get it I get it, so be it." Those are the people I envied, not the ones who insisted Covid was nothing or was a hoax. 

I apologize. I should not have been so knee jerky. You’re right. Her and I are at an impasse on this subject. I told her last time we spoke (in a sarcastic manner) that I hoped I could find toilet paper on my next trip to the store and she responded that if I couldn’t to let her know. Like…she didn’t get the sarcasm. I started to say “umm…you know I’m joking, right?” But I declined on saying anything. The fact that she responded as if we were in the days of the toilet paper craze really told me a lot. I’m to the point of praying for her, just so she can get some sort of peace of mind, even if it’s just a little bit. My response to you was of the knee jerk variety and I do apologize 

[Batya33]

6 minutes ago, WorkSux56 said:

You’re right. Who in the world knows what “taking it seriously” really looked like, As we were told time and again all throughout the whole ordeal “there is no one size fits all” 

I mean there were extremes on both ends right -the people who refused to modify their lives at all and the people who became hermits basically.  But in between there was the friend who took it extremely seriously and contracted it during an uber ride she believed -an uber ride she was taking in order to go get a manicure.  I took it very seriously and decided to go to Vegas after vaccines were available and I was fully vaccinated -by plane -end of 2021.  Some would probably think that's really risky (and it likely was!) but I made that decision as did my family. 

I had a friend who thought she should cancel her vacation because it was selfish to expose others to the virus (which she didn't have) and another friend who took it very seriously, traveled all over but wouldn't eat indoors at a restaurant.  I'm sure you have many examples like that as well.

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, WorkSux56 said:

. She should be able to reason and grasp that we aren’t going to see something like this again in this lifetime. 

Howard Hughes became a recluse later in life, so you never know what goes through people's minds or what precipitated it or if whatever phobia is just an explanation for being recluse.

In this case, it seems the Covid pandemic precipitated this.

It's unfortunate watch a friendship slip away, but she seems stuck in her own head on this.

[Seraphim]

16 minutes ago, WorkSux56 said:

I apologize. I should not have been so knee jerky. You’re right. Her and I are at an impasse on this subject. I told her last time we spoke (in a sarcastic manner) that I hoped I could find toilet paper on my next trip to the store and she responded that if I couldn’t to let her know. Like…she didn’t get the sarcasm. I started to say “umm…you know I’m joking, right?” But I declined on saying anything. The fact that she responded as if we were in the days of the toilet paper craze really told me a lot. I’m to the point of praying for her, just so she can get some sort of peace of mind, even if it’s just a little bit. My response to you was of the knee jerk variety and I do apologize 

I understand crippling anxiety as well as I have panic disorder and debilitating medical phobias and claustrophobia. I also had agoraphobia when I had a nervous breakdown and had to literally continuously force myself outside . I did have a lot of fears around the pandemic but I HAD to get over it as my work entirely is centred around people. ( I own a daycare) So if I wanted to financially survive I just had to live with it. 
 

I would just refuse to discuss this topic with her . 

[boltnrun]

Anxiety is not a choice. What IS a choice is remaining in a self imposed Covid isolation fog. I chose to deal with my fear and anxiety by getting intensive professional treatment by medical doctors and a psychologist. But many people don't believe they need help and therefore will remain isolated and fearful. It's really sad. 

I'm sorry she is choosing to remain anxious and fearful. I'm also sorry she's choosing to be judgmental toward your decisions on how to conduct your life. 

[WorkSux56]

Just now, boltnrun said:

Anxiety is not a choice. What IS a choice is remaining in a self imposed Covid isolation fog. I chose to deal with my fear and anxiety by getting intensive professional treatment by medical doctors and a psychologist. But many people don't believe they need help and therefore will remain isolated and fearful. It's really sad. 

I'm sorry she is choosing to remain anxious and fearful. I'm also sorry she's choosing to be judgmental toward your decisions on how to conduct your life. 

It’s really disheartening because she has been a good friend in the past. When my dad died in 2017, she made me her number one priority, even though her dad had died not terribly long before that. She put her own grief second so as to care for me. I guess that’s why I’m hoping against hope that we can navigate through this somehow. She has qualities that are really hard to find 

[boltnrun]

I would say the only way would be for the two of you to completely avoid the subject of Covid.  No more "jokes" about TP or staying home because you know she won't think they're funny.  And if she starts in on you about not taking Covid "seriously", maybe tell her you would prefer to talk about something else.  Ignore her memes and posts about Covid that are outdated or have been debunked.  Resist the temptation to "correct" her or to present her with facts.  Just try to completely avoid the topic.

And maybe reiterate to her how good a friend you view her as.  She could probably use some positive reinforcement because I'm willing to bet she's getting a lot of flack for her continued adherence to outdated safety protocols.

For the most part my family and friends were kind.  Some of them tried to "lighten things up" by cracking jokes and some tried to use facts and logic.  I explained to them that those things are ineffective against anxiety, but I was doing my best by getting intensive professional treatment.  And I thanked everyone who was kind and patient.  Those people meant the world to me during a very difficult time.

[SherrySher]

Try to keep in mind, OP, that this is anxiety speaking, not your friend.

Anxiety can be overwhelming and defies all logic.

You can't sit down with your friend and try to explain why her fears aren't reasonable, anxiety doesn't work that way.

Anxiety convinces the person that this is absolutely true, even if there is all kinds of reasons, even facts, to show that the fear is not true.

Your friend has lost loved ones to Covid, that has proven to her more than once that Covid is a killer.

If a threat happened more than once, and someone died more than once. How could you convince yourself that the treat won't kill again?

All your brain would be stuck on, is the death, and the trauma from it all. 

It's not easy to get out of that. It's a continuous cycle, and your friend is caught in it.

It's a significant case of PTSD and she needs help trying to cope.

Honestly, I empathize with her, I truly do.

She is stuck, and she has had so much loss due to Covid.

I can see why she is telling herself to do everything possible now to not have more bad things happen.

It must be such a frightening place to be in when the whole world still feels like a threat.

I think when it comes to you and her having a relationship, if I am honest, you don't sound compatible.

She needs someone who is going to be 100% supportive, 100% understanding, and 100% gentle and patient with her.

That's not to say she needs someone who goes along with her fears and masks up and stays home, scared.

It means, she needs someone who can see that she is suffering from a great deal of anxiety that is not her choice, not under her control, and is making her life a living hell.

She can't choose to shut it off. She is not doing this on purpose, she can't will her self out of this, or talk herself out of this.

It's anxiety. It's much the same as any other problem in the body. The brain can glitch too, and is another body part that doesn't work right.

You wouldn't get upset at someone who had a broken leg and demanded they force themself to walk because them not walking is annoying you, and frustrating you and they are ruining a good time, right?

That would be cruel.

But the brain not working right and being ill due to significant trauma, is no different.

Your friend needs therapy, possibly even medication to help get her out of this cycle. She needs someone who is willing to not only be understanding, but patient and loving enough to help her out of this dark place...which unfortunately, could take months, even years.

If you're not that person, it's best to admit that to yourself and to her.

But please don't be angry, upset, annoyed, impatient,  or disappointed with her.

She literally can't help it. I doubt very much she wants to live like this either (it's like living in a continuous nightmare that never goes away).

She is battling her brain right now and the thoughts and fears it keeps forcing her to think.

Trying to reason with her and what her brain is doing, will not work. (broken leg example).

Or try to think of it like a skipping record. Her brain is going over the trauma, again, and again. It's not her choice, this is her brain not functioning right (glitching) due to the trauma. It could even be a chemical imbalance, which again is a medical issue and not her doing.

Just try to be there for her, no judgement, no upset, or forcing.

Gently bring up therapy, let her know it's because you care and because you don't want to see her suffering like this.

If she refuses, then be okay with her not being ready just yet.

Being her friend first and showing kindness first, matters more than anything else right now.

As for discussing Covid, if she feels more comfortable with you wearing a mask when and if you visit, I don't think it's unreasonable if it brings her a bit of anxiety relief.

But as for agreeing with her fears and phobias, just be gentle.

Let her know that Covid isn't the threat it once was, that you don't feel another pandemic will happen.

If she gets upset and wants to argue why it's not true (remind yourself again about anxiety and it taking over her thoughts and fears right now and that it's not actually her).

Gently let her know that maybe it's best to talk about something else.

If the above scenario happens again (which is most likely will, as in broken record), follow the same steps, but with patience and kindness.

I hope she can eventually get help and get some relief.

Anxiety can be so devastating. 

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, SherrySher said:

If she gets upset and wants to argue why it's not true (remind yourself again about anxiety and it taking over her thoughts and fears right now and that it's not actually her).

Gently let her know that maybe it's best to talk about something else.

I love all of Sherry's post. I quoted this because I also think it's ok to step aside and take space -I mean sure go over and wear a mask if it wil help but it's also ok to take care of yourself and realize you can't keep going in this circle with her and the reminding yourself/repeating steps just isn't keeping reasonable peace.

I stepped away from a friendship of several years which was mostly over the phone (we met once in person actually through a message board like this, not this).  She developed mental health issues related to her hypochondria and became obsessive over a certain health condition she believed she had and wanted to talk incessantly about all her research, doctors visits, hospital visits.  It's extremely difficult to take space from someone who is suffering but I didn't think our talks helped /her venting to me (possibly made it worse -I just listened, didn't argue), plus I am able to check in with her and her family members from a distance. 

She changed dramatically -her personality, her way of speaking, she rarely asked about me which was a total 180.  If she reached out to me again I would take the call but it's ok to take care of yourself too -I found the interactions/conversations and the photos she'd send me disturbing, unsettling and I knew I couldn't help more. 

I know you highly value this friendship but taking space is an option because if you are not equipped to walk beside her so to speak when she's going through this and you've done all you feel you can, maybe reconciling after she's on "the other side" -hopefully she'll choose to get help -would be better all around and for the friendship.

Good luck and I'm sorry both of you are having a hard time!

[SherrySher]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

I quoted this because I also think it's ok to step aside and take space -I mean sure go over and wear a mask if it will help but it's also ok to take care of yourself and realize you can't keep going in this circle with her and the reminding yourself/repeating steps just isn't keeping reasonable peace.

You definitely have a point, Batya. x

I think it's healthy too to be honest with yourself on what you're able to manage and not manage.

Despite knowing the basics of anxiety, as her friend, it doesn't mean you can emotionally cope or help her.

And that's okay too if you need to step back because it's starting to overwhelm you.

I do sincerely think this lady could benefit from professional therapy.

I hope she realizes that it would be a good option for her. 

[WorkSux56]

When she started to live again, her mindset was "goodbye Covid fears". She even said as much. Then a relative got Covid for the second time and she was right back into the early, pre-vaccine and uncertain days of the pandemic. Her relative recovered in no time and even said that his second bout with Covid was barely noticeable. That relative has spoken with her at length and told her that his second bout with the virus should serve as proof that it's ok to live again, as the virus does not present the danger that it once did. I know that she WANTS to overcome it. She even said that she misses hiking and camping something fierce. I hurt for her there, because I know how much she LOVES those activities. I think that it's going to take a long period of time where nobody that she knows contracts the virus. Had that relative not caught it again, I believe she'd be ok right now, as she had started to live again. I wished I had not made the sarcastic remark about how I hoped I could find TP in the stores, because she freaked out. Like she thought it was happening again. I did tell her that it was probably a good idea to chill with the outdated posts and memes, and the only reason I said something there was, she mentioned that she was being unfriended left and right on social media. She went from over 100 friends on FB to less than 10. I told her "I don't say chill with the outdated posts to be indifferent towards what you're going through. I say it because it's causing people to walk away". And it seems that she took what I said to heart. I don't want to jump up and down and get too excited just yet, but her tenor seems a little different now.  She does seem like she's in a frame of mind of "ok....deep breaths....maybe I can try again". So...fingers crossed. 

[Batya33]

I think she's too invested in covid and you're way too invested in her.  I'd step back from this for awhile.

[boltnrun]

Also, if she needs to "change" to be right for you, it means she's wrong for you. Any 'if onlys" or "if she could justs" indicate incompatibility. No matter how well you two mesh in other areas. 

[SherrySher]

6 hours ago, WorkSux56 said:

When she started to live again, her mindset was "goodbye Covid fears". She even said as much. Then a relative got Covid for the second time and she was right back into the early, pre-vaccine and uncertain days of the pandemic. Her relative recovered in no time and even said that his second bout with Covid was barely noticeable. That relative has spoken with her at length and told her that his second bout with the virus should serve as proof that it's ok to live again, as the virus does not present the danger that it once did. I know that she WANTS to overcome it. She even said that she misses hiking and camping something fierce. I hurt for her there, because I know how much she LOVES those activities. I think that it's going to take a long period of time where nobody that she knows contracts the virus. Had that relative not caught it again, I believe she'd be ok right now, as she had started to live again. I wished I had not made the sarcastic remark about how I hoped I could find TP in the stores, because she freaked out. Like she thought it was happening again. I did tell her that it was probably a good idea to chill with the outdated posts and memes, and the only reason I said something there was, she mentioned that she was being unfriended left and right on social media. She went from over 100 friends on FB to less than 10. I told her "I don't say chill with the outdated posts to be indifferent towards what you're going through. I say it because it's causing people to walk away". And it seems that she took what I said to heart. I don't want to jump up and down and get too excited just yet, but her tenor seems a little different now.  She does seem like she's in a frame of mind of "ok....deep breaths....maybe I can try again". So...fingers crossed. 

It truly does bother me that so many people shut her out or walked away due to her posting all the memes, etc on Facebook.

If I seen a friend posting stuff like that, it would signal to me that this person was struggling and needs help.

People are so cold now a days, they dump people not only so quickly, but so easily.

😞 Truly sad.

[WorkSux56]

19 hours ago, SherrySher said:

It truly does bother me that so many people shut her out or walked away due to her posting all the memes, etc on Facebook.

If I seen a friend posting stuff like that, it would signal to me that this person was struggling and needs help.

People are so cold now a days, they dump people not only so quickly, but so easily.

😞 Truly sad.

You're right. Seeing so many people walk away from her was sad. I will say this though. She had gotten to where all she would post were things from 2020. That included posting those things to friends pages, even after they had asked her more than a few times not to do it. That included not only virus memes, but also outdated news stories about the racial injustice protests. Politics got involved and that rarely, if ever, lead to anything good.  So, she didn't exactly do herself any favors there. Still, I wished it didn't result in so many people leaving her