Two cats, tension in home, medication, what to do?

[Alex39]

5 hours ago, Coily said:

I have had a few cats through the years, and the ones which tended to act aggressive like Damon is portraying tend to need a lot more attention. He's in need of some good quality time with his human, and yes while he does get played with it may not be exclusive enough for him. Have you shut Lola away so you can play with him exclusively?

Depending on the size of your place, could you put both of them in their own spaces at night, with neither being in your bedroom? If you can do this, Lola will need to be put up first, so Damon can see he's getting some territorial dominance.

Also is he a specific breed? A friend of mine who has three, when she moved had to seperate them until the got comfortable in the new house, then slowly integrated them back together.

How much other stimulation do they get? Do they have windoe to look out of, can you take them outside (even if you have to halter train them).

I live in a place where my cats can come and go as they please, so they burn a lot of energy that way; but that's not the case for most people. But giving them places to explore and hide helps most cats burn up that energy.

It could be that you need to rehome one, but try some of the recommendations and see if you can make some progress.

They have tons of windows and love looking out them. I even bought lots of window benches and stools so they can look out. 

I do think Damon needs a lot of care. I am trying my best. I have to work. I go in about three days for 4 to 6 hours. 

I work the other days at home randomly. 

I try and play with them inthe evenings. 

Damon tends to take over play time most times. The toys are his and Lola backs down. 

As for hiding, I have two bedrooms with beds, 5 bedroom closets open all the time, a cocoucha cat condo, a cat tunnel, and now I even leave amazon boxes around. Damon loves running in the boxes turned sideways. My house looked a wreck, with boxes, but I'm trying. 

 

[LootieTootie]

I'm pretty sure you can look for another therapist...

One of the reasons why you're so scared of Damon is because you aren't willing to put in the work to discipline him.  

I am pretty good at being a cat wrangler because I've had to put some cats in their place but I get it, it's not the easiest and ideal for someone who doesn't like to get hurt. So may I suggest you look in to a vibrating cat collars for deterrent of bad habits? For both cats. Hopefully if your cats are super sensitive to the vibration when you press it, it will stop them when you noticed they're doing something they're not supposed to.

Animals are smart and once you show them something, they pick up real fast.

 

 

 

[Alex39]

I feel so bad. I read that cat bullies can even try to bully the other cat away from their owner, because they want their owner for themselves. I think this is Damon. Every night he runs at her, swatting her when she's on the couch with me or in bed with me. He wants her to go away and him just be with me. Tonight he was going after her, swatting her on the couch, running at her. As soon as she left the area because of him, he laid down with me on the couch. He just wants me. Before I brought her in, he loved being with me 24/7 and cuddling and loving me. Now he feels frustrated that she's taking that from him. 

 

He doesn't want to share me. I think that's the main issue. I'd be happy with both of them cuddling with me. And they have before, but most nights, I think he wants me as he's trying to run her off. 

[LootieTootie]

12 minutes ago, Alex39 said:

I feel so bad. I read that cat bullies can even try to bully the other cat away from their owner, because they want their owner for themselves. I think this is Damon. Every night he runs at her, swatting her when she's on the couch with me or in bed with me. He wants her to go away and him just be with me. Tonight he was going after her, swatting her on the couch, running at her. As soon as she left the area because of him, he laid down with me on the couch. He just wants me. 

get a small kennel and put Lola inside, lock her up. This can be her safe space. Put her close to you and Damon, while you're watching TV. 

What you're doing is you're reintroducing her in to the family and she needs to be "approved" by Damon. Damon feels threatened by her for whatever reason. 

Same thing with play time with Damon. Put Lola in a kennel and have her stay in there while she watches you and Damon play. 

He needs to see that she's there but she isn't all over you and that might reassure him that this isn't about territory or possession.

I say all this but I am aware that some pets just don't get a long. It's the same with people - two great people can hate each other just because...

Good luck and yes, pets can be tough. There are days (you have more than others now) that they remind us they're not just here for us to snuggle with... They have real aches and needs ....just like a human being.

[Wiseman2]

13 minutes ago, Alex39 said:

.Now he feels frustrated that she's taking that from him. He doesn't want to share me. I think he wants me as he's trying to run her off. 

You seem to create tension for yourself and these cats. 

[MissCanuck]

2 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

You seem to create tension for yourself and these cats. 

That's exactly what I am seeing too. 

You look for - and create - crisis in nearly all aspects of your life, Alex. You are projecting your own problems in a major way onto these cats. 

[Seraphim]

I would caution against disciplining cats, they do not respond to it and it ruins your relationship with them. 

[Batya33]

You sound like you're making choices a single parent would make about work vs. play time etc because I started thinking -hire a "sitter" to come play with Damon during the day. Obviously most people cannot afford that/it's not practical.  I personally would rehome Damon to a home -optimally -where there are people around regularly to play with him/a family maybe?

Or a family with a nanny who also takes care of the pets, etc. 

I'm totally not sure if you have to go to the extremes you are going to turning your life upside down because of a situation where two cats do not get along -and it doesn't sound like on your income you can afford to hire someone to play with Damon etc - maybe you're not seeing the forest for the trees (my cat had issues but not like these-more like litter box issues as he got older) - but if you truly do need to go to these herculean efforts (meaning I'm not a cat training person/expert by any means!) then to me anyway Damon should be rehomed.  Good luck and I'm sorry you're feeling so anxious.  

[Alex39]

8 hours ago, LootieTootie said:

I'm pretty sure you can look for another therapist...

One of the reasons why you're so scared of Damon is because you aren't willing to put in the work to discipline him.  

I am pretty good at being a cat wrangler because I've had to put some cats in their place but I get it, it's not the easiest and ideal for someone who doesn't like to get hurt. So may I suggest you look in to a vibrating cat collars for deterrent of bad habits? For both cats. Hopefully if your cats are super sensitive to the vibration when you press it, it will stop them when you noticed they're doing something they're not supposed to.

Animals are smart and once you show them something, they pick up real fast.

 

 

 

Scolding him is not recommended by my behaviorist or my vet. He is acting out of pure natural cat behavior. Scolding him will make him confused and upset. This is not recommended by experts. 

[Seraphim]

Yes, punishing cats is useless . They do things for their own happiness not people’s. They love their people but they are not there to “ please” people like dogs are. 

[Jaunty]

On 3/20/2023 at 8:18 AM, boltnrun said:

Animals pick up on our moods.

Not a pile on here, but I can't help but consider that you've also been the victim of  violent attacks by your family's dog.  

Please please get SERIOUS with therapy Alex.  Some changes of perspective could really help turn things around for you.  You kind of seem trapped in a vortex of negativity.   Some good help getting you out of there and support with how to stay out would be invaluable.  Your animals would calm down as well.

[LootieTootie]

3 hours ago, Seraphim said:

Yes, punishing cats is useless . They do things for their own happiness not people’s. They love their people but they are not there to “ please” people like dogs are. 

Let me rephrase... I don't mean to punish them or scold them. So discipline is the wrong word. What I mean is to isolate them when they are acting out. They need a space to cool off. This is why I think she needs to put him in a separate room when he is attacking her or the other cat.

 

[Jaunty]

I feel pretty strongly that this situation has escalated to the point where the two cats cannot live together.   Possibly the cat "Damon" needs an entirely new environment, since he as violently and repeatedly attacked OP outside of the context of fighting with the female cat.   This is not a good set up.

[LootieTootie]

Alex,

I know you said you live in a condo. How high up is your condo? Just wondering if you thought about letting Damon be part house cat and outdoor cat. 

Wondering how amenable you are to that alternative since your male cat seems bored or/and picking up your energy to the point he's unhappy.

[Alex39]

49 minutes ago, LootieTootie said:

Alex,

I know you said you live in a condo. How high up is your condo? Just wondering if you thought about letting Damon be part house cat and outdoor cat. 

Wondering how amenable you are to that alternative since your male cat seems bored or/and picking up your energy to the point he's unhappy.

We are on a main floor, have an upstairs too. More a townhouse than a condo. He has tons of windows and he and Lola sit together looking out the windows. I don't feel comfortable putting them as outside cats. We have vultures and coyotes. 

[Seraphim]

1 hour ago, LootieTootie said:

Let me rephrase... I don't mean to punish them or scold them. So discipline is the wrong word. What I mean is to isolate them when they are acting out. They need a space to cool off. This is why I think she needs to put him in a separate room when he is attacking her or the other cat.

 

I think you were talking about shock collars and such ,totally useless on a cat. They will hate you almost immediately. Cats have a tenuous relationship with people as it is that requires full trust. The minute you do anything to destroy that trust it’s often never regained with a cat . Cats do not correlate actions and punishment, especially not actions that are just being a cat.

[boltnrun]

One time I got VERY upset with my cat when she tracked poop all over my apartment including on my fabric couch. I picked her up forcefully (didn't hurt her) and shouted at her while putting her into the bathtub to clean her up. Then I left her locked in the bathroom while I cleaned up the poop. When I let her out she scurried away from me and hid under the bed. I felt terrible. My sweet little kitty who loved me now feared me. And it took a long while for her to trust me again. She continued to hide whenever I raised my voice after that, even though it wasn't directed at her. 

I just don't think using fear is an effective way to get cats to behave the way we think they should. They are animals and have to be treated as such, even the cute cuddly ones. 

[LootieTootie]

26 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

I think you were talking about shock collars and such ,totally useless on a cat. They will hate you almost immediately. Cats have a tenuous relationship with people as it is that requires full trust. The minute you do anything to destroy that trust it’s often never regained with a cat . Cats do not correlate actions and punishment, especially not actions that are just being a cat.

Vibration collar is not the same as a shock collar. This is just an option for Alex to try if she is physically unable to stop her cat from going postal. They need to be isolated. If you allow them to do this, well - of course you're always going to be on high alert.

I have had cats before and I am pretty certain they would have not been able to live together if I hadn't stepped in every time the bossy one turned nasty. Have you ever seen cats have a full fledge fight? It can be distressing especially if you see open wounds or pocket of hair every where. 

I'm sorry Alex. You may have to rehome one of your cats. 

[Seraphim]

3 minutes ago, LootieTootie said:

Vibration collar is not the same as a shock collar. This is just an option for Alex to try if she is physically unable to stop her cat from going postal. They need to be isolated. If you allow them to do this, well - of course you're always going to be on high alert.

I have had cats before and I am pretty certain they would have not been able to live together if I hadn't stepped in every time the bossy one turned nasty. Have you ever seen cats have a full fledge fight? It can be distressing especially if you see open wounds or pocket of hair every where. 

I'm sorry Alex. You may have to rehome one of your cats. 

Of course I have. I have had cats since the 70’s and owned more than 15 cats as an adult. But I have successfully had 4 male cats live together and a male and female cat. Sometimes people assume vigorous playing is “ fighting “ and it isn’t . She could be witnessing fighting or dominance. Either way vibrating , shocking and otherwise “ paying consequences “ doesn’t work with cats. You have to work within cat behavior.

[LootieTootie]

2 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

Of course I have. I have had cats since the 70’s and owned more than 15 cats as an adult. But I have successfully had 4 male cats live together and a male and female cat. Sometimes people assume vigorous playing is “ fighting “ and it isn’t . She could be witnessing fighting or dominance. Either way vibrating , shocking and otherwise “ paying consequences “ doesn’t work with cats. You have to work within cat behavior.

Vigorous playing is what I thought too until skin was broken to the point of blood splattering on the furniture. It takes one male cat to read a message wrong for an all out war when I had cats. So you have to gauge it and nip it when it happens. But all cats are different too and you have to know what works and what doesn't.

I never had to use collar - but I'm trying to help Alex but this might just be something where she has to rehome in the end. I hate to see healthy cats be heavily medicated.

But yes, I've been in the middle of nasty siblings fight among cats and dogs haha. And when I say nasty, I mean it. Broken skin, patches of air, lots of vocalization, ugh.... But I wear my badges proudly and all my cats and dogs have always love me... follow me... creep on me... stalk me... yea... lucky me.

 

[Batya33]

45 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

One time I got VERY upset with my cat when she tracked poop all over my apartment including on my fabric couch. I picked her up forcefully (didn't hurt her) and shouted at her while putting her into the bathtub to clean her up. Then I left her locked in the bathroom while I cleaned up the poop. When I let her out she scurried away from me and hid under the bed. I felt terrible. My sweet little kitty who loved me now feared me. And it took a long while for her to trust me again. She continued to hide whenever I raised my voice after that, even though it wasn't directed at her. 

I just don't think using fear is an effective way to get cats to behave the way we think they should. They are animals and have to be treated as such, even the cute cuddly ones. 

I agree.  I remember we locked our cat in the bathroom -maybe because someone was coming over to fix something and he was afraid of cats??? So not out of anger.  We thought kitty was fine -it wasn't for a long time at all -no need for food/water -but -he very very quietly unraveled the entire roll of toilet paper, made it into a comfy nest for himself and when we opened the door to let him out he looked at us with that Cat Look of - uh huh right - you thought you could do this......

Another time my grandfather came over and carelessly tossed his coat on the couch instead of hanging it up.  He disliked cats and our cat but was 100% appropriate with him other than jokingly calling him names etc.  Well our cat vomited all over the coat and when he was mad we said "oh well you should have hung it up...."  I think they know when they're not liked....

[catfeeder]

3 hours ago, LootieTootie said:

Vibration collar is not the same as a shock collar. This is just an option for Alex to try if she is physically unable to stop her cat from going postal.

I would agree that a non-painful vibration can be a distraction against a behavior in progress, and I doubt that the cat would connect it as coming from you.

However, if a cat is not accustomed to wearing a collar (being an indoor cat) then it's not a good idea to introduce a new collar to a cat--they won't forgive you for attaching it.

Alex, if your cats already wear collars, you could try this, BUT instead of investing the money, I'd post a request to a neighborhood bulletin board to learn if someone in your area has one you could borrow to test. If so, I would clean it carefully and oil it with catnip oil, otherwise the scent of any cat prior is likely to upset your cat and defeat the purpose.

[catfeeder]

20 hours ago, boltnrun said:

Unfortunately therapists and support professionals are human too and that means they too can drop the ball. My psychologist told me she would email me to schedule our next appointment. That was in November. I haven't heard from her since.

Yep, we each must always assume the role of our own best advocate and be proactive about our own care. If a therapist takes a leave, a responsible one will care enough about her/his clients to offer alternatives for coverage. But to just bail without doing that, to me, means--you pay me to listen to you when I'm available, but that's the extent of our relationship.

That's not 'care'.

Quote

If your anxiety is overwhelming to this point it's important to get care asap. As you know, we can't just talk ourselves out of being anxious although it would be nice if we could. 

I second this. Anxiety isn't a 'thing' to people who haven't suffered it beyond occasional butterflies that they can connect with something specific. However, it's an actual chemical/physical reaction to a stressor for those of us unfortunate enough to learn what anxiety actually is.

You are not somehow deficient when you can't talk yourself out of it. Your body reacts to a message that can even bypass your awareness. Once you go into that state, you have a chemical release.

So it's not even something you can always identify with one cause. There's something called 'generalized' anxiety that may or may not have roots in a specific trigger, but if you think of it like allergies where one thing can set off the chemical 'histamine' in your system, from there it doesn't matter what else you can point to as a culprit. At least until you can quell the current reaction.

Same with anxiety. If yours is targeted, you have an advantage, but even a specific trigger can eventually expand to other areas of life.

This isn't something a responsible therapist would just leave you flapping-in-the-breeze to deal with on your own. Consider finding a therapist who partners with an MD or Psychiatrist for consultation on your case. Most will support behavioral work if you don't want meds, but wouldn't it be good to know all options available to you?

[Alex39]

4 hours ago, Seraphim said:

Of course I have. I have had cats since the 70’s and owned more than 15 cats as an adult. But I have successfully had 4 male cats live together and a male and female cat. Sometimes people assume vigorous playing is “ fighting “ and it isn’t . She could be witnessing fighting or dominance. Either way vibrating , shocking and otherwise “ paying consequences “ doesn’t work with cats. You have to work within cat behavior.

I will never ever scold or punish. He is definitely annoyed with her at times. Not all the time. He bullies her and is territorial. I think he's even territorial over me. 

[LootieTootie]

15 hours ago, Alex39 said:

I will never ever scold or punish. 

And running to your room every night and locking your male cat out isn't punishment itself to the poor male cat?

Do you at least say "No" "Stop" in a stern voice at all when he's being a terrorizer? 

I trained my cats 3 basic commands. No, Sit and Treat. I used a clicker in the beginning but cats got used to the word commands and now don't need it.  Figure out what your male cat is crazy about. My cats go crazy over this salmon yam treat and I swear when I grab the bag - they forget what they were even fighting about. 

Also they don't resent me when I tell them to knock it off when they're pawing me (almost clawing) for attention. But not all cats respond the same way and I would encourage a cat owner to try other methods and not just give up ....unless they just don't have the mental or/and emotional capacity to handle the pet. 

Any way, I am hoping the best for both cats and I hope you try other methods and not just another medication.