Upcoming days and weeks

[KennyK]

That is all so very sad. You will have to ask the mother again what they put on the death certificate ... unless you don't want to know. As regards suicide .... did she have suicidal tendencies? Was she having a bipolar episode? As you say, would she chose to leave the children so suddenly?

 

How are her parents coping? How are you coping?

 

She was a risk taker, but usually not by herself. She would often say things like just kill me or something about her killing herself, immediately followed by I wouldn't do that. The thing that makes me wonder though, is that day or the day before she called saying she was sorry for everything she's done to me. I questioned it more and she said she was talking about the past.

 

She was having a bipolar episode that night, she said she couldn't stop thinking, and when I got up to leave, she immediately went straight to the ladder to the attic without hesitation. Like she planned to go there.

 

But again, she wouldn't do anything without saying something to her kids, maybe they know something? I can't really ask though. But I can't picture her leaving them, they were her #1 thing in life, I was close behind. Also, I think she would have acted different... Maybe hinted to me more. What I also question is how nobody looked for her for 2 hours after I left? The dad said he looked at 11, I left between 9 and 930. Surely one of the kids needed her for something.

 

My counselor recommended I take a trip to somewhere that was special to us. I'm there now, leaving a rosé at all our different beach spots. It's bittersweet though and I don't know if it helps. I can look at pictures of my phone of her standing in a particular place, but when I look with my own eyes there's nothing.

[Tanzi]

Maybe going to that special place is something that will help you more later. So have you been to the counselor again? How did you find it?

 

I would have thought that if she was planning something like that you would have picked up that something wasn't right sooner. I mean it would have had to have been pretty spur of the moment. Does it happen like that?

[KennyK]

Maybe going to that special place is something that will help you more later. So have you been to the counselor again? How did you find it?

 

I would have thought that if she was planning something like that you would have picked up that something wasn't right sooner. I mean it would have had to have been pretty spur of the moment. Does it happen like that?

 

The counselor I saw was through my insurance's employee assistance program. She was picked because she has after work and weekend appointments.

 

I think I would have picked up on it sooner if it was planned too. But 3 things make me wonder. Earlier in the week she said her parents wanted to get rid of her and I should take insurance out on her. Then she called early in the morning saying she's sorry for everything she's done to me, crying. And then when she left the room that night she went straight for the attic without hesitation.

 

Again though, she may have come back down. That would explain why nobody asked where she was from 930 to 11. She never had a minute to herself much less over an hour without anyone needing her. Her mother did say they had an argument about putting out the Easter stuff, but they weren't arguing when I was there, so maybe after.... But her mom had gone to bed already.

 

The trip was a dumb stupid idea. It all felt sad and hollow to me and I don't think I ever want to go back. I was able to lay a rose in every spot that was a special memory except one, and I took a little video of each one... But overall I feel more frustrated, sadder. I don't think I want to ever go back.

[Tanzi]

Was the Easter stuff already out when you left? Maybe her mum hadn't actually gone to.bed. That would mean she would have come back down from the attic. Do you think her parents did want her out? And the kids? I wouldnt have thought so. I guess they may not stop her thinking that though. And what did she mean by take insurance out on her??

 

No the trip was probably too soon and its purpose futile. It's the questions that you probably feel you need help with. Would it help to know what was on the death certificate?

[KennyK]

Was the Easter stuff already out when you left? Maybe her mum hadn't actually gone to.bed. That would mean she would have come back down from the attic. Do you think her parents did want her out? And the kids? I wouldnt have thought so. I guess they may not stop her thinking that though. And what did she mean by take insurance out on her??

 

No the trip was probably too soon and its purpose futile. It's the questions that you probably feel you need help with. Would it help to know what was on the death certificate?

 

The Easter stuff was not out yet, all 4 kids were still up. It's possible her father argued and her mum jumped in later on, but I think that would be something you'd include to the police.

 

Her parents did want her out to an extent, not like this though. Many times my girlfriend would ask for help in getting back on her feet and they would tell her "the door is right there, but the kids are staying". They also wouldn't help watch the kids so that she could get a job. The reasoning for this goes well beyond my girlfriend. Her father had an affair when my girlfriend left the house, and they never really dealt with it. The parents would often argue and they could use my girlfriend, and more specifically the kids, as a way to direct the focus onto being "needed" elsewhere.

 

When she said I should take out life insurance in her, I just said stop it. When she would get upset she would often say suicidal type things, but not really mean them as far as I know.

 

It would help some to see the death certificate. I'm not sure i am able to though? What I would really like to see is the police report, and official theory of what happened based on the facts. I'm not sure i have access to that either, although I was interviewed as a witness so maybe I have a right to know what is in the report? Either way, the families story is that she was reading on the roof. Even though its over a 45 degree angle steep, there's no light, and it was cold and raining that night. She didn't have a jacket on when I was there either. Just a light cotton dress.

 

I have a feeling she did come back down, and there was an argument over putting out Easter stuff. And that she then returned to the attic to "get away", possibly then being shut in. Rather than wait or banging on the floor or whatnot, she would be stubborn enough to throw books she found up there out the window, then thinking about finding a way down from the roof, but slipping.

[KennyK]

In fact, I am starting to believe her parents lied to the police, or at least "left" things out. The argument over putting Easter stuff out couldn't have happened before I was there. I can over at 830 and all the kids were still up when I left 30 mins to an hour later. I couldn't have been the last to see her... And if her father was truthful about finding the poster's sentences cut out, that would mean she did come back down.

 

Her father claimed when he looked "earlier", he didn't see my car bc I had left and assumed she went with me for whatever reason. Silly statement that doesn't make much sense, but I guess it could pass. She may have ignored her father looking for her, but not the kids. And that would still leave the question of when the argument took place.

 

 

Is this just another past of grief or is this something I should tell the detective?

[KennyK]

I'm also starting to feel very angry. Mostly at her family. I've been cut out, left in the dark, with little hope of ever getting a clearer picture of what happened. The sister particularly angers me. I never thought I'd say this, but she actually removed herself as my "friend" on Facebook. So I guess there is mutual dislike. I think back to my meeting with her when she told me they were keeping my girlfriends favorite jacket to give to the oldest boy. It seemed fine. But now I feel like its not theirs to give away. I would have no problem giving it to my girlfriends son in a few years, when it would fit him. But the family doesn't know the story, they don't know why it was her favorite. They don't know why it has MY last name on it. I'm fairly certain I have a claim to it, the purchase is still in my account files from 2011.

[Tanzi]

Is this just another past of grief or is this something I should tell the detective?

 

Do you think it would change anything or help if you did tell the police. There are two likely scenarios here. Either she took her own life or it was a tragic accident. Would telling the police change the outcome of their investigation? If you think it would make you feel better to get things off your chest then perhaps you should but, otherwise, I'm not sure it would change much.

 

I'm also starting to feel very angry. Mostly at her family. I've been cut out, left in the dark, with little hope of ever getting a clearer picture of what happened. The sister particularly angers me. I never thought I'd say this, but she actually removed herself as my "friend" on Facebook. So I guess there is mutual dislike. I think back to my meeting with her when she told me they were keeping my girlfriends favorite jacket to give to the oldest boy. It seemed fine. But now I feel like its not theirs to give away. I would have no problem giving it to my girlfriends son in a few years, when it would fit him. But the family doesn't know the story, they don't know why it was her favorite. They don't know why it has MY last name on it. I'm fairly certain I have a claim to it, the purchase is still in my account files from 2011.

 

I can see why you feel angry but I don't think they would be doing all this to get at you. Their main priority at the moment is the grief and loss they are suffering. I'm sure they are just trying to cope and they are making poignant gestures without thinking about the side effects they may have on you. I really wouldn't worry about the sister and her involvement. She isn't worth the bother and don't give her the satisfaction of even knowing that her actions upset you. I'm sure the mother and father don't mean anything by it. They probably see the jacket as hers and thats it, their grief probably stops them from seeing any further into things. Do you really need to claim it, if it is hers? They are probably doing what they think she would have chosen to do with it. By doing that you could be causing a wedge between you and her parents and if her son gets wind of it, he might well assume you didn't want him to have it and that could have negative consequences too. Even if you tried to tell him you wanted to claim it as yours so that you could give it to him, that probably wouldn't make much sense to him - or to anyone else for that matter. Maybe, in time, it would be better just to talk to the son about the jacket. You can tell him how much it meant to his mum and the reasons why and why you know she would like him to have it. You can also say as much to her parents and to her sister by agreeing that the jacket should go to him instead of causing any animosity over it.

 

I know that you are feeling pushed out, perhaps you could talk to her parents and say that you really would like to be kept in the loop over matters. I guess because they felt as though they were looking after her in life, they feel that it is their duty in death too. Had you been living alone together and with the children that duty would have fallen more onto you.

[KennyK]

I believe the information I have very well could change the outcome of the investigation. I can't say for sure, but the tidbits I've picked up from her parents and neighbors is that it was ruled a suicide. With the timeline they have, that would be the logical conclusion.

 

However if they see a larger gap between the time I left and the time she went onto the roof, they would see it wasn't an emotional response to me, nor was it anything planned.

 

My counselor says to talk to the detective but my father and Kendelle's neighbor/pastor say to leave it be, that a reopened investigation could hurt them. But in my mind I would be correcting wrong information (I have the incorrect time I left) and possibly removing the idea that it was suicide.

 

And you're probably right about the jacket. I'm just tired of being shoved around emotionally and playing nice. It was not her place to tell me they were keeping the jacket.

 

Anyway, any suggestions on whether or not to contact the detective and let him decide what to do with the information would be helpful.

[KennyK]

Her father also called me last night. I mentioned my trip, and how I realized the timeline given was completely off. He seemed interested in meeting up to try to get a clearer picture.

 

But at the same time, I can't just bring out my theory that an argument drove her up there the 2nd time, so talking to the detective is still on the board.

[Tanzi]

I am in two minds as to whether or not you should say something. I do agree to an extent with your father and the pastor but I can also understand why you feel the need to say something if you think everyone may believe it was an emotional response to you. You want to have peace of mind that they know that not to be the case.

 

That said, I am sure they don't think that anyway. She was bipolar and a drinker so they know that she couldn't always handle her emotions or even her actions. They argued with her too and she didn't get along with her own sister so I am sure that, if the do believe it was suicide, it was because she couldn't cope with her emotions brought on by her bipolar.

 

It would possibly help if you knew what the death certificate said. It may have been ruled as an accident. Maybe when you meet with her father you can discuss things a little further. There are a lot of questions about that night and I am sure they would like to find these answers just like you. You will probably never know for sure what lead her to go up onto the roof but you may be able to piece together some of her last moments, as it seems her dad would like to do. If it was ruled as an accident would you not feel the need to go to the police?

 

How are you anyway? I know you have a lot of questions going around in your head but how you coping? How are things with the counselor?

[KennyK]

If it wasn't ruled an accident I would not feel the need to go to the police. If the parents were actually the last to see her, or she was shut in there in purpose, that's something they would have to live with. There's no way to prove it anyway.

 

I am so sure it wasn't suicide. Everyone seems to be picturing an overly emotional out of control girl that night, which isn't true. Her mind was racing, but she was calm, emotions in check. If she was planning suicide, she would have cried A LOT when I left, or even when the youngest came up and gave her a hug. That's just who she was, not a cold calculated person. Not to mention the cut posters as evidence she did come down.

 

The hard part will be explaining to her father that their relationship was so rocky that when the attic door closed, she would have automatically assumed it was on purpose.

 

I still don't think I'm doing very well. More questions seem to pop up. Some people think its a mechanism to stop grieving and try to distract myself. The counselor is nice, I don't think she knows what to say most of the time. I do wish the sessions were more than 60 minutes once a week. I just have more going on than that.

 

Today the spiritual battle inside me has been on hold, but I did come up with this in response to those who say we don't know what the afterlife holds, so we should just live...

 

When is not knowing ever an excuse to make an important life decision? I can say honestly that I don't know what tomorrow may bring, should i go rob a bank and spend it all tonight because i dont know what the future holds? Or should I think and weigh the consequences of what my actions today will have on the future not just tomorrow, but in the long run?

 

People live their whole lives preparing for what comes next for a God they've never seen. Why is it that you're suppose to live for the moment and not worry about what's next when it comes to a loving person that you actually knew?

 

People don't go around not worrying about religion because there's no way to know. They stick with what they believe and follow their hearts. Why should be different for the lost love of your life?

 

And again, thank you more than you can imagine blue. You've been as big of a help as anyone I know through all this.

[Tanzi]

I think the first thing you should do is to find out whether or not it has been ruled as an accident or suicide. I 100% believe that you have a right to know. If the Easter paraphernalia had been put out too, that would also suggest she came down after you left - unless the parents did that by themselves.

 

I wouldn't say anything to the father that she would have assumed that the door had been locked on purpose. If it hadn't been on purpose (maybe it slammed shut and she assumed it was locked) then I don't think it would be necessary to say anything. It would just make them feel worse. If it had been locked on purpose, then they are aware of that and they will have to live with that. You don't think they would have shut her in on purpose do you?

 

Finding distractions in order to stop grieving is something that will only happen intermittently ... it offers "light relief" from your constant anguish ... but you need to be allowed to grieve. You need the time to work through all the emotions and thoughts racing through your head. Sometimes we need to be alone with our thoughts so that we can work through things until we find peace of mind. Do what feels right for you. Don't force yourself to do things you aren't ready to do because sometimes this can make us feel worse.

 

I am a full believer that we have to live the life that we have been blessed with ... but that doesn't mean to say that we aren't allowed "time out" when we are grieving or when we need to come to terms with something. But .... I am not a spiritual person and for that reason you and I probably have different opinions on certain things. I would by no means expect you to feel any differently than you do. You have to believe in what feels true to you and don't let people tell you otherwise. I respect that you are a spiritual person and that these thoughts are important to you. However, your mind seems to be in conflict as to how you should lead your life. I truly believe in time you will start to want to live more of a life again ... but of course you are grieving and most probably still in shock so that is the last thing on your mind. We are resilient creatures and I think that you will learn to cope with this and learn to enjoy life again one day. I can imagine that feels wrong at the moment. That is why I think concerning yourself with the future is something you should put off if you can. Don't worry too much about tomorrow, worry about today. You have a lot of grief to cope with.

 

I know I can't pretend to know what you are going through but it's nice to know that I am of some help, even if it is only a little bit.

[KennyK]

Blue,

 

The only reason I would say she would assume the door was shut on purpose is because they can't grasp why she would be on the roof. They assume it was to read, which makes no sense. The 3 plausible options are that she was looking for a way down, she thought she would try to call this missing bird (but again it was dark and rainy) or that she had planned to fall on her back. The Easter paraphanailia is also a good thought, I will write that down.

 

As for purposely being locked... I can see a scenario where that happened. Her father has locked her out of the house when he thought she was spending too much time with me outside. And she claimed he called her "evil" that morning, so tensions were high. I am not leaning towards this theory, but there is a chance. I still can't imagine how a mother of 4 goes unlooked for from 930 to 7am unless you have an idea of where she is..., and the excuse of him thinking she was with me doesn't hold up. Not on the night before Easter.

 

Honestly, I am not a religious or spiritual person either. That's what makes it difficult. I pull a number of ideas from different places. Some because I want to believe that, some because they sound nice, but they usually meet the buzz saw of "what makes sense". So I have difficulty conveying any beliefs I do have. But given the choice of thinking there's no chance of ever being with her, and the chance that I might... It seems like an easy choice to me, even if both are equally possible. Actually, if I could know for certain that she's just gone and that's it, it would hurt but I'd have no choice but to live on. But if there's even a 0.0001% chance that there is something more, I need to take it. I wish I knew more about what she believed. That could help too, but all I know if she believed we all had energy, and energy can't be created or destroyed. What does that mean in terms of death? I have no idea.

 

I can still live a life without pursuing romantic interests.

[KennyK]

If you don't mind me asking, since you are not spiritual, what is your belief of what lies ahead?

[DN]

Moderator Note: please do not turn this thread into a religious debate.

[KennyK]

I agree blue, the intention wasn't to debate any religion. I look at it as finding a philosophy that can work for me.

 

However I need this forum wayyy too much right now to get shut down for any TOS violations

 

It's really the only record I have of how I've felt since that horrible first day. I really don't have many outlets.

 

To get back on point, it's possible she was shut in the attic after an argument. I lean towards it being inadvertent though. Either way, I'll never find that out.

 

I need to reconcile that she lived up to her word of never wanting a life without me. I don't know how to say you did it, but I won't because its too long. No matter what, I'd always choose to go back and take a chance on life with her. I don't know how I'm supposed to move on feeling this way, and I don't want it to change.

[DN]

This forum has, for good reason, rules against threads that debate religion and politics. Open-ended questions like that lead to debate and argument and that is why we request that you not do that.

[Tanzi]

Maybe she felt the energy all around her, in everything she did or everything she saw. To that extent she would want to have believed that her energy was around you now ... but that is just my perception of what she meant, I could be wrong. Maybe it is the memories and thoughts you have of someone.

 

You are under no pressure to pursue romantic interests kenny. If it happens it is because you have found a kindrid spirit and a peace of mind that she really would want you to find happiness again.

[KennyK]

Yes she would want me to find happiness, but at the same time she would want me to be with HER again if its possible.

 

I'm having trouble putting the two together. I don't really want a life of second choices.

[KennyK]

I also spoke to the pastor again asking her to tell me I wasn't crazy for thinking I should have been included in the funeral. She wouldn't say it

 

She said the parents weren't functioning well and the sister and the ex "and many others" were making decisions for them during that time. So much for the "I only invited who I was told to" excuse.

 

It's frustrating. But this is something I can't change. I don't even think an apology would help. I just hope she at least feels bad, but I doubt it.

[Tanzi]

Yes she would want me to find happiness, but at the same time she would want me to be with HER again if its possible.

 

I'm having trouble putting the two together. I don't really want a life of second choices.

 

You don't need to put the two together. Onethught is for now and one is maybe for later.

 

 

I also spoke to the pastor again asking her to tell me I wasn't crazy for thinking I should have been included in the funeral. She wouldn't say it

 

She said the parents weren't functioning well and the sister and the ex "and many others" were making decisions for them during that time. So much for the "I only invited who I was told to" excuse.

 

It's frustrating. But this is something I can't change. I don't even think an apology would help. I just hope she at least feels bad, but I doubt it.

 

You should have been included and you are not wrong to find that frustrating. I do agree that the parents weren't functioning properly though and it wasn't somethning that was done on purpose.

[KennyK]

I think it was done on purpose, by the sister at least. They were trying to appease the ex.

 

And blue, I know it seems like those are 2 thoughts for 2 different times, but I am choosing to live with the hope that there is something I can do. Finding a way to reconcile that with moving on is the goal. But nothing at the cost of potentially being with her again.

[KennyK]

I wish I was able to move in some direction, I just feel paralyzed with it all. I don't ever want my feelings and emotions about her to fade. Ever.

[Tanzi]

I think it was done on purpose, by the sister at least. They were trying to appease the ex.

 

And blue, I know it seems like those are 2 thoughts for 2 different times, but I am choosing to live with the hope that there is something I can do. Finding a way to reconcile that with moving on is the goal. But nothing at the cost of potentially being with her again.

 

Well, then her sister will have to live with that. That was totally unnecessary, it's not like they are still kids. Her sister didn't even live with them did she? Or have I got that wrong?

 

I wish I was able to move in some direction, I just feel paralyzed with it all. I don't ever want my feelings and emotions about her to fade. Ever.

 

I wouldn't expect it to be any other way to be honest. It is still very early days.