The Black Rainbow

[ProtestTheHero]

No, it doesn't resonate because I do things in spite of how I feel all the time. In spite of everything I say here I wake up every morning and try to give everyone who asks all of my attention and effort, whether it be for an employer or a professor. Do I feel hopeless, resigned, bleak, etc.? Yeah. Does that stop the robot from operating on autopilot as it's been programmed since birth to do? No. I am hardworking by default, it doesn't matter how beaten down I feel. I zealously pursue success in spite of it all.

 

I don't feel like a mistake. Chance and change apply to us all. You should ask me if I'm willing to wait patiently for it because that would probably be the thing that illustrates my difference.

 

My question is really simple. I want to know why things haven't worked out for me when I've done everything right. That's what I want to know. I was the kid that parents dream of in terms of discipline, academic success, and respect. I am a great friend. I am a good boyfriend. I am a good listener. I am an intelligent person. I am naturally curious about other people. I'll put your needs above my own. I won't betray your confidence. I'll never ask for something I wouldn't give someone else. If you go out on a limb for me and recommend me to someone in a professional setting then I'll work above and beyond what's expected to protect your reputation.

 

I want to know why no one cares that I'm these things. That's what I want to know. Screw everything else.

[tiredofvampires]

Does that stop the robot from operating on autopilot as it's been programmed since birth to do? No. I am hardworking by default, it doesn't matter how beaten down I feel. I zealously pursue success in spite of it all.

 

When I talk about doing things that can create change, I'm not talking about doing things as an automaton, as you've been programmed to, in a state of numbed resignation. That's the exact opposite of the kind of proactive "doing" I'm talking about.

 

This is the kind of conversation I'm referencing when I ask you if what I said (and Brene said) resonates:

 

Me: Things have to start with internal shifts, with the way you see yourself [generic summary of many things said].

 

PTH: I can't hide from who I am, guild the lily, "febreeze a POS" (there's an old one exhumed from the grave -- see how long this tape has been playing, relatively unchanged?) Things are not going to get better from the inside. It's going to have to be from the outside-in, not from the inside-out, if anything gets better.

 

Me: Well, okay, I do agree that you need some external changes. You're in an isolated place with no good circles in which to make friends and find people who are your "tribe" (to borrow a Brene term). You NEED TO LEAVE WEST VIRGINIA, relocate. This is NOT conducive to your thriving. You need to make some very practical moves now to shift the playing field.

 

PTH: I can leave. But I'll always take me. So it's no use. I'm the problem, the problem is inside me. So there's no point in leaving.

 

See what happened there?

 

Is that not shame impeding and completely PARALYZING ANYTHING REALLY RESEMBLING CHANGE, either inner or outer?

 

I am not defining change as waking up each morning going through the same motions in the same place with the same lackluster environment in your face each day, on a hamsterwheel. I don't define "hard work" as change*, and ditto for "zealous pursuit of success". Not even nearly synonymous.

 

And I sure as hell hope you're not trying to pass all that off as change.

 

Change means CHANGE: doing something different from what you're doing, because what you're doing is no longer serving you.

 

*(though I do think change is hard work)

[tiredofvampires]

My question is really simple...I want to know why no one cares that I'm these things. That's what I want to know. Screw everything else.

 

I think that's a very fair question.

 

And although the answer is a little elusive at the moment, I'd like to ask a simple question myself. Sorry to answer a question with a question. But this one might have more of a clear answer for now. So for right now, just answer this, and screw everything else.

 

Let's say you meet a dude somewhere. Work, let's say.

 

And as you get to interact and hang out with him more, you find out these are some of his qualities:

 

Honest

Kind

Empathetic

Was a model of discipline, academic hard work throughout his life

Makes a great friend

Is good to the women who get with him

Is a good listener

Intelligent

Makes interesting conversation

Naturally curious about other people

Puts your needs above his own

Doesn't betray your confidences

Never asks for something he wouldn't give someone else

Works loyally above and beyond what you'd expect to protect your reputation, just because you did him a good turn as a colleague

Cracks you up constantly, has a great sense of humor

Has varied and cool taste in music

Is open minded and has a "live and let live" attitude

Is humble, modest

Has a hard-working ethic

Has wealth but doesn't look down on people who don't have it

Isn't highly materialistic

Can be intellectual, but not stuck up about it

Is creative

Is a social chameleon

Charismatic in a group

Insightful one-on-one

Down-to-earth

Gives you your space

Isn't jealous or possessive of your time

Lets you air your dark stuff and doesn't run away

Doesn't put stupid superficial crap on pedestals

 

 

Is this guy someone you'd like to know? Can you see liking this dude? Wanting to cement a friendship?

 

Is he someone you'd value?

 

What do you think of his values? Do you share them?

 

*****

 

And I'm going to add a twist here, but promise you'll answer those question above first.

 

Let's say you meet a woman who is like that. And she crushes on you, and wants to date you.

 

So you start going out. And things keep progressing, as you find out more and more of these qualities.

 

Run through that list again, re-read it (replacing "he/his/him" with "she/her"; and "women" with "men" on the 6th item).

 

Is this a woman you could see falling in love with? (assuming physically, she falls within your range of types)

[ProtestTheHero]

On paper it seems ok, but I never can speculate as to what I'd want from that person before interacting with them. Those traits are appealing enough to me that I'd be willing to explore further, but I couldn't say that on that list alone I'd want to be their friend, boyfriend, or whatever. What I mean is that there are people that I will like and people that I probably won't want to be around who are all of those things because a personality is more than a resume of traits.

 

As far as values, I have a few deal-breakers but not many deal-makers. I'm generally not too concerned unless it's something extreme or incredibly marginal, like an overt racist, a militant xenophobic, proselytizers of various forms (don't drink that or you'll go to hell, don't eat that because it's not organic/factory farm produced, don't wear that because someone is paid .20 cents a day to make it, and so on), etc.

 

I find stuff like that pretty annoying, so I am more prepared to make the assumption that some of these "negative" qualities are irreconcilable for me than I am to say that a few good ones means we'll mesh. In real life I've found it to be pretty random.

 

I don't think a simulation that asks me or anyone else to project that far based on traits is super representative of real life, where many of our relationships derive organically and not from a pursuit of certain traits, and where often many friendships are built on a certain je nais se quoi that can be difficult for either person to explain.

[tiredofvampires]

I know that that was an honest and genuine answer to my question(s), and wasn't meant to conjure up the scents I've known driving through the rolling green farmlands and cow pastures of Vermont, but somehow it does anyway.

 

First, it's an incomplete answer. I asked you about if this was your guy friend, but I also asked if this were a woman you met, how you would feel about someone with those traits.

 

Here's the thing -- while I get what you're saying about meeting people organically and getting to know them as whole beings, not pre-fab lists in the abstract, nor do I think it's unreasonable or unrealistic to imagine that the person you would most be attracted to would implicitly come with certain traits.

 

I didn't ask you if that list would exclude for you someone without all those qualities (or, even any of those qualities, in the extreme). I didn't ask you if that list described necessary AND sufficient qualities (making room for that je ne sais quoi, or other qualities NOT listed). I didn't ask if that list was comprehensive for you, as an inclusive list, or whether someone might not have some other list that would describe them in addition to, or as a subset of this list, as each person is unique and our dynamic with them organically is unique and obviously more complex than what can be boiled down to a list.

 

I asked you if someone with those qualities would likely be attractive to you, and if you would overall feel these to describe someone you'd likely find a lot to mesh with. And I think that's a reasonable question, even with all the mumbo jumbo about je ne sais quoi being true. Now, if I'd taken one or two random qualities from that list, it would not have been enough to go on. But if I give you a list of many traits that cover a lot of territory in a well-rounded way, which this list does, I think it's fair to say, "this sounds like someone who could likely be someone I'd be attracted to, because these are QUALITIES that attract me, especially taken together." Plainly put, I think it would be dishonest to say that certain qualities aren't attractive to you in a person. Or that many such ones additively don't increase that quotient.

 

I believe this list is a decent portrayal of someone with a specific personality and orientation, even as a list. And whether or not you could find other lists viable hypothetically, with parts of this one included or not included, was not the question. And of course, there may be a quality not listed which could be a total hidden dealbreaker, and I allow for that. The point is, overall, is that an appealing list. Is it more appealing than, say, a list that is diametrically opposed to it.

 

The way I see this is, if you took a number of those qualities OUT, how would you feel about a person? To make this discussion real, you were interested in a girl who you said more than once was kind. That quality rose to the top of your discussion again and again. Why? Why did you keep mentioning that she was kind, if you do not value kindness, LOOK for kindness? If she was not kind -- would you have been interested in her? If she was not honest? Not empathetic, generally put herself before others, was interested in petty, materialistic stuff, and was crappy to her friends? Would she OR ANYONE ELSE I MIGHT RECOMMEND TO YOU IF I WAS SETTING YOU UP ON A BLIND DATE have half a chance, if I said, those are her qualities?

 

"PTH, I know this incredibly beautiful woman who I know you'd love to date, but I gotta warn you, she's an intellectual snob, isn't kind, kinda tends to lie, and is a boring conversationalist." This is someone you might consider taking out to dinner because there could be a "je ne sais quoi" click? Further going down the list, if she was not intelligent, not humble, would you have wanted to date this girl you were interested in? If she didn't make you laugh? If she was lazy (not hard-working), if she talked only about herself and wasn't a good listener, didn't give you your space, was jealous and possessive? What if she just made a "bad girlfriend" (generically describing the counterpart to your "I'm a good boyfriend")? Would any of these things missing -- even in the abstraction of a list -- possibly describe someone you'd want to be with or give half a chance to?

 

Over the years, I'm sure you've seen these threads in the Attraction/Dating forums about what qualities you look for in a partner, and of course, it's the idea of creating some kind of archetype. Which has its limits, because of what you said. But the reason I think it's not entirely silly to make a list like this is because you're describing the flip sides of "dealbreakers" -- the things I would call "must-have's" in a person. Must the person I'm close to (either lover or friend) be trustworthy? YES. Just take that trait alone, in isolation -- I could make a judgment based on that, it's such a must-have, I don't care who the person is and their mix of qualities. And a number of the qualities you yourself named ("doesn't betray confidences") fall into that territory. Maybe you disagree, but if I feel like if you can't trust your friend OR lover, what do you have? And I see "honesty" as a function of trustworthiness, so honesty would go on any list, categorically. Could I see any organic situation with any person in this world, however similar, dissimilar or complementary they are to me, getting close to me WITHOUT BEING TRUSTWORTHY/HONEST/NOT BETRAYING MY CONFIDENCES? No. So sight unseen, it's fair to call that a "must-have," aka, dealbreaker = dishonest.

 

How about empathetic, kind, and a good listener? Well, I'm trying to picture a scenario where there'd be a je ne sais quoi situation where I'd be close to someone and they are not able to be empathic, they're not a good listener, and they're mean/unkind. How close to them would I be, could I get? I can't imagine a situation where I could mesh with anyone like that beyond some interesting chatter. I think it's fair to say that sight unseen, someone who isn't kind is going to have a lot of other incompatibilities with me, and furthermore, as I'll point out, more "must-haves" missing, by default.

 

What about not being a good conversationalist or interesting? Or intelligent? I could have friends who fall below my "ideal" score on these, but the closer a friendship -- and being a romantic partner, especially -- the more these qualities become important for me to have a tight fit, a close mesh, and the more they'd have to have other qualities I value to compensate if these were lacking, which would still be quite limiting. Someone could be kind and not intelligent and conceivably my friend, and someone could be unkind and intelligent and be conceivably my friend...but neither of these would last long or go deep, neither could ever be a romantic partner, and in the case of the latter, I wouldn't even feel they were more than possibly an interesting acquaintance, because if you're not kind -- you're not a lot of other things either. You're not trustworthy, honest, empathetic, a good listener, and on and on, many other qualities that would make for a feeling of safety with someone. "Kind" covers a huge amount of ground, so it'd be trumping a lot, and poorly substituted by other qualities. (I know you and I may have different criteria for different relationships, btw, so focus on the concepts.)

 

I know that you've had various friendships where a number of these qualities are lacking. And so have I. But when I consider the must-have's for a solid relationship of any kind, the list would have to contain at least a number of those things for it to work, and I believe it's the same for you, even though you're kind of skirting that fact with your answer. Like I said -- if that girl you liked recently was unkind, would you even want to date her? And if you had a guy friend who was a boring conversationalist, how long would that last?

 

i think I've given enough of a list to flesh in a hypothetical person with enough qualities that some reasonable facsimile of a persona could be mentally fashioned out of this, and considered as meeting a number of criteria that you implicitly have for strong connections with people. It's kind of like a digital simulation that is really high resolution, where you can get a pretty rounded view of what a person would look like, versus one that's so low resolution, you can only make out gross pixels and can't gather anything from it. Well, my list is high res.

 

And ultimately, your claim that lists are not representative of anything in real life contradicts your own straightforward question on this matter. You said:

 

My question is really simple. I want to know why things haven't worked out for me when I've done everything right. That's what I want to know. I was the kid that parents dream of in terms of discipline, academic success, and respect. I am a great friend. I am a good boyfriend. I am a good listener. I am an intelligent person. I am naturally curious about other people. I'll put your needs above my own. I won't betray your confidence. I'll never ask for something I wouldn't give someone else. If you go out on a limb for me and recommend me to someone in a professional setting then I'll work above and beyond what's expected to protect your reputation.

 

I want to know why no one cares that I'm these things. That's what I want to know

 

So there's a list, and you're saying, "I'm someone with these qualities. Here are all the things I am, which the world has valued in others. These are the things that anyone would call 'good', in and of themselves, and the composite of which make them even better as a combo." So you did create an abstract list of qualities and ask the question, why do these qualities -- sterling qualities that I possess -- not matter to anyone? Why are people not appreciating that I have these qualities?

 

And in asking that, I feel very strongly that you have acknowledged their worth. That these are worthy qualities -- not just by others' standards, but your own. You are now going to try strenuously to deny or redefine these standards, but here it is in black and white. You can and did make a list and ask, why wouldn't anyone want someone with these great traits? It's a simple question! I posses these great traits, which I know others think are great, and I know I would find great in another person, I would respect. So why am I being overlooked?

 

And as I said, that's a fair question. It's an agonized question, but it's a fair one.

 

So you allow yourself this list, and then when I make one that's a lot higher resolution, you say, "Lists of traits are not representative of real life." Lol, okay, so you can make a list but I can't? Why are you asking if someone with your qualities/LIST is being passed by? Should I say, "Why are you writing such a list, when it's all about je ne sais quoi"? I drew up a list that's just more extensive than yours to describe all the things YOU VALUE in someone when they are demonstrated (knowing you for a long time, I am confident of it), that OTHERS VALUE in someone, and that therefore ----> YOU DO VALUE AND RECOGNIZE IN YOURSELF.

 

But you will at this point say anything to deny these values or this track of thinking, or how they apply to you, and start waxing a little more ethereal and intellectualized about "je ne sais quoi", and how it can transcend someone who is every lousy, crappy quality and still be your friend or girlfriend. Please, lol, please get real.

 

See, it's easy to sit here and say, "I don't really have any criteria", when the fact of the matter is that I could point to any number of posts you've made and things you've said where a given quality would imply many things about a person that would automatically get them written off, by extrapolation. So you're not as different from others in that respect as you're making it appear.

 

I could be wrong, but I get the sense that that list came out of thinking about your friend and his traits, and feeling that life has not been just to you, by comparison. You extracted your friend's traits in a list, took them out into the world of abstraction. You described not your dynamic with him, but his distilled traits: he's handsome, but not educated, was/is unimpressive scholastically, and of very modest financial means. And you were looking at that and thinking, how is it that someone who hasn't worked as hard as I have, done all the "right things", and is in every way not the paragon of lists of impressive traits, has achieved happiness and here I am, with hypothetically all these good things going for me [enter the list], and I'm not being smiled upon by the love, stability, and happiness he's enjoying? What's wrong with this picture? Look at his list, and look at mine; look at his assets and look at mine. How is it fair that I have an even higher res list to his fairly unimpressive one and yet I am lonely, undesired, unrecognized, unloved, and no one sees or cares about my "list"?

 

Am I wrong that this is where your mind was going?

 

So it was very, very much about you making lists as representative of real life, and how that's a referendum of people, especially YOURSELF; a list of his pluses and minuses, and comparing yourself against him and saying, the conclusion of this exercise is that for some mysterious reason, these qualities count for other people but not for me. Or, one needs luck and none of any of these qualities.

 

And either way, I seem to be the butt of the universe because I believe these are qualities that make a man attractive, to a co-worker, to a girlfriend, to a friend, to a parent, to ANYONE, and yet I am not being rewarded. Why? Why? Why? Why?

 

It's a very painful question, but it would be hard to discuss without first recognizing that you DO hold values and believe in certain standards for yourself, believe they are of merit, and believe these values should count in a tangibly rewarded way, as they are for others. Screw "je ne sais quoi" and all that other oblique fluff, which was no part of your "simple question".

 

"Why isn't this a great resume, as a human being, and if it is, why am I not getting the 'job'?" you were asking.

 

I think it's important to honestly recognize the nature of that question, what's implied about values, and what the nature of that painful feeling is. And to not veer off into some relativistic convoluted argument when I present this resume to you for your own scrutiny, your own evaluation, YOUR OWN JUDGMENT.

 

Just because if you don't really even recognize the nature of your own question, it'll be hard to uncover any answers, let alone ones that make sense or lead to possible resolutions.

[ProtestTheHero]

Then I will explicitly say that this list sucks because they are my traits and I am miserable and alone. That's about as much as I can give you for a different answer.

[tiredofvampires]

This should have been in bold, underline, italic:

 

when I present this resume to you for your own scrutiny, your own evaluation, YOUR OWN JUDGMENT.

 

ETA: Just saw your post, so I guess that nullifies this post.

[tiredofvampires]

So you're saying that someone you met with those traits would suck as a person? (taking their emotional state out of the equation)

[tiredofvampires]

And just so you know, that's not a rhetorical question. It's a REAL QUESTION.

 

Can you answer that seriously?

[tiredofvampires]

*sigh*

 

And I know this is way beyond classical logical reasoning...but I just wanted to point out that:

 

These are my traits.

I am miserable and alone.

 

Therefore, these traits suck.

 

 

Is a crap syllogism to end crap syllogisms.

 

I think you're just too depressed, clinically, to even care if there is a major fallacy going on that's hurting you.

[ProtestTheHero]

I answered your question completely the first time. I addressed friends and potential girlfriends. You still didn't answer my question but you've put several more in front of me. There's two ways to analyze something. I can evaluate the traits themselves, which I did my best to do, or I can evaluate the traits based on their consequences. If I evaluate based on the latter then they suck.

 

You don't answer my question and it's you're prerogative. I answer in the only way I can and it's bs to you. At least I answered.

[tiredofvampires]

First of all, I didn't know that you were actually asking me a direct question -- I thought your question was rhetorical.

 

Second of all, while I feel fully capable of trying to answer it, and it was a plan, the way my mind works requires me "setting a stage" to make the answer "click" more. It's not a direct A--->B shot. I could go that way, but it would just sound like a bunch of words -- blah blah blah blah blah with little visceral "ah ha" to back them up, for you to feel. So my answer began, in the only way I know how to give one that might actually have any substance you'd use, in this fashion, with that long post.

 

Third, I felt that a fuller answer would require more layers than this journal would permit and was considering other means for conveying my thoughts, using this as a springboard -- with your responses here to start.

 

I don't think the "answer" is me just saying, "here's why." I think for it to MEAN anything to you, for it to matter or be something you'd consider, it would have to be PTH-participatory, and that's what I was attempting to do. I know one thing is true about you, and actually me, too: handing out pat answers doesn't convince very well, does it? Has that ever worked?

 

And you didn't answer my question, not that I'm aware of. I'm asking you if you have basic values that matter to you and it seems you're doing everything in your power to deny that. I don't see any reference to how that list would apply to a girlfriend in your answer. I don't see an answer to the question, "would you be in interested in a stuck up, boring, unintelligent, unkind, etc. woman", real or abstract. I don't see an answer to, "would you find yourself close buddies with a guy who couldn't hold a good conversation and doesn't have your back?" And I don't see an answer to the question in post #167.

 

I hesitate with the pat answers, because as I said, they could be so much more full-bodied through a dialogue. But here goes:

 

The reason people are not caring about these qualities in you is because first, you're in the wrong place to find people who care about such things. As a tree falling in the forest can't be heard if there's no one there to hear it (sorry, I answered the unanswerable), PTH can't be celebrated where there's no one there of a mind to celebrate PTH's. Unfortunately, you've been plunked by fate into this crummy place, but you have options. It sucks that you find yourself here, but you're not stuck there, no matter how daunting and VULNERABLE it would feel to take steps to leave. You aren't nailed to a cross in this village forever if you don't want to be. If you're saying that location means nothing, even though with more variation in social landscape, you'd inevitably have many more pickings of people to interact with, and therefore, increase the probabilities of connecting with someone on your wavelength, I can't wrestle with that kind of contrarianism. If I wanted to find people who appreciated my qualities, I would not put myself in the circles you are in, because these people would not appreciate me. They do not share the values that one would have to have to appreciate me. However, if I put myself into circles where these things were valued, I would find myself surrounded by people who do care about these qualities. It's as simple as that. If I'm a Venusian, I belong on Venus, and I've got to recognize that Martians may not get me, and vice versa (no allusion to John Grey's book, "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus" here, by the way.) So I have to go where, as the Cheers theme song says, "everybody knows your name, and they're always glad you came; you wanna be where you can see, our troubles are all the same; you wanna be where everyone knows your name." In this case, "name" not just being literal, like "PTH is so popular." It means where you feel you are at home with those around you, you're recognized for your qualities, and your qualities are affirmed and validated.

 

Next, and related to the above, you're surrounded by people in the business world. And while I don't want to paint everything with such a broad brush, as I've met all kinds of people in business, on the whole, as it so unfortunately happens -- and you have said this yourself -- the business world is not kind. So you're thrust in with a kind of population -- and it really IS a subpopulation, not even comprising the majority of people in this country -- that epitomizes the antithesis of many of your qualities. And it's so concentrated, with all your family and associates and anyone you interact with being of this cloth, you're without any other balancing influences to offset this effect; and as a result, parts of your personality that are not welcome, respected, or encouraged in that environment are being orphaned by you (to use another Brene term, for parts of ourselves we disown.) You are having to treat your own qualities as others treat them in a world that is singularly opposed, by nature.

 

And on a very personal level, you're just surrounded by immediate aholes. The people you know are just, on an individual level, douches. And this is where my talk becomes empty words, I fear. If I tell you these people are douches, you may agree, but if I ask you why you would give any credence to a douche's set of values and what they care about, you will say something to defend them.

 

I really like what Brene said along these lines -- how it's not the person who is holding back your hair when you're puking that you care about. It's your enemies you care about impressing. It's the random stranger at the mall you want to impress. Who cares about the people who ACTUALLY DO CARE ABOUT YOUR GREAT QUALITIES? If someone actually cared about your qualities, you wouldn't know if it came up and hit you in the face, so you're blind to them. You'd discount them. Like me. You know I think you're a diamond, even if in the rough. Do I count as "anybody"? lol, NO. I don't matter, all the people who have ever appreciated everything about you here (as remote as this is, being the internet, but many of these people following you for years, and being pretty keen to you -- I think, as much as some could in real life, because they see lots of sides to you you don't present in real life and still think you're "a closeted amazing human being"), do they matter? Hell fkn no. So part of why "no one" cares is because MY NAME IS "NO ONE", and YOU don't care about this person/these people named "No One". And when I say "my" I don't just mean ToV, I mean all the people who DO value you for your qualities in your life and who have, and I'm even discounting family when I say this, because I know family is more unconditional so even though it should count, it doesn't for our purposes.

 

No, you only care what the douches (or otherwise socially contracted) in a minority population in an outback, wasteland, homogenized, inbred caricaturesque sample care about.

 

So there you have it. In its reduced, "simple" answer form. But what that comes down to is that no one cares about the qualities you have because you do not care to find the people who care about these qualities, whom those qualities matter to. In fact, in cases, you've expressed contempt for these people, even sight unseen.

[tiredofvampires]

And just to add, since the edit window ran out, the reason I was going on about your traits and talking about the need to establish and identify what you value is because if you're going to seek out the people who will recognize these traits and care about them, first you HAVE TO VALUE THE PEOPLE WHO VALUE THESE TRAITS, WHO HOLD THEM AS VALUES. Which means, you have to even before that, place stock in the traits and their value to begin with.

 

Which means, in seeking others as a mirror of what you have within you to be valued, you must affirm for yourself that these are things YOU WANT TO VALUE.

 

YOU have to prioritize these qualities in yourself before you can value and seek them in others, who will then value them in you in return.

 

It starts, and ends, and continues, with YOU and what you are independently choosing to affirm and stand by.

[ProtestTheHero]

Are we including every person I've met at bars and school within this umbrella of aholes? I guess the problem for me is you're asking me to accept that all of these people (not just businessmen, not just drunk people, not just business majors) are "wrong" in the sense that they're missing something obvious and that I'm "right" in the sense that these qualities I possess are valuable. How can anyone actually hold that view and not be solipsistic? If I defended myself in that way would that not be the height of narcissism?

 

I can't present a slideshow of the different people I've encountered here but it would certainly take some work to make the case that all of them are flawed in what they've missed in me.

 

I don't think you are wrong in the general sense. I do think it's an issue of presenting a circle to a bunch of squares, but to assume that everyone I've met and interacted with is a square is difficult for me. I can't reconcile that with the different types of people I've run into here.

 

Leaving increases my chances for positive outcomes, even if that number remains relatively low. I just can't leave until I've finished school.

 

I don't think it's much of a mark against me that I don't internalize negative and positive comments that I'd see here. None of this is real. It's even more ethereal than social media. Those people know my name, where I live, what I do, and have a roundabout idea of a day in the life of me. No one here could possibly know any of these things, so what could they really judge? Nothing much outside of how I articulate a point on a thread.

 

PTH doesn't pass out in bathtubs drunk. PTH doesn't suffer in silence. PTH doesn't look in the mirror and hate what he sees on aesthetics alone. PTH is a forum handle that types words. Tyler is the one who does those things, and no one here can really know him from this distance.

[itsallgrand]

I just wanted to say a little something. It was striking to me what you said about "I just want to know why no one cares about these things. That's all I care about."

 

My heart just hurt for you hearing that. I've felt that at various points in my life too.

 

This is a pat answer, and it is one that came out of great pain and hard lessons by me. Maybe you can pick it up a little earlier than I did. It took into my thirties to really really get it.

 

It's not about you. It's about them. Everyone is living in their own little realities; no matter what you are or do or don't do, you can't make them be or do anything. Anything at all. And there are lots of messed up people out there, lots .

 

If you think about it, it's actually almost child like center of the universe kind of thinking to assume otherwise. And little ones do; because they need other people so much, so inevitably, everything in their figuring out of why things are (especially bad things!) goes back to "I must have done something wrong, or be something wrong, for something bad to happen or someone to do something that hurts me or sucks".

 

I'm not insulting you. Like I said, my own thinking has gone back to that plenty over the years. My family (in particular, my mothers, and that is a huge family with what I like to describe as a very socialist-tribal influence which is also highly dysfunctional) really screwed with my thinking to do with that - and to be frank - it has taken me a long time to grow up emotionally, in part because I simply didn't have any decent models and had a lot of toxic models.The way I see it now; pretty much all the adults in that family are still emotionally kids. And so each generation has and is basically sucking from each new generation what they need as kids themselves, it's pretty weird.

 

Like I think I have shared with you before, because you wrote a poem I really appreciated about a man who lives on the street who put some real fear in me (which isn't really easy to do). That I have worked with and been around a lot of situations where people are really at their lowest, and what most consider the very bottom of the social ladder.

 

So many of the kids that grow up around that never do come to understand - what happened in their life, it wasn't about them. And as a kid of an alcoholic, and all the other crap, it took me a long time to understand too that it isn't wasn't about me. I am totally separate and got entangled in it when forming; but it isn't me.

 

It hurts and it is really hard if you have never been truly recognized. It's hard to see yourself with no one to help you. It really is. But it can be done.

 

Sure maybe it is just words on a screen and I don't know you, but I would be truly sad if you were to just be one of those who gives up in a bottle of booze and blames himself forever. Every life is precious.

[tiredofvampires]

It's not a question of being ultimately "right" or "wrong" (not that I am devoid of opinions and personal biases, but they are irrelevant here), in how people are seeing you. The reason for their not valuing your qualities (and we are being presumptuous here as well, because we're daring to speak for people who have not really weighed in here about you, but let's just go with the presumption they don't value your qualities, which is a little farther than overlooking, which is likely what's going on in at least 72% of cases) could be anything, from being unable to appreciate certain things and ignorant, to not knowing you well enough, to being ships passing in the night, to being too absorbed with other things to reach out to you and/or in their own worlds, to simply and purely being DIFFERENT from you and therefore, not a match. INCOMPATIBLE would be the best way to describe it. And as you well know, incompatibility doesn't imply one person's POV is more right than another's. You could indict me from where you stand, let alone reject me, because we have fundamentally incompatible views, and does that mean you're "right"? So we could leave out any value judgments about what their reasons are for bypassing you, and simply conclude that you are not in sync. That is not a referendum on your value or the value of your qualities. That just IS. I hate that kind of no-statement sentence, but you know what I mean, I think. It may not be a referendum on them and their close-mindedness, or any other negative attribute we could ascribe to them, either. It may not be that they are "missing something" with you, but rather, that you're missing each other, and that's fine because frankly, you're not missing much with them. If you were, you'd really be digging their company, wouldn't you? It'd just fit like a hand in a glove, NATURALLY. The evidence of your not having friends to bond with is indisputable -- the cause and the interpretation of that is where you're just pulling stuff out of the sky based on your internal, ceaseless, self-deprecating dialogue, which this hypothesis just snaps right into.

 

Of course -- and here I AM biased, and feel fine to be in this regard -- if they don't share a lot of the core values I've mentioned in that list that make a person decent as a person (and which I think you share, I THINK, though you're evading it quite well), then yeah, they sure ARE missing something. But that thing that's missing would have nothing to do with you per se. It's something that's missing a lot in the world, and they're reflective of that. I don't think it's arrogant for me to say that, because I hold myself to these standards equally.

 

So how many of these people are just incompatible and how many are out-and-out aholes? I couldn't possibly say, since I'd have to meet and vet them all. Having run into my fair share of business majors, I've found many of them to be so incongruous with me, I couldn't operate in their world. Lots of bravado, lots of emphasis on pure hedonism without regard for consequences, obnoxiousness (lol, though artists sure can cash in on the hedonism and obnoxiousness, too) lots of people trying to skate by with little work, materialism up the ass, conventional ideas about everything, hubris, lack of creativity and by-the-book thinking, ridiculous vanilla-mindedness when benign -- just a ton of cringeworthy stuff to me. Maybe someone could say I'm "missing something" with all that, and them. Fair enough -- I feel I'm missing out on a lot of ahole behavior or just plain boredom, and finding the goods in that would be like panning for gold (and in your age bracket, in Antarctica.) The business people I've ever meshed with had something else going on the side, and were older -- something entirely different, and I see that that's where it's going to have to be at with you (which is another whole discussion, but I see you needing to find a way to live a double life of some kind -- which I see as an exciting prospect.) The ones that weren't displaying immature and mindless behavior and ahole fare, I would just say I very neutrally have found I simply DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING IN COMMON WITH, except maybe we both like Italian or something (just to give an example), but how far does that go, I mean you can't base a whole friendship on one isolated interest in common. (And here it's worth noting, which shouldn't be parenthetical because it's important, that most people who have been seasoned by life will tell you the truth: that you're lucky if you have one or two people in this world who REALLY get you, as friendships go. Seeing the world the same way to me is the heart of the strongest of friendships, and that's not as easy as it sounds; so as it is, kindredness is hard to find anywhere and I think the more complex a person you are with different aspects, the harder it becomes, even though you have an advantage in being superficially versatile with people [which you are]. But there's nothing wrong with that -- again, it just IS. Which means it's not something to hate, it's just something to recognize.)

 

But see, here I am, just one more opinion, which is why I don't want to focus on my own observations and judgments. I will say that the things you've described about those who have been closest to you -- your family and their choices, the way you were treated at work -- if not directly aholish to you, which did occur, could be described as inadvertently or otherwise obliquely bordering on it with carelessness, self-centeredness exploitation, and opportunism. I'm not indicting everyone equally, but quite a lot of people in your closest circles have different slices of ahole pie they've helped themselves to. Some took a sliver, some took a large wedge.

 

I don't call the people you run into at bars who are just innocuous drunks "aholes", but nor are we talking about any kind of rapport potential. And I wouldn't expect that from such an environment either -- it's almost MADE to keep people apart, I feel. At a numb distance. People are not going there to share with eachother, they are going to share their apartness.

 

And this covers the teeny gamut of environments you find/put yourself in.

 

Just because there is a warm body in front of you who walks away doesn't mean, again, that this is any kind of statement about your value as a person or the values you hold. Whether that's in a bar, or in a classroom, in an office setting, or anywhere you may find yourself with people who walk away. Why do you have to make any of them "right" about you?

 

The point is, if you've tried the slipper on a thousand feet, and all of them have not fit, that doesn't make the 1001st one more right or wrong for not fitting, and it doesn't mean there's something wrong with the shoe, either.

 

Moving into the shapes analogy to emphasize, I'm glad you at least agree with my take that it's like presenting a circle to a bunch of squares. Very much so, that's what I'm saying. And you're right, maybe they're not all squares. Maybe some are trapezoids, some are parallelograms, some are rhombuses. And the problem is, they're still all quadrilaterals and so it's still not working. Don't laugh, it's not overdone! I don't doubt that you've met all kinds of people there. And what does this mean? This means nothing as far as a "consensus," because all of them could be equally unsuitable for you, and you for them, all for different reasons and lack of vibrational simpatico, for lack of less quasi New Agey terms.

 

I won't deny that the situation sucks. But I don't believe you have to stay in a place that maximizes your chances of falling through the cracks this way. Remember when you were preparing to go to law school, and you went to an orientation before the semester started? You said that within like one week, you had already made solid bonds with people that felt like Cheers to you. You expressed a strong sense of belonging there, and it was almost instantaneous. I'm not saying that the law school environment didn't have its drawbacks socially as well, and you can still do better overall. Someplace else -- and not in either law or business school. And I will add, you not only experienced that without anyone else like another male buddy to play off of (as was the case in your senior year with your best friend), but you did something you had only said months before you couldn't dream of: make good, close friendships with women, of all outlandish things, breaking through a glass ceiling of your own perceived abilities and tendencies. You made fast friends primarily of women, in a context where other men were not sharing the attention, in an uncharted environment -- so all the credit goes to you and your qualities, in this most challenging of situations. It was 100% YOU that drew these ladies, and their confidences. But that is a TASTE of what I believe is waiting for you out there. That can happen again. You've lost nothing since then, except the ground accross state lines when you migrated to an unfortunate plot of earth, populated by some dreary and ill-fitting characters.

 

You should be internalizing these outcomes right now, until you can leave and find the circles, every bit as little as you're internalizing anything here, on ENA.

 

Even though I don't believe anyone in your real life knows Tyler.

 

So let's be clear about that: you don't give people much to accept or reject (which says even less about you), because no one in your real life, not even your own dad, knows Tyler, let alone some professor, ex-client, ex-boss, or classmate. Knowing his name, what he does, where he goes to school, what his daily life looks like in terms of where he parks his car and when, what he's majoring in, is not knowing Tyler.

 

Those here who have seen PTH despair of company and companionship, whose suffering is no longer "silent", who have seen his dramatic and evocative flair, who have read his epiphanies, laughed at his wry humor, who have seen him rage over what he sees in the mirror even though everyone else sees something horrendously self-underrated, who have read his accounts of preparing to drink enough to pass out in the bathtub, who have read of his hopes to beat back feelings of inadequacy with self-injury and punishment, of his desires to end it all or never wake up, who have shared some of the stories about the women who have given him pangs of hope that he can experience love in its full flower because it lies dormant in his heart -- these people know Tyler.

 

Or at least, this is where Tyler has made Tyler knowable.

[Silverbirch]

I think that probably people in your do really care that you are who and what you are - your issues are more with your OWN feelings than what others thin of or feel for you. sorry, I know that sounds so banal.

[tiredofvampires]

I think that probably people in your do really care that you are who and what you are - your issues are more with your OWN feelings than what others thin of or feel for you. sorry, I know that sounds so banal.

 

I think there's probably a lot of truth in that. Because we know that PTH has such a warped view of certain things, which we can SEE -- such as his own physical image -- no doubt there are other ways he's misinterpreting and distorting what is observed by other people and appreciated, as he filters it through his self-rejecting interpreter. I don't doubt that finding kindred souls is not turning up anything substantive, otherwise he'd be out there with friends and feeling accepted somewhere. But as I said, there could be a myriad of reasons for that, up to and including the fact that you can meet someone and have a perfectly good impression of them, but it goes no further because there's too little intersection and motivation to take anything further. That doesn't mean they DON'T LIKE or CARE about your good qualities.

 

I just can't leave until I've finished school.

 

Why can't you transfer credits and finish somewhere else? That's not uncommon at all.

[tiredofvampires]

I don't know if it's just my mood or what....but that video makes me feel like crying.

 

There are so many majestic vistas there...so many beautiful things. Each one of them, a reason. For me.

 

That tree in the beginning...that tree. It's so incredible. And yes, "incorruptible" and "innocent." These things are here for us.

 

Sorry, this feels like an intrusion...

[ProtestTheHero]

There is no such thing as an intrusion in this "journal." It's just my thoughts and the people patient enough to read and respond.

[tiredofvampires]

That's cool, I'm glad I'm not intruding...

 

Because I had another video I wanted to "drop off", lol.

 

I don't know if you'd get anything out of this, but I certainly thoroughly enjoyed it. Enough to watch more than once.

 

I won't give too much of a preamble to it, except to say it's another piece featuring Brene Brown (believe it or not, she's not the only person I'm into, ha, but I just think she straddles many topics and worlds that intersect with you). This comes on the heels of her publication of her book, "Daring Greatly," which was named a top business book of 2012 (as you'll recall from an earlier post.) When I can clear my plate of other obligations, I plan on picking it up myself.

 

This is a little different from the other videos, in that this is a much more intimate conversation, one-on-one, not a lecture. And while it's focused on her, there is actually a robust dialogue with that guy who is interviewing her. And they're talking about vulnerability, but it goes into many related real-world applications of the subject, with a lot of discussion about business models. In her other videos, she talks about how vulnerability is the "birthplace of all creativity" and this video goes into more depth about that concept. Among other things.

 

As a side note of interest, you should check out who this guy is, in his own right -- but only AFTER watching this video. For the reason that it keeps your viewing of the video more free of preconceived notions if you look him up later. But do go to his own site, read his bio, look around there after you've watched this.

 

[video=youtube;Sd3DYvBGyFs] ]

[ProtestTheHero]

I'm not much of a poster or sharer anymore. I'm loathe to give people advice because it just doesn't feel like I have that "right" anymore. You probably wouldn't take career advice from a homeless guy with a sandwich poster announcing the imminent apocalypse. Sure, I have had successes with people and with women. I know I've had experiences and opportunities that many struggling dudes on here would love to enjoy for themselves. I don't feel incompetent. When I was playing the game I played it well, but I'm not interested in playing anymore. I don't have ethereal social goals or relationships (romantic or platonic) and so nothing can go awry.

 

I've spent the last three years learning how to lose things. I've been shedding my skin. Many of these experiences are common to everyone. Life and career opportunities end college friendships. I dealt with that like any other person. It's just a symptom of growing up.

 

I've been reassessing my life since May 2011. I minimized the importance of my parents divorce after that May graduation because I never cared about their relationship. I wasn't close with my mom. She represented everything I didn't like about a certain type of woman. She was simple, hypercritical, and selfish. People have a hard time understanding the situation. When my Dad remarried I was more or less forced into a situation where I had to acclimate to his new wife and her kids. In my head, I don't have a stepmother or step-siblings. I didn't choose any of these people and our closeness is merely a product of proximity. However, she has a hard time understanding my relationship with my mom. I think my "callousness" bothers her. She let up a little bit when I tried to give her an idea of what she's like. Imagine a woman who was unimpressive academically ripping into a son who was in the top 1% of his class for not being perfect enough. She wanted trophies to prance around her sisters because she's a middle sister and has issues. She wanted playthings. Imagine being made fun of for your looks when you first enter into that awkward, acne-ridden, pubescent stage and all your mom has to say is, "Well, if you fixed your face they wouldn't tease you." Good stuff, mom. Good talk. I'm glad we got together.

 

I just don't have time to reach out to people like that. I won't make a long distance call to keep in touch with someone like that. It's funny because now I'm living in her home state and I'm less than 15 minutes from her extended family, some of whom were incredibly close with me growing up. I learned to lose them too. When they divorced my family chose sides and I SO remind them of my dad both in mannerisms and general appearance. I'm an unwelcome reminder of a man they don't particularly enjoy being around. Does it bother me? I can't say that it does. I don't want to be around anyone that doesn't want to be around me.

 

So I kept on pruning. The problem is that there's really nothing to prune anymore. I've watched my Dad turn into a functioning drunk. I know it's a product of his chronic pain and I don't fault him too much for it, but this isn't the same person that preached Spartan values of success to my brother and I. This is a man in an incredibly weakened state who is just happy his new wife holds him to no standards of behavior. This is called "acceptance." This is called "unconditional love."

 

If I was going to marry someone, I'd want it to be someone who shares my aspirations and ambitions. I'd want her to be there for me, but at the same time I'd want someone willing to provide a check or a kick in the ass if she felt that I was being an idiot. Dad is now equating "yes-men" with love. Fair enough. He's been through enough.

 

On August 9, 2014, I'll be 25 years old. It's just my brother and my free-falling father who very graciously finances my schooling (therefore, my life). I've shed all my skin and for roughly 3 years I've been incognito. I haven't pursued friendship. I have no interest in pursuing girls. No girl should want to be with me right now. I don't know that I could really respect someone who wanted me given the spot I'm in. I don't really have much money. I left law school because I knew I wouldn't make money (and my peers nearing graduation are terrified, so I know I made the right decision to leave). I'm now less than a year away from graduating with an Accounting degree and a perfect 4.0 GPA. I've "hibernated" from people in order to create a machine aspiring for career success. I've settled for nothing less than perfection. I've sacrificed everything else for this goal so that I could emerge as someone I could be proud of when all is said and done.

 

Tyler the student, the soon to be 25 year old who hit the reset button, is not someone worthy of pride. In one year I hope to be Tyler, the soon to be suit-wearing CPA of a public accounting firm. That is someone worthy of pride. I'm striving to maintain perfection but this will be a tough year. I tear myself apart for who I am now but it inspires me. It's sort of a sick muse. I look around and see the life I couldn't live and must escape from and the fear of that life drives me. I don't want to be another millennial struggling for meaningful, well-paid work in a tough economy. I am the master and the slave, and right now I'm cracking the whip to ensure that I end up at a place that will facilitate total independence. I can't stay in the world that my father has dragged me into through his marriage. This place is intellectually, emotionally, and financially poor. Everyday I see people making decisions predicated on the knowledge that they're going nowhere fast. They're throwing everything away.

 

25 years. Just one more. Then we can reemerge into the world of people. I'm not interested in learning to live as the caterpillar. Let's wait for the butterfly. Then I'll find my people.