Advice

[dwas528]

I suppose this is kinda long and I am just guessing this is the best place to put this. I have never really looked for advice anywehre and this is kinda convuluted but I am driving myself nuts here, it almost seems obvious but I just cant believe it so, here we go:

 

I have been friends with this person for a long time, since we were fairly young. Just friends, i mean i always had feelings for this person, but being young i never ever wanted to admit it because i really do and did enjoy the friendship. Anyways about 2 years ago, this person ended up dating my twin, there was this big fall out between all of us as we were all fairly good friends. Nw when i say friends, the truth is we were not like very PERSONAL friends, we shared a few things in common that served as outlets for our interaction, but our conversations were never deep you know. I mean we were close but not PERSONAL, if that makes any sense. Anyways, I took the two years to figure myself out. Did I like this person because of who they were, because they were a friend and the feelings just progressed, was it a crush, infatuation, what have you. I got some counseling but not much, because by the time I OPTED for that, the doctor pretty much said that I seemed to have everything figured out.

 

I wasnt jealous of my twin, i wasnt really bitter either. I had a feeling it wouldnt last and my twin would end up screwing stuff up. Turns out it happened. Well now 2 years later, i find myself living in a town 4 hours away from home and this persn is living here as well. We hung out a few times when i first moved for work and when i opened up again, it was, "I jsut want to be friends" etc. Now here is the thing, I am a very shy person. I am not too experienced when it comes to dating, sex, etc. so I am very shy in that regard. My "friend" seems very very shy and insecure in that regard as well. This person is not used to that kidn of attention and you could tell it makes this person nervous. Anyways, this person couldnt even really look at me when "rejecting" me a few weeks ago, despite thsi person ALWAYS being comfortable around me. To understand how shy i am, I would not have even have "opened" up again if I truly did not feel this person was sending those type of vibes. The body language that countless doctors etc talk about, all of the nonverbals, so much so that i was almost overwhelmed myself, everything but touch, but this person is very shy and so am I so I knew that wouldnt really be there right away, I mean, I was even trying to be optimistic because everything i was reading, books, etc was saying this person was interested/attracted to me. But, needless to say, 2 weeks ago or so(maybe 3), i was "rejected" so that is ALWAYS in teh back of my head. Now i never tried to make a move, it was kind of a verbal, i think you are into me over instant message and then in person, but i never attempted for a kiss or anything like that.

 

But anyway, we hang out a lot, basically date, up until recently(and this is my own doing), I never heard about this persons problems etc. I was not being used as an "emotional" outlet/friend. We just had a great time. I wanted to get to knw this person deeper, so I started to ask those questions and show I understand. Now we can spend countless hours together flirting, joking, laughing and having a good time. I pay for things sometimes so does this person, money is not an issue. This person KNOWS I am into them. I have complimented them, phsyical features etc in very endearing ways. Well, this person has also admitted to being bicurious, but has always, always insisted they are not completely gay. They also insist it is more a crush/infatuation than bicuriosity.

 

From what ive heard, this person has just gone through very bad relationships with very stupid people who give members of my sex bad names. This person is very, self admittedly, has intimacy issues, very shy and seems insecure. Well, weeks have gone by since i last verbalized my feelings to this person, and truthfully i have been absolutely happy spending time hanging out with this person. We are for all intents and purposes dating, we talk about future plans like going to events etc. Everything, EVERYTHIGN is there except the intimacy of kissing/more, and I can live without more but I would like to be able to express my affection. Since both of us are very shy, i have started to touch this person, in safe manners, to try and get this person and myself comfortable with it.

 

we are completely comfortable being alone late at night together at either of each others places and if you ask me for my gut feeling, this person WANTS me to "make a move" so to speak. Just everything in my core says it. reading this persons body language, verbal hints, etc. Anytime this person mentions someone who MIGHT make me jealous they recant it by saying that person is not single etc. Whenever we leave each others company it is really really awkward, like either of us DONT know how to "end" the evening and like neither of us want to leave. Believe me when I say that for me to really say taht this person is giving me those nonverbal cues, means a lot because I am usually very aloof to that stuff and ive been trying my hardest to be pessimistic as to not face rejection again, but they really seem present.

 

Any time i refer to anther person I may be seeing this person gets jealous too, it seems. ASSUMES i am going out on dates with this person, jumps to pretty far leaps conclusion wise about that etc. I dont know what specifically my question is, i am just lost, I dont mind spending money with this person(i dont buy this person gifts really, so I would never say ON this person) because i truly enjoy this persons company more than anything, but it really cant last like this either. I mean im not even referring to sex, but just to know im there's and vice versa and be able to hold them etc and it just seems like both of us are so shy and unsure because this person was with my twin and there will be friends that judge us etc, it just feels like it makes it so much harder for both of us to "want it" yet i really feel like I am having an emotional affect on this person in a good way. A true way. The truth is, i have not been happier these last few weeks even just "hanging out" but i choke up everytime I want to just kiss this person because I am so inexperienced and shy and insecure. I used to be overweight and just very insecure, now i have people come on to me and im just not used to being the aggressor or having anyone "want" me, yet I feel like if this were just a random person and not someone I knew so well, not soemone who IS a friend, that I would have kissed the person already because there would be nothing to lose. Based on all of the body language thats been going on.

 

At the same time, this person has been through a LOT emotionally. It is clear that this person does not know what they want, with the bicurious infatuations(that this person hasnt really acted on, at least not in a manner that isnt normal for someone of this persons age) and the horrible past relationships, yet I feel thsi person is theirselve around me and thats why we hang out so much. When we part, this person normally will text me a "follow" up goodbye, saying something silly, irrelevant, just for "conclusion" purposes, like they really didnt want me to leave. I dont know, just maybe some general advice or opinions, I mean recently I have been ramping up the touching and what not in "friendly" areas just to get us comfortabl eand it seems like they are doing the same with me, brushing my arm etc when passing stuff. We have no "personal space" issues, no nervousness. I mean, when I look in their eyes this person gets nervous, it is so cute, this person will fumble with door locks, this persons speech starts to stumble through words, almost loses track of what they want to say. It drives me nuts because i know im having an affect on them. Last night I sat in silence as this person did something for class, for about 2 hours, occasionally making small talk but they were hard at work and each time i asked if they wanted me to leave it was "no" and this was getting really late, 1am ish.

 

I just I dont know and i am OK with taking it slow because I am so happy, when I am around this person i just feel GOOD and when I am apart I mean I dont know, everything seems "less", i just dont want someone to jump in and "steal" this person. I mean I am CONFIDENT in everythign i do around this person, save for going for a kiss or whatever, but I am SO insecure afterwards, almost like im living in my own head. Maybe some advice or opinions, I would be happy being a little less vague through like a personal message or something, because this is a common forum and im sure this person, if reading this, would recognize it is about them.

 

Thanks so much

[oldenoughtoknow]

From what you've said, I'd say go for it. You're getting enough good signs. But she is just out of a relationship. Being in a relationship with your twin adds to the...weirdness, apprehension, etc., etc. Give it some time, and slowly ramp up the closeness and touching. Watch a movie and snuggle together. At some point, the moment will seem right to lean in for a kiss.

[dwas528]

We are you know. Sunday night she got pretty wasted and texted me at like 12am, kinda complaining about not having fun where she was etc. So she gets home and says shes feeling sick. I mean i dont live far and i wasnt doing anything so i offred to bring her food etc if she needed it(i really dont mind you know) she didnt want me to really, but i did anyway. she looked like death on her bed when i walked in, but instantly spruced up and started 'fixing" her hair when i walked in, we talked for a little and I left at like 2am, whatever. i was happy, i generally enjoy talking to her you know, which sucks casue im so used to just trying to "hook up". then yesterday i invited her for ice cream, got taht, then bought tickets to some event next week. Paid seperately but she asked the dude concerned to see wwe were sitting together, the guy insisted we were. Then she invited me over to her house later to watch a movie, not sure she was looking for me to make a move or not, i think she enjoys my company too, but you know i get there and we talk. she insists she needs to "finish off this liquor" so she makes one drink, makes me one drink and we talk. Never finished the movie, a few times she insisted she was tired or would be(granted it was 11pm) and i kept telling her id leave if she wanted me to you know? Anyways, so she says she was gonna clean and go to bed. We never really watched the movie. it was on but we were talking, about sex, etiquette(women vs men when it comes to social status and sex) stuff like that, and we were both lost in the film, so i was getting ready to leave and she told me to keep my calendar open for another event at the end of this month. of course i said yes you know.

 

But i mean i dont know. I got the sense she wanted me to do something, but its so hard because, i mean usually im not this "shy" but i really like her you know. Andi realize all of what happened before is probably an emotional weight on her, so i dont want her to think im rushing, i dont want to force her if she isnt ready and because of my understanding of WHY she may be nervous, it makes it even harder for me to go in for a kiss you know? Because i want to start off right because I really do like her. I just dont want to be taking my time and "lose" her. I dont think i will you know, but of course that fear is there too.

 

I mean the touching is becoming easier. IM usually not like too shy, i guess with touching I am, but it is not like I am completely inexperienced, just around her it is different, but i think both of us are getting more comfortable with brushing hands, etc, its a process and i cannot tell if I am making progress. At the same time we basically do things as a "couple" and I am happy, its not like I am looking for sex, you know, just itd be nice to be more intimate, kissing etc, to solidify the relationship i guess. I guess my thing is, everythign is telling me she "wants me", then why doesnt SHE kiss me? I mean ive told her a few times(most recently 3-4 weeks ago) that I have those type of feeligns for her, so she has to know i wont reject her. yes ive told her about other dates i have and could have been on recently, but i still dont get why she seems so shy. It seems like we both are so nervous and it makes the goodbyes really akward haha.

[oldenoughtoknow]

Sunday night sounded like a good step forward. Then ice cream. Now a concert. You guys are busy. You really should do something soon, or she may start to feel it as a kind of rejection, especially since you've already mentioned how you're feeling. Snuggling on the couch in a dark room watching a movie is a great segue. BTW, she's not going to kiss you first. I'm sure she already feels a bit weird from going out with your twin. Even if you've told her you have feelings for her - that's all the more reason you have to do it. It's the guy's job. Don't go for the hook up pass, and don't worry that it has to be a perfect hollywood moment. It sounds like she's giving you lots of green light opportunities. Just pick one.

[dwas528]

Do you think she could lose interest or take it as a rejection? I mean i know you dont know the girl etc but, i dont know. She seems to be giving me a fair amount of chances. Its like from an outsider perspective im slapping myself because its almost obvious you know? but shed have to understand it isnt like it is so seasy for me you know? she isnt a stupid girl at all. I mean im not rejecting her, i dont want to at all you know?

 

As far as the kissing thing goes or even the "cuddling thing' should i ask like "do you want to share teh couch/bed" whatever we are sitting on at the time? Yesterday we werent on the same furniture item watching the movie. And kissing, is it ok to like ask? But even then i fear if she says no, rejects me, it iwll screw the friendship up, which is ok with me for now but it feels like both of us are in this endless circle of maybe wanting to make it "official" but we both have our own intimacy issue. It "kinda" bothers me, the twin thing, but not that much really, ive kinda disassociated myself from that, its more, i just want HER to be comfortable. And I guess ive never "stolen" a kiss so I really dont know "how" i suppose. I mean the women i have been with have been a lot more forward than this girl and i had NO fear because i really didnt have feelings for them other than lustful.

[oldenoughtoknow]

If you've let the cat out of the bag, and then don't follow up with some sort of action, then yeah, she may feel it as a rejection. Think how you'd feel if the situation were reversed - she said she had feelings for you, and then was nice and friendly and...and...and...uh, I'm waiting here. Eventually, you'll say to hell with this and move on.

 

I've never been one to talk much in these situations. You want to make her feel you, not hear you. You do that with your presence and your actions. Slowly press for closer physical proximity. Don't ask if you can sit with her. Just sit. Observe her reaction. Then talk and slowly nudge yourself even closer. Eventually, segue to a pleasant topic (not necessarily sappy, but not the latest newsworthy murder rampage or politics either - maybe something short about something nice she did earlier in the day), try to lock eyes with her and lean in for a kiss. With all the green lights you've been getting, it sounds like she will be receptive.

[dwas528]

i understand what you mean as far as feeling rejected. But when i opened up to her, she basically rejected me. Said she didnt see me romantically or whatever. She couldnt look me in the eye though when she said it. I told her to look at me and say it and she couldnt. So i told her i dont want that to change us as friends etc and since then(again about a month ago) we've hung out a lot spent a ton of time together and she seemed to get more comfortable about a week ago when we had this really personal discussion, she ended up taking back some of the things she thought about me, said I hadnt really changed and that was a good thing, things like that. Jokingly said i would probably make a good dad when we were talking about something similar. I mean we've gone to movies done all of these things yet i cant get that initial rejection a few weeks ago out of MY head. For all intents and purposes she could have not wanted to date me cause of dating my twin etc but it still hurt at the time.

 

That sounds good, your advice about how to go in for the kiss, and im sure i can do it, maybe even standing up or whatever, it is just so weird, our "goodbyes" are ALWAYS awkward and then when one of us gets home(depending on whos place we are at) there is usually this gratuitous text message either sent from her or I saying something stupid. Like we both knew the goodbye was weird you know? I mean she plays with her lips sometimes but i cant tell if its a natural habit or if she wants to be kissed. same thing with the typical "playing with her neck" thing. She touches her neck her upper chest occasionally, especially when we are deep in conversation or have just been, i dont know. I guess I have to go for it sooner or later. I figure i have up until around the end of this month to do something, i just want to know SHE is comfortable. Again we are going to a play in a week, so maybe take her to a fancy restaurant before then? i dont know, slowly the touching has become a little more consistant. It used to seem like there was this 5-10 minute grace period wed take to get comfortable in each others personal space but that time is almost non existant now, no problem reaching over each other, touching while handing things any of that. and that "tension" in the air seems gone, atleast that nervousness I had and it seems like if she had any thats gone for her too.

 

So i feel like we are making progress, its just so unlike me because ive never like had these feelings for someone and i never i dont know, struggled this much intimately well never was this careful with touch etc.

[dwas528]

I sent her a text asking her out on a "date" for tonight. I am under the assumption if she accepts this is a good thing, or if her excuse for not being able to go is legit. If she accepts, i can probably proceed with a kiss right? maybe goodnight?

[oldenoughtoknow]

Her rejection is the biggest issue, but as I said, she was fresh out of a relationship with your TWIN. She's showing definite signs of interest. You just have to choose your moment. Don't focus so much on the kiss. Don't focus on choosing the right words. Focus on making her feel it. Make her feel safe and comfortable being close to you. That's why sitting on a couch watching a movie is perfect. You're alone in comfortable surroundings. You sit next to each other. You talk and touch her arm and move closer during a bonding moment in the conversation. Eventually, there will be a quiet moment when you lock eyes and lean in for a kiss. You'll know if she's comfortable with it by looking in her eyes. You know, just like in the movies. Good luck.

[dwas528]

Thanks. I am going to wait until after shes done with class to ask. I think part of my own apprehension is the ambiguity. I mean we go out all the time. Always alone, but there is never anything "official" so me not knowing are we dating are we together. I mean we have spent like 6 hours together alone, you know till 1am-2am a fair amount of time. Sometimes we just get lost in conversation about her etc. It feels like few people have ever really asked her about her so its new to her, but its so great hearing about her, because im generally interested. I love it.

 

I mean sunday, she wanted a drink so she made us both a drink. She has mentioned getting buzzed to "get liquid courage" and it almost seemed like she needs it around me, but I dont want to "hook up" with her drunk, like in my opinion, all that is fine if you are dating and together you know, but with the ambiguity surrounding us, I would feel like crap if that is how we first got intimate(not even sex, just kissing too) and because I dont know her tolerance, it is hard for me to gauge. For me it is kinda rough because when I drink, i want her even more you know, but I have done such a good job at staying cool about it. I mean i understand, she could use that as an "out" with her friends etc if they make it weird for her because she dated my twin, but id like our first intimate/relationship moment whether kiss or otherwise to be sober, at least on her end. Maybe thats a personal thing, i dont know.

 

And it sucks because as a guy, i feel almost conditioned that snuggling on a couch watching a movie together would imply sex. Even though logically i know it doesnt, taht is still in the back of my mind, which makes asking to share a couch or wahtever/just plopping down even harder. Truth, i would be 100% satisfied just cuddling watching a movie. i like the physical, but i dont live for it. As I told her during one of our lengthy talks at night, "lust doesnt always last", so I dont want to start our romantic relationship on the phsyical, but I also dont want to lose her.

[oldenoughtoknow]

You need to lead this situation. Be very clear in your mind what you want to happen, and push to make it so. You like her. You are not going to hook up with her. Snuggling on a couch doesn't lead to sex any more than having one drink leads to being fall down drunk. Share one or two glasses of courage to diffuse the tension. Sit with her on the couch. Watch a movie. Talk. Look for an opportunity and kiss her. No hook up. Everyone's clothes stay on. That's it. That's your goal. That's what's going to happen.

[dwas528]

I like that. Ill go with that. Dinner than her or my place for a movie. Pending she accepts the invite when i ask her when shes done with class. Thank you.

[dwas528]

Well she laready had plans. I cant help but think she is a little ticked with me cause of not doing anything monday, but she didnt seem upset when I left monday, she seemed rather nervous when i left but it is completely possible she was upset and was just masking it. Im not too worried just like blech, i told her if it ends early we can still go

[dwas528]

Ok, well though she had plans, she had to study or whatever, she invited me over, said it would be fun. So i dont know.

[oldenoughtoknow]

Sounds like she can't get enough of dwas528.

[dwas528]

Really? All i did was as her to go out, let me buy her dinner at a nice place. She said she had to study/fantasy draft. Then i said just let me know if it finishes early and she invited me over to help draft, said it owuld be fun etc.

 

So i dont know, of course i said yes but, i dont know. I mean im going, we will probably have a good time. She works at like 5am too so.

[oldenoughtoknow]

You offered to buy her dinner. She had other plans and turns you down. Then she counters and invites you along. All of a sudden, her draft chore becomes fun for her. That's a definite sign of somebody that likes you being around. Now, if you can just bump it up a level...

[dwas528]

im gonna try to just have fun. Im just glad she invited me over, i think it iwll be fun.

 

I guess ill add that im not sure it will lead to a kiss, not quite sure what she has planned besides this thing or whatever. but if i really feel it i guess i have to go for it. I dont know

[dwas528]

It went ok. We sat side by side and talked about the draft, had a solid time etc. Like i said she had to work at like 5am so she was going to bed early so I left at like 1130pm. was there at like 8. I was wearing the jersey of a player and she ended up "drafting" that player. And some other recommendations. It was fun, I thought. I asked if she wanted me to stop by her work tomorrow and she said it is kinda out of my way(it is) but i said its no problem then she said ya thatd be cool. Made plans to watch a sporting event tomorrow night too at my place, game starts at like 10pm.

 

IDK, i think it went well but the discussion was mainly sports, though I did inquire about her etc. Just the conversation flows so well, i dont know, it is really EASY talking to her about anything.

 

I mean was it OK that we didnt kiss tonight? i just didnt really feel it, i mean there was nothing romanticish about the evening really. I was surprised she took the player that i was wearings jersey lol, but i mean it was a solid choice.

[dwas528]

to add, i was out earlier shopping and I asked her if she wanted me to pick her up something(i knew she was going to be getting it anyway) and she said "im not trying to make you my personal assistant". I wanted to respond, "then what are you trying to make me" but i wasnt feeling it.

[dwas528]

also, now that I think about it. Usually when we are doing something, she has said me and *insert boyfriend here(usually my twin)* used to do this. And it is usually like hwat her and I are doing. LIke i said it just feels like we are together, but i dont know what her deal is

[oldenoughtoknow]

The "insert boyfriend here" thing sounds like another green light. It sounds like you did fine. You don't want your first kiss to be in the middle of an assignment. Your heads are involved in something else and not each other. The personal assistant thing is slightly worrisome. You don't want to get friendzoned. I think you need to make a move fairly quickly. Watching a game tonight may not be the right venue either. Tonight, try to nail down an evening in the next few days for the dinner and home movie. Good luck.

[dwas528]

The "insert boyfriend here" thing sounds like another green light. It sounds like you did fine. You don't want your first kiss to be in the middle of an assignment. Your heads are involved in something else and not each other. The personal assistant thing is slightly worrisome. You don't want to get friendzoned. I think you need to make a move fairly quickly. Watching a game tonight may not be the right venue either. Tonight, try to nail down an evening in the next few days for the dinner and home movie. Good luck.

 

I mean but what exactly is "friendzone" I mean we are "friends" and have been for a while(10 ish years), but she doesnt come to me with her problems or anything like that. I dont feel like a "girlfriend" unless I as specifically about stuff you know?

 

I didnt go for coffee and asked her about lunch and she said she is down for lunch and again, probably doing dinner and then the game at 10. I mean we are both huge hockey fans so its not that big of a deal. It'll be at my place. I mean i constantly compliment her etc and she hasnt told me to stop. Ive even used a few nicknames/pet names, one she has corrected my spelling on. I mean, i think i have started "in the friendzone" so i dont know

[oldenoughtoknow]

You can search ENA for examples, but essentially the friendzone a phenomenon that occurs when a woman decides you're a friend and shuts off any romantic interest she has in you. Once you're there, it's really hard to get out. Starting out as friends is fine, but once you initiate interest and she seems receptive, you have to move things forward. Wait too long, and you're toast.

 

If you're flirting, that's good.

 

If she's talking about her problems with other guys, that's bad.

 

You're in kind of a gray area right now. That's why I said you need to do the dinner and movie soon.

[dwas528]

You can search ENA for examples, but essentially the friendzone a phenomenon that occurs when a woman decides you're a friend and shuts off any romantic interest she has in you. Once you're there, it's really hard to get out. Starting out as friends is fine, but once you initiate interest and she seems receptive, you have to move things forward. Wait too long, and you're toast.

 

If you're flirting, that's good.

 

If she's talking about her problems with other guys, that's bad.

 

You're in kind of a gray area right now. That's why I said you need to do the dinner and movie soon.

 

I wouldnt even say its problems with other guys. she never mentions other guys or girls for that matter. Really. She talks about her friends from work etc, but never anything like romantic. The only times she really ever mentions guys or girls romantically to me is when she makes sure to say shes not interested in them and thats where it begins and ends. we talk about her. today on the drive from lunch for instance, she opened up about something personal that she said she doesnt really talk about with anyone. Upon seeing me, she also asked if it was a new shirt(it was a dress shirt, i came from work interview), she confirmed coming over for tonight, i mean i paid for lunch, she said "You dont have to pay for my poor ass!" but as i told her, I wasn't asking. As i said, our conversations seem very "couple-esque" About her, work, her school, personal stuff about her family.

 

only one time did she ever really tell me she had problems with her past boyfriends and that was when we got really personal and she said she was wrong about me, i hadnt changed(in this case that was good), again, she also "seems" to get jealous when i mention other girls. She gets inquisitive and all of that.

 

like she just opened up about this personal problem kinda out of nowhere, we werent talking about it or anything related to it. Not even a problem, just like a personal story.

 

I'll try to nail down a dinner movie thing, but i know tomorrow she has something going on(i think she may invite me along), she hinted at seeing a movie, so im thinig maybe that on Saturday, but again, i dont know her plans, i know she usually goes out with work friends(all women) on saturday, but she is starting, as she told me, to see the bad in them, like they cant be trusted * * * * like that, so I dont know if she is going to go or not, im playing it by ear. Regardless, this coming tuesday we already have plans to go to a play, already have tickets, like i said when we bought them we paid seperately but she made sure the guy had us sitting together.

 

I am going to be honest, the ONLY reason I have not kissed her yet has everything to do with her rejecting me like a month ago(before we hung out a lot)) and the fact taht she did date my twin, because I dont know how awkward it makes her feel. Obviously not enough to stop hanging out with me.