25 and Never Had a Girlfriend

[GernBlanston]

So aside from having confidence in yourself, have you ever had confidence that dating or courtship of any sort would work? Do you feel that the whole process of boy pursuing girl is damned? I feel like you might be shooting yourself in the foot.

I'm not sure that I follow what you're saying. Certainly dating and courtship work. Men and women are attracted to each other and start relationships all the time. My experience has led me to conclude, though, that there aren't any women who are attracted to me. That realization leads me to the idea that I'm not worth dating. It's tough to live with.

 

Also, do you have friends who are girls (platonic)?

I do have platonic female friends, yes. Some are in relationships with male friends of mine and some are single. Why do you ask?

[dr_styles]

Wow Gern are you my clone? Certainly seems like it.

 

I pretty much got into this rut when I had a big crush on this girl. And ofcourse when that ended with nothing happening, I just kinda woke up "hey I'm in my 20s, haven't even come close to having a girl like me, go on a date" and so on. And just from then on, I've come pretty far with my shyness and so on, but nothing positive in my relationship-life has really happened. Separate from the shyness thing too; even when it all started I still believed "surely there would be some girls who find me remotely attractive". I don't think I'm ugly, some of you seem to think I'm attractive, pretty sure Gern doesn't think his ugly, but it just doesn't add up.

 

I know Girls like Guys too, but it just wasn't there. And that's an annoying part. As much as I don't see it, I don't think I'll ever be convinced of otherwise. I'll always believe that girls also fancy guys. Pretty hard fact to dispute really, just look on eNA lol. But then the only way it all works together is if you tack on "... just not me".

 

The whole thing about me getting romantically involved with someone is just completely alien to me now. No idea what it's like, can't seem to get anywhere near it.

[LightbulbSun]

I know what you're saying, dr_styles. I'd like to believe that I'm attractive, but whenever I look in the mirror, I see an unattractive man. I know there are guys much fatter than me, much uglier than me, much nerdier than me...all who have significant others. So I really don't know what I'm doing wrong, or how I should change myself in order to get into a relationship.

 

It would be easy if a girl just told me she's attracted to me. It happens to other guys, so I know if I was attractive, it would happen to me, too. I guess that means that the 'player' types are more attractive than the nice, kind, and dependable guys, just because they're good looking.

[GernBlanston]

I know Girls like Guys too, but it just wasn't there. And that's an annoying part. As much as I don't see it, I don't think I'll ever be convinced of otherwise. I'll always believe that girls also fancy guys. Pretty hard fact to dispute really, just look on eNA lol. But then the only way it all works together is if you tack on "... just not me".

Exactly.

 

I know what you're saying, dr_styles. I'd like to believe that I'm attractive, but whenever I look in the mirror, I see an unattractive man. I know there are guys much fatter than me, much uglier than me, much nerdier than me...all who have significant others. So I really don't know what I'm doing wrong, or how I should change myself in order to get into a relationship.

Yes, that's much the way I see it. While I don't have obvious deformities, I have to take the evidence at face value. There's no indication that I'm physically or sexually attractive to women. There's quite a bit of evidence that I'm not attractive. So, I guess I must be ugly.

[alcide]

I think you are trying too hard, and maybe the people who wants you to you they are probably too low, so love those who love you and stop lookin for perfection, relationships is never about what you want its what you can make of it. so i think you need to relax a little.l

[LightbulbSun]

I think you are trying too hard, and maybe the people who wants you to you they are probably too low, so love those who love you and stop lookin for perfection, relationships is never about what you want its what you can make of it. so i think you need to relax a little.l

 

The problem is that when you feel like you're not good enough, you're not going to try. When every time has met with failure, you start to believe that you're not good enough for most women, and how can someone just bounce back from that?

[GernBlanston]

I think you are trying too hard, and maybe the people who wants you to you they are probably too low, so love those who love you and stop lookin for perfection, relationships is never about what you want its what you can make of it. so i think you need to relax a little.l

To be honest, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying, either. Would you elaborate?

love those who love you

Well, there aren't any of those. That's essentially the problem we've been describing.

[ind2]

I'm not sure that I follow what you're saying. Certainly dating and courtship work. Men and women are attracted to each other and start relationships all the time. My experience has led me to conclude, though, that there aren't any women who are attracted to me. That realization leads me to the idea that I'm not worth dating. It's tough to live with.

 

I do have platonic female friends, yes. Some are in relationships with male friends of mine and some are single. Why do you ask?

 

I guess I was trying to dissect the issue and see if it's a question of you not having confidence in yourself, or you not having confidence that the process will work for you (slightly different distinctions). At the end of the day, I maintain that it's not a problem with the world (i.e. process), and it's not something you have to resign yourself to, and if you want it bad enough, you'll eventually get there. I can't fathom that any single guy could repel every woman he meets. I feel like if you went to a park and approached women all day and starting a small 5-minute conversation with them, and then asked them for their phone numbers, I would think that even if you get a 99% rejection rate, there are a going to be a few yeses in the bunch.

 

All I can say is that confidence >> looks, in terms of importance. Not to say you're ugly, but if you feel ugly, you might as well be ugly. It's all about how you carry yourself. I mean lots of "ugly" guys land girls, while lots of awkward, self-doubting "good looking" guys struggle. The fact that you think you are ugly is probably more impairing than actually being ugly.

 

What do your female friends have to say about this? Have you raised this issue with them?

[SnowFox]

 

All I can say is that confidence >> looks, in terms of importance. Not to say you're ugly, but if you feel ugly, you might as well be ugly. It's all about how you carry yourself. I mean lots of "ugly" guys land girls, while lots of awkward, self-doubting "good looking" guys struggle. The fact that you think you are ugly is probably more impairing than actually being ugly.

 

I agree with this. I think especially as you get older, out of the early 20's, confidence and good social skills are really the gateway toward success with women.

 

Because men are very visual and physical attraction is primary for them, they have a hard time accepting that women, overall, are not this way. Sure most women want an attractive man, but looks are irrelevant if he doesn't have a good personality. Also, many women will prioritize a man who makes them feel awesome to be around over a man who is simply good-looking and doesn't make her feel special. That is why I believe that men who are less good looking HAVE to build their inner confidence and social skills if they want to stay in the dating game.

[Knight of Hope]

...and confidence and good social skills, with respect to dating, are built off of your previous experience. Oh, but wait...

 

Furthermore, depending on your place in society, most of the available women out of their early 20s may very well be divorced and have children already. The asymmetry with respect to experience and expectations doesn't seem fair to either party involved.

 

And so we're back full circle again...

 

Which is why I go for younger women, generally. They don't have all the baggage (kids and a divorce). I could deal with a woman having kids, but I don't want her picking me just because I'd make a good dad. I want her to want me for me, regardless of the kid. I'd love the kid as if he or she were my own, but I wouldn't want that kid to be the reason my girlfriend/wife and I got together.

 

But there are single women in their mid-late 20s who aren't mothers or divorced. They're not super-common, but they are there. I know a few personally.

[GernBlanston]

But the problem I have is that, taking your extreme example, for this '1% success rate' to be the least bit significant, you'd have to approach and start 5 minute conversations with no less than 100 girls.

While I agree that ind2's suggestion is not entirely reasonable, this analysis isn't quite right. You are right that the expected number you would have to talk to in order to find one that would say yes is 100. But, there is a possibility that there'll be a yes before you get to that point. The probability of getting at least one yes if you approach 100 women is about 63%. Naturally, that means that there's a 37% probability that you won't have any success after approaching 100 women. Of course, that assumes that 1% is a reasonable estimate of your success rate. My feeling is that this is grossly overestimated, at least in my case.

 

Besides, talking to 100 women for 5 minutes each will take a little over 8 hours, as long as they're in immediate succession. You could create a situation similar to this by going to a speed dating event. I've gone to (I think) five of these. That's over 100 women. I had no success.

 

I guess I was trying to dissect the issue and see if it's a question of you not having confidence in yourself, or you not having confidence that the process will work for you (slightly different distinctions). At the end of the day, I maintain that it's not a problem with the world (i.e. process), and it's not something you have to resign yourself to, and if you want it bad enough, you'll eventually get there.

Ah, I see. Yes, I certainly agree - I don't think there's a problem with the world or the process at all. The problem lies entirely with me. But there's no reason to think I'll eventually get there, regardless of how badly I want it. In the real world, wishes don't necessarily come true.

 

Sure most women want an attractive man, but looks are irrelevant if he doesn't have a good personality. Also, many women will prioritize a man who makes them feel awesome to be around over a man who is simply good-looking and doesn't make her feel special.

And personality is irrelevant if she doesn't find him sexually attractive. Yes, there's more to sexual attraction than just looks. Personality plays into it as well (and body language, voice tone, smell, etc.), but he has to have a sexually attractive personality, not just a "good" personality. Only then can he make her feel "awesome".

 

...and confidence and good social skills, with respect to dating, are built off of your previous experience. Oh, but wait...

Very good point.

 

What do your female friends have to say about this? Have you raised this issue with them?

I've discussed this issue with some. Since they're my friends, they do feel I have some value. So, even though they don't find me attractive, they're inclined to think that I'll eventually find someone who does.

[ind2]

Okay, I guess from my point of view, I have trouble understanding a 100% rejection rate because I know many girls (friends, in fact) who would go for just about anyone because they're extremely lonely. They would at least take interest in you and talk to you for a bit (with romantic intent) if not end up as something more serious. So I feel like this is just a huge problem of allocation.

 

As for the park example, I don't think it's direly taxing. If you enjoy talking to people, then it's similar to meeting a bunch of people. I don't see it as weeding out women, or having women weed you out. I think it would be extremely exhausting to view every woman as a potential candidate who has all the deciding power (i.e. rejecting power). And if you were to approach every woman as such, then I don't know how you wouldn't eventually end up hating/fearing women. I think it's very important to set aside any assumptions or expectations and just let things happen naturally. You're not talking to random woman X in the park to get her number or see if she'll marry you and bear your children. You're talking to her for friendly, unassuming conversation. That might be a bit much on the "feel good" side, but I think if you aren't enjoying the process of meeting girls in and of itself, then I have trouble understanding how you would find the motivation to keep going. More than that, I have trouble understanding how you would make a good impression on anyone if you really hate doing it and think of every moment as a win-lose situation because I'm sure that energy would come off to the people you're meeting. I think doing whatever it is you do to get yourself out there (online dating, speed dating, clubs, approach random women in parks...), you should embrace the fact that there are benefits to be gained besides finding the one. I mean, of course, it takes work and it's not fun making yourself vulnerable, but I think you can't see it as making yourself vulnerable or as subjecting yourself to the judgement of women.

 

So from where I'm standing, I don't see it as 99 rejections. I would see it as 25 of the women were a bit bland, another 25 I didn't find physically attractive, and about 25 were flat out psycho. So I don't care what 75 women thought, therefore it's more like a 1/25 rejection rate. See, I think this is a vital distinction. 99% or whatever percentage you so claim to have as your rejection rate implies one of two things: 1) you have a 100% attraction rate to these rejecting women (which, come on, how is that possible?); or 2) you care more about your general marketability and sex appeal, and would rather see how you fare with the general female population than with the women who actually interest you. "Rejection rate" (however you measure it) is useless if you are counting every single woman, especially those you didn't care about.

 

I think that's one thing that's strikingly absent in your posts: how do you feel about these women? How selective are you? During the first minutes of interaction, how do you view this unknown woman?

 

As for your women friends, have you asked them for suggestions, things you might be able to change when approaching women?

[Knight of Hope]

Good way to look at it. It's too much of a black-and-white distinction right from the start. That's how I used to be. But now I've realized that the beginning is way too far to see if it's really black or really white - it's more of varying shades of gray. A few dates in, that gray should lighten (things are going well) or darken (things aren't going well). But you can't tell what direction it's going to go in from the start. Thus, like you said, it's very exhausting to try and classify women as "black" or "white" from the start, and a guy thinking this way probably misses out on a lot of chances to learn about dating, get some experience, see what he really wants in a woman, not necessarily what he thinks he wants.

 

Same goes for women, too. You can't tell where things are going, so if a guy seems generally cool, he should be given a chance - coffee, just chatting online, a few texts, etc - just to see how things go. A professor of mine said "Girls! I know you have a checklist for what you want in a guy. But toss it out the window - he's not going to be exactly what you expect!"

 

Anyway, I guess my point is it's dangerous to classify people as "dating material" or "not dating material" too early, unless you get really good or really bad vibes. Most people you meet won't be pure "white" or pure "black" - they'll shift in either direction as you get to know them.

 

I hope that analogy made sense.

[LightbulbSun]

I think this is similar to those who say "She rejected herself." And I think it's very true; someone who genuinely wants to be with you wouldn't reject you. They would give you a maybe, or a yes. It really was her loss.

 

I also think that the best possible thing to do is to not take it to heart. That's what I'm going to do the next time I find a girl that I'm interested in (right now, there isn't anyone.) Think about if she fits your life, not if you fit her life, and if she rejects you, obviously she wasn't a good fit.

[GernBlanston]

So from where I'm standing, I don't see it as 99 rejections. I would see it as 25 of the women were a bit bland, another 25 I didn't find physically attractive, and about 25 were flat out psycho. So I don't care what 75 women thought, therefore it's more like a 1/25 rejection rate. See, I think this is a vital distinction. 99% or whatever percentage you so claim to have as your rejection rate implies one of two things: 1) you have a 100% attraction rate to these rejecting women (which, come on, how is that possible?); or 2) you care more about your general marketability and sex appeal, and would rather see how you fare with the general female population than with the women who actually interest you. "Rejection rate" (however you measure it) is useless if you are counting every single woman, especially those you didn't care about.

You make an excellent point, though I think the analysis is a little backward. In the example, I suppose I was assuming that I'd be introducing myself to women that I find physically attractive, to start with. On that count, I don't think I'm excessively picky. If I am picky, then I live in a city with uncommonly beautiful women, since I pass by dozens and dozens of attractive women on my 20 minute walk to work every day.

 

It's true, as well, that I may not be receptive to her personality. I wouldn't rule someone out for being a bit bland, however. In fact, if she didn't reject me, I think I'd be inclined to want to get to know her better regardless of whatever personality traits I've assumed she has based on a 5 minute conversation. I'm not getting any dates, so who am I to judge and reject someone based on so little information?

 

Your numerical example above has me approaching every woman at random(note that in your analysis, my rejection rate would have improved to 24 out of 25 rather than 99 out of 100 - that's still 96%). But, my rejection rate is strictly dependant on whether they're attracted to me or not. It doesn't depend on my assessment of them. I still think 99% is not high enough, but we'll leave it for now. If I add in my own criteria, then my results get worse, not better. Let's say 40% of these random women lie within my reasonable age range (pretty close to it for my city). Let's say 50% of them are women that I find physically attractive. Let's say 50% of them are single (I think that's generous). Let's even say that 95% are women whose personalities don't completely turn me off. Now, let's look at the proportion of my approaches that result in finding someone who I could actually go on a date with. I'd be potentially compatible with 1% * 40% * 50% * 50% * 95% = 0.095%. That's just a little worse than 1 in 1000.

 

Of course, I'm really only approaching women I find physically attractive, and I can make a pretty good guess with respect to age range. I'm still left with 1% * 50% * 95% = 0.475% or 1 in 210. I still say the 1% is too high, though.

 

That might be a bit much on the "feel good" side, but I think if you aren't enjoying the process of meeting girls in and of itself, then I have trouble understanding how you would find the motivation to keep going. More than that, I have trouble understanding how you would make a good impression on anyone if you really hate doing it and think of every moment as a win-lose situation because I'm sure that energy would come off to the people you're meeting. I think doing whatever it is you do to get yourself out there (online dating, speed dating, clubs, approach random women in parks...), you should embrace the fact that there are benefits to be gained besides finding the one. I mean, of course, it takes work and it's not fun making yourself vulnerable, but I think you can't see it as making yourself vulnerable or as subjecting yourself to the judgement of women.

Yes, although I try to make a good impression and to come accross as a happy person, it is entirely possible that the women I meet sense that it's a facade. I have a little trouble believing in their psychic powers, though. As I indicated earlier, people have not infrequently made unprompted comments that I seem to be quite happy and relaxed. That being said, you're right - the repeated and consistent rejections are certainly demotivating. It's difficult to enjoy that. A question, though - what are the other benefits of "putting myself out there" aside from meeting someone I'm compatible with?

 

As for your women friends, have you asked them for suggestions, things you might be able to change when approaching women?

In fact, any suggestions I've been given have been much the same as the usual advice here - vague and often contradictory. Just relax and be yourself. You're attractive, you just need to find someone who likes you. Be persistent. Don't be too pushy.

 

In the end, I've yet to see any sign of interest from any woman.

[dr_styles]

Can we stop it with the numbers already

 

I pass by dozens and dozens of attractive women on my 20 minute walk to work every day.

...

In fact, any suggestions I've been given have been much the same as the usual advice here - vague and often contradictory. Just relax and be yourself. You're attractive, you just need to find someone who likes you. Be persistent. Don't be too pushy.

...

In the end, I've yet to see any sign of interest from any woman.

 

That's it lol. Too bad we can't follow each other around to see what we're really like

[GernBlanston]

Can we stop it with the numbers already

Good call! Agreed.

 

That's it lol. Too bad we can't follow each other around to see what we're really like

Nice! That's an interesting idea. I wonder if we'd be perceptive enough to see where each other could improve.

[GernBlanston]

Good way to look at it. It's too much of a black-and-white distinction right from the start. That's how I used to be. But now I've realized that the beginning is way too far to see if it's really black or really white - it's more of varying shades of gray. A few dates in, that gray should lighten (things are going well) or darken (things aren't going well). But you can't tell what direction it's going to go in from the start. Thus, like you said, it's very exhausting to try and classify women as "black" or "white" from the start, and a guy thinking this way probably misses out on a lot of chances to learn about dating, get some experience, see what he really wants in a woman, not necessarily what he thinks he wants.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. I thought the issue was that some of us aren't getting any dates at all, because women aren't interested in dating us. It's tricky to "learn about dating, get some experience" when we're not given any opportunity.

[Knight of Hope]

I'm not sure where you're going with this. I thought the issue was that some of us aren't getting any dates at all, because women aren't interested in dating us. It's tricky to "learn about dating, get some experience" when we're not given any opportunity.

 

Well I did say it was a two-way street. Single girls should at least give you the benefit of the doubt - they don't know you at all yet. If they did, then you'd get your opportunity. You'd at least be able to talk to them a bit, and then maybe one of them would give you the shot at a date.

 

Here's an alternative way to get experience - go out on "dates" (one-on-one hanging out) with your female friends. Sure, they're not romantic - but you'll learn how to act around women. I've had no dates (though that will only be true until tomorrow), but I do know how to act around women. I've had lots of female friends, and I have learned a ton from them.

[GernBlanston]

Here's an alternative way to get experience - go out on "dates" (one-on-one hanging out) with your female friends. Sure, they're not romantic - but you'll learn how to act around women. I've had no dates (though that will only be true until tomorrow), but I do know how to act around women. I've had lots of female friends, and I have learned a ton from them.

I'll learn how to be a platonic friend to women, yes. I've got a pretty good idea of how to do that, mainly because I do have platonic female friends with whom I spend time. Surely there's a difference between that and a "real date". Sexual chemistry, maybe?

[Luke Skywalker]

Okay, I guess from my point of view, I have trouble understanding a 100% rejection rate because I know many girls (friends, in fact) who would go for just about anyone because they're extremely lonely. They would at least take interest in you and talk to you for a bit (with romantic intent) if not end up as something more serious. So I feel like this is just a huge problem of allocation.

 

Yeah, I know this. But, here's another catch -- it's wrong to string along a girl you are not really attracted to otherwise I would already be in a relationship right now with a girl who loved me unconditionally that I had to break-up with because I felt it wasn't right for her.

 

A 100% rejection rate could be true if you are talking about women that you are attracted to, who have no kids, who you are compatable with otherwise it's a question about how low you want to go with your standards and if you want to string people along you are not really attracted to as an ego-boost.

[ind2]

You are making an awfully good argument as to why you are ineligible--why? Actually, scratch that. You have made no argument as to why you are ineligible (aside from looks), but plenty argument as to why it isn't working. Does it comfort you to think that your odds are 0.00475% (and to even think that that's an inflated figure)? Why are you digging your own grave? You realize that one of your lengthiest posts has been a statistical analysis as to why the odds are against you... right?

 

So in response to the quoted paragraph above, by a bit bland I meant just no compatibility, no interest. I think you should give yourself more credit and date women who intrigue you. The fact that she didn't reject you isn't grounds enough for you to be interested. I think you have to see that you are not a victim in this whole exchange, and it seems like you have stripped yourself entirely (or mentally at least) of any empowerment.

 

One thing that concerns me is that you seem to approach any woman (within age) as a "prospective." Not only is that really limiting to you, but it can come off as really offputting in indirect ways to the women you encounter in every day life and in dating situations. I don't know if this is necessarily true, but I get an air of it in your posts. Like your female friends are friends. Obviously they won't take interest in you that way, or else they wouldn't be friends. But there's something in the way you wrote about them that made it seem like at some point (or maybe even still) you had considered them as prospectives, but by their jurisdiction that never came to fruition.

 

As for benefits, I would imagine this is a really introspective experience. Even if you're only meeting people for perhaps half an hour at a time and never see them again, there's plenty of opportunity to learn from people from many walks of life. I guess it just depends on the type of person and conversationalist you are, but there is a lot you can extract from someone in that amount of time that can be pretty interesting. And that alone is enough for me to be satisfied... even if it didn't end up in friendship/dating. Unless you are only talking about the weather and inflation at the local grocery store, conversation and just joking around can be good enough. And at least you can be satisfied knowing that you are trying and not vegetating in front of the tv waiting for your life to start.

 

As advice your friends have given you, I mean really it's all about empowerment and confidence (and persistence). Sure, you can look up pick up lines and dish out the cash for expensive restaurants, but that isn't being genuine and would probably end up in relationship flatline even if it worked at first. In terms of advice, what else is there? What advice would you give yourself? Maybe that can help us help you...

 

I mean what gets me is that you seem to be more interested in getting women to be interested in you, than in the women themselves. Maybe this is a totally unfair assumption, and maybe because we're talking so pointedly about the topic it comes off that way, but please prove me otherwise. What do you think it would be like to be in a relationship? What would that look like?

 

I think first and foremost you are a human being. You have feelings. You are vulnerable. So why are you so hard on yourself? Why are you entrapping yourself with statistic and faulty logic (sound logic doesn't work if your premises are off)? I think there is a lot to unroot here, but talking about stats and the park scenario got this off track (which yes, is in part my fault). I feel like I have to be harsh with you to make you feel good about yourself. Because really this isn't about finding out what works to get women, or upping your game, but until then, just enjoy life! Are you happy with where you are in life right now?

 

The loneliness is hard, but someone will find you wonderful and enthralling and absolutely beautiful. But first you have to find yourself worthy of that, which you clearly don't. I used to think for the longest time that if I were in a loving relationship that would completely absolve me of all self esteem issues, but really, you loving yourself comes first. How is anyone else going to think you are worth loving if not even you believe that? You aren't going to find the validation you need by improving your "rejection rate."

 

I know I'm assuming a lot here. Maybe you are totally at peace with yourself and this is just the one missing part. So sorry if I'm totally off on that, but do, please, feel in the blanks.

[GernBlanston]

ind2, you make some excellent points. I hope that they make an impression on some of us that find themselves in my situation. I can't speak for the rest, but I'll try to address your questions from my perspective.

 

I think you should give yourself more credit and date women who intrigue you. The fact that she didn't reject you isn't grounds enough for you to be interested. I think you have to see that you are not a victim in this whole exchange, and it seems like you have stripped yourself entirely (or mentally at least) of any empowerment.

No, I suppose it's not enough for me to be interested. However, it is enough for me to want to know more about her and discover whether we are compatible. Of course there are other things that I'd look for in a woman, in addition to interest on her part. Strictly speaking, though, I'm not empowered. Regardless of whether I'd like to get to know her better, if she's not interested in me, then there isn't any potential there. I'm not able to date women who intrigue me, as there are no women that are willing to date me.

 

One thing that concerns me is that you seem to approach any woman (within age) as a "prospective." Not only is that really limiting to you, but it can come off as really offputting in indirect ways to the women you encounter in every day life and in dating situations. I don't know if this is necessarily true, but I get an air of it in your posts. Like your female friends are friends. Obviously they won't take interest in you that way, or else they wouldn't be friends. But there's something in the way you wrote about them that made it seem like at some point (or maybe even still) you had considered them as prospectives, but by their jurisdiction that never came to fruition.

Some of my female friends are women that I have had romantic interest in. Many are not. Some of them have rejected me outright. Some I haven't pursued because of circumstances and/or because it was clear that they didn't have romantic feelings for me. Maybe I misunderstand what you mean, but I wouldn't say that I see all women as prospects. However, if I do ask a woman on a date, then surely the thought is going through my mind that I might be looking for a relationship. Isn't that a natural perspective? Who wouldn't think that way?

 

In terms of advice, what else is there? What advice would you give yourself? Maybe that can help us help you...

I don't know. I have no advice for myself any longer. My advice would be to give up, but I can't seem to do even that. The desire for a partner seems to be instinctual, biological and pervasive. There have been times when I've tried to repress it, but that just doesn't work.

 

I mean what gets me is that you seem to be more interested in getting women to be interested in you, than in the women themselves. Maybe this is a totally unfair assumption, and maybe because we're talking so pointedly about the topic it comes off that way, but please prove me otherwise. What do you think it would be like to be in a relationship? What would that look like?

I think that impression is primarily because this is the topic at hand. I don't see women as a generic or as some faraway goal. Of course each woman is a person with passions, fears, disappointments, questions, hopes and memories in her own right. Yes, there are particular things I'd be looking for in a relationship - regarding how she would treat me, how I'll treat her and how we'd be together. Certainly I'm concerned about women being interested in me, since that seems to be a prerequisite for any potential relationship. Whatever I'd be looking for in a relationship doesn't really matter if no woman wants to be in a relationship with me to begin with. Does that make sense?

 

I know I'm assuming a lot here. Maybe you are totally at peace with yourself and this is just the one missing part. So sorry if I'm totally off on that, but do, please, feel in the blanks.

I do feel content with the rest of my life. I'm devoted to my family. I value my friends highly - they're generous with their time as I am with mine. I'm financially secure with a rewarding career that I enjoy. I have hobbies and other interests. Much of that is soured, though, since I won't have a partner with whom to enjoy these things and explore new ones (I've heard sex is supposed to be pretty good, right? I think it might be nice to have children some day. People say that can be worthwhile.). No woman finds me attractive. That means there's something they're looking for that I can't fulfill. I'm somehow deficient. I'm not worth being with. I don't deserve to be with someone. I probably don't even deserve to have friends. I'm an embarrassment to my family. That's the general direction my thoughts go.

 

You have to love yourself first. That's what they say. I haven't seen an effective method of doing that when experience tells you you're not worthwhile. Where do you even begin?

 

How is anyone else going to think you are worth loving if not even you believe that?

How can I believe that I'm worth loving if experience shows me that I'm not?

[Knight of Hope]

How can I believe that I'm worth loving if experience shows me that I'm not?

 

But your friends love you. Your family (probably) does, too. If those people (especially your friends) can love you in spite of your looks, then it stands to reason that at least one woman out there could love you in spite of your looks as well. You are using your past experience as an excuse (it is an excuse) to overgeneralize your situation. You consistently say that NO woman will EVER love you. That means that, out of the billions of eligible women, not a single one would ever want you. Honestly, you don't have the evidence to prove that particular claim. You've only convinced yourself it's true. The only thing you can prove is that you've had no luck so far.

 

You're right - it's a very strong instinctual desire to find that special someone. So if you prove it to me that not a single woman would ever want to date you, then I'll feel sorry for you. Until then, I stand firmly by this - everyone is lovable to at least one other person on this planet. Forget about your looks - to the right woman, they will not matter. The most attractive person in the world can look very ugly if they believe that they are. A very unattractive person can look very attractive if they show that they love themselves.

 

You just have to not let your desire for love consume your life, start loving yourself a little bit more, and stop convincing yourself that you're not lovable. Try that, work at it. It might take weeks, months, or years, but once you flip that mental switch you will do a lot better in the realm of romance.

[GernBlanston]

But your friends love you. Your family (probably) does, too.

Not in the way that a romantic partner would. There are different types of love. In Greek, there are even different words for them.

 

If those people (especially your friends) can love you in spite of your looks, then it stands to reason that at least one woman out there could love you in spite of your looks as well.

Again, it's not strictly about looks. It's about all the things that go into sexual attraction - looks, body language, voice tone, smell, charisma, etc. My friends aren't attracted to me. It doesn't stand to reason that at least one woman out there could find me attractive.

 

You are using your past experience as an excuse (it is an excuse) to overgeneralize your situation. You consistently say that NO woman will EVER love you. That means that, out of the billions of eligible women, not a single one would ever want you. Honestly, you don't have the evidence to prove that particular claim. You've only convinced yourself it's true. The only thing you can prove is that you've had no luck so far.

Fair enough. I may not have enough evidence yet to support my claim that no woman could find me attractive. At what point will I have sufficient evidence? It's nonsensical to require that I have to poll every single woman on the planet. You don't have to run an experiment an infinite number of times in order to draw a conclusion. At some point, you can reasonably state that the probability of an event occurring that's different from observed results is immaterial. How much evidence do I need? Maybe collecting that evidence would at least give me a realistic goal.

 

Until then, I stand firmly by this - everyone is lovable to at least one other person on this planet.

Now, that's a claim that's unsupportable by anything but wishful thinking. I'll ask you to prove your extraordinary claim, just as you've asked me to prove mine.

 

You just have to not let your desire for love consume your life, start loving yourself a little bit more, and stop convincing yourself that you're not lovable. Try that, work at it. It might take weeks, months, or years, but once you flip that mental switch you will do a lot better in the realm of romance.

Yes. Let's say I believe what you're saying is true. Whether that has anything to do with my attractiveness, I can see how that may make me happier. How do I start loving myself? How do I work at it? What's the process? I genuinely want to be able to do this, but I don't seem to know how. Any time this solution is suggested, the answer seems to be that you just have to feel it or you just have to start believing it. I don't think I even understand how that would work. How do you start believing in something opposite to your current belief? What do I do to start loving myself a little bit more?