Should I dispute my final grade?

[YabbaDabba]

(This turned out to be long--sorry. )

 

I just graduated from college and, in my final quarter, I decided to take a theology class as an elective. The class was taught by a so-called visiting professor from an ivy league university.

 

For my final grade, I received a C+ , which I have a huge problem with. I'm fine with getting grades that I deserve, but I just don't think I deserved a friggin' C in this class. The problem arose from two aspects of the class: a presentation and the professor's insane attendance policy.

 

For the presentations, we were required to do them in class and, afterward, we were supposed to post the exact same presentation (usually, a powerpoint) on the online forum that the professor used in class. The presentations had to be entirely finished on the day we presented, so posting them in the forum was rather pointless in my opinion, but a requirement, nonetheless.

 

I was in a group with two friends who happened to be in the same class with me. We presented our research in its entirety in class and the professor verbally told us that we'd done a good job; however, we were all busy with other projects so we neglected to post our presentation on the forum. We weren't really worried about it, though, because we'd done the actual presentation and we planned to post it by the end of the quarter.

 

Anyway, everything seemed fine until I went to the online forum to check my final grade and found that I had a 77% in the class. That didn't make any sense to me. His class is graded out of 1000 total 'points,' with attendance/participation and the presentation both being worth 100 points each.

 

Imagine my surprise when I found that he'd given me (and my two friends in the class) 25/100 points (or a 25% grade) for attendance/participation and a 50% (50/100 points) for our presentation. I was so confused because he hadn't said anything on the day we presented about our presentation being bad. And he's the type who would gladly point out the flaws in a presentation.

 

So, I emailed him to ask for an explanation.

 

He responded and said that in regards to our presentation, we posted it three weeks late, so he had to dock us points "out of fairness" to the rest of the class. This makes no sense to me because it's not like we had any extra time on our presentation--we compiled and presented everything in class on the day it was due. The only thing we were tardy on was posting the exact same presentation online--and he doesn't even give a concrete deadline for when to post presentations. All he says is to "post your results" online.

 

And, in reference to the 25/100 points he gave me for attendance, I asked the same question: why was I given what amounts to a failing grade? He replied that based on his attendance policy, he was being generous in giving me even those 25 points. His attendance policy is as follows: you're only allowed two excused absenses in the entire 10-week quarter. The only way those absenses are excused is if you bring either a doctor's note or a note from the dean of your school of study.

 

Ridiculous, right? It gets better.

 

Like I said, the class is based on 1000 possible points--attendance makes up 100 of those points, so it's 10% of your final grade. BUT if you have just one unexcused absense (meaning you don't bring in a doctor's note or a note from your dean) you lose your entire 100 points for attendance. Over the course of the quarter, I missed three classes. One was because of a school-related conference, the second was for a funeral, and the third was 'unexcused'--I was ill, but not ill enough to see a doctor, so tough luck for me.

 

My problem with this guy is that, in his reply to me, he made it seem like I barely showed up for class. I missed a total of three days, and he kept saying, "Your absenses affected your attendance grade"--he kept pluralizes "absenses" like I only showed up every other week or something, which is hardly the case. Basically, missing one class means I lose ALL of my points for attendance. So, for argument's sake, let's just say that I went to every single class for the entire quarter but, on the very last class day, I got a flat tire so I couldn't get to class. That would be unexcused and I'd lose 10% of my final grade--if I'd otherwise earned an A-, that one missed class would knock me down to a B-.

 

This just seems ridiculous to me.

 

So, yeah, that's my problem with the grade he gave me. I missed one class and lost 75 points of my attendance grade. Then, because I posted my presentation late--despite the fact that the actual presentation was done on time--I lost another 50 points from the presentation grade. In total, I lost 125 points off the 1000 point grading scale. I wasn't expecting an A in the class, but the C+ he gave me just seems incredibly unfair.

 

I've earned 770 points according to him. Personally, I think I deserved an A- on my presentation (so, 90 points), but if he had to dock me, he could have gone with a more reasonable 25 point deduction, rather than giving me 50 points, which is basically an F. And, I just think his entire attendance policy is stupid, but if he's going to be a stickler, I at least deserve a 75% there, as well.

 

Basically, I feel like I should be given (at the least) another 75 points. That would bring me up to a B- on his grade scale. I was expecting to earn a B+ in the class, but I can compromise.

 

Anyway--after laying out that long-winded explanation, I just want to know if it sounds like it's worth it to go through the process of disputing the grade?

Mostly, I want to know if it seems like I'm just being whiny. I really feel like he's been arbitrary and unfair, but I could definitely be biased.

 

Thanks.

[Ellie2006]

Congrats on graduating!

 

Anyways, just to offer my two cents: I think you can dispute it, but I dont think it'll do much good as I think what your prof said has merit.

 

RE: the late posting of the presentation -- I have my students post their presentations too; it's not bc I want to create unnecessary work for my students but mainly because I want that information available for the rest of the class. I suspect your prof had a similar reason. Because it was a requirement that all students were aware of from Day 1, the prof would be justified for taking points off for the late posting.

And a verbal "good job" doesn't necessarily mean that he was pleased with the content of the presentation.

 

 

RE: Attendance -- I am not quite sure I understand the 1000 pts system but from my understanding you're allowed 3 absenses (two excused + one unexcused) over a 10 week period without the absenses working against you.

 

I am not sure if you had classes two days a week or once a week BUT regardless, I think the attendance policy is pretty standard.

 

Anyways, it sounds like you had two excused absenses -- one for the funeral and one for the school-related conference (for these to be considered excused, you should have submitted a note from the dean or your department chair) and one unexcused absense -- the one time you were sick.

 

SO it sounds like you shouldnt get points docked for the absenses -- unless the two excused absenses were counted as unexcused absenses -- i.e. you did not submit documentation??

 

I dont know.

 

What about exams and class participation? Did those count at all for the final grade?

 

At the end of the day, these kind of cases with nebulous circumstances, the univ. usually sides with the prof.; and IF this guy was some hotshot prof. from an Ivy League school, who probably came with the school's invitation, I dont think it's worth your time to dispute it.

 

Just a thought.

[YabbaDabba]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

 

Here's the thing: I understand that he wanted us to post our presentations so they'd be available for the rest of the class. I understand and completely admit that we posted our presentation late. My problem with the failing grade us for the presentation was that he said he did so "out of fairness" to the rest of the class. There weren't any specified deadlines for posting presentations. All he said was that they had to be posted online. And, us posting our presentation late was in no way unfair to anyone else in class. We didn't get time to do any extra work. I just think he's being really arbitary here. If he was going to dock us points, he could have at least given me a more valid reason.

 

We also posted our peer evaluations late (for the same presentation) and he gave us full credit for that. And we posted our final papers two weeks after the "suggested deadline" and he didn't dock us there, either. I know it sounds like we were slackers, but he was pretty open-ended about deadlines in general. Most of his assignments were given throughout the quarter, but just had to be completed by the end of the course. He was just never clear about what had a concrete deadline and what didn't. There was almost no consistency, really.

 

As for attendance, his policy is absolutely not standard. His policy basically says that if you miss one class and it's not a medical/family emergency or school-related, you lose 10% of your final grade.

 

I'm sorry, but one missed class just doesn't seem like it should constitute me losing 10% of my final grade. And I did tell him about both the conference and the funeral. I verbally informed him about the conference, then asked him via email if I could have the dean of my dept. email him to confirm the conference was school related. My professor responded and said that I didn't have to bring in documentation, or have the dean email him. Yet another instance where he didn't stick to his own policies.

 

I just think this whole situation sucks. I've graduated, I'm moving, he's a visiting professor and all of the class submissions were done online--and that site has now been cleared for intersession classes.

 

I'm just so irritated. I've otherwise pulled in As and A minuses for my final year of college, and now I have a C+ in my last quarter. Like I said, I didn't expect an A in his class and I'm fine with that, but I hate getting grades that I don't deserve.

 

And I definitely don't deserve a C.

[Ellie2006]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Our posting our presentation late was in no way unfair to anyone else in class. We didn't get time to do any extra work. I just think he's being really arbitary here.

 

Yeah, I dont know what to tell you. I just had one thing to add: I dont think he meant "unfair" because posting the presentation late meant you hypothetically had extra time to do extra work BUT it'd be "unfair" to those people who took the time to post their presentations on time??

 

I agree with you about him needing to be consistent in what he construes as "late" work.

 

[Added: And it's hard for profs too -- trying to be consistent and flexible at the same time...]

[southerngirl]

Congratulations! I wanted to throw in my two cents and I am sure this is not what you want to hear.

 

While I'm sure your disappointed in your grades, I think that it is fair. Just think, had you turned in your report (by uploading it on the www as requested) on time you would have gotten a B for the class.

 

If college is meant to prepare you for your chosen career field and the real world, then they must expect professionalism from you. Especially if you are in your graduation year.

 

If your boss were to tell you that you had to upload a report, and even though you felt it was a stupid request you would have to do it. If you did not you could find yourself out of a job, no matter how well qualified you might be. Same goes with attendance. I worked at a job that fired someone on the 3rd unexcused absense in any six month period. PERIOD. You think thats rough? I thought so too when they fired me.

[thejigsup]

I attended a West Coast Ivy League school. (Kids from Harvard and Yale wintered there). And yes, what you are describing sounds about right. Ivy League schools demand a lot! I knew that going in and acted accordingly. I never had a presentation I DIDN'T have to post online. I just assumed the due date was the same for both of them. We had a visiting prof from UCLA. God he was easy!!! Private schools are in a league of their own. It's insane sometimes, but worth it. I have no problem landing jobs. Employers see where I went for my B. A. and I automatically have an interview. When you spend several years playing by the hard-nose rules, you make a smoother transition into what ever job you get. You're prepared.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

If you fight it, I doubt that you will win considering that he is a visiting ivy league professor. I really don't think you have much of a case with the posting online late...you knew very well it had to be posted online but you did delay it when it wouldn't have been a problem to just post it within a day or two of the presentation. When professors apply for research grants, there are a million hoops they have to jump through...many of them very silly...but they still have to follow all the rules or else their application will be thrown out. So take this as a learning experience that sometimes we may not understand why someone is being picky...but if you want the grade or the grant or whatever, you have to play by their rules. The attendance thing seems rather extreme. I understand that they have to put their foot down to make sure people do indeed show up to class..but it is not like you took that many days. People do get sick and they should not be expected to come to class if they are going to infect everyone else.

[YabbaDabba]

Thanks for the reply, but I have to disagree with you about the attendance issue. As much as people try to say that college prepares you for the workplace, in all honesty, it's just not the same.

 

When you have a job, that's it--you do your work and you go home (hopefully) at the end of the day.

 

With college, I was a full-time student, working a part-time job, volunteering and interning.

 

Now, I'll agree that if my boss asked me to turn in a report, even if it was pointless, I'd do it on-time--but, if my boss said, "Just turn it in within the next three weeks" and I turned it in during the final week, how is it fair that I'm penalized for that? On top of that, would it make sense for my boss to then say, "Well, everyone else turned their presentation in during the first week, so tough luck."

 

Secondly, in reference to my attendance, you're referencing unexcused absenses in the work place. An entirely different ball field.

 

I was gone for valid reasons, then missed one day and got screwed over.

 

I agree that the workplace is tough and often unfair, but if something similar had happened on the job, I'd most likely address it, too.

[CatsMeeoow]

You know in 10 years down the road this class and this fiasco will mean nothing to you. You got your grade - you got your degree (unless things have changed dramatically since I was in school) nowhere on your diploma is your GPA listed!

 

GPA's are only great when you apply for that first job - because well you basically lack experience and you have to show off something... but when that second job rolls around NO ONE is looking at your GPA.

 

Bottom line is most profs would have given you a failing grade if you did not meet a deadline. I would say college prepares you to multi-task and meet deadlines.... I think it's a wake up call to the real world... what if this had been a business? You would have lost the deal if you had a smooth presentation but failed to submit your offer in writing.

 

I do sympathize with - I too felt unfairly graded before but again... I just let it go... I have a very successful career and makes lots of dough... no one has ever questioned what I got graded on in school.

 

Keep moving forward!!!!

 

Peace and love!

[Crazyaboutdogs]

You know in 10 years down the road this class and this fiasco will mean nothing to you.

 

Exactly...I had a class which I felt I had been unfairly graded but the professor wouldn't budge. In the grand scheme of my life, it made no difference at all.

[luvs2kayak]

I am a college professor (and I teach public speaking, coincidentally), and I would suggest you send a polite, well-written email to your prof, laying out your perspective in a persuasive manner. When students approach me respectfully, I've been known to revisit grades and sometimes the student will receive a higher grade. But the moment I feel they're more interested in the grade than in the learning, it really turns me off. So be careful how you write. I think you'll feel you've done all you could do if you send him something in writing. Good luck... you'll never know until you try.

[rikka]

I'll add my two cents in here.

 

I sat on a grade arbitration panel for a couple of years in University. If you dispute this, I don't think you are going to have much luck. Consistent or not, he laid out his policies from the get go and most likely has a record of his grading scheme. The fact that he is a visiting lecturer from a prestigious institution - well that definitely stacks against you.

 

Like others have said, ultimately the grade sucks - but in the grand scheme it means nothing. I'd let it go and move on with your life.

 

Congrats on graduating, best wishes for the future.

[CarnelianButterfly]

The late posting deserved to be marked down because you failed to follow the directions of the assignment. It maybe that you didn't work on it during that time, but how is he to know? That is why in fairness to the class it is only right that you be docked. I know many profs that wouldn't accept late work at all, I'm talking you come to class late by 10 minutes and its not accepted.

 

I happen to think making attendance required is a very smart thing to do. Its not that hard to go to class, but a lot of students don't. It makes you responsible for showing up, which is what happens in the real world.

[CaptainPlanet]

Challenge it you've got nothing to lose and people understand how terrible some teachers can be at University. They're inconsistent places you should at least try to oppose the grade. I hope you do oppose it because lecturers have been terrible teachers for a long time now, attendance is mostly about their own self importance and funding. Just put interactive web pages online, and use lecturers for consultation and interactive class room time.

[YabbaDabba]

The late posting deserved to be marked down because you failed to follow the directions of the assignment. It maybe that you didn't work on it during that time, but how is he to know? That is why in fairness to the class it is only right that you be docked. I know many profs that wouldn't accept late work at all, I'm talking you come to class late by 10 minutes and its not accepted.

 

I happen to think making attendance required is a very smart thing to do. Its not that hard to go to class, but a lot of students don't. It makes you responsible for showing up, which is what happens in the real world.

 

As I've said, I didn't fail to follow the directions of the assignment. I did the presentation as he assigned it. All he said about posting was that it needed to be done; there was never a concrete deadline on when the presentations needed to be posted. If there had been, I would've posted it within the time-frame he specified--only he didn't specify one.

 

And, like I've said, I don't have a problem with him docking points on the so-called late presentation or the attendance--lots of professors at my school dock points for the same things--I just feel that he's gone entirely overboard. He basically failed me for my presentation and attendance when he could have simply docked me half as many points, lowering my grade by 1/2 (from a B+ to a B) rather than a full grade.

 

I am a college professor (and I teach public speaking, coincidentally), and I would suggest you send a polite, well-written email to your prof, laying out your perspective in a persuasive manner. When students approach me respectfully, I've been known to revisit grades and sometimes the student will receive a higher grade. But the moment I feel they're more interested in the grade than in the learning, it really turns me off. So be careful how you write. I think you'll feel you've done all you could do if you send him something in writing. Good luck... you'll never know until you try.

 

I've already done this--when I asked him for clarification on my grade. I'm considering whether I want to ask him to change the grade--from his tone in his reply, he didn't seem too conciliatory. We'll see, though.

 

Exactly...I had a class which I felt I had been unfairly graded but the professor wouldn't budge. In the grand scheme of my life, it made no difference at all.

 

Normally, I'd agree with this, but I'm planning on going to graduate school in the next year or two. Although future employers don't look at my GPA, graduate programs do. With a C+ on my transcript, in the final quarter of my college career, it just looks like I got lazy, which isn't the case. For the year, I earned 5 A's, one B and now, a C. (I also received internship credit for my final two quarters).

 

In any other situation, I'd just suck it up, but grad schools look at your GPA for your last two years of school. Junior year wasn't bad, but it wasn't a shining academic time, either. Senior year was supposed to redeem that for me.

 

On top of that, I'm applying to a specialized field and the schools that offer my program--well, in the states/cities that I'm willing to live in--are all top 15 schools.

 

So, even if my GPA doesn't matter to employers, it definitely matters to the selective grad school programs I'm hoping to get into.

[rikka]

was this an elective course or a requisite?

[YabbaDabba]

was this an elective course or a requisite?

 

An elective. I could've graduate almost a year early, but decided to stick around "for the experience."

 

It's ironic, really.

[rikka]

It is funny in that not so funny way.

 

Though it will still count towards your GPA the grade itself will not be looked at so intensely since it was an elective. In my graduate program the advisers were primarily concerned with your requisite courses. There were two "averages" considered. You had to have a base overall average to apply and then applicants were selected based off of performance in required courses (and other application factors).

 

It really sucks (especially since it should have been an interesting learning experience), but from my experience I don't think you will get anywhere by challenging the grade and you could get caught up in the endless "red-tape" involved in the process. I do wish you good luck. I hope your grad school experience is better than mine.

[YabbaDabba]

It is funny in that not so funny way.

 

Though it will still count towards your GPA the grade itself will not be looked at so intensely since it was an elective. In my graduate program the advisers were primarily concerned with your requisite courses. There were two "averages" considered. You had to have a base overall average to apply and then applicants were selected based off of performance in required courses (and other application factors).

 

It really sucks (especially since it should have been an interesting learning experience), but from my experience I don't think you will get anywhere by challenging the grade and you could get caught up in the endless "red-tape" involved in the process. I do wish you good luck. I hope your grad school experience is better than mine.

 

 

Well, let's hope so. I'm just paranoid. I planning on getting my masters in library science. And, as most people know, librarians should know just a little bit about everything--I've got the curiosity, love of learning and broad interests down. I'm just a little worried that they'll focus on everything since it's a library science program.

 

I just wish my junior year grades were better--I wouldn't be so stressed about this C is they were better. They're not terrible, but they're not great, either. The school that I really want into has a 50% acceptance rate, so I might be out of luck here.

[Ellie2006]

As you probably know, when graduate programs make their selections for M.A./Ph.D candidates, they don't simply look at the GPA but an array of other elements -- like your GRE scores, your statement of purpose, your recommendation letters, writing sample, etc.

 

A well-written and thoughtful s.o.p would easily offset your GPA, which doesnt sound so bad to begin with.

 

Good luck on the applications!

[Crazyaboutdogs]

Challenge it you've got nothing to lose and people understand how terrible some teachers can be at University. They're inconsistent places you should at least try to oppose the grade. I hope you do oppose it because lecturers have been terrible teachers for a long time now, attendance is mostly about their own self importance and funding. Just put interactive web pages online, and use lecturers for consultation and interactive class room time.

 

 

I agree with your post, however, I would like to say something about attendance. While it is true there is a certain amount of self-importance regarding attendance (I am not so sure about the funding...the professor gets paid even if students skip class) there is also the politeness aspect of attendance. A professor works hard preparing lectures and it would not be very pleasant if, after all that work, only a handful of people attend the lecture. Professors are human and want to have their hard work appreciated, just like everyone else.

[Batya33]

Thanks for the reply, but I have to disagree with you about the attendance issue. As much as people try to say that college prepares you for the workplace, in all honesty, it's just not the same.

 

When you have a job, that's it--you do your work and you go home (hopefully) at the end of the day.

 

With college, I was a full-time student, working a part-time job, volunteering and interning. ]

 

Um, I've almost never gone home at 5pm since I started my second career in the mid 1990s, I've almost never had a free weekend, and I've also been volunteering regularly for the last 5 years. As far as my first career - teaching - I went home at 4PM but as a new teacher I very often worked on lesson plans evenings and weekends. Perhaps you're correct about 9 to 5'ers. Very few of my friends are or ever have been (and those that are work full time out of the home in the evenings with their children). So, please don't go there about how it's easier in the working world.

I went to several years of post high school education (college and grad school) - I also worked part time, worked my tail off, did volunteer work. So, I can relate I just wanted to make sure you could relate.

 

I agree with COD and Southerngirl - and in particular the "posting late" really hit home for me because I've had bosses like that and I have expected similar tasks from my staff - similar in that to me the timeliness affected my work/plans, etc and I expected since that it was a small thing to ask - the actual task was small, timeliness was important. When someone can't be timely for that, I sometimes have some concerns about their reliability for bigger projects. Not a black and white issue but when I am looking to staff a project that just might effect who I choose.

 

I don't think the grade will be a dealbreaker for the reasons posted but be careful, if asked, not to criticize the professor's policies and procedures - you never know who's best friend, spouse or family member is a professor, for example.

 

good luck!

[YabbaDabba]

YabbaDabba - I'm going to begin a Master's program in Library Science this fall. I applied to four schools and got into all four. Which school are you worried about? What is your GPA? Feel free to PM me; I might be able to give you some insight.

 

Hi there.

 

What an odd coincidence--from ranting about a professor to a fellow future librarian.

 

Anyway--my overall GPA is a 3.27 (like I said, my first three years of college were kinda mediocre).

 

I'm planning to apply to four schools. Right now, I'm definitely applying to the University of Washington; probably applying to Urbana-Champaign; thinking about McGill (in Montreal) and...well, I'm still deciding on the fourth school.

 

I'd be really interested in hearing about your experiences, especially which schools you applied to.

[YabbaDabba]

Um, I'm not sure where I supposedly said the working world is "easier" than being in college. I'm not naive--I know that both are difficult. My point is that they're not as comparable as many people want to believe. Sure, college prepares you for the workplace--in theory--but drawing black-and-white comparisons between the two is just a fallacy, in my opinion.

 

And, I'm saying this yet again, and for the final time--I was not late on posting my assignment. It's somewhat impossible to be "late" on a deadline that is non-existent. It's my fault for saying I posted late, but what I meant what this: the professor never gave a deadline for posting the presentation. He only said that it needed to be posted. With 80% of the other assignments in his class, he was very lax and allowed us to turn them in whenever we wanted as long as it was done by the end of the quarter.

 

The majority of the class, for convenience sake, posted their presentations on the same day they presented. Me and my group, on the other hand, took our professor's word to heart and assumed that as long as the presentation was posted by the end of the quarter, it would be fine.

 

However, we were penalized because we went against the norm of posting the day of (or very soon after) the actual in-class presentation.

 

I'm not being spoiled or petulant--if this was a matter of me missing a deadline, I wouldn't be angry over it. I take full responsibility for academic mistakes that I make. However, in this case, the only mistake we made was becoming too comfortable in regards to our professor's inconsistent laxity.

[Batya33]

That is not how I read your original post and my post responded to your claim that people in the working world "go home at the end of the (business) day" while you also work and do volunteer work. I just wanted to point out how cringeworthy your statement was to me - and inaccurate for me and for most of the career people I know. I never said there is no comparison but your original post is a good comparison - meeting deadlines is just as important in the working world, if not more.

 

If you are now saying that the prof didn't have a deadline by which to post the presentation, you can approach him on that. As far as the absenses, if he stated that in the beginning of the term, you were forewarned.

 

good luck.

 

edited to add - I would think that if his requirement was to "post it after" three weeks later is not "after" by any stretch of that definition. For example, I asked my assistant to update a chart of when certain people returned my calls and what they said, in preparation for a report I was preparing for my boss - I sent him e-mails each time someone responded with the substance of the response. I prepared the report about three weeks (same time frame as your example) after I asked my assistant to update the chart and sent out the report. Turned out my assistant had not yet updated the chart so my report was, unknown to me at the time, incorrect. It was embarrassing when I found out. I think I had every right to expect that the updating would happen reasonably promptly, and if it was that late that he would have warned me that he hadn't had time to update it.