Hear Ye Men: Yet another blasted thread about hair removal "down there"

[tiredofvampires]

(As I am quite disarmed at this hour, myself, though it's not quite as dire as your hour.)

 

*sniff sniff*...I hope that's not a gender war I smell!...

 

Now hold on a sec, Daddy-o (may I call you that? Har har): whoever would imagine that combing one's tresses is a specifically "male-spawned" directive? Monkeys "groom" one another for nits, and this behavior has persisted up through the species. It is not a female or male thing to comb one's hair, it is more of an imperative in order to distribute the oils, stimulate the scalp's epithelial cell layer (not to mention blood supply), and most importantly to prevent the snarls that could later turn into tearing and matting. Also, I do see that as a rather hygeinic matter, having sniffed and whiffed at oh-so many Rasta heads. Sweat, dirt, pollution and dead skin cells get trapped in hair, and unwashed and uncombed to me, that is not then clean. And cleanliness is still on my list of to-do bodily practices. I see this as a gender-neutral directive. And the longer the hair, the more diligent the practice required. Also, a nicely combed mane, whether in a male (num num!) or a female makes for just a more lustrous finish, so yes, this is an aesthetic call but one I would apply to either gender, and to any length of hair.

 

As for perfumes and make-up, yes, I admit, I do have some of those ecoutrements. But once again, I believe those have rather cross-gender applicability -- men wear cologne (which I am rather torn about), and scents are universally appreciated. So scenting oneself, to complement one's pheromones, is again not a uniquely female thing to do. Having said that, I use scents very particularly and also feel that it is a nice "touch" once in a while, but don't douse myself with it every day to be feminine. Likewise, I don't expect or desire for a man to slosh it on at every occasion either. A lot must be said for the pheremones we naturally exude, and not completely obliterating them with Chanel or Brut. I know next to nothing about fine perfumes, perhaps for this reason, and perhaps a little for the cost factor, but there was a thread some time ago about favorite scents, and I felt pitifully out of the loop with my suggestions of little bottles of jasmine and musk oil from the health food store next to big names like Givenchy. I do love a lovely scent, and find them irresistible, but for the same reason I find a flower irresistible. And the flower I like to lean down and smell has nothing to do with patriarchal indoctrination, but rather just an olfactory hankering. If I can bottle it and put it behind my ear and feel especially aromatic, it gives me such a langourous feeling, such a sublime feeling, that should it draw kisses to me over the course of the evening, it will have done its job for me in all ways, though it began with my own sensory high.

 

Make-up. Okay. You will find this outlandish, but I actually feel sorry for men that they can't wear it much and get away with it, outside of the obvious fringe or the terribly metrosexual (which does occur as well, and I'm not a big fan.) I see makeup as a tool for enhancement of features, as known for ages by the rules of stage performance for both men and women. Why this has not caught on in daily life for men absolutely befuddles me, but I do believe that it should be a man's god-given right to bring out his eyes with a little liner; or at very least, use foundation to cover a blemish. I think facial products are now appearing for men, which is refreshing for me to see, though I have to say it seems that MEN are the ones that have elected not to engage in this type of preening more than it is a function of men asking women to engage in it. Whether it is for aversion, laziness or to use a less-charged word, low-maintenance-ness as a preferred modus operandi, men have opted out of make-up -- leaving women to enjoy the fruits of such self-pampering and creative enjoyment. And that I see as much of a self-imposed vanity, because as I've observed, the vast majority of men do not care for the look of pronounced makeup anyway.

 

Having said so though...would you like a touch of lipcolor? I have a sparkly one that might be just your shade (though it's quite hard to tell from a driver's license photo)...?

[tiredofvampires]

Oh yes, and one more thing -- if you saw my photo in earnest, you have seen that I had no makeup on, on that very average day?

[ProtestTheHero]

When I dated my ex, she shaved and I kept myself pretty damn neat as well.

 

Would I stop dating a girl with a bush? Probably not, but I'd be a little less enthusiastic due to hoping beyond hope that she wouldn't ask for oral with that going on.

 

Women have just as many expectations of men physically, so I don't understand how anyone can play the woe is me card in any sort of gender-specific aesthetic issue.

[1guygirl]

on a fresh new day i ask myself this...if women of all ages didnt feel like men would be grossed out by pubic hair...then would we even bother??? (i mean this in the terms of feeling sexy and not cos you do sports so you shave or trim to avoid the tuft getting caught!)

 

i asked my lesbian friend - 'pubic hair...shaved/waxed or untouched or even trimmed?? and she said shaven cos pubic hair was eeeewwwwwww

 

no i know she meant round the labia/vulva and was ok bout a patch on the pubic bone, but its like O-M-G ...its not just men who think this. then i thought is it any wonder that labia plasties are on the increase because girls shaving, more is exposed and then when some men (i say men lightly) are grossed out by pubes, then they have something else to focus on ie the many shapes and sizes and colours of labia, and of course, they have prob had images of all the girls with neat lil lady gardens (often through surgery) and are again ' grossed out' by that

 

i mean is that another thing ???

 

it gets quite worrying tbh

[1guygirl]

well unfortunately some women dont have that healthy attitude you show towards themselves or their bodies and do feel pressured, in order to feel sexy, not the women doing it regardless of wether they had a bf or not. its not a burning bra issue just the attitudes to both male and female body hair..but its just the OP was on about mens attitudes on this.

 

mind id rather burn my bra than singe my m!nge

[ghost69]

women who do that ^ have more issues than just shaving their cood for their bf's or husbands satisfaction... i dont know about men on this though but i doubt they(sane ones at least) demand their girl shave for him even if she doesnt want to.... maybe we should start a mate thread about how we feel about how men should keep their junk.. and if its because of a womans preference or their own. . .

 

i shave cause i think it's gross. i have yet to have a girl complain about it. i expect the same. i won't date a bush. even as a kid climbing around in bushes, i didn't want the branches all up in my mouth. feels nasty on the hands too. *shivers*

[melrich]

This is a typical answer, the norm and the rule, not the exception when this topic arises. I cannot see this attitude co-existing with wanting to bed someone who is unshaven, and thereforeeee I conclude that I haven't overstated anything.

 

Well I think on this one if you were shown a rat you would see a mouse and I think you've developed a zealots myopia.

 

So I am bowing out. Just for the record, where we started on this was my rejection of your statement that MANY men were dumping or kicking women out of bed because they were unshaven (NOT TRIMMED...UNSHAVEN).

 

There are now three threads on this, all approaching 100 posts. We have found two males who could possibly fit into your description of the epidemic, (one of them I believe is OK with neatly trimmed).

 

But do you know what is most interesting? There has not been one woman who has come and posted to say that they were dumped by a man because they were unshaven, kicked out of bed by a man because they were unshaven, or even pressured directly by a man to shave.

 

I understand your disgust with people who turn their noses up at the state of pubic hair grooming.....and yes, many people comment adversly on "shaven",.... "that is just for s l u t s who want to look like pre-pubescent girls" ...(which makes me feel great about my wife for example and is the sentiment expressed that first prompted me to respond to these threads in the first place) ....but that really was never the point I disagreed with you on.

[tiredofvampires]

Well I think on this one if you were shown a rat you would see a mouse and I think you've developed a zealots myopia.

 

and yes, many people comment adversly on "shaven",.... "that is just for s l u t s who want to look like pre-pubescent girls" ...(which makes me feel great about my wife for example and is the sentiment expressed that first prompted me to respond to these threads in the first place)

 

I understood that this was probably your underlying reason for posting about this so passionately. And which is why I early on said this has nothing to do with my taking aim at your wife's personal preferences or judging them. I do not judge individuals -- I am more interested in critiqing trends, social perceptions and collective ideas, because in the past they have affected many individuals adversely. Some are unharmed, other ARE, and I have been in the latter category. There is only one thing I have over you in this argument, and ONLY one -- I am a woman, and I have felt pressures that I am sure as a sympathetic man you can understand, but you have never felt them. If you review the comments by women on this thread and the other, you will see varying degrees of resentment, anger, ambivalence, frustration and insecurity expressed around this, as in many body issues and notions that are perpetrated out there -- whoever's doing the perpetrating. My aim is not to condemn people, but to shine a light on skewed -- as I see it, attitudes. Such as "I won't date a bush." (see post above your last). That is not a singlular man making a singular statment. It is representative of a larger view, only this particular poster's forte is stating things less roundaboutly than others. I see ENA as a general reflection of the pulse that is generally going on out in the world, and the sampling here of people who have labelled pubic hair either prohibitively disgusting or in some way significantly negative is in the majority. So it is not my opinion that the pressure here exists, if you are the type at all to be vulnerable to peer pressure. I am only responding to what I read and see. Please be fair.

 

It is truly unfortunate that what has come out of this is you've characterized me as a "myopic zealot."

 

It is clear that we have both come EQUALLY to this FRIENDLY (as I hope you feel it to be? as I have nothing but good feelings for you, melrich, in your sage advice and discriminating intellect) debate with an emotional investment. I have felt pressured by the very negative comments that this topic brings, because I don't want to have my body parts labelled as that repellant. I think you can understand, can't you? And I also see that you have had a stake in defending, by proxy, the choices your life partner has made. I think we both have strong feelings that are driving this. So let's please say that this has been equally zealous -- not myopic, and not about "zealots", but two posters that took a single spot in a thread to battle. You are the one who threw down the gauntlet, not I. I said that when it comes to the point that someone doesn't want to date or sleep with someone because they see only pubic hair and not the person, something is drastically wrong. You seem to agree with this, and kudos to you for that!! But you challenged me to find 3 posters who fit that mindset, and I have done my best to show you examples of what I think qualify. If you don't agree with my examples, or you now think 2 or 3 (I believe it's 3, you believe it's 2, but in either case I've met 2/3 of this statistically insignificant test group size) is not enough of a research sample after all, I would concede that I have not had the time to go through all the posts I could to gather a dozen more and so, thus I surrender on that point. I cannot prove something I have not brought multitudes of examples on with the exact wording you demand. But you did not ask for multitudes, and I believe I've provided very close to the requisite sampling you asked for. Now when I show you my "evidence", you say I'm being a zealot. Ok. I was speaking as a rather disgruntled and somewhat dismayed poster on this topic and had no intention of having to try to prove anything. You can believe that or not. It just organically arose because you as well as I happen to have charged emotions around this. I respect and understand yours. I hope you respect and understand mine. Taking it up my position zealously when provoked does not make me "A zealot."

 

And in the end, I do believe that if I did not have so much physical discomfort with the practice, I might have taken it up myself before. It's certainly not for a lack of trying. In fact, I am a moderate in the sense that I do shave enough to be presentable at any (American) beach and not be looked at as though I were the Yeti. But I have abandoned the idea of doing it "all the way" or even "most of the way" and I would be perfectly happy if everyone just agreed it was a preference, like long hair or short hair on a woman's head. You don't see any men saying long hair or short hair on a woman is "gross", and usually it's not a dealbreaker. But there is much more furor over the state of a woman's private grooming an all the negative commentary I see bears it out.

 

Let's say you win. Not many men would literally walk out of the bedroom. But many would try to work past their disgust? No cigar.

[tiredofvampires]

But do you know what is most interesting? There has not been one woman who has come and posted to say that they were dumped by a man because they were unshaven, kicked out of bed by a man because they were unshaven, or even pressured directly by a man to shave.

 

I agree. And it's a good point. But it might be a reflection of the fact that women on here, as evidenced by the female population posting say they shave (when we say shave, by the way, I don't necessarily mean bald, I mean shaving the labia, or shaving large tracts of their pubic hair and grooming it down to astroturf so that MOST OF THE HAIR IS GONE. Kind of late in the game to propose what constitutes "shaving" but oh well.)

 

I also would like to ask ghost out at this point and see if I can't report back that I was kicked out of the sack pronto. Maybe even a few of his buddies would be game. Then I could indeed report back. LOL. (thanks for being a good sport, ghosty)

 

In the end, I respect the choice of the individual as pretty sacred and I'm a relatively nonjudgmental person. So I get frankly pissed when I feel so harshly judged. (Edit: Btw, I NEVER referred to or thought of women who choose to shave as S L U T S, so hopefully you aren't attributing that to me by association.)

 

I respectfully bow out if you do, and this has been good. Shake?

[melrich]

It is truly unfortunate that what has come out of this is you've characterized me as a "myopic zealot."

 

On this issue.

 

I am a woman, and I have felt pressures that I am sure as a sympathetic man you can understand, but you have never felt them. If you review the comments by women on this thread and the other, you will see varying degrees of resentment, anger, ambivalence, frustration and insecurity expressed around this, as in many body issues and notions that are perpetrated out there

 

I agree you have pressures. It's not my point for God's sake. PLEASE my point is simple. Men are not ditching women because they don't shave.

 

PLEASE....in addition to these 3 threads where not one woman has claimed to have been dumped/walked out on because of this, in 5 years on this site I've never seen a post along the lines of.."boyfriend leaving me because of hairy....".........and if it's not here it's not anywhere.

 

I am not talking about subliminal pressure. I get YOU feel that. I am talking about what I said was an overstatement that relationships are ending because of this issue.

 

And again, go back over the recent 4 threads on this. BY FAR THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE SAYING HAIRY IS GROSS ARE WOMEN. BY FAR. AT LEAST TWO TO ONE.

 

Not many men would literally walk out of the bedroom.

 

Thank you.

[melrich]

Shake?

 

Oh yes of course.

[Nixee]

 

But do you know what is most interesting? There has not been one woman who has come and posted to say that they were dumped by a man because they were unshaven, kicked out of bed by a man because they were unshaven, or even pressured directly by a man to shave.

 

 

Though I was not broken up with over it, nor kicked out of bed... my ex definitely did put the pressure on. I really don't think it is all that uncommon for a man to put this kind of pressure on a woman nowadays, either subtley or very directly, and I think that is exactly why a few women here get their feathers so ruffled over the issue.

 

It is extremely hurtful to be in what you believe to be a loving "unconditional" relationship with someone, only to find out down the line that they are picking flaws with you... particularly physical ones... and making issues out of them.

 

Those of us who have dated the narcissistic type will probably understand this better than anyone.

 

As I stated in the previous thread on shaving, I am not opposed to it, but for me it cannot be a control issue or an ultimatum. I like to be loved as I am.

 

There is a line from a Fiona Apple song that says it quite well I think..

 

"When I was looking with calm affection, you were searching out my imperfections..."

[tiredofvampires]

Women have just as many expectations of men physically, so I don't understand how anyone can play the woe is me card in any sort of gender-specific aesthetic issue.

 

maybe we should start a mate thread about how we feel about how men should keep their junk.. and if its because of a womans preference or their own. . .

 

I believe from everything I've experienced and seen that women tend to be more forgiving than men about matters of appearance. If you don't believe me, take off the blindfold and look out there -- how many young, beautiful women do you see with older, more round-the-block looking blokes compared to handsome young men with round-the-block looking older ladies?

 

It's out there folks. You can tell me to shove off, but women are sought for their visual appeal, men are sought as providers, and this is a caveman's legacy.

 

So EqD, if a man were dictated to about his looks, all his friends would say, "You gonna be P-whipped by that B?" And that would be the end of it.

 

Those are not the kinds of men I run with, but I know of them and have seen it anyway, since I'm still a humanoid.

 

I'd like to add that a "myopic zealot" is someone who doesn't want their mind changed. Seeing the favorable responses by many of the men I appreciate on this board renews some reassurance, and I am open to having my mind changed if there are indeed appreciative men. I have no stake in feeling bad about anything, only finding out the truth.

[tiredofvampires]

Thank you, Nixee!! I can't rep you anymore yet!

 

I wish I had thought of bringing this up, too, to melrich! My ex one night IN BED said something out of the blue about my hair (this was on my legs) that made me feel so small, even though he didn't kick me out of bed, I wanted to crawl out and die, I felt so unsexy to him. This was a guy who had said I was the "girl of his dreams." Oh, except that your hair is highly turning me off.

 

If I had told him his shoulders were way too narrow for my taste (which they were), he would have dumped me out of his bed, his house and his life for "making me feel like I'm not 'the man!'" (His favorite terminology.)

[JadedStar]

Though I was not broken up with over it, nor kicked out of bed... my ex definitely did put the pressure on. I really don't think it is all that uncommon for a man to put this kind of pressure on a woman nowadays, either subtley or very directly, and I think that is exactly why a few women here get their feathers so ruffled over the issue.

 

The rub here is i have heard women say things like this but sometimes the women in question pressured their guy for thigns to...not saying you specifically but SOME women will say they felt pressured and not think twice guilting a guy into a diamond bigger than he can afford...I have honest to God on occasoin seen the same women who applaud the chick for refusing to shave also applaud her with a "you go girl" when she talks about successfully applying enough pressure to get a big rock for the finger. I've seen this sort of thing happen on forums before.

 

I think everyone in a relationship from time to time might put a little pressure on a partner if it is something they really want. I don't think we need to act like they are all pigs if it happens here and there.

 

I am not siding with your guy but I will say it sounds like it was a really big preference of his if he kept asking. What if you really wanted something and kept asking for it and he got ticked off and said you made him feel demeaned, when all you were doing was asking a couple of times as it was something you really wanted?

 

And you say a guy shouldn't even put subtle pressure on a girl..what do you define as subtle pressure? Asking "Honey, i'd really love it if you shaved"..is that subtle pressure? COME on people.

[tiredofvampires]

Well EqD I asked Mel for a poll, he wanted one, but I imagine he's so sick of the topic (as I am becoming myself, and I expect this to be my last thread I comment on with this, so help me GOD), maybe he won't do it now. (?)

 

Might you?

 

I also want to state to you and RayKay that I don't count women who shave for sports purposes as being included in my arguments. Shaving for sports -- like a man shaving his legs for a sport -- is about following the dictates of the sport and there's nothing socially or aesthetically implied in that.

[midnightrambler]

Well EqD I asked Mel for a poll, he wanted one, but I imagine he's so sick of the topic (as I am becoming myself, and I expect this to be my last thread I comment on with this, so help me GOD), maybe he won't do it now. (?)

 

Might you?

 

I also want to state to you and RayKay that I don't count women who shave for sports purposes as being included in my arguments. Shaving for sports -- like a man shaving his legs for a sport -- is about following the dictates of the sport and there's nothing socially or aesthetically implied in that.

 

would the poll include pictures? am too surprised at the amount of debate this produced

[JadedStar]

Well EqD I asked Mel for a poll, he wanted one, but I imagine he's so sick of the topic (as I am becoming myself, and I expect this to be my last thread I comment on with this, so help me GOD), maybe he won't do it now. (?)

 

Might you?

 

I also want to state to you and RayKay that I don't count women who shave for sports purposes as being included in my arguments. Shaving for sports -- like a man shaving his legs for a sport -- is about following the dictates of the sport and there's nothing socially or aesthetically implied in that.

 

Raykay made it pretty clear sports is not her only motivator tho. She likes it for other reasons too...that just happens to be ONE of the benefits. I.e.

 

For ME personally I like the feeling of being shaved, and also find it was better for sxual encounters.

 

Why would anyone care if someone is shaving for personal reasons for for a sport? Is one lesser than the other?

[tiredofvampires]

The rub here is i have heard women say things like this but sometimes the women in question pressured their guy for thigns to...not saying you specifically but SOME women will say they felt pressured and not think twice guilting a guy into a diamond bigger than he can afford...I have honest to God on occasoin seen the same women who applaud the chick for refusing to shave also applaud her with a "you go girl" when she talks about successfully applying enough pressure to get a big rock for the finger. I've seen this sort of thing happen on forums before.

 

I get pretty annoyed at women like this. I would never pressure my man for a "nice big rock" on my finger. It's not like I have never pressured a man for something I wanted in a relatioship. But it usually hasn't been about his body and his own "space", the things he likes about himself. That would be controlling and very narrowly accepting. My ex used so much deodorant and powder, I couldn't stand kissing him and licking him later (sorry, TMI) because I would end up with chemicals in my mouth. I was trying to figure out a way of delicately putting it, but I never did because I realized he was quite attached to his grooming habits.

[tiredofvampires]

would the poll include pictures? am too surprised at the amount of debate this produced

 

YOU AND ME, BOTH, RAMBLER!!

 

 

 

What started off as my expressing my own take on a thread has turned into me being branded a "myopic zealot." Surprises abound here, indeed.

[midnightrambler]

YOU AND ME, BOTH, RAMBLER!!

 

 

 

What started off as my expressing my own take on a thread has turned into me being branded a "myopic zealot." Surprises abound here, indeed.

 

i say you are an original.....a classic

[JadedStar]

i am too surprised at the amount of debate this produced

 

Well, there is a lack of interesting threads lately. This is one of the few out there. LOL

[midnightrambler]

Well, there is a lack of interesting threads lately. This is one of the few out there. LOL

 

i suspect this is rite......let's say this thread has made me view the picture avatars in a different way.

[tiredofvampires]

Raykay made it pretty clear sports is not her only motivator tho. She likes it for other reasons too...that just happens to be ONE of the benefits. I.e.

 

 

 

Why would anyone care if someone is shaving for personal reasons for for a sport? Is one lesser than the other?

 

It's one thing to shave because you are more aerodynamic or in less discomfort for ANY reason (sports being likely in cases.) It's another thing to shave because you disown part of your body as "gross."

 

But WHATEVERS. I don't care if a woman truly enjoys something more, hell if she enjoys wearing a clitoral pierce, which I find abhorrent, more power to her.

 

My only, simple bone to pick is about men who have said many negative things here to imply, if not state overtly, they would not date a girl who is not manicured in her pubic region, as I think that's shallow.

 

What part of that SIMPLE IDEA is so hard to swallow??

 

Women who love to shave: go for it!!!

[midnightrambler]

men are shallow? nah