GH2001

I don't know what to say other than my wife kept my heart's doors open and a co-worker knowningly, or subconsiously stepped right in, at a time in my life where I was going through an extremely rough time, just for her own emotional uplift or other reasons I might not understand. I am not shirking my own responsibility, but subconsiously when the other woman began the flirting, I was just wanting out of my marriage (and for those with flippant responses we have been to marriage counseling.) This will sound kind of strange to some, but other than my wife, I never had another girlfriend. I lacked the relationship experience to understand what the other woman was doing. Some of the things metioned in my long message seem like flirting to me, but others seem like something else was going on. I posted all of that to try and get some better idea as to what and why women do what they do, and to protect my own heart so that it never happens again. I was pretty miserable before this other woman came in. It was a surprise to me that my marriage was not good. It also was a surprise to me that a woman would flirt me because women always until now have run from me. Those realizations have sunk in now. I am trying to deal with too many emotions. The persistent 5 month seige on my heart has done real damage. My firends do not call it a crush. So there you are. That is how a 40 something year old man can wind up in deep trouble. Why do I post here? Maybe just to vent. To retell the story until I am tired of telling it so I can move on. To try and deal with the saddness and the anger. The saddness of broken relationships and the anger directed at someone who just flippantly and selfishly used my heart as a playtoy to ease her pain at home (at least that is how I see it.) For those of you who think it is "ok" to flirt with married people... know that you are dealing with fire. You can break up marriages.

Why would a woman with two kids in her mid 40's feel the need to flirt?

I had no choice but to initiate NC three months ago August 14 because I am married and was getting much too close to a co-worker. Please do not judge too harshly... I never thought it would happen to me and it can happen to nearly anyone under particular circumstances. I have learned to never say never after this. The embarrassment and anguish have at times been almost too much to take. I never did find out whether what she was doing was flirting or subconsious interest due to her unsatisfactory marriage (she has 2 kids and is four years older than me). We are both in our 40's. I was not and am not happy in mine either (I also have two kids). Anyway... I fell harder than I ever have before because frankly, noone, not even my wife ever flirted with me. Here are some of the things that just about killed me... All of this happened in a three month period last winter... 1) She would always touch my hand when handing something to me. At one point I brushed her hand when I handed something to her and I could swear that not only did she not mind, she smiled. 2) She would always inquire as to whether I was going to attend some work function and she would wait for me so that we could go together. 3) She made it a point to sit by me, brushed my leg with her hand (apologizing afterword) while we were at a restaurant and reached to scratch her leg. I thought she was sitting kind of close to me. There were about 10 others at the table. 4) She made a comment about how much we have in common when I was talking about some of my interests. 5) She brought in a newspaper article about one of my hobbies. 6) She would visit my desk to talk or go out of her way to see where I was (at my desk or working with some computer equipment in a lab). 7) Around this time last year, she began asking me if she could pick up something for me to eat at lunch at a local cafeteria. I told her that I did not know what they were serving and if I could come along. She said sure and went on to invite me about once a week, always asking, "Can I pick something up for you at the cafeteria?" 8) She would ask for help with some of her projects. At one point, she sat with her knee about half an inch from mine and invaded what I would consider my personal space. We started talking about our kids when they were babies, and she touched my arm twice when I was using my arm as a measuring stick to describe my oldest child who was only about 4 lbs at birth and 7 weeks premature. 9) She would occasionally touch my forearm and at one point she playfully pushed me when she thought I had misunderstood something she had said. 10) She would pop her head up over her cube to see when she heard my voice. (I tower over cube city at work at 6'2", she is about 5'6") 11) We went to a company presentation in an auditorium, she made certain I was going and then sat right by me, seeming somewhat physically agitated throughout the presentation, fiddling with her hands and changing whether she was leaning forward or back in her seat. I watched her recently and she was not agitated at all in the same auditorium for a similar meeting seated next to another guy. 12) One day I was at her desk and I mentioned that I would just like to go out of town (to a particular town) and just watch people walking by in the town square. I didn't mention taking anybody but she said, "Let's Go" joking but without a smile, like she needed a vacation. 13) She saw my college ID and while the other guys were laughing she said, "I think he was cute." I asked her where she was 20 years ago and she said, "Getting married." I finally told her that I was attracted to her one day last winter, just after lunch, halfway as a warning to protect my heart from further damage, because I was really feeling a bit uncomfortable. I also did not want to do anything stupid. She seemed shocked and also claimed that all she ever wanted to be was my firend. We talked the rest of the afternoon. She asked what she had done to cause this. I let her know what she had done (see above for abbreviated list.) I have since been told by people that she probably knew what she was doing. Twice after that I attempted NC and failed to keep it up. The first time was for about a week, the second for two weeks. The first time, she called me on the phone (she just sits two desks away) and started describing a computer problem and immediately transistioned into the statement, "Why are you ignoring me?" I told her it hurt. We went off for another hour long conversation where she was trying to convince me that she was a rotten person and undesireable. The second time, she stopped by my desk and asked, "Why are you avoiding me?" I again tried to explain that I was just too hooked on her. Then came another hour long conversation. I was betrayed by a confidant who told management of my attraction. That started the whispers. Fortunately I was not fired, but my boss forced me to apologize to the others for including others in what should have been left in "my own thoughts." None of the people I had involved expected an apology. I never asked her to do anything. Again, we talked for about an hour and a half. I learned just a few weeks ago that she was seriously considering a divorce about the time she was asking if she could pick something up for me to eat at the cafeteria. I would catch her crying at her desk occasionally at this time. So... I have been moved to a different department (I was told that my old position was eliminated) but we still sit just two desks away from each other. I had to help with a computer problem last August and she was flirting with another guy in my presense. That just about killed me and is driviing the current NC streak. I would also say hello and goodbye to her as I passed her desk everyday. The last flippant, "Oh... Hi" I received was the last straw. I had tried to be her friend but these two events, just mentioned pushed me to protect myself even further. I did not have the strength to tell her what I was doing. For the first month and a half, I would wear headphones and as she passed my desk I would try not to appear to be looking. She would wave. She would still visit my desk but this became very annoying and I began glaring at her when she would talk to me. She continued to wave for a time even after that. I walked a different hallway to the restroom just to avoid her. Eventually, she figured it out and stopped waving every time she passed my desk, but it still happens occasionally. As I have healed, I have started to walk the old hallway. This has resulted in some chance encounters where she would say, "Hi" without smiling. Now it has become, "Hi, " still without smiling. Today she waved at me in my care and smiled as I was leaving the parking lot. However, in the past copule of weeks she has asked me a question about one of my old projects and then shared some news about a coworker's son who had surgery. This entire year and a half has really worn me out. I am extremely sad, because I am still having trouble at home and I cannot stop thinking about her. My friends just think I am obsessing. I am mad at the entire situation and for letting my heart fall into this trap. I don't know why, after three months of this hell, some of it she has witnessed, she would still be trying to maintain contact, to be a friend. She has been hurt at times over this as well. If I were in her shoes, I would avoid being seen with me for my own reputation. I want to get over her so I can do my job in peace. Sometimes, I don't know if that will be possible. There is no way I could find another job without taking a major pay hit, and I am healing slowly but things are still rough at home. Does anyone have any idea what might be going on in this woman's head? Why doesn't she recoil at the thought of being around me or talking to me, especially when about half of the people we work with know about this? Just how much longer do I have to wait with NC to declare myself free? On a scale of 1 - 10, how aggressive was her flirting (or was this something else?) One thing is certain, NC hurts like hell but I can see some small improvement in my spirits. However, there are still other days when I wonder how I will live.

Well, I am on day 36 NC/LC with the woman here at work. For some reason the anxiety level is really high. If it were like this every day, I would have quit my job a long time ago. My life just seems like such a disaster today. I can't even identify why I am anxious. I don't think I even like her anymore but the feelings of attraction are still there. It is just such a confusing and heart wrenching feeling. Does it ever get any better?

Some days are better than others. Today, I am trying to stay focused but I just can't.

Absolutely correct! Keep it coming. Today is getting rough. She was laughing and kidding around with another guy today here at work.

Well, I guess I need to pat myself on the back. The NC/LC is continuing and I do believe it is helping. I have reprogramed a lot of my thoughts at this point. The prevalent thoughts right now are, "She was never even that good a friend", "She wanted to define the friendship", "She was insensitive", "I don't need another watercooler friend", "She is not and never was that 'into me'" I should not get pleasure out of this (it is guess is a sign I am not able to fully perform NC/LC) but she will still walk by and look in the cube. Just yesterday, I was facing out looking down at my file cabinet and she said, "Hi There." I do not return the glance but I gave a flippant "Hi" to be "nice". I know what she wants. She wants things to go back to the old friendship. She wants the complements. She wants the emotional uplift that her husband does not give her and I can't. She does not know how bad she hurt my family and I. In a way, I don't think she cares. She is d-y-s-f-u-n-c-t-i-o-n-a-l !!!! I bet she doesn't think she has done anything wrong. I guess I should have some empathy but that would only lead to breaking NC.

I think the NC is working. This other woman has been demonized in my mind to the point where I don't know that I like her anymore. It still hurts though and it is not improving my marriage. I just feel all kinds of anger right now.

A basic misunderstanding of the emotion of Romantic Love prevails in society today. There is a reason it is called "chemistry" between two people. There are actual brain chemicals that influence how we react to select members of the opposite gender. The nasty chemical involved, Phenethylamine (PEA) is responsible and it can influence us for 18 to 36 months according to Helen Fisher in her book "The Anatomy of Love." It does not matter what life situation you find yourself occupying. If you do not have a present flame, you are open to the influence. Even if you are married and have a wonderful life with everything you ever wanted, you are open. If your passions are not fed in your marriage, you are open for the influence of this chemistry. It is important to have passions beyond the physical and that these passions be visited frequently by the pair. The physical in reality may be only 10 percent of a marriage and most of that is consumed in the first three years. Crushes, infatuations, obsessive love, romantic love; they are all the same thing in reality. There are juvenile connotations to the first two of these. The second is considered a mental disorder. The last is considered the adult version of true love. I believe some of us fall harder in-love than others. Some thrive on shallow love relationships for a lifetime. Some require deeper relationships. Others remain miserable because the shallow love, prevailing in some bad marriages, does not satisfy one or both partners. I believe this is a major reason in adultery beyond just getting married for the physical. Helen Fisher's book also talks about the two phases of love, Attraction, Phase I (in-love); and Attachment (love) Phase II. Phase II can last a lifetime if the passions are shared and nurtured. Phase I results in the brain being saturated with PEA resulting in "crushes, infatuations, obsessive love, and romantic love." Phase II is considered the comforting stable stage most often associated with a mature love. I hope this helps some of you understand where you are today. I know if I had heard these things in my teens and twenties I could have avoided many visits to the therapist and would have a happier marriage. I would have made different choices.

I can see that time coming (when I don't lament the loss of a friend). I think what she did to me at a very vulnerable time in my life (my wife was four months pregnant at the time when she really turned on the flirting), just to satisfy what she was missing at home was horrible. It has actually been a bit entertaining to watch as she has tried to say hello to me racing by my cube as seen through my peripheral vision. I have the headphones on and cannot hear her coming. She had a real concerned look on her face. The look was the polar opposite of what I saw the day that I decided to go LC / NC which was a casual, "Oh... Hi" wave when I told her good morning on August 14th.

It is sad to lose even the friendship. I hope one day to be able to say, Ah the heck with it. I don't need to feel anymore. Today hurts pretty bad. I have to learn to "unknow" her.

Has anyone else experienced this with NC. You want to forget the object of your affection so you try NC to forget them. However, the more you try to focus on NC the more you think about the object... ARRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH How can you combat this?

I am doing those things. It does sound like we are living parallel lives. The headphones work great. The tough part is coming home. My wife and I were having problems before this happened, probably for the last seven years but it really became intense about a year ago. I was able to forget about those problems because no one was messing with my mind. But when this woman started messing with my mind by flirting it became really obvious to me that I had problems at home. My wife and I are in marriage counseling now. It is true that this woman should not be flirting. She has a lousy marriage as well. I will start a job search in two weeks if things don't start to get better with NC/LC. I just really can't stand it anymore. I am on day 18 of LC. I have tried twice before and only made it 14 days max. I can't fail this time.

It is killing me today. I am not able to do my job. All she has to do is walk by my cube and I die. 11 months of this... There have been several weeks in the past 11 months where we have been apart for a week so the vacation idea only brings temporary relief. (I say we, we never dated, I had not intention of dating or even going out, we are both married with 2 kids). This is as horrible a thing as has ever happened to me. How do you get over someone that you see nearly every day?

Is LC what I should use with a co-worker that I don't have to work with but walks by my cube several times a day and says "Hi"

I have been using NC with a co-worker just to heal since August 14th (17 days). 11 months ago I fell hard. I am married and she is as well. We both have 2 kids each. I just wish she would go away, find another job, get out of my life. Nothing has ever happened between us except her flirting that made me fall in the first place. I never wanted this. She has hurt me so much without even knowing it. I confessed my feelings in February. How long is NC supposed to take? How can you do this at work when you can literally hear the other on the phone and see them pass your cube? Jobs are hard to find these days. NC hurts so bad. She has ruined nearly a year of my life. I need some encouragement.

I have reached a point where I want to save the marriage. It has been a journey through hell to get here, but I am here. My wife basically left my heart's door unlocked about two years ago. The other woman came in about 11 months ago and stole everything, just out of a desire to gain emotional gratification from me, due to her loveless marriage. The other woman found out about my feelings for her six months ago and said that she has always wanted to be just friends. The NC is the healing form, just to put the other woman, a co-worker, out of my mind. I want to focus on the marriage but the other woman has made that so difficult. She has wanted to have a friendship so bad, that she has confronted me twice before when I have tried to heal through NC, asking me why I am avoiding/ ignoring her. This time, I figure she will be angered and I will be pushed away but that is a good thing now. I am finally strong enough to stick with it. She seemed to be taking the friendship more lightly recently anyway. There are stresses on the husband of a pregnant wife as well that are sometimes ignored. I don't take the idea of childrearing lightly. However, in answer to the question, the demands were for a new house, a new truck, all kinds of expenditures... The other problems in the marriage have to do with a lack of closeness and chemistry. When you talk about moving and having an unplanned new life in the family, it can stress out the guy too. We planned our first child and have been married for over ten years with a pre-school daughter (planned) and our son was born last winter. In retrospect, we have had a lack of closeness for about seven years. It took the flirtatous woman to bring it to the front of my mind as an important issue. I thought I was too old to have this happen to me, that the hormones would subside in middle age. No woman has ever flirted with me before this and it just about drove me crazy. Due to all of this, I feel no love for my wife anymore. The NC is difficult but I expect that it will get easier as the months pass.

That about sums it up RayKay. Unfortunately, it took many years, 2 kids, and a flirtatous woman to bring this about. You are right about the loneliness. It is just so hard being a person with many varied interests who has to experience them either by himself because of being "married." My wife DENIES that she is not interested in my interests but ACTIONS speak louder than her words. I can see it in her eyes too. She needs to be honest with herself. I have reached that point. I think she is satisfied with the comfort of the relationship. As our marriage counselor said, after I told her the story, I must be in agony. I guess the next few months will tell the tale. Her parents and my parents will not understand if we divorce someday. It will break their hearts. But it is my life and hers, not theirs. Our kids are another matter. I have been on those discussions on enotalone as well. I have come to the conclusion that romantic love is a disease, not an emotion!

Maybe I can explain a bit more. She was 18, I was 23, when we met. We dated for about three years. Neither of us had ever dated anyone before. I was lonely and felt that I was becoming the male equivalent of an Old Maid. We both moved away from home the day that we married. We have a marriage lasting over 15 years (I am in my 40's). We have two kids 4 and 1 years old. All of this started early in the marriage. I found that we didn't have much in common, maybe a month (Honeymoon's over!) into the marriage. I kept trying to find things that we could do to enjoy our new life together. She was happy watching television or tagging along doing things I liked to do. I was self-conscious that she was not having a good time. I wanted her to enjoy life, not just be a spectator in mine. I thought I was supposed to make her happy. You can't MAKE someone happy or define another's happiness. I guess she is just happy watching television. However, I NEED more. Maybe that is selfish on my part. In retrospect before the children, we were living separate lives, even cooking separately. After numerous attempts to find common ground, I made the big mistake of thinking that children would bring us together. The first child did for a while, but then my wife started running back home and spending more and more time with her family sitting in front of the television. Then the announcement of the second child on the way with the demands of "We need this, we need that..." Then I just wanted out. That was about 18 months ago. Eleven months ago a woman started lightly flirting with me at work. It emphasized the fact that I had been subconsciously unhappy for a long time at home. She reached a part of my soul that few people have seen. I fell hard for this woman who is also in a loveless marriage. Without this intrusion, it would have been difficult to resist looking, but I would still be brainwashed, believing that I lived in a "divinely protected marriage." However, even the seemingly benign flirting, if there is such a thing, hit me like a ton of bricks. So, I have spent almost a year trying to get her out of my head. I am using No Contact right now just to try and make some space to heal. I have convinced myself that she is wrong for me. What has happened is that due to this other woman, my unhappiness has been revealed unto myself. So, even when I finally get over this other woman, there will be this recognition that something is missing from my life and I am open to another intrusion. I don't like spending time with my wife anymore.

I forgot to mention that this lady gets her emotional gratification at work because her marriage is bad too. It could be possible that she wrecked mine. I am trying to demonize her for this. Mine was not good when she started with the flirting. My wife was pregnant (surprise!) and I was still coping with that. In addition my wife was putting all of these demands on me. I just need to know how long No Contact takes. I must get over this lady.

Eleven months ago I fell hard for a co-worker. She started flirting with me, fairly benign some might say, but I was primed, lonely, and sad. I confessed my attraction in February and have not been really good at maintaining NC to heal. This time, I have to do follow through. I can't quit my job. I have been having some real problems with my marriage for the past 18 months and she has caused real damage, maybe to the point of no return in my marriage. There has been no infidelity and she has said that she just wants to be friends and that is all that she has ever wanted. Twice she has asked me, when I have initiated No Contact, why I have been avoiding or ignoring her. It always develops into this hour long discussion of my feelings and nothing is accomplished. Of course the lines that were drawn on her side included so many restrictions that I have come to the conclusion that she is just a watercooler friend. This time I suspect that I have angered her ](*,) probably beyond the point of having even a water cooler friend. I have been slowly realizing that being her friend is impossible and have naturally just stopped talking to her except for a Hi in the morning and a Bye in the evening. She can tell that this is still bugging me because she keeps asking me if I am "Ok." I took the plunge Monday to return some books I borrowed for the job and asked for my book back that I loaned to her. I could see the pain in her face like, "What is wrong with this guy?" How long will it take No Contact to work to heal my heart!

It is really still tough. We have started counseling. I think divorce is selfish. I do not love my wife and cannot envision how I will ever get back to being in a loving situation. It is basically a loveless marriage. There have not been any affairs. It is just an acknowledgement on my part that we have grown so far apart as to be really not even on the same page anymore. Sex life? About 4 times a year and that might be a stretch. It does not bother me as much as not having a soul mate. I just get lonely, wondering what might have been if I had waited longer and dated a few more women. I was 26 when I married. That sounds average, but it was an inmature age for me. I only now am figuring out what I did not consider when selecting a mate. What a shame that we only get one real shot at "becoming one" and then, if it goes wrong, you feel suffocated, stuck.

Well, I have had two sessions now. The first with my wife and the second alone with the thearipst. I requested that the second session be alone (my wife also had a session alone). I needed to air out some things that I did not want my wife to hear. First, I don't want to hurt her any more than she already has been hurt. I don't hate her... I just am not getting what I need from the marriage. Second, I wanted to really share what has been going on in my life. It took me a full hour to explain over the last 18 months how my life has turned into a nightmare. The counselor said that I am obviously in agony and really emphasized. She used the term that I am suffocating in the marriage. It is funny that she used that term because I told my wife that several months ago and my wife still picks at me with it at times. Now my wife is saying that she was simply my longest "crush." We have been married 15 years. If anything, I never had a "crush" on her and should have questioned whether we were compatible way-back-then...

Thank you RayKay for those words of wisdom. As another enotalone buddy I have been speaking to... you are wise beyond your years. Identification of what I am looking for is tough, I agree. I subconsiously was wandering about for those seven years. Actually falling in-love with someone else was a wake up call. It is so "new" as to be sureal for both my wife and I. I have been giving it time, in hopes that counseling and a cooler heads will prevail. Marriage is hard work, harder than I realized it would be 15 years ago. It actually opens up the entire religion can of worms. I can't say that I would still be married if it were not for understanding that I have to abide strongly by God's word on divorce. That also keeps me tied down and is probably an entirely different thread. The concept of divorce/remarriage = adultery is really convicting me right now. Are there any threads on enotalone that address this? I don't want to repeat threads here. I have been on many Christian chat groups that are really harsh but maybe this is because God's laws are sometimes harsh but necessary. As you can see. I am really confused.