Why girls should offer to pay (and mean it...)..

[EvaGina]

My point is that it is the expectation of gender roles that is wrong. If you expect a man to pay extra for you where is the justification for that?

 

What is so special about a woman that she feels she has a right to expect a man pay extra simply because she is a woman? What is so special about a man that he should expect a woman to be a stay at home Mom and give up her career?

 

WELL SAID!!!

except the concept of stay at home mums is as old as the hills...

[DN]

 

WELL SAID!!!

except the concept of stay at home mums is as old as the hills...

Except it isn't. Prior to the industrial revolution most people, including men, worked from or near their homes, either self-employed or employed by others. Only the aristocrats had leisure and did not work as such. Once factories were invented men, women and young children worked long hours in them. It was only with the rise of the middle class that some families could afford for the woman to become a housewife while her husband went off to to paid employment. But even then the majority of women still worked at a job.

 

The stay at home Mom as a norm in society lasted for about three or four generations - not many in terms of human development.

[Northalius]

To the couple it might seem perfectly fair or "equal" if the man pays more often and the woman does more of the cleaning or shopping or whatever.

 

The first date has nothing to do with the woman shopping, cleaning, or whatever. They don't know each other. This is the reason why both should be willing to pay half for a date they're both going on. I just like the intent of a woman to be respectful enough to be willing to pay half! I'd not let her after that, however. Her good intent would be enough for me to pay full. And that is being a gentleman, in my own view. A gentleman that has self respect, as well. Not a doormat gentleman.

 

Of course, there are exceptions that one person doesn't have a job, or is tight with bills, etc. that's another story.

 

I just like knowing that I'm respected, as I respect myself; not taken advantage of because of outdated views on dating. Times were different years ago, when most women didn't work; that's where this mentality comes from, and why many older people would probably think this way. Well, times have changed my friends. Women have jobs now, thereforeeee, if they don't have the intent to pay half even though they're rolling in the dough, I don't smell something right with that. Sorry.

[Batya33]

If a man invites me out on a first date, I expect him to pay. I likely will offer to pay but frankly, if he accepts my offer - with a few exceptions - that will not be a positive in my book. Yes, I agree it sounds hypocritical to offer if in reality I would not look favorably on a man who accepts my offer, so I try hard not to have it be a negative - more like a "neutral."

 

If things change such that it becomes effective for women who want a serious relationship with a man to do the courting that men now do, particularly in the early stages of dating, then at that point in time of course the woman should treat if she asks the man out on a date.

 

At this point in time, and for the length of my dating experience (25 years, on and off as I was in several serious relationships for several years each) the general situation has been that men who are sincerely interested in dating a woman with the potential for a serious relationship take it upon themselves - and often feel the most comfortable - to do most of the initiating, planning and calling in the beginning. From those invitations is where the "man pays" situation comes.

 

If I advised a woman 28 or over (because as I said I don't know if things have changed for the teens/early 20s) that she should do as much of the asking, planning and initiating in the beginning stages as the man does - or more - I would be setting her up for many disappointments, perhaps a few one date or two date wonders, and perhaps a few one night stands or flings.

 

And, when the man was done being flattered by this assertive woman, this paragon of equality, she would have the lovely experience -- if she stayed in touch as "friends" -- of watching him pursue a lady in the traditional way -- perhaps he would even call his "feminist" "buddy' for advice on where to take her to dinner, what to bring to her parents when he met them, what bed and breakfast to take her to for V-day weekend.

 

Obviously there are exceptions - obviously there are obvious flaws in this whole courting process - if someone asked me for advice on how to change it, I confess I am not sure what advice I would give -- that is for someone else to do, not my skill set! Often the women who want to change the way it works are in a situation where the man isn't that into her, so rather than accept that they "pretend" that they are into this whole "equality" shtick to justify pursuing him - and when he inevitably rejects her, all of a sudden he is a jerk and a loser for not wanting her. That "equality" goes out the window the minute a man who is really interested pursues her. Seen it many times.

 

Again these are just my experiences based on hundreds of people I know and have known.

[DN]

Well, I am 56. When I was dating many moons ago the norm was as you describe. But that was a generation ago and times have moved on - it is perhaps time that women such as you describe caught up.

 

I don't claim to know the details of the courting techniques of hundreds of people - I would not be so bold as to ask and I doubt people would just up and tell me of their own volition. I am impressed that you do know. But the fact that these hundreds of people who have confided in you have acted this way over these many years that you have been dating does not mean that it is appropriate or necessary in more modern times.

[Batya33]

Thanks for sharing. I don't see it as a need to catch up - if there needs to be a change in dating and courting practices I'm sure that will happen over time, just like the whole practice of courting has changed over time (not in my lifetime though). Here's the thing - if men continue to prefer traditional courting, there willl be no impetus for women to change -- and I say prefer because in addition to knowing hundreds of people as I mentioned for whatever reason I have traditionally been the one that gets called by my guy friends for restaurant recommendations and activity recommendations and gifts for dates -- for them it is the way they court the new woman in their life - and often I get these calls from married men who want to make sure their wives feel special on a special occasion.

 

An example - on one of our early dates, my boyfriend had called in advance and told me he would call me the day of the date with the restaurant location. What he picked however wasn't going to work - it was over 100 degrees outside and not convenient to the theater. I said that I could make some suggestions for good places closer to the theater. He said he was concerned because he wanted to be the one to make the plans -- didn't want me to feel like I had to lift a finger. I assured him that that wasn't an issue at all.

 

That's a bit extreme on the traditional continuum - but it's very typical of the men I know - they take pride in courting a lady they want a serious relationship with --and it's not about hoping for early sex, etc, either - it's just what feels right to them. Should they change -- is this just silly societal influences and they don't know any better? Perhaps - I don't know. But for most of the men I know if they complain it is "pretend complaining" - when it comes down to it, they like treating a woman like a lady and that is how they define treating her like a lady.

 

And I can see why they like it - because when I plan an evening for my boyfriend and me, I take pride in it too and get pleasure out of the planning and treating.

[melrich]

The way we live and the norms of society are changing so quickly these days. I mean I am only 20 years from being a teenager and it all seems so different to me. My partner is only 10 years from being a teenager and it's different to her.

 

I think we tend to operate based on the norms of our generation. I think it's important to realise they may not be as relevant as they were (I generally never get into dating posts because it's a whole new world to what I knew).

 

The sons and daughters of my friends do seem to live in a dating world that is far more "equal" than the one I came from. The 14 and 15 year old girls seem to have no trouble asking the 14 and 15 year old boys out.

 

I think sometimes we get anchored in what we know. Me, I am definitely from the man asks/man pays era but I suspect my daughter will not be.

[Batya33]

I see some of that in my teenage nieces, too, but I also see confusion on the issue. Will be interesting to watch if the dating situation changes.

[melrich]

I see some of that in my teenage nieces, too, but I also see confusion on the issue. Will be interesting to watch if the dating situation changes.

 

I think in any transitory stage there is confusion. But what I absolutely notice is that the 14 and 15 year olds today (the ones I am close to anyway) are so much more knowledgeable, confident and worldly than they ever were in my day.

 

I'd really be surprised if in 30 years time, some of the norms we took for granted are still around.

 

Everything comes and goes in cycles I guess. As DN said elsewhere, many of the things we consider traditional are really no older than the 20th century.

 

I often look at my daughter (1) and wonder what sort of world she will live in. I kind of think I'd like her to have lived in mine because I know it and I can advise her on it but I am pretty sure that is not what is in store for her and by the time she is 15 my advice will be largely irrelevant.

[Batya33]

When I was a teenager we were all confident and worldly and we all expected the boys to call and ask us out -- those two ways of being were not inconsistent. I knew at age 15 what profession I wanted (a male-dominated one, especially then!) and I also knew that having a high school sweetheart who would take me to the prom and let me wear his high school ring on a chain around my neck was also very important. I didn't act like a wilting flower around boys - I was flirty, friendly, proactive - but I let them do the calling and the asking. I was perfectly confident back then choosing boys who I was just going to make out with for the evening, or dance close to with no potential for anything more and I had no problem asking them to dance, or being very forward about my intentions.

 

I think things like myspace make it "seem" like teenagers are more confident because they are more "out there" but I'm not so sure they really are .. . .. .

 

Interesting post, Melrich!

[melrich]

When I was a teenager we were all confident and worldly

 

Yes I think you may have been exceptions.

 

I think we are about the same vintage. In my day I knew my local myths, I knew what I was taught at school, I was a reader so I knew what was in the papers and on the limited media available, I had a vague understanding of overseas events. There were not too many other avenues of information. What I knew about sex at 14 you could write on a Post It note.

 

Nowadays my 4.5 year old gets onto the internet (it is heavily policed) he has access to things I could only have dreamed of. In a few years he will be chatting to kids his age around the world, he will be flirting with his classmates on line, probably late into the night. Girls will send him texts and messages asking him to meet them. He will respond. Sometimes he'll text asking them to meet him.

 

His interests will be far more global than mine. His exposure to cultures beyond his neighborhood culture or city culture will be far more extensive than mine ever was. He will have a mobile phone at 10 and instant access to whomever he wants to contact. He will live in a time where women have more equality in the workplace than ever before and a woman in a career is not looked at sideways in fact it will be desired because the cost of living demands two incomes. Likely he will marry and have kids far later than my generation and his experience as a single person will be longer and more varied. He has cable TV and can watch TV from the US, from Hong Kong, from South Africa. The best I could hope for was one multicutural channel which came on line when I was about 18. Already he astounds me with the things he has learnt.

 

He will come to sites like eNotalone and ask how he should handle dating. The young ones will tell him their way and it won't be my way.

 

The list goes on. His opportunities to access knowledge will far far outweigh his capacity to absorb it. His exposure to other ways of doing things will far exceed the relatively narrow world I was brought up in. He will have career counselling at about 11 and a range of career options far greater than ever in the past. And he will grow up watching girls having and being encouraged to pursue those same options.

 

It will be a vastly different growing experience than I ever had and I expect that the consequences (as I am seeing already) are going to significantly change what I know as the norms of male/female relationships.

[lifestream]

Perhaps this is why Batya and I seem at odds on the subject

 

And thank you DN, I agree wholeheartedly with you there. My sentiments exactly.