No closure/ NC/ how long for his call?

[shikashika]

jamie... nice to read your update!

 

I can't offer any advice.. i would have no idea what do do either... its sounds like things are good.

 

I like the way Scout poses the question.

 

i really wouldn't read into what your therapist or friends say... i'm guilty of doing that... and its tough, because i want to trust my gut instinct... and every single person has a different idea on what i should or shouldn't do. sooo frustrating..

 

hmnn... personally right now... i would want to get right back into an intimate thing (even if i shouldn't!!) i would find it really hard to resist.

 

I know how you feel... thats all! .....well not exactly, because i haven't been in touch with my ex...

 

good luck Jamie!

[jamiek]

Thanks! I must sound like a crazy woman (which he hasn't gotten any detection of lately). I'm not sure if I should be holding back on other things in the meantime too (while we're not exclusive). I don't think he's dating anyone else but seeing him on there is weird/hard. I would definitely phase a status question lightly with no pressure. I'm nervous though. Do you think I should do it next date or still wait a bit?

Thanks again, I appreciate it. Happy Halloween!!

 

J

[jamiek]

Thank Shikashika!!! I know, I'm confused and have a hard time feeling so vulnerable. He did hurt me and has sent mixed messages. He is being sweet now too though?? Yeah the intimacy thing is bugging me, it's good but I might be stupid for allowing it. I'm sorry about your guy. Are you feeling any better or dating anyone else?

[Scout]

Jamie, the fastest way to change a situation is to change your perspective on it. For example, your persistent worry about him being on link removed. You want to quit worrying about link removed? Stop looking at it. There is no purpose to looking at it while you two are still in an unofficial status.

 

To be honest, I think you are still racing your mind over what he's said, rather than look at what he's doing. Which is being caring, attentive, and available again.

 

This period of time is going to be a bit bumpy, it's going to call for patience, and if you truly want to be with him, you're just going to have to adjust your thinking and mindset. I do not understand why you aren't happier that you guys are actually seeing each other again. Because it's not a defined relationship? What you should be concentrating on is building the foundation for a solid relationship. Instead of worrying about the official status.

 

Again, live your present well, because it determines your future. Live in the moment and just enjoy it! You were miserable when you two broke up, now you're spending time together again, be happy!

[shikashika]

Thank Shikashika!!! I know, I'm confused and have a hard time feeling so vulnerable. He did hurt me and has sent mixed messages. He is being sweet now too though?? Yeah the intimacy thing is bugging me, it's good but I might be stupid for allowing it. I'm sorry about your guy. Are you feeling any better or dating anyone else?

 

 

no not dating anyone... and spending far too much time overanalysing my situation... which is maybe a good thing... maybe i'll get sick of it.. but i keep saying that and not doing anything.

 

I may see him this evening..but not really sure what to say apart from a 'hi how are you".. and he can answer "i'm good how are you" see! i'm already plannign his reponses!

 

anyway, it seems like things are going well for you.. i agree.. its good to be happy and in the moment... but i find myself thinking and thinking far too much.. which is what maybe gets me into trouble in the first place!

[jamiek]

I'm not worrying about an official status, just simply of getting hurt. The statement he made was big. If eel like men don't say that unless they mean it. I am happy we're seeing each other againa dn enjoying it. Thanks!!! I'll keep u posted.

[Scout]

I understand, being hurt sucks. I certainly don't want to see you get hurt, either, you seem like a great gal!

 

So, let's try to view this rekindled thing in a different perspective. At this point, you have no idea if it's going to work out. All you can do is enjoy the now, and LEARN. And you have learned some things, haven't you? You've learned that pride can hold you back from letting someone know how you feel, that it can hold you back from taking risks, that it can hold you back from doing the work needed to forge meaningful connections with people. All of what I'm referring to here is that pride-based fear that held you back from contacting him in the first place.

 

And I would suspect you've learned a little about putting yourself in the other's shoes. For example, what happened at the concert. Even though you still wished he had walked with you to get your purse, you realized how you handled it was not as you would have preferred. You had the courage to apologize to him about it and MEAN it. And you got a great response from him in exchange! What you learned here was that you can't hold onto hurts and grievances, all you can do is apologize for the part you played in them. And it's such a freeing feeling when you do.

 

Look, I know you're really putting yourself out there right now. It's scary! But, I also know too many people on this site never will do this, because their fear and pride will hold them back. The result is they either miss a real chance at a reconcilation with their ex, or a chance at improving their relationship skills. Because you are currently doing the latter, whether it ultimately works out with this guy or not.

 

I'm actually quite proud of you!

[shikashika]

Scout, you are probably the only person on this site who promotes getting over our pride , knowing what we may have done SOMETHING to contribute towards a breakup.

 

I guess it worked for you! so many people on this site are quick to say "NC NC NC NC NC NC NC NC NC!!! and to not waste our time thinking about what went wrong and moving on without learning from our experiences.. its true that sometimes we may be flogging a dead horse or spending WAy too much time thinking about it.

 

i think to much and over think too much without doing anything about it... i just hear the NC NC NC all the time.... its so hard to know...

[jamiek]

Thanks Scout – that's nice to hear. I do feel good for apologizing. I wish he had also apologized for hurting me but perhaps he's trying to say that in his actions (the "handy-man" stuff). I truly hope he wouldn't be acting this way if he meant what he said. I hope to hear from him sometime soon this week. I actually had a very nice date Friday night w/ someone and we're going out again (and this could get complicated but we'll see). Ok, so I'll be patient for now. When do you suggest I ask that light temperature check question? THANKS!!!!

[Scout]

Jamie, I have a question for you. What do you really want from this guy? Do you want to be assured he thinks you're the right match? Or do you want to work things out with him?

 

I'm a little surprised to hear you went on a date with someone else. Yes, you're throwing in something else to the mix that could get complicated. And yet, you want to know where things stand NOW with this other guy.

 

You're right, I advocate we all drop the pride-driven behavior that motivates so much of what we do. And in your case, I think you need to figure out if your heart or your pride is driving a reconciliation with this guy.

[jamiek]

Hi Scout. I'm not even 100% sure of what I want at this point. But I do really care about David and enjoy being with him. If he wanted to be exclusive, I would be to see where things would go. I would devote/commit myself to him. But, he doesn't want to be as of now. He is actively on-line dating. I didn't want him back for pride, I missed him and care about him. But, in the meantime, as you said, we have no idea what will happen and I need to try to keep my mind calm about it. I'm not sure why I should not date others right now in our current situation. He is keeping that avenue clearly open also and actively searching on-line (I'm not, it was a friend's friend). This status or lack there of between David and I was his decision. It doesn't mean I don't care about David or want something with him but I'm feeling extremely vulnerable and uncertain and have no idea what the deal is. Why is it bad that I would go out with someone else?

[moonbeam111]

At this point you don't have to feel guilty for seeing other people. I also wonder why a woman always gets blamed for being physical with a man when it takes two people to be intimate. You made a choice to be with him, you have no need to justify your decision. You are both adults and you are not strangers.

 

Clearly, he is online looking for others and evaluating his options. Clearly, he wants to alleviate his guilt by doing nice things for you and being affectionate. Does it mean that his core decision of you not being the one has changed? I doubt it. Can you change his decision by being more available, attentive, intimate, and sweet to him? You have been sweet, attentive, intimate, and avaliable from the very beginning. In your heart you know that if you ask him about your status, he would not give you a different answer.

 

Another thought: the holiday season is here. Sinlge people are very vulnerable during this period and tend to avoid being alone at any cost. Hence they call the exes or stay with a person that is around at the moment.

[Scout]

Why is it bad that I would go out with someone else?

 

I didn't say it was bad. I just questioned if you are sure you want a reconcilation with him.

 

I would also point out you don't know if he's actually dating, or just browsing the profiles. Once you have an account, it can be kind of addictive just to see what's up there. He could just be doing it out of boredom. You know, check the Internet news sites, check the Onion, hey, what's up on Match these days.

 

Also, you've only had a couple of dates so far, and that's just not nearly enough time to get things back on track. If you decide you want to commit to him, I would do so with the idea it's because you know for sure he's the guy you want to commit to...not to "see where it goes." Right now, you're in the "see where it goes" mode. And again, that requires living day to day instead of worring about the future.

[Scout]

Clearly, he wants to alleviate his guilt by doing nice things for you and being affectionate. Does it mean that his core decision of you not being the one has changed? I doubt it. Can you change his decision by being more available, attentive, intimate, and sweet to him? You have been sweet, attentive, intimate, and avaliable from the very beginning.

 

Can't say I agree...with much of any of this. Last I checked, people don't hang around us because they feel guilty. They actually enjoy our company, that's why they spend time with us.

 

I also disagree that his "decision about her" is not a core one, nor is it a final one. If anything, this guy has proved that he's open to re-evaluating his thoughts that led to the break up. People change their minds quite often. When I was trying to get back with my boyfriend, his original assertion was, "It's not going to happen." A week later...he was more open to the idea. A month later...we're back together.

 

And no offense to Jamie, but there were a few incidents in the relationship where she was not so sweet, or for that matter, available. She says herself she wasn't that into him at first and turned down one of his invitations to meet his family.

[moonbeam111]

Oh yes, dumpers do feel guilty and try to be nice to get rid of their guilt for hurting their exes. Last time I checked, there were many guys who still kept in touch with their exes having casual sex, hanging out, and helping out from time to time. They openly talk about warm feelings toward the exes and having a good time with them... as long as the rules are not broken and there are no demands on being exclusive.

 

And at the same time they are still looking for "the one".

[Scout]

I used to think the same thing, Moonbeam. In fact, the break up I was experiencing that originally led me to eNotalone a few years ago really seemed that way to me.

 

Now that I look back, I feel I was wrong. He gave me clear signs and said certain things that if I had just not impatiently brushed aside, might have shown me otherwise. I'm actually glad we didn't end up together, because I wouldn't be with the guy I'm with now, but still...that last relationship was definitely hallmarked by my impatience, demandingness, and total insecurity. It led to our break up, and it led to our break up's break up, lol.

[moonbeam111]

I think that it always necessary to work on improving yourself. It's unfortunate that we pay attention to it only when something bad happens in our relatioships.

 

Scout, I also know many women in the status of exes that keep working on communication, being attentive, and non-demanding with guys who clearly are not committed to them. But those women still have hopes because of the crambles of attention they get.

 

One more red flag that I saw in Jamie's relationship: he did not want to take her to his sister. Being Jewish, I understand how important the family is for Jewish men. Most of the time they would only bring in a woman that would be approved by family and would become a member of that family in a future. Not having a lot of friends but having very close relationships with family members is typical for Jewish men (not all of them). I hope that he would invite Jamie to family gatherings next time.

 

I tend to rely on actions rather than words when it comes to men.

[bighair]

Shika -

 

I know this isn't your thread. I think why men tell you this because that STUPID freakin' phrase: I'm just not that into you...is vogue. YOu know...those people wrote that book w. a catchy title and it is now used to excuse, justify, and explain every relationship problem known to men and women.

 

It's like when I post here and lots of people say: well, bighair, he's just not that into you, you broke The Rules, did you know that you live on Venus?...

Gee....when someone is being physically, emotionally, and verbally abused, stalked, terrorized, do we tell the victim..."sweetie, he's just not that into you..if he was into you..he wouldn't beat you...."

 

so, it sounds like your man is afraid of commitment and just isn't sure what he wants from a relationship with you...whatever....it's easy to say "i'm not that into you..." he doesn't have to look inside himself, and tell you what the problem is...it's an easy out.

 

can you tell i hate those books?

[Scout]

One more red flag that I saw in Jamie's relationship: he did not want to take her to his sister.

He did ask her once. She said no.

 

I tend to rely on actions rather than words when it comes to men.

 

Exactly. That's why I'm urging her to pay more attention to his actions right now (the dates, the affection, the little services he's performing around her house) then the words he said a couple of weeks ago.

[moonbeam111]

Yes, he asked her at the beginning of their relationship. However, he stopped approximately around the time he started having doubts about dating her while she tried to get invited. You know, with Jewish men it's almost like a pregnancy test - 95% accurate!

 

He started having doubts a few weeks prior to the breakup. She noticed his reluctance in terms of committing to the dates and plans. Hence building resentment and yelling on her part. It was not about the purse and one evening, it was about the total shift Jamie felt on a cerebral level for some time.

 

 

I am not here to analyze people I have never met. Scout, your experience is unique (just like everybody else) and the outcome is not clear yet. I do hope, however, that women can avoid being hurt by letting go of false hopes. It takes courage to say that yes, I like him a lot and he is nice but he is not on the same page with me. It takes courage to approach a man and ask about his intentions and state your wishes with regard to a relationship.

[Scout]

Well, you're doing an awful lot of analysis on this guy to the point you've concluded he's basically using Jamie. We don't know all the facts, that's true. I've been coming to eNotalone for three years now, and one thing I've discovered is just that...we don't get all the facts. We get the poster's side, and it usually doesn't include much detail on what they could have contributed to a relationship's problems. It's a lot easier to be sympathetic to the poster's side, because we're not hearing the other person's side. You should keep that in mind before you conclude that she was always sweet, attentive, and available, and that any of her negative actions were purely as a result of his own.

 

The one thing I agree with is your statement it takes courage to state your wishes about a relationship. That's why I've been encouraging Jamie from the beginning to do so, because her wishes were to get back together with him. Because they had issues in the past, it's unreasonable in my opinion to expect him to be 100% on board at the exact time she wants him to. There are two people in every relationship with their own set of needs and their own timetable. I am trying to encourage her to put herself in his shoes a bit, slow the pace, enjoy the now, because this seems her best shot at building a more solid connection with him. Even if it doesn't pan out with him, surely these are approaches that can only serve her well in subsequent relationships.

[jamiek]

God you guys, you're arguing my two inner voices. I'm so torn and confused and afraid. I really don't know what to think. Maybe he is just hanging with me b/c he enjoys my company and our physical chemistry but still means what he said and is still looking for "the one" and making a fool of me or maybe he isn't sure and taking it slow. It does hurt that he didn't invite me to meet the sister when he wanted me to much earlier in the relationship. But yet he had me meet her two kids later (and went to her place a week after and didn't invite me) - I don't get it? I appreciate both of your inputs and concern. I don't know whether to confront it or not right now - whether to at least get some idea of where it is at. He left my place Sunday morning and it's Tues and Halloween and no hear still (I won't make contact this time first). He already hurt me once and I don't want to be made a fool of on top of it now. He could be being sweet out of guilt - I just don't know. I do know that if it takes him many days longer to get in touch after leaving my bed Sunday morning - he won't be in it again soon. This is getting me upset. Also, I only said i wanted to see where it goes because after someone hurts you it is hard to 100% say that you know what you want with them I don't know if he is a nice guy or a big lieing user. Ugggggg! I think I need to say somethign - I'll do it in a very non-pressuring, nice way. Thanks again both of you.

[moonbeam111]

That's the point! He can be a nice guy and at the same time he may not be for you! It's not black and white, and it's not good and evil. It is life and it happens all the time when people date and they date some more, and then date others...

 

Why would he be a lieing user when he never said that he changed his mind about you?

[jamiek]

Moonbeam111 what did you mean by this "You know, with Jewish men it's almost like a pregnancy test - 95% accurate!" - what is like a pregnancy test??

[jamiek]

His actions while we're together are not consistent with his words. Even the night we broke up - 2 hours before he was hugging and kissing me and telling me I was the way to his hearT - make sensE? Even if he didn't say he changed his mind about me, it is not nice or a quality person to act so inconsistently. He never let go of em the whole night Saturday night and spoke of spending x-mas w/ me if I didn't go home. If you saw us on the street, you'd say to your friend "that guy looks so in love with that girl" - no doubt. I will ask about his intentions.