Mixed signals or am I just stupid

[WhyAmIShy]

I work with this girl I like and she recently broke up with her boyfriend (almost a month I'd say). I believe that she is "done" with him but he is always calling her and harassing her about stupid hypocritical things.

 

Anyway, on Saturday I wanted to surprise her so I left a rose on her car for her. She caught me before I got away, gave me a hug and thanked me, and we talked for a few minutes before she had to leave. Turns out that the ex had been in the store fighting with her most of the day in front of the customers so she was in need of cheering up, and I believe the rose was just the trick.

 

This is the part that I can't stop thinking about...

It may be just my imagination but I feel like ever since then she has been talking to me less, almost avoiding me... There are moments when it's like nothing happened and we're best friends, and moments when I fell like I don't exist...

 

Sometimes someone we work with will comment "you need a man that understands you and appreciates who you are and gets along with your friends etc etc etc..." and I just want to yell "I'M RIGHT HERE!"

 

She leaves song lyrics and sutff on her AIM away message/profile and sometimes it sounds like she is basically telling me to go for it with her, but it also kinda sounds like she could be talking to her ex in those messages. One that I remember from earlier is "grow into the man you desire to be and I want and I will do the same." I can interpret that as stop being shy or as talking to the ex to grow up and maybe the situation will change between them.

 

I know I should be happy we are friends at all, but ever since I gave her that rose I have started doubting myself for what is probably no reason and I haven't been able to ask her out. I am just making myself feel worse when I should be the happiest I have been in a long time.

 

I just want to give her time to deal with her psycho ex and let her know I care without her feeling that she is pressured to move on and get with me.

 

I guess that's all for now. Sorry if it's long or out of order, I just kinda typed it as it went through my head (again)... Thanks in advance for your help.

[LostInMyThoughts]

Just go for it.

 

I think people spend too much time trying to analyze the signals that other people send us. You know she doesn't have a boyfriend, and that she could be potentially interested in you. I don't think you really need to know anything more.

 

What do you have to lose by asking her out?

 

The worst can happen is she says no. The best that happen, is well, you two become a couple. Seems like a no brainer.

[Bigbilly]

The rose was a good gesture, and I am sure she appreciated it. Sounds like she is going through a rough breakup, though. As for the AIM thing, my does the same passive-aggresive BS with her IM's. Whenever I checked to see what it was (back before I stopped because it was a *really* bad habit), I often wondered if she was ever trying to get my attention, or provoke me into talking to her somehow. All I can say is, who knows. Stop trying to make sense of it, because I promise you this; you can't.

 

Give her time to sort out her emotions. I think the best you can do in this situation is a) Don't expect anything to happen, and don't get your hopes up too far b) Continue to be a nice guy, keep talking to her and trying to get to know her c) Don't come on too strong. She needs some time to sort things out, and you coming onto her too strong when she isn't ready is just gonna do a whole lot of harm.

 

Besides, getting with her so soon after such a bad breakup puts you in risk of becoming a rebound. Stay the course, but play it cool. Give her time, and wait to see what she does.

[MetallicAguy]

I think she still has leftover feelings for her ex, and the only thing you can do right now is let them settle it out. When she's completely over him (and he doesn't come into work yelling at her and what not), ask her out. It'd also be good to keep in mind, that you don't pressure her for a relationship when the time comes around (like as soon as you think she's over him, give her a few days then ask her out) but I think you know that.

[Alabama]

Just wait a little while before you make a move. It seems she still have to get over her ex. I suggest just settle for the friendship for now. Things could change in the future, but it doens't look like it right now. Just have patience. Good luck!

[RescueDiver]

I would be very careful about getting involved with her right now. You did good with the rose thing. I actually did that one time with a gal named Laura that I was interested in, but instead of calling me less... she called me more. That was kind of the turning point in our friendship. Up until then we had been on one "date" and she was nearly impossible to get ahold of. But, after that things got remarkably better and we were rarely apart after that. The problem is, I got banished to "just a friend" land where I remain today (11 years later). Every once in a while we revisit the "more than friends" issue but so far nada.

 

Anyway, in your case, chances are, she knows you're interested... the rose pretty much says that. The thing is that it's probably not a good time for her right now (and I bet she'd say that if you asked her). Now you can back off a bit and wait... then move in when the coast clears, or you can try to be her friend and stuff. Just be warned that if you go in for friendship right now you may end up like me and get stuck there. The other thing is, that if her ex- comes back and she wants him back... you could get the boot. So just be cautious.

 

Beware of the song lyrics thing too... I've gotten burned on that one too thinking they were talking about me and weren't. I'd say she's probably just venting out feelings... stuff like that isn't always about you or anyone else. It'd be nice if women were that obvious... but most aren't.

[miracle29]

One thing is for sure, if she does still have feeling for this ex...that last thing you want to do is be used as the rebound. She is not ready to move on so fast so don't rush her, if you do you will end up getting hurt and regret it in the long run. Flirt with her but don't over do it, if you do she may feel smothered and forced into something she is not ready for, and even if you succeed for a small amount of time, its just a matter of weeks before she starts acting funny towards you and goes back to the Ex. So make sure you let her take some time and don't rush her. That way if she decided to go for you, you have a better chance at a long lasting relationship and not a rebound. Rebound hurts ..you don't want to be someones emotional punching bag..or revenge toy.

[Dating Coach]

Yeah, she's got a lot of things going on right now with the ex, and any relationship she got into right now would be hard pressed to endure it, and last. It's best to back off when you see a situation like this.

 

You didn't really back off though, you bought her a flower and she caught you. I don't know what you were doing... whether you were leaving a rose with a note and your name, or whether you were just doing it and hiding without her knowing who it was, or whatever. However whatever you were doing, she caught you. Any girl that this happens too that is worth a damn would be flattered and pleased. It was and good and flattering gesture. It doesn't mean she is going to be interested though, especially if you were running off trying to hide the fact that it was you. It's sweet, but in a childlike way.

 

That was your big chance. She caught you, she knows that you like her, and... what? You left without asking her out? You left without getting her number? You just walked off? I think that was a big mistake there. Now here you are torturing yourself by wondering what her answer was. You were right there man, talking to her, she knew you liked her, why didn't you do it? You had nothing to lose by asking and everything to gain and you walked away.

 

Women like men with confidence, and confidence is something that you failed to show her that you have. You put a flower on her car and ran off. She caught you and you still didn't ask her out, you left. Not good.

Also, she knows you like her and she isn't doing a thing to get closer to you. Another bad sign. If she was excited about going out with you, don't you think she would at least be getting closer to you? She's not. Her actions are a big sign of non interest.

[ShySoul]

She has a lot of mixed emotions right now. Thus it takes time. She needs you to be there as a friend. She needs someone who will talk with her, joke with her, have fun with her, but who doesn't pressure her for anything serious. Take it slow. She probably does like you, but isn't ready right now for more. If she does become ready, you will feel it. Don't play mind games with yourself, guessing and second guessing at every little thing. Just follow your heart.

[PocoDiablo]

I agree with DiggityDog on this one. I think you've been friendzoned.

 

Next time, you need to walk up and ask her out - like a grown up man would. Nothing personal, but those words - grow up - in her profile really ring true for all of us. This is something that will take you time. You need to think what a grown man would do - and then do it. So long as it is polite, respectful, honest, etc.

[ShySoul]

You are not being "friendzoned." You are behaving like a real man - be being a friend and being there for her when she needs you. Don't lose hope or be discouraged. You are handling this right.

[PocoDiablo]

Okay, here is the reason why I think you are friendzoned...

 

I work with this girl I like and she recently broke up with her boyfriend (almost a month I'd say). I believe that she is "done" with him but he is always calling her and harassing her about stupid hypocritical things.

Being unpredictable. Being a bad boy. Feeding her emotional side. This is very powerful. Do not underestimate that a woman enjoys attention and a challenge. He is keeping her mind going.

 

Anyway, on Saturday I wanted to surprise her so I left a rose on her car for her. She caught me before I got away, gave me a hug and thanked me, and we talked for a few minutes before she had to leave. Turns out that the ex had been in the store fighting with her most of the day in front of the customers so she was in need of cheering up, and I believe the rose was just the trick.

The rose was nice, but it was not asking her on a date. It is something that a child would do to his mother. It was not coming from a position of protecting her, providing for her, it was coming from a position of trying to woo her or buy her attention. Of course, I do not know what you were talking about, but I can only assume it was about her ex, so you were behaving like a therapist.

 

Did you ask her out on a date? No? That was a chance. You missed an opportunity to tell her "I am a man. I know you have some psycho ex but I am not afraid of him. Go out with me and I will protect you from his BS."

 

This is the part that I can't stop thinking about...

It may be just my imagination but I feel like ever since then she has been talking to me less, almost avoiding me...

Okay, did I mention you have been friendzoned? Yes, it is because you did something that came off as, well, creepy and child-like. Look, nothing personal, but a real man would have said something like "Look, I know the ex is being a jerk, so why don't know go on a date with me. I promise if he hassles you I'll have my bodyguards 'escort' him out of the club." Joking, smiling, flirting the whole time - of course. Nothing serious... fun. Prove you are worth hanging out with. Prove to her that she needs to hang out with you because you are a great man. If she doesn't, then it is *her* loss.

 

There are moments when it's like nothing happened and we're best friends, and moments when I fell like I don't exist...

Well, yeah... friendzoned... If she liked you, she would be all over you, she would give you more attention than she does her ex. In fact, she would NOT talk about her ex. It would offend any real man.

 

Sometimes someone we work with will comment "you need a man that understands you and appreciates who you are and gets along with your friends etc etc etc..." and I just want to yell "I'M RIGHT HERE!"

No, she needs a man who has self-confidence, self-control (unlike her ex), and is a challenge (does not throw himself at her or leave flowers anonymously on her car.) Sorry, but it's true. No real man would hide his feelings for her, he'd ask her out. Plain and simple.

 

She leaves song lyrics and sutff on her AIM away message/profile and sometimes it sounds like she is basically telling me to go for it with her, but it also kinda sounds like she could be talking to her ex in those messages.

If she wanted you, she would call you, stop by your cublicle or house... get it? Women "vote" with their feet.

 

One that I remember from earlier is "grow into the man you desire to be and I want and I will do the same."

HUGE. Both you and the ex need to GROW. You are not quite the man she wants, but - luckily - neither is her ex. Who do you think can grow faster? Can you go check out some books from the local library on how to flirt, pick up women, stuff like that? You need to .... nothing personal, we all do.

 

I can interpret that as stop being shy or as talking to the ex to grow up and maybe the situation will change between them.

So you need to upper hand. Go learn.

 

I know I should be happy we are friends at all, but ever since I gave her that rose I have started doubting myself for what is probably no reason and I haven't been able to ask her out. I am just making myself feel worse when I should be the happiest I have been in a long time.

There is too much going on here to address quickly. Friends means you can never get with her. You re doubting yourself for a real reason, and yor body knows it - but your brain does not. You should not be happy, you have the pick-up skills of a young man (hey, I can say that because I have been there, done that, there is no guilt with that!) and all you have to do is practice!

 

I just want to give her time to deal with her psycho ex and let her know I care without her feeling that she is pressured to move on and get with me.

Um, this ... no. Wrong and right, but mostly wrong. You more need to let her know that you are a great catch and if she does not catch you, some other woman will. YOU are the prize, she needs to react fast to get you to like her. Remember, you know little about her, she needs to prove WHY you should spend time on her. If you throw yourself at her, like every other desperate fool, how are you better? How many other guys do you think do this? Lots! You need to rise above, be a man - like she says in her AIM profile.

 

I gotta wrap this up for the night, I am being paged... lol

 

Go here:

 

link removed

 

And read lots. I bet you there is an article that speaks exactly to you.

 

A real man is not going to be her therapist with nothing in return. Only a child would do that. Men know what they want and will accept nothing less. Men want a CONNECTION and an adult and mature RELATIONSHIP. Right now, you are a friend, a woman, a child, and that is not the same thing.

 

I can say that because it has happened to me over and over again for over 20 years. If anyone else can say otherwise, be sure to ask them what their real life experience with women is, or review what they have said in the past about their experiences (hint: click a username and "View more posts") and then base their advice off of where they have been.

 

Believe me, I have been in your shoes. Her BF nearly kicked my a** when he found out what he did. No, he was not reasonable, and I learned not to get in the middle of crazy people's relationships.

 

Hi Kelly and Jon! You're nuts!

[ShySoul]

Being unpredictable. Being a bad boy. Feeding her emotional side. This is very powerful. Do not underestimate that a woman enjoys attention and a challenge. He is keeping her mind going.

 

She is being harassed by a "bad boy" who annoys her. Being unpredictable isn't what the girl needs right now. She needs someone who is going to help her through it and be supportive of her. Yes, a women enjoys attention. Which is why listening to her and helping her is good, because it shows you are paying attention to her. And you by being there are constantly in her mind. Eventually she should see that the one guy is messing around with her while you are being the constant. And that is

good for you.

 

it was coming from a position of trying to woo her or buy her

attention

 

Or maybe it was simple coming from the position of trying to be nice and cheer her up? It doesn't insinuate that he is sucking up or trying to buy her affection, it could be a genuine act of kindness to try and cheer her up during a bad day. And that doesn't equate to being "friendzoned."

 

I am a man. I know you have some psycho ex but I am not afraid of him. Go out with me and I will protect you from his BS."

 

In being there and supportive of her he is telling her that he is going to help her deal with the ex. He is doing it by showing her that she doesn't have to put up with him cause she has someone who is willing to treat her right. And he is doing it without putting undue pressure on her by saying to go out with him. If he approached it as "go out with me and I will protect you from him" then she may get more frightened thinking he is only trying to get a date. If her ex is that bad, she is probably emotionally fragile and she doesn't need someone to be forceful, she needs someone to be sensitive and understanding.

 

It may be just my imagination but I feel like ever since then she has been talking to me less, almost avoiding me...

 

Odd situation, not sure how to deal with it... natural someone may try to pull back. But they can do it even if they like you. I had a girl do just that, run when we got closer despite her obviously having feelings for me. It didn't mean I was in a friend zone, and it doesn't mean you are.

 

In fact, she would NOT talk about her ex. It would offend any real man.

 

If a girl is having issues with an ex, then any real man would be willing to listen and help her out. It demonstrates a level of compassion and concern for the girl. It shows her that you are willing to help her out and that she can be comfortable talking about anything with you. I've known many people who have got together after the guy helped the women through a rough time like this.

 

Sometimes someone we work with will comment "you need a man that understands you and appreciates who you are and gets along with your friends etc etc etc..." and I just want to yell "I'M RIGHT HERE!"

 

That is what she needs. She needs someone who honestly loves and cares about her for her and will always be there for her, not someone who is concerned with what being a real man is about but actually demonstrates the qualities that make someone a real man - respect, compassion, love, understanding, etc.

 

If she wanted you, she would call you, stop by your cublicle or house... get it? Women "vote" with their feet.

 

Not the case. What if the girl is shy? Not likely to be stopping over. Also, many girls are still in the mindset that the guy should ask. In fact, that is what is being recommended. If thats the case, the girl may not want to show much interest or be afraid to. The girl that liked me, she was subtle in her hints. She did the away message/email thing as well.

 

So you need to upper hand. Go learn.

 

It isn't about getting the upperhand or learning anything. It is about being comfortable with yourself. Don't look at this as a battle in which you need to upper hand.

 

Friends means you can never get with her. You re doubting yourself for a real reason, and yor body knows it - but your brain does not. You should not be happy, you have the pick-up skills of a young man

 

Plenty of friends get together after years of friendship. So thats not something to be concerned about. You should be happy - you have the maturity and respect for people of a real gentleman. Don't worry about "pick up skills." Instead concentrate on relating to people and being comfortable with yourself. Girls don't want to be picked up, they want to be treated well and if a relationship happens then it does so when it is right.

 

Remember, you know little about her, she needs to prove WHY you should spend time on her. If you throw yourself at her, like every other desperate fool, how are you better?

 

Neither person needs to proove anything to the other. Instead you need to just get to know each other. Don't throw yourself at her, but don't act like she should be throwing herself at you. Just be her friend, help her out, and be yourself.

 

A real man is not going to be her therapist with nothing in return. Only a child would do that. Men know what they want and will accept nothing less. Men want a CONNECTION and an adult and mature RELATIONSHIP. Right now, you are a friend, a woman, a child, and that is not the same thing.

 

It isn't being a therapist, it is being a friend. And any decent friend helps a person through there problems. You shouldn't expect anything in return or then simple courtesy and respect. It is very condescending to say that another person isn't a man just because he is nervous about taking a chance, and it doesn't help the person to feel better about himself or to do what he needs to do. And if the guy is being respectful and a gentleman, then he is doing good already and being a man. It is also disrespectful to women and child to say such things as it insinuates they are somehow less or weaker.

 

base their advice off of where they have been.

 

Should those women have been with the "bad boy" in the past, take note how they are changing that around as they get older and more mature. Take note how they say they regret those choices. Yes, take note of their past experiences and how horrible it turned out. Do you want to be one of those guys to them? Or do you want to be one of the "nice guys" they all end up with?

[The Minx]

You are not being "friendzoned." You are behaving like a real man - be being a friend and being there for her when she needs you. Don't lose hope or be discouraged. You are handling this right.

 

you aren't frendzoned??? I'm sorry, but yes! If you would prefer, you can call it gay zoned. I really don't mean to be rude here but as a Woman, let me give you some advice...

 

What ShySoul is saying is how to be a FRIEND. As he said it himself. And thats it. This behavior is NOT what a Man would do. If you don't make a move quickly, the time has passed and she will asume you are not interested in her.

 

Make your move. If she says no, forget it. Remember, we don't come out and say "No." we make excueses... I'm really busy right now.... i've got so much going on... Oh, I'm doing X Y and Z. UNLESS she says "oh i can't do it then BUT how about (blank) Day/time she isn't interested.

 

I am a modern Woman. I know how NORMAL Women think. I do not presume to know what crazy women think. Remember MOST Women are normal!

 

That is my brief advice.

[PocoDiablo]

you aren't frendzoned??? I'm sorry, but yes! If you would prefer, you can call it gay zoned. I really don't mean to be rude here but as a Woman, let me give you some advice...

 

What ShySoul is saying is how to be a FRIEND. As he said it himself. And thats it. This behavior is NOT what a Man would do. If you don't make a move quickly, the time has passed and she will asume you are not interested in her.

Agreed.

 

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen you message to at least ten characters.

Stupid website made me do this. Okay, whatever.

[ShySoul]

you aren't frendzoned??? I'm sorry, but yes! If you would prefer, you can call it gay zoned. I really don't mean to be rude here but as a Woman, let me give you some advice...

 

Your opinion is respected as is your right to voice that opinion. However, kindly note that everything I have said is advice that I have given to countless guys for years and advice that has helped them to get into good, loving relationships with women. It is also advice that comes from women in long and successful marriages. thereforeeee, there are all kinds of women out there who want precisely what I say, and guys would benefit to listen to my words. It is likely to get them with the kind of girl that they want to be with.

 

Also, the fact that you would bring it up as a "gay zone" does not help your credibility. That is being rather rude and insulting and is not likely to get people to agree with you. If anything it is more of a scare tactic to get at people who are afraid of being labeled "gay" and having their sexuality brought into question.

 

I am a modern Woman. I know how NORMAL Women think. I do not presume to know what crazy women think. Remember MOST Women are normal!

 

So any women who thinks and likes the things that I say are crazy? I'll have to inform my sister of that, I'm sure she will agree and appreciate what you said about her. I'll also have to inform a couple of my best friends that they are crazy, along with the married women I know.

 

Your post may be how you think, but it is very unfair and not beneficial to your argument to label and out down any women who disagrees as being crazy.

 

What ShySoul is saying is how to be a FRIEND.

 

And the basis of a relationship is a deep friendship. What a women, or for that matter a man, needs if she is in a tough and confusing spot, dealing with an ex who is harassing her, with her being unsure of her feelings and what she wants, is a friend. Friends can grow into more. A very dear women whom I trust and admire more then just about anyone else told me that one of the best ways to get to a womens heart is to be there for them and to just be a friend during a rough spot. That is one of the big things that helped her fall for her husband.

 

And minx, I find it very nice of you that your first and only post thus far was made as a direct challenge to me and to my advice, in addition to being full of generalizations and put downs toward others. Thank you for that and I look forward to reading more of your insightful posts.

 

Stupid website made me do this. Okay, whatever

 

Yes, that is annoying. Wonder why it does that.

[PocoDiablo]

Dude, I think you took that a little too personally... and all mostly you did was attack her, not defend your point of view...

 

Remember, the whole point of the site is to offer differing points of advice. I don't know if my advice is right for this situation, and neither can you say yours is, nor can The Minx.

 

That decision can only be made by the person reading it and trying to apply it to their situation. The only way any of us can know if we gave good advice is if the person comes back and tells us the outcome. So, in that regard, shall we wait and see what happens?

 

That would be the wise thing to do.

[The Minx]

Thank you ShySoul for that warm welcome to this website!

 

Everyone, let's get one thing straight please - if you took offense to my term "gay zoned" you shouldn't, and I'm truly sorry if you did. Note that my two best friends in the world are gay/lesbien, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

I ment was there is no better firend to a woman than a gay man. You get the best qualities of both sexes, and few of there negative aspects.

 

That being said, I think ShySoul is forgetting the number one rule of relationships - ATTRACTION! Physical attraction first and formost then FRIENDSHIP!

 

Few people will come out and say it but when you first meet a person you decide in the first few seconds if you find them attractive or not. If a woman does not find someone attractive, she wont even think of you as a potential "relationship" - you are already put into the "friend" area in her mind.

That is not to say that you cannot develop a relationship after you've been put there, but it is one that generaly wont last.

 

The advice I gave in my first post was from personal experience. I was the women that WhyIAmShy is dealing with. I was having problems with an ex, and lo and behold a guy I had known for a long time that I thought was my friend started "being there" for me. Talking to me, making me feel better etc...

 

It was great! He was my firend thgouh the whole situation - exactly what I needed! A FRIEND. But I started to notice he was acting "interested" in me. I thought he was just a friend and I come to find out that he is trying to be my next relationship. I was NOT attracted to this guy - I had never thought of him like that, and suddenly I was forced to do a 180 and look at things differently.

 

Sure enough, after a while I started to think to myself, "well he really is a NICE GUY, and he has been there for me, and I'm kinda starting to feel bad for him - he just keeps trying and won't give up....what the hell, let's try it."

 

The relationship lasted a little over a month.

 

I was not attracted to him physically, I quickly lost interest and ended the relationship.

 

I found someone I was attracted to, not more than a week after and we started dating. That relationship lasted for over a year and a half!

 

Amazing, these rules of attraction!

 

WhyIAmShy - the best thing you can do is get up your courage, walk right up to her, tell her exactly how you feel and see what her response is. Most likely she will be very flatered, but doesn't like/think of you in that way. This is when you think to your self "her loss", politley say OK, then turn and walk away. It will hurt, just like when you fall off your bike, but you have to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and say "I'll do better next time". And you will, but not until you stop wasting your time on this girl, and spend it on a girl who is worthy and INTERESTED in you.

[ShySoul]

I merely pointed out the obvious flaws in the argument that was being made so that anyone who reads it can see them. Minx is free to clarify them any time she wants, but as her original post stands it was rather full of generalizations and comes accross as harsh and judgmental. I didn't take it personally against me, if anything I was most upset about the labeling of women who don't think like her as "crazy." Each person is entitled to their own opinion, and I said that I respect her opinions as I do her right to say them. I just know that this board is dedicated to helping others and the chances of a post from a newcomer in which she comes accross as being harsh, overly forward, making generalizations, and insulting, is not likely to help others.

 

If Minx wishes to continue to help others on this site, she would be better served to post in a more subtle manner displaying a level of compassion and understanding. She can get the same points accross, but be more polite about it.

 

That decision can only be made by the person reading it and trying to apply it to their situation.

 

That is precisely what I tell people on a consistent basis. That all of us can only be used as suggestions but that deep down in the posters heart, they know the answer for themselves. None of us can tell him the answers, nor can any website. But we can provide the best help that we know how. And my advice comes straight from the mouths of women in long successful marriages. Experience has shown that my methods work for most people and odds are it will work for those whom I advise. That is all I am saying.

 

I ment was there is no better firend to a woman than a gay man. You get the best qualities of both sexes, and few of there negative aspects.

 

That statement is still full of generalizations, but since it is not the main topic, I will not go into it other then to say that it assumes things that may not be the case.

 

That being said, I think ShySoul is forgetting the number one rule of relationships - ATTRACTION! Physical attraction first and formost then FRIENDSHIP!

 

I speak from a different standpoint that demonstrates that physical attraction does not necessarily come first. A recent relationship began with a women whom I met online. She later admitted to me that she had started liking me almost immediately and found me attractive because of the personality I displayed in our chats and our common interests and values. We did not even exchange pictures for 2 weeks, talked to each other on the phone at the same time, and did not meet in person for a month. Yet the attraction was there before the physical element. I have also had other women develop a crush on me because of the things that I write, before even seeing a picture of me. We struck up a friendship and then shared pictures. So the attraction towards me was based first and foremost upon shared values, interests, and a budding friendship. Physical attraction came later.

 

Likewise, every single girl that I have really been attracted to, I did not notice them physically at first. The most I ever thought was, "oh, she's cute." But then again, I find most girls cute. I had no interest in them initially in any way beyond friendship. But as that friendship grew, I began to see something inside of them that attracted me. From there intelligence to their heart, it was always something internal. Out of that grew a physical attraction. I have talked with numerous guys and girls who feel the same way. Thus, physical attraction does not necessarily have to come first.

 

Yes, attraction is important. But who says it has to be physical? Perhaps in seeing that the person is someone she can talk to, trust, and who will be a true friend standing by her, that will attract her. It worked with me, the girl had been through tough spots in the past and what attracted her to me more was that I was so patient and understanding, not pressuring her or trying to go further then we were both ready for.

 

I was NOT attracted to this guy - I had never thought of him like that, and suddenly I was forced to do a 180 and look at things differently.

 

That is the first misunderstanding. You were not FORCED to look at it differently or give the relationship a try. You made the choice to give the relationship a try. Also, the guy should not be doing it to try and get a relationship. I have always stated that it is about motivation. If you are doing it simple for the sake of getting with the other person, then the actions are tainted and are wrong. Instead, you should be doing it for no other reason then because you want to, because it will cheer her up, and because it is the right thing to do. I have never stated that it will work in all circumstances. In my experiences and in most people I know, it has worked. But rather or not it works is secondary. What is first and formost is that you do the right thing and help another person out when they are in need of help. If that leads to more, great. If it doesn't, then it wasn't because you were her friend, that it just a quick and easy excuse that is thrown around. Instead it is a matter of just not being compatible. Being a friend, being nice.... you do these things because they are the right thing to do. It's not about getting dates or relationships, or getting the girl. It's about the kind of person you want to be. Do you want to be the guy that does whatever it takes just to get with someone? Or do you want to be the guy who is caring, supportive, understanding, and gives a person what they need when they need it without expectations of them giving you rewards in return? The second guy may not get dates with everyone, but when he does get dates it will be with someone that is right for him and can appreciate all that he has to offer. In the meantime, he'll have the satisfaction of knowing he is a gentleman who cares for others and does what is right.

[The Minx]

It is obvious we have had different experiences. I find it interesting that you continue to attack me when all I did was share the truth about one of my personal experiences. An experience which is very similar to the reason this thread was started in the first place.

 

Anyway, I still stand by what I said before; the best thing you can do is tell her exactly how you feel and see what she says. She will definetely be very flatered, but don't be surprised if she says she doesn't like you in that way. Remember it's her loss not yours. Now you can stop spending your time on someone who isn't interested in you and focus on someone who is.

[ShySoul]

I have not attacked you, I have merely disagreed with your arguments and presented an opposing viewpoint. I have done so in the most polite way that I was able to. If you feel I have attacked you, I am sorry. Thank you man for posting your opinion.

[Dating Coach]

Okay I am just going to add a few things.

 

Minx said it pretty clearly, as have many others on here in the past. Guys are generally looked at as "datable" or "friends", and they are delegated into these categories pretty quickly.

 

No matter what anyone tries to say, your chances are far greater at starting a romantic relationship with someone when you are in the "datable" zone rather than the "friend" zone. That right there should be motivation enough for someone to be concerned with where they fall.

 

I could get all into how many times I was in the "friend" zone and sat there being the best guy I could for the girl only to watch her ignore me and continue to go out with other guys that IMO were trash. I was always there as the shoulder to cry on when things inevitably went sour. I kept thinking that these women would see what a great guy I was and that they would come around.

They did see what a great guy I was which is why they always came to me. They also were supportive of me as well, just as ShySoul's girl"friends" are supportive of him. The only thing was that they weren't interested in me themselves-even though they could tell me to my face that they couldn't believe I was single.

 

Why did this same situation play itself out to me about a dozen times over my life? Because I kept walking myself right into the "friend" zone, just like ShySoul is telling guys to do. I'm telling you from the experience of turning my fortunes completely around, Poco is telling you the same thing, the guys on these forums who have also been in the exact same situation are telling stories with results that also say the same thing. Taking the "friend" zone route is not going to work for you.

 

How did I start to change things around for myself? For one, I shut out the advice from people who were confusing me. Primary among those were women. To me, no one demonstrated more contradictions than women. I heard all about what kind of guy they wanted and too often I was that guy... until it came down to them dating me. Suddenly I was just "the friend", or "the Nice Guy". So I cut out listening to people who were only confusing me as my first step.

 

Secondly I started paying attention more to the actions rather than words, because if women were going out with guys that didn't fit what they said wanted even half was well as I did then the truth to me was that there was more to it than I was led to believe.

 

Thirdly I started observing guys who were successful with women. A lot of these guys were guys who I did not want to be at all, but I still figured there was something that I could learn from them. Primary amongst those was my brothers best friend Rob. Rob was only with one girl when he became a senior in High School but then by the time he was 21 years old, Rob had slept with well over 50 women. Rob was sleeping with women who were told by their best guy pal that he was a player. Yes, even I was guilty of cockblocking my brothers friend.

I even remember one night when I was sitting in a group of girls that I had just met. One was really cute, seemed very sweet, and was a blast. I heard Rob was coming and I was bummed because I knew Rob was going to come right in and steal her. So what did I do? I was low because I started undermining him and telling her about how big of a player this guy was before he even got there. Her and all of the girls were talking about what a loser he must be and were even laughing and making jokes at his expense. What happened that night? You guessed it. Rob came in anyway and hooked up with that girl, getting a BJ from her before the night was over. I was devastated...

 

Another night after I had been working on improving my game some, I saw this girl at a party I was at, and I approached her and started talking with her, determined to get her number by the end of the night. I thought things were going okay, but I left her for a few to go chat with a buddy of mine I hadn't seen in awhile. I was gone maybe 15-120 minutes. I come back and I see Rob sitting there hitting on her. You know what happened then? He took her hand and walked off with her. I find out shortly later that he had sex with her downstairs. After he had sex with her he walked her back upstairs, then left her and started hitting on other girls, getting a few numbers as well.

 

What was there to learn from Rob? I didn't want to be him, I wanted to have the ability to get women like him. I wasn't looking to hook up with a ton of girls, but I wanted the ability to just get a girl I wanted so I could form a relationship.

Guess how I met my current girlfriend of 3 years? Rob was talking to her and her friend one night and I walked right up and stole my future girlfriend away from him.

 

What did I learn from observing guys that are successful with meeting women and getting them interested? What did I learn from so called "Love Doctors" like Doc Love? What did I do to transform myself from a guy who always ended up as the "friend"? What did I learn to change things around and become the one who stole the girl away from Rob instead of vice versa? All of these things I share with people on here everyday. I share them in my Dating Guide which is posted in my signiture.

 

This isn't just my experience either. Poco could share the exact same situations and exact same failures which he turned into the exact same successes, and he does share that on here all of the time. FATKID who posted on here some also says the same types of things. He also has been there and took it upon himself to change his bad habits and learn self respect and self control. I wish he was on here more so he could also share more thoughts on the matter.

 

So what was it that I really learned? I learned that I should not keep putting others needs ahead of my own. One of my biggest mistakes was always trying to "be there" and always being available. Sure it was a nice gesture, and sure it's good to be there at times, but I along with many other guys simply overdo it.

 

You have to put yourself first sometimes, and you are not a bad guy for doing it. Being a good person is not about always taking it up the rear and getting the short end of the stick in order to help other people. You HAVE to be able to keep your own needs and goals as a top priority. I didn't say the top priority, but it should be up there. I see Shy constantly advising people to give someone the benefit of the doubt, or another chance, or to keep trying, etc but you know what? That's not always right. You can't always keep doing those things at your own expense.

You can't keep following around a girl that isn't giving you an answer in hopes that she will change her mind. You have your own life and your time is ticking away while you are being jerked around. It's time to start respecting yourselves more and start demanding more for yourself.

 

Another thing that I learned from Rob and from my experiences with success and failure is that time is of the essense, and if women can decide they are interested in you within minutes, then why are guys waiting months to find this out? This was also part of my problem. I think Rob met 100 girls by the time I asked out and got rejected by one. Why was I doing this to myself? If she wasn't interested from the beginning then why did I keep on crushing on her for months before finding out if I ever even had a shot? That's silly! No wonder I was single for so long! I owe it to myself to find out what they think of me as soon as possible because my time is valuable and I don't want to waste it being romantically interested in someone months or years before learning they have no interest back. Neither should you. There is NOTHING that ANYONE can say about that. There is no way anyone can justify waiting months or even years till finally deciding to find out if that other person is willing to give it a go romantically. You want to try to justify this Shy, go for it, but you won't be able to.

 

Also, it is completely wrong and pathetic for anyone to think that you can't find true love by meeting someone and dating them shortly after meeting them. People do this all of the time and there is nothing wrong with it and everything right about it.

 

I could keep on going but I am running out of time so we will leave it at this for now. Hope it helps.

[melrich]

I learned that I should not keep putting others needs ahead of my own.

 

That's very true Diggity. There are times when you have to put others needs ahead of your own. Like right now my partner is pregnant so I have to make lots of sacrifices...it's all about her.

 

But generally speaking, I'm talking in terms of both relationships and friendships, you do need to consider yourself first.

 

And that is not a selfish thing, it is just a recognition that if you are not happy then the relationship or the friendship won't be happy.

 

Of course compromises have to be made but you have to be able to live with those.

 

So in terms of your particular issue, don't worry about mixed signals or otherwise, act first to achieve an outcome that will make you happy, don't act as you think the other person may want you to act (common decency aside of course).

[Dating Coach]

You got it so right mel! That's exactly what I was saying.

[ShySoul]

"Dating zone" and "friend zone" are not mutually exclusive, contrary to popular belief. Unless I have just happened to meet all of the odd girls in this world, as girls constantly tell me they want a friend first and that they are open to dating friends.

 

As far as putting yourself first, what if putting her first is what makes you happy? When you truly care for someone, you want their happiness above all else. When they hurt, you hurt. When they are good, you are good. Love is when two people put they other person first and in return they get the same treatment. It is caring about someone so much that you are willing to take their burdens on as your own. It is wishing that all of their sorrows could be placed onto you instead because it tears you apart to see them hurting.

 

In our life we should strive to be the best person that we can be. We should strive to do for others as much as we possible can. My heart hurts to see others hurting. If there is anyone that I can help, I will. If I have to endure a little pain in the process, it is worth it to help another person. Thus I can not sit back and do nothing, that wouldn't be right.

 

To get this back on topic and address WhyIShy (as I was told to do so and seem to be the only one doing that), the girl has gone through a hurtful situation in the past. What she needs above all else is someone who is going to help her through it. She needs a friend, not a lover, not someone who is going to push for a relationship. You are on the right track. There is no guarantee it will lead to a relationship. However, there is a good chance. Women have told me that when a friend was there for them through a hard time, a friend they had not considered dating before, it touched there heart and made them realize just how great the guy was and they began to see them in a different light. Guess what? It lead to marriage. And even if it doesn't lead to a relationship, that is not what your intention should be. You're intention isn't to get a date with her, it should be to be a good person and do the right thing. And I hope that anyone would see that helping to cheer a person up is the right thing.

 

PS. WhyShy.... you do not need any guides or step by step instructions on what to do. You seem like you already know what you are doing and are doing a good job. Believe in yourself, follow your heart, and do what you know is right. I'm cheering for you.