Why is research such an offensive thing anymore?

[Cynder]

I'm putting this in personal growth because it doesn't really fit anywhere else. And ultimately this is probably something I will just need to learn to not let bother me, which involves growth in the end. 

I just want to do a little opinion gathering on something.  Something has happened to me repeatedly over the last couple months that I don't understand.  Maybe there's something I 'm just missing because I can be dense when it comes to other people. 

I am working on a novel right now.  I'm hoping to release it this year.  There is a scene toward the end of the book that involves both an overdose and a murder.  And I want to write it as realistically as possible.  So I went to an online community for EMS workers.  I explained this situation.  Basically my post said, "I'm an Indie writer doing some research for my novel.  If an overdose was happening in the same house where a murder just happened, and a 911 call was received, how would this be handed?  Like, would the cops have to go in and clear the scene before the EMTs come in to treat the overdose victim?  Would they just get the person who overdoses out of the house as fast as they can and treat them in the ambulance so the cops can clean up and collect evidence?"  Etc.  This isn't exactly what it said, I shortened it for brevity.  But this is the gist. 

Well, I had some people really upset with me.  And the mods of the community removed my post.  I got a message from a Mod telling me pretty much., "You've been here multiple times in the last two years asking about these violent scenarios.  Maybe you should seek therapy and learn to write happy stories." 

I had a really bad experience on a community for CPS workers.  It was the same situation.  "Hey I'm writing this novel and CPS plays a pretty big part in this one chapter.  If CPS walked into this situation, what would happen?  Would the child be placed in a  group home, or taken to a foster home?  Would the child be taken to a hospital first for observation, etc."  Well, I really got crucified.  Not only did they all assume I'm a man, but I was also accused of getting off on writing sick stories about child abuse and told I should be in prison.  And someone threatened to dox me.  

I have a Native American character in the novel I wrote for NaNo this year.  That character loses a good friend in the story.  (The friend who dies is white, I didn't just decide to kill off a NA character.)  So I went to a community for NA people.  And I asked if the tribe this character is part of has anything specific they do to honor dead loved ones.  I just thought it would be a nice detail to include, since this character is grieving. Well, of course people got mad at me about that.  I'm a big fat racist apparently and I have no right to write about NA characters because I'm not part of their culture. 

Ok, I'm sure a lot of this comes down to just how people are now.  Everything offends people.  But I don't understand how just asking questions about a person's job or their culture is such a terrible thing?  Especially since I'm trying to show them accurately in fiction. I've heard cops and EMS workers complain about being misrepresented in media.  Ok...  but then someone like me comes along and tries to show them accurately, and well, that's bad and I'm not allowed to do that.  And so many people get offended over cultures being misrepresented (and they have every right to be, I'm not saying they don't.)  But someone tries to represent their culture accurately, and well, that's racist. 

I'm legally blind, I have been since birth.  If someone came to me and said, "Hey I'm writing a book with a legally blind character and I want to show what her life is like as accurately as possible.  Can I ask you some questions?"  I would be thrilled. I'm not exaggerating.  That kind of thing would make my day.  I would be so happy that someone wants to show a visually impaired person accurately and that we won't be portrayed as helpless and incapable of living a normal life.  And even if for whatever reason I wasn't thrilled, my first reaction wouldn't be to insult this person and tell them they need therapy and that their an ableist.  

I've considered that maybe it pisses people off because they think I'm going to make tons of money off this.  There seems to be this misconception that authors are all rich.  I know several authors from working the festival circuit, both indie and traditionally published.  None of them are rich.  They all work regular jobs on top of their writing.  Authors aren't raking in cash unless you're someone like Stephen King or George R. R. Martin.  Ok, I can see why people don't want to feel exploited.  I've never asked someone to spend hours and hours helping me for free.  It's always been a few questions.  And I've always offered to give people credit in my acknowledgements if they're comfortable with that.  Years ago I could do this and it was fine.  In fact people were grateful that I was taking the time to go straight to the source and ask, instead of just doing a ten minute google search and filling my story with BS information.  Now tables have turned, apparently. 

I know my content probably has a lot to do with it.  But people should realize that not all stories are happy.  Nothing that happens in any of my books is any worse than the stuff Karin Slaughter writes about.  And yea, her work is really dark and violent.  But she's also a best selling author.  So, there's clearly an audience for stuff like that.  And she's awesome.  She deserves her best seller status. 

A lot of these people just assume I'm a guy, too.  I know that plays into it.  Society really needs to drop this "all men are evil" mentality.  It's disgusting. 

But anyway, if you read all that, thank you.  I am just hoping maybe people here can give a different perspective and help me see things I"m maybe not seeing?  Maybe asking questions like this is just some huge taboo thing and somehow I missed that and never got the memo.  It wouldn't be the first time.  Not to make excuses bu I think I am on the spectrum.  There are a lot of things involving social situations that it took me embarrassingly long to figure out. 

[Seraphim]

I think because these groups have a lot of traumatized people . 

[Cynder]

21 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

I think because these groups have a lot of traumatized people . 

See, now that's something I didn't think of before now.  I can definitely see why someone who had a bad childhood would feel called to go work for CPS.  I have a really low opinion of CPS, at least the branch here in my city.  They really screwed things up for me when I was a kid and I don't know a single person they've helped.  And that's even after taking confirmation bias into account and thinking really hard about it.  Like, am I sure I don't know anyone they've helped or am I only thinking about all the horror stories?  And I really can't think of a single story I've heard where CPS helped anyone in my city. They swoop in, make everything worse and then disappear. I also realize my city's branch could just have a lot of bad apples working there, which is probably true.  But I really wanted to put my personal bias aside when writing about them.  I'm getting off track here.  But yea, I can see that.  People who were abused want to help other abused kids have better lives. 

And I can see that with EMS, too.  But to a lesser degree.  I'm sure there are a lot of EMS workers who lost someone suddenly and so they want to work a job that helps save people. 

I'm not going to spend time writing about how minorities have been traumatized because I don't know what it's like to be a minority.  And that isn't me being arrogant.  I've just never experienced it.  It's one thing to write about a minority character processing a death in fiction.  But I won't pretend to understand what they experience on a day to day basis. 

[Seraphim]

Many EMS and police and pretty much any emergency or first line responder is probably pretty traumatized and they would have troubles with someone looking into their lives and writing about it . It would feel intrusive. 
 

I know you had no ill intentions. 

[MissCanuck]

Also, Cynder, there are plenty of keyboard warriors out there who feel emboldened behind a screen when they likely would never have the guts to say some of those things to your face. 

 

[Cynder]

30 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

Many EMS and police and pretty much any emergency or first line responder is probably pretty traumatized and they would have troubles with someone looking into their lives and writing about it . It would feel intrusive. 
 

I know you had no ill intentions. 

Idk, I guess I see it differently in those cases because the things I was asking about were facts.  I mean, if someone is overdosing, there are things that would help them and things that wouldn't.  EMS is going to follow a certain procedure in that situation.  And when a murder just took place in the same house, the cops are going to follow a certain procedure, too.  I wasn't asking "How would you feel treating someone who overdosed, etc."  I'm an artist.  If someone asked me how to mix a flesh tone paint with the three primary colors, there's only a couple answers I can give.  I'm not going to be thinking about some deep seeded thing that hurt me a long time ago.  The EMS workers are in the background.  One of my main characters is seeing the things they are doing, and the story is told from his POV.  So, as he's seeing them treat her, I need to describe some things to the reader and not just say, "They treated her."  So, did they inject her with anything.? Did they put an oxygen mask over her face, etc...?  Things my character is observing was what I was trying to figure out.  Not the psychology behind the workers doing those things.  The biggest thing though, was that a murder just took place in the same house.  When both the paramedics and the cops have different reasons to be there, how would they handle that?  It doesn't have to be an emotional answer. 

 

[Cynder]

38 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

Also, Cynder, there are plenty of keyboard warriors out there who feel emboldened behind a screen when they likely would never have the guts to say some of those things to your face. 

 

Yea... the way people talk to people online is ridiculous anymore.  You can't say anything in any Facebook group anymore without it getting twisted around into something negative.  I see this in the vendor group I'm an admin of all the time.  I'm the one that has to go in and clean up the mess when things get really bad in that group, too. 

I wish there was a way to ask people this stuff in real life.  I have a cousin who's a Lawyer, so if I ever have any Lawyer questions I can ask him and not get lambasted, at least. 

And the whole thing with the CPS workers telling me I should be in prison, etc... thinking about how that would have been different in real life is funny.  They all were set on me being a man.  And even when I said, "No, I'm actually a woman."  Well then I'm a liar too because all men are liars, you know?  So, picturing that conversation face to face is funny. 

[indea08]

These are very sensitive topics you’re asking about, and you don’t personally know the audience you’re reaching out to or understand their experiences. Similarly, they have no idea who you are. You’re literally a random stranger on the internet asking specific questions about extremely traumatizing situations. Read the room.

It would have been more prudent to put out a feeler and then wait for a response.

”I’m writing a novel that includes some situations I’d like to learn more about. Would anyone be willing to answer a few questions for me via email? I’d greatly appreciate it.”

[indea08]

11 minutes ago, Cynder said:

Yea... the way people talk to people online is ridiculous anymore.  You can't say anything in any Facebook group anymore without it getting twisted around into something negative.  I see this in the vendor group I'm an admin of all the time.  I'm the one that has to go in and clean up the mess when things get really bad in that group, too. 

I wish there was a way to ask people this stuff in real life.  I have a cousin who's a Lawyer, so if I ever have any Lawyer questions I can ask him and not get lambasted, at least. 

And the whole thing with the CPS workers telling me I should be in prison, etc... thinking about how that would have been different in real life is funny.  They all were set on me being a man.  And event when I said, "No, I'm actually a woman."  Well then I'm a liar too because all men are liars, you know?  So, picturing that conversation face to face is funny. 

It is not funny to bring up topics that make people this upset. Those are not funny conversations. It’s sad. CPS workers have seen so much terrible stuff, you can’t blame them for being overly sensitive. They’ve seen the worst of people. They’ve helped young girls who’ve been raped by their male family members. Cops have cleaned up dead children. Their emotional turmoil is anything but funny.

[Cynder]

14 minutes ago, indea08 said:

These are very sensitive topics you’re asking about, and you don’t personally know the audience you’re reaching out to or understand their experiences. Similarly, they have no idea who you are. You’re literally a random stranger on the internet asking specific questions about extremely traumatizing situations. Read the room.

It would have been more prudent to put out a feeler and then wait for a response.

”I’m writing a novel that includes some situations I’d like to learn more about. Would anyone be willing to answer a few questions for me via email? I’d greatly appreciate it.”

Well, to be fair, asking for people to email/PM you on Reddit and other sites like that is pretty frowned on.  Most communities have rules against that. 

Idk, I guess I'm just failing to grasp how it's such an emotional thing to ask about how an overdose is treated by EMS workers and who would go in the house first if paramedics had to treat someone and someone had been killed in the same house. It's not like this really happened.  And I'm not asking them to describe really messed up things they personally saw on the job.  In a situation like that, there are things the cops would do and things the paramedics would do.  That's all I wanted to know. 

Maybe this is the part of me that just doesn't grasp certain things.  I don't see how a question with a factual answer being asked to people who deal with these situations for a living would be so upsetting.  I guess that's where my mind is different from other people's.  I'll own my ignorance. 

[Cynder]

13 minutes ago, indea08 said:

It is not funny to bring up topics that make people this upset. Those are not funny conversations. It’s sad. CPS workers have seen so much terrible stuff, you can’t blame them for being overly sensitive. They’ve seen the worst of people. They’ve helped young girls who’ve been raped by their male family members. Cops have cleaned up dead children. Their emotional turmoil is anything but funny.

I didn't say bringing up those topics was funny.  I said the idea of people arguing with me in real life about what gender I am is funny.  Since they insisted I was a man lying about being female online, imagining that conversation taking place in real life is funny to me because in real life anyone could plainly see that I'm female.  That's what I said was funny. 

[Seraphim]

Because most people can’t compartmentalize actions that have to be performed from emotions . A lot of those actions are very emotion filled. It is an integrated thing .  

[indea08]

11 minutes ago, Cynder said:

It's not like this really happened. 

This is why you’re failing to understand.

For them, it DID really happen. They’ve actually walked through a dark home and found a teenager near death from overdose with a suicide note telling their family how sorry they were. They’ve heard the screams and sobs of the mother who’s been sitting with her lifeless child waiting for help, remembering how bright and full of love they were as a child. Cops can’t tell you about the steps of cleaning up a crime scene without remembering the smell of blood and rotting flesh from that one night they’ll never forget. It still pops up in their dreams occasionally.

If these people were to talk you through the steps of these events, in their mind…what do you think they’re thinking of? 

For YOU, it didn’t really happen. For THEM, it has happened and they likely don’t want to relive it.

[Cynder]

2 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

Because most people can’t compartmentalize actions that have to be performed from emotions . A lot of those actions are very emotion filled. It is an integrated thing .  

Maybe being able to separate things like that is a good thing.  But it could be a bad thing depending on the situation.  I'm trying to put myself in their shoes.  Like, I walk in somewhere and someone is having a heart attack.  I feel like I would just think, "Okay, heart attack.  This is what I need to do to save them." And then I would just go into work mode and start doing it.  I've heard people in those fields say they get hardened to it after a while.  But it's not my line of work,.  I've never been in that situation.  So I really have no right to assume how I would handle it. 

[Cynder]

18 minutes ago, indea08 said:

This is why you’re failing to understand.

For them, it DID really happen. They’ve actually walked through a dark home and found a teenager near death from overdose with a suicide note telling their family how sorry they were. They’ve heard the screams and sobs of the mother who’s been sitting with her lifeless child waiting for help, remembering how bright and full of love they were as a child. Cops can’t tell you about the steps of cleaning up a crime scene without remembering the smell of blood and rotting flesh from that one night they’ll never forget. It still pops up in their dreams occasionally.

If these people were to talk you through the steps of these events, in their mind…what do you think they’re thinking of? 

For YOU, it didn’t really happen. For THEM, it has happened and they likely don’t want to relive it.

Ok, but is it necessary to threaten to dox someone for asking these questions?  Is it necessary to tell me I'm disgusting and should be in prison? 

And, just an FYI, I am not someone who has lived an easy kooshy life.  I've had to call 9-11 multiple times because I grew up in a really violent family. The cops were at my house on a regular basis growing up.  I've seen someone die right in front of me.  I've almost died myself (had a NDE in 2016)  I was in a bad car accident and saw the driver of the other car sprawled out and bloody on the hood of their car.  So, it's not like I grew up skipping through flowery meadows having no clue how the world is.  And what I listed here is only some of it. 

But if someone asked me a question that brought up some of those memories, and I got really upset, I would just choose not to answer.  I wouldn't tell this person they're sick and should be in prison.  I wouldn't threaten to dox them and put their person info up all over the place, etc.  No matter how upset someone was, I still don't think any of that was necessary. 

[Seraphim]

My grandmother did die of a heart attack in my arms when I was a young teen. I realize not an adult, but it is a very emotional thing. I was a medical assistant in the military and even practiced exercises were very emotional and exhausting even when the situation wasn’t real. The body and mind go through significant stress.

[Coily]

I think is the perception that you want to be a vulture and profit off of their experiences, when you are just wanting to learn. Perhaps you need a softer approach, integrate into their forums a bit more; before asking questions. These are usually very insular and defensive communities, even online.

There may also be an element for some of them, that think you are plotting something, and using the writing as a cover for some heinous plot. So again, the soft approach.

As for their threats, yikes they just need to be gone from civil society.

[Cynder]

1 minute ago, Seraphim said:

My grandmother did die of a heart attack in my arms when I was a young teen. I realize not an adult, but it is a very emotional thing. I was a medical assistant in the military and even practiced exercises where very emotional and exhausting even when the situation wasn’t real. The body and mind go through significant stress.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. 

You are obviously a strong person to be able to do that in the military. 

[Cynder]

1 hour ago, Coily said:

I think is the perception that you want to be a vulture and profit off of their experiences, when you are just wanting to learn. Perhaps you need a softer approach, integrate into their forums a bit more; before asking questions. These are usually very insular and defensive communities, even online.

There may also be an element for some of them, that think you are plotting something, and using the writing as a cover for some heinous plot. So again, the soft approach.

As for their threats, yikes they just need to be gone from civil society.

Lately that has been a thing a lot of authors are having to deal with... This idea that we are trying to make money off other people's experiences. But if someone is writing fiction, it's hard to do that without telling some element of someone else's story. Like, I have a character in another novel who's a stripper.  I'm not a stripper.  And I know stripping isn't something a lot of people enjoy doing.  A lot of them are in it for the money, not because they like taking off their clothes for drooling strangers.  But when I created that character I wasn't thinking, "Wow, I'm going to make so much money off a job that a lot of people don't enjoy!"  

And I'm not saying you think this way, personally.  I'm just pointing out this mentality lately that authors have "no right to tell that story."  I've seen that a lot.  "Oh, can you believe so and so wrote a book about this subject?  That's not their story to tell!"  I have a character who's a martial artist.  A good bit of his life revolves around being a martial artist.  Martial arts can be really corrupt.  Teachers abuse students.  People take steroids.  People are pushed really hard to win competitions that they put their health at risk.  I know it's not always like this but it can be.  Once again, I'm not a martial artist.  But my motivation isn't to make a lot of money telling a story I supposedly have no right to tell. 

I'm not money motivated.  I don't expect my writing to make tons of money because it's not for everyone.  My work is dark and brutal.  My editor told me I'm going to have a really hard time selling my current novel because it's really dark and really violent, and a lot of the main characters are minors.  It's not just minors having bad things happen to them.  Minors do bad things to others, too.  The main cast of characters are teenagers. 

So are people just supposed to write about things they've experienced and nothing else?  Over and over? 

I can definitely see the second point you're making, too.  Because when there's a mass shooting or they catch a serial killer, they almost always talk about all the things this person said/wrote that should have been red flags that everyone missed.  So yea, maybe these people are thinking, "Hey, maybe this person is planning something really awful..."  I'm not, but everyone is naturally suspicious of everyone, me included. 

[Kwothe28]

You live in a country that consider "Afro puffs" in a Nintendo video game "cultural appropriation" if you are not African American. And where people wanted to dox the woman who did it, and even told her to "kys" or even threatened to kill her dog. You really shouldnt  be surprised about pressumably bunch of snowlakes throwing a fit at you for asking sensitive questions lol. 

Online is not the right way to do stuff like that. Because, as you can see, some snowflake will always get offended even at the honest question about experience of people. If you want to do stuff like that, you should do it in person. There are a lot of people or even groups who would be happy to share their experience with you. Without Reddit(or whatever you used) snowflake mods bussybodies censoring you for just asking the questions. 

[Coily]

2 hours ago, Cynder said:

A lot of these people just assume I'm a guy, too.  I know that plays into it.  Society really needs to drop this "all men are evil" mentality.  It's disgusting. 

Also THIS! Sometimes on here especially.

But yes, I think there are a lot of people who feel that if you haven't lived X or Y, you have no right to learn about it. It's extremely bizarre. These people will also target people who do ask simple polite questions, and scold them.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, indea08 said:

These are very sensitive topics you’re asking about, and you don’t personally know the audience you’re reaching out to or understand their experiences. Similarly, they have no idea who you are. You’re literally a random stranger on the internet asking specific questions about extremely traumatizing situations. Read the room.

It would have been more prudent to put out a feeler and then wait for a response.

”I’m writing a novel that includes some situations I’d like to learn more about. Would anyone be willing to answer a few questions for me via email? I’d greatly appreciate it.”

Yes. If I was going to do that that is how I would. Also you’re asking for a big favor particularly if it’s an EMT or CPS community. As an outsider I know that with rare exception they’re overworked, very stressful and difficult work, and your questions require blocks of time to address they likely do not have.

[Cynder]

2 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

You live in a country that consider "Afro puffs" in a Nintendo video game "cultural appropriation" if you are not African American. And where people wanted to dox the woman who did it, and even told her to "kys" or even threatened to kill her dog. You really shouldnt  be surprised about pressumably bunch of snowlakes throwing a fit at you for asking sensitive questions lol. 

Online is not the right way to do stuff like that. Because, as you can see, some snowflake will always get offended even at the honest question about experience of people. If you want to do stuff like that, you should do it in person. There are a lot of people or even groups who would be happy to share their experience with you. Without Reddit(or whatever you used) snowflake mods bussybodies censoring you for just asking the questions. 

It's not that I'm surprised.  I just don't understand why wanting to be accurate is so offensive.  But you're right, people are pissed about everything and out for blood these days.  Pretty soon some white person making tacos and posting about it on social media will be accused of cultural appropriation, I'm sure.  If it hasn't already happened. 

I do agree that real life would be a better place for having these conversations.  But I'm an introvert.  I don't know any CPS workers  or EMS workers.  I do know cops, but I just never felt right asking them because I know people don't like to talk about work outside of work.  I figured that was an exception on these online communities, because they are communities where people go specifically to talk about their jobs.  So, these are the people who actually don't mind talking about work outside of work.  Does that make sense? 

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, Cynder said:

It's not that I'm surprised.  I just don't understand why wanting to be accurate is so offensive.  But you're right, people are pissed about everything and out for blood these days.  Pretty soon some white person making tacos and posting about it on social media will be accused of cultural appropriation, I'm sure.  If it hasn't already happened. 

I do agree that real life would be a better place for having these conversations.  But I'm an introvert.  I don't know any CPS workers  or EMS workers.  I do know cops, but I just never felt right asking them because I know people don't like to talk about work outside of work.  I figured that was an exception on these online communities, because they are communities where people go specifically to talk about their jobs.  So, these are the people who actually don't mind talking about work outside of work.  Does that make sense? 

Yes. Talking to colleagues. Not doing a favor for a stranger writing a novel. Different if you wanted to be a CPS or EMT worker and wanted to sort of have an info gathering discussion or a question about licensing or training. 

[Cynder]

5 minutes ago, Coily said:

Also THIS! Sometimes on here especially.

But yes, I think there are a lot of people who feel that if you haven't lived X or Y, you have no right to learn about it. It's extremely bizarre. These people will also target people who do ask simple polite questions, and scold them.

Yea, like the example I gave of me being visually impaired.  I actually really like it when people ask me questions about it.  What I don't like is when people make assumptions, try to test me, etc.  I like it when I get the chance to educate someone.  I wouldn't get pissed off if some author with 20/20 vision wrote about a blind character, either. 

And a lot of these people get pissed about being misrepresented in the media... but then don't want to provide information when people ask how to accurately represent them.