Limbo: EX-GF with Anxiety

[MrWindupBird]

Awesome replies, thank you so much.

 

It’s a question I’ve asked myself if I’m drawn to helpless or complicated. I may be drawn to avoidant style relationships. I’ll skip the paragraph and just say mom was very distant, judgmental, and even physically and emotionally unstable. As far as helpless, I don’t believe. My ex is super independent financially, she doesn’t like to be told what to do, she definitely walks to the best of her own drum in terms of her attitudes and things she buys. If anything the independence has been not a turn off but something I’ve looked past. She even makes a big deal out of “barefoot in the kitchen” night where she will cook me dinner and she jokes she’s flirting with being domestic for once. I know because I came to these forums discussing my problems she’s sort of this sadness drenched cave creature here lol. When she’s not wracked with anxiety she’s always laughing and playing, we go on adventures... she actually taught me how to fish last summer. We’re building neighbors, randomly and from before we met, in our apartment complex; so I will occasionally get a text to come kill a scary spider or fix her garbage disposal. But overall she’s pretty independent. And the burrito stuff is really defeating. I feel compelled to make her cheer up, and in the past I’ve taken my failure to do so as like I’m bad at it or I’m not able to make her happy. This was my ignorance to anxiety and its unique challenges. She needed to know I’m available but also get her space. Instead I’m trying to force her to be happy and it just stresses us both out. If I give her a few hours or an evening she is usually okay.

 

I think I’m drawn to her mind. She’s so funny and so smart. And her being so stubborn and principled makes her seem so strong to me. There have been so many times where I’ve second guessed her and been impatient, but her systems for things almost always work for the best. In the end, I always thank her. This time though I just hope this breakup/whatever will be a time I thank her for bringing us closer together by triggering necessary changes and growth. I know I’ll be better either way because a truly failed relationship shouldn’t survive, but I still want a chance to be with her and address the needs of her anxiety and see if we can be happier and less stressed while being an all out couple again.

 

I told her today I’m not wanting to worry about labels. I told her thinking about it feels unnatural and stressful. I also told her I enjoy seeing and talking to her so will continue doing those things. I’m also not trying to be a therapist. She said she’s really depressed today. She spent the day doing thanksgiving with her family and it’s the first holiday without me there. I didn’t ask her to go deep into her depression. I just said she has the right to feel that way but she’s surrounded by support with her family and if they’re not enough, she knows I’m around too.

 

I have to back away a little and let her come to me. If she doesn’t, then I know what to do moving forward. I’m even okay with not having a label right now. I want one but I don’t need one. What I want is for her to tell me she wants things to work if things are better suited and changes are sustained. Because she’s said she doesn’t know the two times I’ve asked her during the deep times. She says she doesn’t know anything. She just knows she hasn’t been capable of a relationship since the breakup but doesn’t want me gone. So yeah. I can remove the label question for now, make it feel more natural and free if we continue getting closer again as we have, and I can try backing away a bit for a while where she has to reach for dates and hanging out and emotional pick me ups like “I miss you’s” and “I love you’s”.

[bluecastle]

Question: Is there a chance that you’re at least in part so drawn to making this work because of what she represents to you?

 

I’m hinting at something you referenced in another thread: your marriage. When that ended you spent a year in a similar state you’re in now, ending that cycle only when you connected to this young, compelling, inexperienced woman. I’d imagine that gives her quite a weight in your mind: the “higher” step to something “deeper,” even the “cure” to a turbulent chapter in life, “proof” that you have moved on, forward-bound. If that story is important to you and your self-conception, you’ll fight to keep it true, to validate it and seek validation through it. Stories can have more power over us than people.

 

We only get so much context in these threads, but still: from where I sit I can’t help but see a different story, one where this woman is less a path to growth and emotional salvation than...well, maybe just a bad match for long term harmony. Maybe someone who keeps you rooted in a place you want to evolve out of, rather than a vessel for evolution. Hard for me to imagine how an anxiety-ridden 25 year old can even “see” someone with your own history, as her emotional bandwidth is pretty consumed by her own emotions, though it’s easy for me to imagine how an inexperienced 25 year old could represent a “clean slate” on which to start over—that her inability to “see” you was a plus early on. And yet: how clean is that slate? It’s gotten pretty messy pretty quickly. That we can’t ignore.

 

I was briefly involved with someone a little over a year ago, a short romance (3 months) that threw me for a real loop. There was the basic stuff: she was cool, compelling, we had award-winning sizzle—hard stuff to let go of. But I’ve lived enough in my shoes to know that those things aren’t so rare. So why was I momentarily so drawn to it, as she began showing me sides that were volatile, immature, perhaps more troubled and dangerous than I could comprehend? I think a lot of it was that I was invested in a story. I’d spent the year before her working through the end of a long relationship, reflecting like a philosopher, and she was the first person I was genuinely excited about after that year of what felt like real growth—more excited, in ways, than I’d ever been with my ex. I’d assigned that power to her, subconsciously, but I think I was also subconsciously drawn to ways she and our dynamic mimicked a familiar tension with my ex. In the end, I feel that what ended up affirming my own emotional growth was being able to go: um, no—not what I really want. Too much like something I’ve already done. To connect to her I had to move backwards, not forwards. To connect to her was, plain and simple, bad for my health.

 

A little over a year ago you were pining for an ex wife; now you are pining for someone who is giving you very, very little, and for whom you are shedding all sorts of authentic desires (namely for a real, mutual romance) in order to keep close. Place those facts next to each other and reflect, humbly. Is this who you want to be? Is this what you want “romance” and “love” to look like? Is this you growing up or staying in one place? Is this you trying to replay an old story on a new stage, getting a different ending in Act Three? Is this real depth, or is it drama posing as depth? Is this the sort of thing that you genuinely feel is putting you on the path to be the person you want to be at 35, at 40?

 

I’d ask those questions, give them the same level of analytical attention that right now you’re giving what she’s offering. By making her into a puzzle in your mind you are enabling some unfortunate behavior—in her, in you. This is not what an independent spirit looks like, on either side, but more a codependent spirit. She can pay her rent—great. She is also being lavished in attention and obsession, and it’s primarily on her terms. I’m not minimizing the mental health struggles she’s dealing with, but neither am I minimizing that they have a manipulative pull over you—a gravitational force that might be moving you backwards regardless of the forward-moving story you are writing in your head.

 

It’s a process, all this. You’ll make the choices you need to make at the right time.

[MrWindupBird]

Just extremely insightful and honestly echoes a great many of things I feel I’ve been scraping against quietly in the recent month.

 

I also throw in the avoidant anxious issue where perhaps because I am always chasing her moods, I don’t ever have to really be close. My rebound after the divorce, was unhealthy lol which is a theme, but was the exact opposite. She was a smart girl but she did not wow me intellectually. She just always wanted me. She would spend every day with me if I let her. She would offer varieties of sex so freely that it at times felt easier than ordering from a menu. I was finishing off the divorce and moving and getting back into school and adjusting to child support, so my money was pretty daggone tight. She constantly bought me things and wanted to spring for expensive dinners and movies every week and this and that and on and on. She would listen to me talk about my ambitions and always lovingly, but presumptuously install herself in these goals and outcomes I want for my life. And after a few months I had never been so miserable and strangled in a relationship! I craved space. I craved freedom. I craved an empty bed in which to lie down. I craved being alone. Obviously there is a middle ground here. Just because I don’t want a me-addicted sex doll doesn’t mean the oft-distant and emotional-oscillating is the answer, but I do wonder if wanting this ex and her present proclivities is a result of having a built in shark cage to keep me safe.

 

The narrative is highly important to me, to your point. There are times where we are being close, and she is lying on me and whispers she doesn’t know anything other than that she doesn’t want to lose me. My big pitch is “I want to make you feel happy and safe, and I just want to keep making memories with you. That’s all, right now, I’m focusing on.” And narrative is a giant part of that. She loves that app that takes a second from each day and combines to make a year in one video. And I watched ours yesterday and it just felt like a knife was slowly pushing into me because I watched the date slowly get to the breakup date. We’re singing. We’re dancing in the woods. We’re lying there in my duvet, cuddling just after making love in candlelight. We’re kissing at the Eiffel Tower. I come home after being stuck in the office on Valentines Dsy and last minute she went and bought all this stuff and turned my bedroom into this hilarious cheesy love room because our night together had to be cancelled and she surprised me with it because she knows how much I care about these moments together, and we just did valentines at home instead. All this stuff in seconds on this video, a years worth. I remember it all because I cherish her so deeply and so I cherish so deeply the moments. The story is so important because I want our story to be the best. And further proof of this is me yearning over the breakup date. We still see each other often. She still texts and calls me into the early morning hours of every night. But I am still internally so destroyed by the “breakup” because the narrative I attach to it. She’s still here. I’m still the one she reaches for. There can be whatever name put on it but we still have a relationship and this is just what it is right now. It’s like I want a little guy in a robe to march out and blow a horn and say “today you are committed again”.

 

I want to be an accessible alternative for when her anxiety attacks cease. I have to climb out of the tentacles of that stuff and stop being collateral damage to the horrors going on in my beloved’s head. She told me last time I got emotional that we aren’t healing because to get back to where we were, she must feel okay with telling me no. Not that I try to order her around. Just that I’ve shown a penchant for taking “no” personally, even if I hide my disappointment; and her guilt of being herself and hurting me is too much for her presently. I want so badly to continue demonstrating emotional self-reliance and being okay with not always being together, so that all this emotional attachment that has kept us so close despite the breakup might feel more stable and like trajectories ignite toward a healthier relationship. Ultimately however I know each day is another chance for both of us to be healthier and again, wanting the cartoon guy with the horn to come announce where we are, before she’s ready and before I can trust that everyday isn’t maybe our last day on earth with this thing, is not the path to giving us our best chance in this.

[bluecastle]

You beat me to it, in your analysis.

 

Specifically: the shark tank part. Or, less metaphorically: emotional unavailability. That seems to be the major glue here, the thing you both share, as a person who is genuinely open emotionally, and genuinely available, would not have the compulsion to keep investing in this, in its current incarnation, on either side. It would be too thin, despite the hopes and hormones and diagnostics and intellectual somersaults. There is simply an enormous gap between being comfortable in something because it *might* get healthy and being comfortable in something because it *is* healthy. The former is in ways safer, because it is theoretical, a bit like working on a cool car in the garage while dreaming about the epic road trip once that one stubborn piston gets firing again; the latter is radical, meanwhile, because it is actual, an unspooling trip that is bigger than any story your brain can conjure up.

 

I can relate to a lot of this, in my own way. Won’t bore you with the details of my own journey, but one thing I realized—just my opinion here, the riffs of a guy who just turned 40—is that relationships that trigger this level of analysis and storytelling to “make sense” are in ways relationships that have run out of gas. And also: when we find ourselves deeply smitten with maze of another’s psychology it is often because we’re trying to avoid our own maze, or find the exit through another’s. There can be something secretly self-serving in allowing our selves to be subsumed by another. It allows us to stay in one place while feeling like we’re not.

 

If you drop all the storylines here, what do you have? What is real? You: 33, a father, a man hungry for connection and emotional surrender. Her: 25, just dipping her toes into adult life, and presently all-consumed with her own emotions. Serious life gap right there that doesn’t get bridged in another month of white knuckles. Meanwhile, at a point when many relationships are just taking off—rocket still on the launching pad, boosters firing—this one is soaring southward with one booster trying to do the work for two. Were this your wife and the mother of your child—well, okay, I’d be cheering you on as you navigated the turbulence after years of adventure. But this is different, and I do wonder how much you’re applying that narrative to a story that doesn’t merit it. Not every book needs to be an epic novel to be a worthy book.

 

My heart breaks a bit for you when I read that you have a “big pitch” that you’re trying to sell someone on, as I think sincere connection shouldn’t involve a pitch, and especially because nowhere in that pitch are your own needs and feelings or even the sense that this person can see them. What’s up with that? Is that your own emotional unavailability? The pendulum swinging between a few places to avoid that “middle ground” where things are in fact much richer because what is real is bigger than what is theoretical? Worth asking, perhaps.

 

I’m sure she’s great, in ways, and I do know how hard it is to let go of something that once seemed so promising. Ride it out, but be honest about the experience of that ride. In the end, that is always the only thing that is real.

[MrWindupBird]

Assessing things for as they are is definitely the best and most simplified idea. I appreciate your wisdom so much.

 

I told her a few nights ago I was letting go of the stress of the relationship. That I can’t be the therapist anymore. And that I’m only here because I’m choosing to be, and just like her, I can leave at anytime. I also told her that if we continue to see one another then I will make romantic gestures and attempts, wanting to kiss her and whatever. I told her I’m okay with hearing no and respecting her space when she’s in the dark place, but she has to know I’m here for closeness and because I still am attracted to her romantically. She agreed that as long as I’m okay with her needing her force field sometimes she’s okay with me being romantic toward her. She then said she’s noticed a lot of change from me. She is feeling like she can tell me no without hurting my feelings. And she’s feeling like I’m not trying to control everything anymore.

 

The talk seemed to do wonders. She’s texted me more than ever since the breakup. Called me more than ever since the breakup. She’s made tiktok videos she knows I’ll like and sends them to me after I’ve told her goodnight. She FaceTimed me today for a half hour from a furniture store to get my input on her buying a couch. She then asked me over to help her put it all together. This is part of a joint process we agreed to undertake a few months back when I redid my whole living room and kitchen. She then asked if I wanted to put on Christmas music and put up her Christmas tree together. I definitely wanted to. Then she took me out to Mexican, where she paid, and we spent the evening cuddling and watching our secret guilty pleasure Big Brother, and I successfully limited my physical intimacy with her to just making out and staying light and flirty. Sex is not a good idea right now for either of us, and I’m okay with that for now. We shared a really beautiful goodbye kiss where the positive tension is definitely building, but it’ll stay in the oven for now; and I told her bye for the night. She waited a few minutes and then texted me all evening until I just told her goodnight and took a shower.

 

Just a wonderful day. I’m nowhere near out of the woods, and she did get to miss me being at her family’s for thanksgiving much of the week. But things felt different today, a ton of playing and flirting and teasing. I’ll just keep being ready to stick and move. It’s one day at a time and it’s using good momentum to make loving memories and for me to give myself permission to have power over me. There are bigger issues that need addressed like her needing professional supports, but we do things patiently if we want them to work and want them to matter.

[Wiseman2]

Ok it sounds like a classic case of she wants more of a committed bf connection and you want more sex when you want it. Hopefully you'll both be able to meet in the middle and get out of this analysis-paralysis you've been stuck in.

She is feeling like she can tell me no without hurting my feelings.

[Jambalaya421]

Assessing things for as they are is definitely the best and most simplified idea. I appreciate your wisdom so much.

 

I told her a few nights ago I was letting go of the stress of the relationship. That I can’t be the therapist anymore. And that I’m only here because I’m choosing to be, and just like her, I can leave at anytime. I also told her that if we continue to see one another then I will make romantic gestures and attempts, wanting to kiss her and whatever. I told her I’m okay with hearing no and respecting her space when she’s in the dark place, but she has to know I’m here for closeness and because I still am attracted to her romantically. She agreed that as long as I’m okay with her needing her force field sometimes she’s okay with me being romantic toward her. She then said she’s noticed a lot of change from me. She is feeling like she can tell me no without hurting my feelings. And she’s feeling like I’m not trying to control everything anymore.

 

The talk seemed to do wonders. She’s texted me more than ever since the breakup. Called me more than ever since the breakup. She’s made tiktok videos she knows I’ll like and sends them to me after I’ve told her goodnight. She FaceTimed me today for a half hour from a furniture store to get my input on her buying a couch. She then asked me over to help her put it all together. This is part of a joint process we agreed to undertake a few months back when I redid my whole living room and kitchen. She then asked if I wanted to put on Christmas music and put up her Christmas tree together. I definitely wanted to. Then she took me out to Mexican, where she paid, and we spent the evening cuddling and watching our secret guilty pleasure Big Brother, and I successfully limited my physical intimacy with her to just making out and staying light and flirty. Sex is not a good idea right now for either of us, and I’m okay with that for now. We shared a really beautiful goodbye kiss where the positive tension is definitely building, but it’ll stay in the oven for now; and I told her bye for the night. She waited a few minutes and then texted me all evening until I just told her goodnight and took a shower.

 

Just a wonderful day. I’m nowhere near out of the woods, and she did get to miss me being at her family’s for thanksgiving much of the week. But things felt different today, a ton of playing and flirting and teasing. I’ll just keep being ready to stick and move. It’s one day at a time and it’s using good momentum to make loving memories and for me to give myself permission to have power over me. There are bigger issues that need addressed like her needing professional supports, but we do things patiently if we want them to work and want them to matter.

 

wow man,youre such a great guy.

[MrWindupBird]

Still chugging along here. We had a series of close days together and we were getting into habits where we were kissing more and cuddling more. Then she said she worries we’re doing it too much. I immediately reacted as I thought she was saying we should split because I wanted her to know that if she wants to split then I will definitely give her that. She was very alarmed that’s what I was thinking she meant and just said to not be as physical right now. I told her I struggle with following sometimes because I think we’re having fun and all of a sudden we need steps backwards. She said she’s just scared of everything and she changed the topic.

 

She had semi stuck to it. She’s been on her period which is always a tough week for her. We hung out once with me saying I’d kiss her hand and we could just chill. She was good with that. She then wanted me over the next night and I got a little peck at the end of the night with her saying she’s just not feeling well. So that’s two nights she opts out and I take notice but don’t say anything. Today we were both in the office and sat together for a training. We ride together. She wanted to take me to get Mexican after work. I told her only if she... kisses... me! When we got home and said bye for the evening. She didn’t agree to but laughed. Well she came through. We ate and then went and picked out some stuff for crafts, had so much fun in the crafts store and just laughed and played before we left. She did lean in and kiss me when I got her home, and we had a few minutes in the car with each other making out and stuff. Then she went inside. She spent most of the evening knitting me a hat with the yarn we picked out together.

 

Tonight I talked about things for a few minutes. I just said that things had been going better and I still want another chance where I’m responding much better to the anxiety and the days apart. She let me go on for a few minutes... this was on snap... and finally she said she doesn’t want any guys or girls but just her cat and she’s just “chillin”. I asked if I messed up mentioning things because we hadn’t mentioned anything in a while and she seemed surprised I thought I’d messed up and said again she’s “just chillin.” So yeah. That’s where we are.

 

She’s been leaning on me way more than normal recently and has been letting me do a lot of the things and reaching out when she’s struggling with something. I think she would really struggle with cutting me off right now. I think an ultimatum and two weeks of no contact would probably succeed in forcing her into action. But I don’t want it that way. I want her to just put the past behind us and see that we’re having great days and weeks and that she can open up again and we’ll take it slowly but with some assurance and mutual romantic effort. It’s like she’s defending this decision to “breakup” in spite of her feelings and actions, and it’s just so confusing and oftentimes defeating.

 

She let me know tonight that she forgot to fill her meds today and will likely be dissociating tomorrow for much of the day. I see this as a tremendous progress in honest communication from her, where before she just would try to make me happy but also try to be alone, and I also see it as a chance to give her the space and silence to show her I have come to respect her special needs and conditions.

[bluecastle]

Tough line to walk, all that.

 

I'd just try to be as honest with yourself as possible, about how all this making you feel and what you're getting from it. Were I to make an observation about what I see, drawing a line from your first post to this last one, it's that her fear about everything remains right where it was: the thing you both spend a lot of time thinking about, feeling out, giving power to. She's as scared to be with you as she is to lose you, and both those fears are validated by you, perhaps because you now find yourself feeling something similar about her. Fear is the glue here, you could say.

 

Rather than giving her an ultimatum—which rarely works, and rarely feels authentic when it does—I'd give one to yourself. I'd come up with some kind of timeline in which you need to see improvement, and I'd also be firm, with yourself, about what improvement looks like, and feels like. The above, for instance? It still has the tone of a therapist analyzing a patient, where improvements are measured more in tiny shifts in her—being open about an upcoming "disassociating state," for example—than in you feeling more nourished and less skittish. I can understand how that is progress from a therapist's point of view, but is it progress from a romantic point of view?

[MrWindupBird]

I was sorta using Christmas I think as a timeline for myself. Where I will at least maybe start dating and start treating this as a more long term possibility than an immediate project. Last meaningful relationship that ended for me, it took me a year to get serious again for someone. I have a few former friends/girlfriends/casual something somethings that caught wind of the breakup and have been testing the waters. In different degrees they all say “I know you still love her and you’ll go back to her when she’s ready but we could hang out and just be whatever until then.” I feel guilty being so emotionally unavailable and involving someone else just because I like the sex and I like the company, but having these other girls around who know what they’re signing up for feels less guilty I guess? I had a very sweet and attractive girl come on kinda strong a few weeks ago. She’s a receptionist and we had a quick little funny interchange and she found me on social media, but after a few days I told her I know I sound like “that guy” but I’m in a weird place with my ex and I didn’t think it was right to let her think I’m ready to date and whatever. So she was like I understand and still texts but I don’t always get back to her super quick. It’s funny how being the sweet but emotionally unavailable guy is a turn on more than being the ultra committed ex lol. Casual stuff with clued-in ex flings just strangely seems more socially responsible at this point.

 

I also think it would make me feel more like myself again in a way. I’m finishing my last week of this semester for graduate school so my time opens up significantly, and I’m excited to be working on a novel that’s been foaming in my brain for a while with the time. If my ex would be on the brink of things I’d rather not muddy the waters at all, but sitting around for more then three months feels excessive. I like being social. I like female company.

[bluecastle]

Just going to make some observations, to snack on or discard as you see fit.

 

What you're indulging in right now—one foot kinda in one door, another tiptoeing toward other doors—is a bit swampy. Reverse it: Would you have any interest in exploring romance with someone who, in her mind, had someone else flagged for "long term possibility"? Would you want to be a stop-gap until some other dude—young, skittish, obsessed with his own hurt—figured out how to manage his chronic fears of existing? If the answer is no, then why even flirt with being that person for a bit?

 

Similarly, put yourself in the shoes of your emotionally fragile quasi-ex you are presently gambling your emotional chips with: Why would she "come around" or "warm up" to someone who she may suspect, on some cellular level, is keeping a few orbiters warm, or warming himself with that buzz? Or: Do you really see her fear of being with you abating once you've scratched some itches with the ghosts of girlfriends past or female friends with whom you nurse a little charge?

 

In other words, at least to my eyes, you are coming across a lot more like an emotionally unavailable man to every women in your life than someone who even wants to be ultra-committed. That you mentioned a novel simmering in the cauldron of your mind doesn't shock me, as I'm getting the impression that you like the story of romance a bit more than the actual experience of mutual emotional surrender. And I wonder if some of the "guilt" you feel is connected to all that, to seeking comfort in stories more than in connections.

 

Look at the various women you're entertaining right now: one is too "scared," others don't mind being a saucy placeholder. The through-line here is that these are versions of romance that make for good stories, and stir a lot of the feelings connected to romance, while being next to impossible to imagine becoming romantic realities. Engage in any one of the above and you are distancing yourself from authentic romance; engage in more than one simultaneously and...well, it compounds the distance. The key ingredient—genuine vulnerability—remains in the spice cabinet, gathering dust as other spices sub in for it.

 

I'd explore that a bit, or at least take note of it.

[MrWindupBird]

Yeah I mean I felt like I emotionally surrendered to my ex, who I somehow burdened so much she took our label and she took a lot of my access. It makes me feel like I’m not masculine enough or something and I’m being taken advantage of where I feel compelled to have these timelines and to have these reinforcers that I am wanted and I am worthwhile. Maybe I put too much weight on sex and overt desirability in terms of judging if she is attracted to me where she thinks spending so much time talking to me and just sitting with her fingers in my hair, like that is her currency for attraction if that makes sense. My other relationships girls want to please me and make me happy and they eventually find sex and clinginess as a way to demonstrate I’m what they want. Or maybe I’m making excuses for her, and she just doesn’t want me. I dunno.

 

I feel like I live my life a day at a time. It’s honestly a nightmare and living hell. I’m constantly inventorying and judging each day. Part of me worries I’m so neglected of substance it’s my subconscious desperate to find that solid ground of something. Like a soul that is forever thirsty in a desert it created. I’m not as bad as I used to be, and people are drawn to me and volunteer that I’m a good person and I help people; so it’s seemingly mostly self-destruction I think that ensues from this everyday sprint toward battling my own impulsivity. I torture myself about a timeline for her and I to get back to flush. Where she can admit she’s still with me despite the invisible walls we’ve been dancing around. She’s always begged me to give away this need to maximize each day. To just let the river of life do some of the work for once because at some point this white knuckle mentality, as coded and internalized as it is, is just mad vanity and self-mutilation. But it’s all I know lol.

 

Thank you bluecastle. I appreciate it a lot.

[bluecastle]

Yeah I mean I felt like I emotionally surrendered to my ex, who I somehow burdened so much she took our label and she took a lot of my access.

 

Could this not just translate to two people who didn't quite work out? Does it have to be such an epic story?

 

I get the sourness that comes with wanting an epic from something that proved thin, I do. I've had things not work out, and it stings. But this idea that you "burdened" her so much? It's kind of self-absorbed, if you'll forgive the expression. It's like: the relationship was about you (the surrender) and now the breakup is all you (the burden), a narrative that makes her kind of an ancillary character in your personal saga more than a human with agency.

 

It's a process, I know.

 

I'm just saying—something to file away as you navigate this—that there's nothing wrong with saying that this is over, because it's not enough, and then dusting off for a bit and seeking a connection that's stronger, or even just saucier, which will likely be with a person who is a bit stronger internally and closer to where you are on the journey of life. The depth and growth and fire you're hungry for—the real epic—may come from making a step like that, and learning to just accept reality for what it is, rather than in trying to bend reality to support a fantasy in your imagination.

[MrWindupBird]

That’s an excellent point. I mean I do definitely look at all this with me centered in, maybe to convince myself if I have the control to ruin it then I have the control to recast it. I try to not blame others for my unhappiness. If I die it’s because I didn’t do enough to stop it. It’s my mentality.

 

The thing that’s inspired me to change is the slow realization that my conception of a sustainable relationship is perhaps unrealistic. Immediate gratification in a relationship has always been my modus and maybe that’s a principal contributor to my chasing my own tail like this. Feeling stressed if we don’t have sex everyday. Feeling stressed about time away. Feeling stressed if she still is friends with a coworker who badmouthed me in the distant past. I think I lied to myself that if I just hide it and let it bother me internally then it’s okay because it doesn’t hurt her, but you can make a planet invisible and it’ll still have gravity if you know what I mean. She will feel that pull of dissatisfaction. And objectively these are unhealthy mindsets that I believe I have to change, even without her. I can find a lady who mirrors these... my... nasal tendencies. Clingy, paranoid sex addicted are pretty common lol. And I have certainly seen that movie. It’s a sugar high that ends with me cheating/straying and them hurting and blood and guts in the street lol.

 

But I also Saint my ex. All the time. So often I see her as having issues she doesn’t try to inflict on anyone, and if I can just get to where I’m more emotionally autonomous and capable of respecting her as someone who doesn’t always need someone to complete her.... I dunno. Maybe we can keep and build upon the good and make the bad the past.

 

I spent time with another girl and it just felt like this weird, vampiric masturbation. I told her to light candles by her bed and her shower and we made an hour of it. And then when we got going, immediately I just wanted it to be over. The girl was holding me afterwards, laughing and playing, saying we should go again. Our whole post-whatever I was just waiting a half hour to not be rude before leaving, and I just kept thinking about my ex and I’s date to see Christmas lights next week, where she looks so beautiful in her hat and scarf and when it’s cold her skin is so pale and soft. I’m surprising her with dinner and a late night slow dance in the park, and then we’re watching a movie and she wants me to give her a massage as long as both of our bottom underwear stays on. I’m really excited lol.

 

I’m shutting down dating other people for now. Maybe in a month it won’t but right now it feels inappropriate and even predatory. And I appreciate all the input and stuff. It’s very cathartic to talk about things.

[Jambalaya421]

whoah.

 

youre lucky to even get other dates. some of us dont have that ability. I was on singles site etc for a month and only met 1 gal, who is damaged and reluctant to meet

[MrWindupBird]

It’s mainly just artifacts from tinder before my ex and I got together; and I also work in a heavily, heavily female-dominated field which is a bit of a cheat code in meeting younger women.

[boltnrun]

Is a relationship with or dating a "younger" woman a goal of yours?

 

Are you not attracted to women closer to your own age?

[MrWindupBird]

Well I’m 33, so I think in the scale of 22-65 year old women who are working age, the younger individuals on the spectrum already fall around my age.

 

If we’re talking exactly my age, then my wife was a few years older than me; so I wouldn’t rule out anyone in the future due to their age if we form a good connection.

[MrWindupBird]

Interesting week.

 

I cracked a little a few days ago. I asked for another chance. Things had been doing well, and I asked if the wall could come down and she could give me another chance. Trust me, being emotionally sober a few days later, I know this broke rules for strategy and was a mistake and illogical. She said she appreciated me asking and said "but I'm not giving out chances right now." I took her Christmas presents over to her house and told her this might be goodbye. She became distraught. She said she doesn't know why I have to disappear, and she thought things were going well. She cried as we opened out presents to one another, and she ended up holding me in her bed for a few hours as we talked. She showed just how vulnerable she is, where she told me she believes no one in the world cares about her as much I do. She said she does not want to break up again and getting back together right now would risk that because she hasn't helped herself and she's not ready. I told her I was being dramatic and I'm not going anywhere. We agreed the talk was necessary, and that it was a step toward getting past egg shells and being honest to one another. I told her that we can just keep hanging out, and let things happen naturally. She said that's what she thought we were doing, but she doesn't want me to hurt.

 

We went on a date the next night and had a lot of fun. She's been sick lately, but she said I could kiss her at the end of the night. As the night neared to an end, she started getting really anxious and sort of shutting down. I made some jokes and she started feeling better, but I told her we didn't have to kiss or whatever and we could just call it a night. She seemed concerned but said okay. As she was about to travel for her family's house and stay for several days util Christmas Day, we wanted to see each other again one last time; and we spent yesterday morning and afternoon together, and she took me to breakfast and we had a good time. She said at the beginning of the morning that she can't talk about anything deep. I simply apologized for being sloppy the other night and told her I wanted to drop the three month timeline because it's pointless and just a point of pressure.

 

Now I am contemplating ways to get a reset here. She will not go to therapy. She said she does not think she can right now, and that she knows she should but she can't. We've been agreeing this week that we need a reset. Somehow. Typically I ask her before outings and hangouts together about certain romantic gestures, and she will agree or disagree, and we will go from there with me excited to show her I can casually hear 'no' (though I did get emotional this week with her no to my request to get back together.) She admits she is so worried about the consequences of letting her walls down, where I will think we're getting back together or we're doomed forever depending on what she does or agrees to. I want desperately to get a reset from this.

 

I am considering a month of no contact. I research so much about this, and it's typically used right at a breakup. My ex seemed surprised I would suggest this, but she agrees we need a reset, and she even said that while it would be so difficult and painful that she is leaning on me so heavily all the time that it could help her get on her feet. For me, I hope it would help me switch my mode of thinking where I am constantly trying to respark what was, and maybe I could get some space between the failed romantic relationship so I could lay tracks for a new one. I would also like to demonstrate my self control so that she could maybe suspend some of her guard if she trusts me to handle things slowly and responsibly. My fear is that she seems to think we've made some progress, though I am not feeling her romantic shield going down; and this seems like a rock right now that just will not budge. We share so much greatness, and we keep agreeing our connection is incredible and worth hanging onto; but it's been three months and I feel like I'm sitting frustrated at a locked door. She said one of the sources of defensiveness is that I am so certain that this is what I want, while she says she knows nothing and that the idea of even thinking about things makes her freeze because she is weighing her fears and her hard decisions to breakup against her feelings and connection to me.

 

I know the consensus on here is often to simply let go and move on. I expect that, and I respect it. But I still have the goal of fully reconciling. I worry my no contact idea would defeat progress where so many people with this goal would really like to be in my spot with my ex, with constant communication and hangouts. I desperately want to melt away from of the reflexes her and I share toward egg shells and trying to mind read and see the future. If mutually agreed upon cold turkey for a set amount of time could help with that, it's something I want to consider.

[bluecastle]

I'll describe what I'm seeing, reading this thread. Take it or leave it, however you see fit.

 

In the month since you started writing about this the situation has gone from bad to worse, at least in terms of it evolving as you initially wished. Where ostensibly you guys once bonded about various things, it seems that your main bonding point—the thing you're both obsessed with—is her fragility, fear of you, and a vaguely shared idea that those fears are fueled by an otherworldly connection in spite of the inability to connect in a genuine manner. So the role she now plays, fully, is the Frail One, since that has been validated on a 24/7 cycle for a few weeks, just as the role you now play is the Velvet Gloved One. This is who you are, together, label or not.

 

And why, really, would that ever change? Yeah, both of you kind of hate those roles, but in playing that role she gets a doting man who is perhaps more into her than he ever was when there was a label, an actual relationship. Case in point: When you were momentarily sincere, vulnerable, and honest—about wanting to be with her—all she had to do was cry and become distraught for you to revert back to handling her like plutonium. Do note, as you outline the next chapter in your head, that you are literally measuring "progress" in being pushed away, becoming only more interested the further you get from what you proclaim to want. That is the story of the past month, an orgy on eggshells without the actual sex.

 

At this point I'm not really sure if you want to be with her, to be completely honest, and I do wonder if she suspects this as well, in her bones if not quite the brainstem. I think you like the game, the drama, the performative Murakami-like surrealism of it all. As a relationship between two people, it's all pretty thin, after all, becoming thinner every day as you white knuckle the reed of it all. But as a story? Well, it's a good story, and I think you like being both author and character; be it conscious or otherwise, you are choosing the pleasure of being The Thing She Is Scared Of over the pleasure of open, expanding, mature connection, the story of what could be over what is. If you truly wanted more than a story? Well, you'd be bored to tears and starved for genuine connection, genuine vulnerability. Some huff oxygen, others paint thinner. It is, in the end, a choice.

 

The one month reset plan? Sure, give it a go. Maybe it will work, or maybe it will feel like banging your head against a new locked door—but, hey, at least it'll be a new door, a new story, perhaps even the reality of what happens when heads bang against doors: the reality of bruises and boredom that can eclipse fantasy. Maybe it leads you to a third plan, where you decide you're ready to walk through doors instead of examine the woodwork of the thresholds and frames. And if that can't be with her? So be it.

 

Thing is? You've got to chill with this idea that everything has to be "mutual." Doesn't work that way. You are allowed to have your wants, your needs, your beliefs, and to act on them. You guys do not want the same thing right now, at all, so nothing here is mutual. Mutual ended months ago, replaced by the hope of mutual, and the illusion of it.

 

In other words, she will likely not want to go a month without talking to you, because she likes things just as they are, where every tantrum is rewarded with compassion. Can't say I blame her. She sneezes and becomes the sickest girl in the ward, sheds a tear and is the most vulnerable damsel in the meadow. If you want to see if something can change, if things can go deeper, you're going to have to find the faith and self-respect to move your own two feel in that direction, regardless of hers.

 

I hope that doesn't sound too harsh. I've wallowed here and there, so I get it. In ways. I've never quite had this level of lust for snowflake-y stuff—the caveman in me needs more flesh and the intellectual in me needs more interesting ideas to chew on than another person's tender psychology—but I've been twisted up in love and lust, and in trying to will stories into reality by using others as projection screens. Still, just going to call it like I see it, to plant some words in your back pocket. Maybe they resonate now, or maybe in a few months. All good.

 

Last thing to remind yourself of from time to time: past all the thoughts and feelings in your mind, this is your actual life being lived. How we spend are time becomes us, and time is not infinite.

[MrWindupBird]

Everything you say is very true. Things have become highly warped, and it is not getting closer to what I want in the end, and I'll say it honestly but don't dare say it anymore to her---I want to marry her and take care of her forever. I do. I know most people would rather jump into a woodchipper than put up with someone capable of this level of labyrinthine self-loathing for even a short while let alone forever; but if she can give me just the commitment and we can return to regular intimacy, then I am all hers. And I am not getting that right now. I just am not. I try to tell myself well this is what she is and in a weird way I am still getting her "all", but it's not enough and it's kept me so frustratingly paranoid I barely even remember my own name.

 

I know your reference likely emanates from my username, and I appreciate it a ton either way lol; but the other day when I asked her if self-harm was possible and whether or not I should be concerned, there is this girl who is so complicated but charming, but who is so obsessed with sadness and unavailability; and she is just the archetypical love interest of a Murakami protagonist who either is dead or doomed no matter what the man does. In my head I have told myself that I was a hopeless nihilist throughout my twenties and now maybe seem some light at the end of the tunnel where I am more involved in a career and more motivated to have a family and build a life with someone I love. I feel like maybe her and I could discover it together, meaning a reason to experience life, but it is so painful anymore.

 

The month might empower me. As intelligent and strong as I find her to be, she also might be spoiled so incredibly much that she is delusional in how just utterly and completely she takes me for granted. I lived in a delusion before, and when I was forced to wake up from it with my divorce, I had to make peace with being a real life Earthling and so I did. If I could seize some of the power in this tragic, painstaking mess, and then perhaps she might be forced to leave her castle and come to me. I dunno. Thank you for your attention, though. I mean it.

[bluecastle]

Did you mention having a kid in an earlier post? Just curious, given your talk of family and life-building with this woman.

 

About that? Last thing I ever want to be is a buzzkill, but how do I say this? Can only go the direct route, which goes something like: Marriage? Really? I just find that interesting. Here's a woman who is quite young, hardly able to deal with the basics of life, is not remotely interested in you romantically in any genuine manner, and who has offered you very little substance to hang a hat on. And all that adds up to what you want to commit your life to living alongside?

 

Because that is what you actually have. Focusing on what it theoretically could be? That's choosing stories over reality, and it's dangerous. Or, as the kids say, kinda #basic. You even framed it as a classic if/then hypothesis: if she could give you the commitment, if you could return to regular intimacy, then you will be all hers. Romantic to write, I know, since you get to feel like Romeo under the balcony or Bukowski at the bar. But it's also delusional.

 

I could say the same thing about Emma Stone or Penelope Cruz, after all: if either of those women decided to be awesome partners to me then, yeah, I could see us really going the distance. Alas, those women exist on screens and billboards and in magazines, offering me very little in reality. Your quasi-ex is really not so different, if you allow some humility and open yourself up to examining why you are so drawn to something that doesn't seem to exist.

 

I don't know your history, who you are. But I can't help but feel that you see in her some kind of vessel to atone for past sins, to rewrite a past story (marriage, kids?) with a different ending. Drop that storyline and I think you'll see that you are splashing around in a puddle while trying to convince yourself its an ocean. She's just not that deep, I'm sorry. At 30 she'll probably just chuckle at the drama queen she was, mixed up with a dramatic guy for a bit, a weird purgatory of sorts that she had to play around in before deciding to grow up. And when that decision strikes? She is going to shed the things that reminded her of that strange time—you, likely.

 

At some point—sooner than later, I hope, for your sake—you're going to have to remove her from the petri dish and take a hard look at yourself. She could wallow around in this playground stuff for another few years and still be in her twenties. I'm 40 today, was 33 five minutes ago, so take my word (or don't) that you're going to be my age in a few blinks. What shape do you want to be growing into as that moment dawns? Do you feel yourself on the road to that right now, or do you feel yourself growing backwards, into a state you've been in before, back when you were her age?

 

Time is relentless, and only moves in one direction. We can fight that, but it's a fight we all lose.

[boltnrun]

I would add to that, do you want to get to age 40 and still be waiting for this woman to decide if she wants you or not?

[MrWindupBird]

I definitely don't to be here when I'm 40. The marriage thing was from her, up until the breakup. Rings. Locales. Decorations. Whatever. The continued proximity and time together puts my emotions and logic at odds, obviously, where my dreams and attachments just haven't faded as quickly as would likely be more freeing to me regardless of this outcome. I don't talk about marriage at this point with her, as I'd look like a desperate fool to her. She had just shown me glimpses of a peaceful direction in life where I can cash in my chips and settle down with someone I adore. Cold water's been poured on that, but because we still are in this whatever, things just linger on. I have to let that die. I have to step back from being her caretaker. And I have to just be me and quit playing this game of hand-and-foot bandaid and accept that we're eventually going to either agree to move forward together or apart.

 

Our whole relationship has happened at her pace. We circled one another a few months before she finally used a birthday present to drop a major hint for me to finally make a move on her. After that it was still a few months before we called it "official." Since then we've traveled the world and been each other's everything for a year and a half. It took her a few months to be comfortable coming to my place. Fast forward six months later, she slept here everyday for weeks at a time. This week during my little thing where I asked for another chance, she said "you've always struggled with me being slow, and I don't want to say yes too soon before I'm ready because it could ruin it. Then we'll have even more pieces to put back together." So I don't know. I am used to waiting for her and just deciding for all the great things we've shared, she is different and does things her own way. I've let myself believe this is just another example of her taking her time and being her own way. Maybe she never wanted me and would be at another guy's feet instantaneously because she actually wants him. And I just lie to myself. I dunno, but I appreciate everyone's perspective a bunch. Thank you guys.

[MrWindupBird]

I decided to take time. I told her I didn’t want to pretend we were resetting anymore when she pours cold water on us every time we start getting somewhere. She was gone for the holidays and I’d drifted into some pessimism. I left her a short thing on text saying if she wanted to work on things she knows I’m around.

 

She reacted with more emotion than she’s shown since the breakup. She asked why should she give us another chance if I make her cry so much. Why should she put down the walls if every time she feels like we might have a chance, she ends up crying. She hasn’t talked about second chances once before now, and I was taken by surprise. We had gone on a date before she left for the holidays and we had a very sweet time but I felt the force field and let it make me melancholy days later. She said we’d had the date but now I’m talking about leaving, and talking about these things makes her so stressed, and why can’t we just chill and go slow and stop analyzing everything constantly. “No one needs to leave. There’s no reason. I thought we were resetting. You act like I don’t want you. You act like you’re at the bottom of some list. There is no F’ing list.”

 

I told her the force field is screwing with me and our interactions feel sabotaged. And it’s obvious I repulse her. She said it’s ridiculous and she is being responsible so we don’t rush and mess things up. I said I don’t think this works with the defenses up so high. I told her I’ll tell her if I’m done and won’t ever ghost her and we’d talk later if she wants. She said we could see each other first day she gets home if I want. I said okay.

 

The day came and it was the most perfect day since the breakup. She quickly hugged me and wouldn’t let me go. We went and got some guilty pleasure food and brought it home and she took our food and ice cream we got and climbed into my bed and bundled up and held me all night and we watched movies and made love together. I realize she gave it a try for once without the force field and is wanting to see how I react.