Getting tired of biting my tongue around my best friend.

[Seymore]

I've known my best friend for around 30 years. We have never once had a fight or anything. There's one topic, however, that's a sore point for him and that's his ex. I never liked her - in fact, I hate her. There are VERY few people in the world I would say that about. They were together for 9 years. I didn't like her when they dated - she was about 10 years younger, extremely immature, a heavy drinker and he'd always have to babysit her or ditch our guy's night to pick her drunk butt up from her girl's night, while he had been in AA and clean for around 15 years now. But I kept my feelings about her to myself while they dated.

 

After 9 years of dating, she was nudging him to get married. So last year, he proposed to her. Went through this big setup and everything - took her to the state they met in blah blah blah, and she said yes. He was over the moon. A week later, he found out she was and had been cheating on him for at least the past month, and had no plans on telling him. So he kicked her out. I wanted to kill her. He actually said I took the news harder than him. Well, he's my best friend and damn near a brother to me so yeah I was angry. What made me angrier was him saying it was his fault and that he wasn't very intimate with her and treated her like a roommate more than anything. I said it's nice he could own up to his part, but she could have dumped him instead of taking the ring and leading you into a marriage full of deceit. He still insists he was at fault.

 

Fast forward a year later, and he talks to her once a week. He still hangs out with her friends (all same as the ex - all party and zero maturity) - one of whom told him it was about time for him to get his own circle of friends. I tell him I agree, and he gets defensive, saying they're his friends too. I tell him no - they're HER friends and they're darn near kids compared to us. Well, that almost set off our first fight, so I told him to do whatever, he's grown, but I don't want to hear about her. Even weirder is the fact that he goes to functions with her, her new boyfriend and their friends, and she invites him. And he still tells me about it. Tonight he's at her birthday party. He told me about it last night and before he left I said "Tell (ex) to keep her head out of the toilet for one night", and of course he got defensive again.

 

I get that he and I are different. I don't get how he can date someone for 9 years, get screwed over, blame it on himself, and still hang around her and her friends and claim that they're all "just friends". I feel like he's making a fool of himself trying to hang with girls at least 10 years younger than him, and I keep telling him that one day he's going to find a decent chick and he's going to need to cut the cord with his ex. I've known him so long and I get the feeling that he's lying to himself, despite his insisting he just sees her as a friend. For crying out loud, he's still got all the pictures of her up on his FB, and she's still got all the pics of him on hers. Should I just stay out of it? Because I'm sick of hearing about her and her boyfriend and friends.

[gebaird]

I've been watching my best friend go through something similar for the past year. They've broken up and gotten back together dozens of times, and it's been pretty hard to watch. I was really frustrated with the situation one day and came very close to just laying it all out on the table, but a little voice in my head said, "He's gonna do what he's gonna do." I decided it was better for him if I stayed in his life rather than walking away because of his dysfunction. So when he talks to me about his relationship problems, I just listen supportively. I have to regularly remind myself that his business is his business, and not get too caught up in outcomes. When he asks my opinion, I give it, but only when asked. He knows I don't 100% approve of the relationship, but he also knows I support him. And if this living hell is what he wants, well okay. Lectures, interventions, and the like have their place. But so does walking with the people we care about even when they are being masochistic a-holes. In many ways it's harder for me to watch him go through it than to go through it myself, both because I really care about him and because I can't do anything about the continual string of bad decisions that are his to make.

 

You have my empathy.

[Seymore]

In many ways it's harder for me to watch him go through it than to go through it myself, both because I really care about him and because I can't do anything about the continual string of bad decisions that are his to make.

 

 

So much this. It's insane, isn't it? Can't you taste the blood from biting your tongue?

[gebaird]

So much this. It's insane, isn't it? Can't you taste the blood from biting your tongue?

 

Oh yes. I alternative between practicing my zen skills and wanting to just UNLEASH.

[ParisPaulette]

Oh man, I have been there on both sides of it. All I can tell you Seymore is that self-deception is one of humanity's greatest flaws, our greatest enemy.

 

Your friend unfortunately has a narrative in his head about this girl and it does not match reality nor does he want it to do so. In fact I'd say he's fighting very, very hard not to let reality in. At all. Not even. All you can do is try to avoid the topic, you've told him how you feel, he knows, he's an adult, sooner or later the light bulb (hopefully) will go on. And until then yeah, welcome to Self-Deceptionville.

 

I wince when I read things like this, because I was your friend with my last ex. Six years of defending him, allowing him back each time he cheated, deceiving myself that the red flags weren't "that bad." And no one was gonna tell me to give that drug up until I decided to do so on my own. Yeah, I lost a few friends and a whole lot of self-respect over that one.

 

Really all you can do is wait for the lightbulb to go on. Focus on other areas of his life that you both enjoy and let him honestly run the car off the road with her. Let him get hurt, let him learn. It's all you can do, because until that day comes that he himself learns and decides that he is going to give her up the way he gave up booze once nothing anyone says will change his mind, but him.

 

It's depressing as hell, I know. I'm sorry. Deep cleansing breath in, exhale, "I am the calm in the eye of the storm" and all that sort of thing. I wish I could offer up some easy answers, but in that arena I can't. Addictions of any sort, well they're a b*tch and you can really only kind of look at this as that's what it is.

[Seymore]

I wince when I read things like this, because I was your friend with my last ex. Six years of defending him, allowing him back each time he cheated, deceiving myself that the red flags weren't "that bad." And no one was gonna tell me to give that drug up until I decided to do so on my own. Yeah, I lost a few friends and a whole lot of self-respect over that one.

 

 

I think about that too - I know for my family I probably was just as difficult to deal with when it came to frank convos about my ex. So maybe I should be a bit more understanding. But the following really got me.

 

Addictions of any sort, well they're a b*tch and you can really only kind of look at this as that's what it is.

 

I'm glad you said that because now I wonder if that's it - if she became his "new" addiction. Granted he would hardly touch her (She'd call ME drunk saying he wouldn't have sex with her), but after 9 years perhaps she became familiar to him?

[ParisPaulette]

after 9 years perhaps she became familiar to him?

 

This is entirely possible. I know with my ex it was like an addiction, it was not a normal relationship. But I was in such a dark emotional head space at that time in my life that I would not have had an emotionally healthy relationship if it'd been right there. I openly acknowledge I would have walked right past my husband now, who I love dearly, in favor of the toxic at that point and time in my life.

 

And having been raised with a father who was an alcoholic, having gone to AA meetings, and yes had a few brushes with prescription pill addiction myself, I can say it's not unusual that when one has the capacity for one addiction that there can't be more hiding in the wings. I have to watch myself very carefully on many things, to the point I will not let the doctors give me pain pills if I can at all avoid it. It's not really a surprise to me that I became addicted to my ex and he to me. In fact, his comment to me at one point towards the end of "You're my drug of choice," was in part what woke me up. I had never thought of him as an addiction up to that point, but it changed my outlook and probably was part of what created enough rift between us for me to break free finally.

 

Anyways when it's that kind of toxicity it becomes addictive. It becomes the familiar. God forbid, it even becomes "normal" and isn't seen as abnormal too many times until one chooses to walk away from it. Your friend is addicted to her, but why or how to get free is the answer he needs to provide for himself.

 

All you can do is be his friend, be there to show him there are people in his life who do love him, who have his back, and hope that he wakes up one day.

 

You sound like an amazing friend to him. I think that's a good thing and you're a bright spot in his life, so never lose sight of that.

[gebaird]

Granted he would hardly touch her (She'd call ME drunk saying he wouldn't have sex with her)

 

It doesn't have to be physical to be an addiction. You can be addicted to someone you've never even met. It's the idea of them, the comfortable and familiar emotional pathways in the brain surrounding them. The yearning, the wanting, the unattainability, the back and forth -- it's all part of the 'how to ruin your life in a hurry' formula that fuels every toxic relationship. Your friend's in so deep he can't see straight.

[pippy longstocking]

I think everyone has delved into this already seymore , so I am just adding to say I know what this lip biting is like lol.

 

I walked away from my friend a couple of years ago , friends from 16/17 to 47/48 , I classed her as my sister and vice versa , you can imagine after all those years what we went through together .

Her addiction wasn't one man , her addiction was any man who would have her , any man she could call her boyfriend , any man she could get to move in her house , any man who wanted to get married . I suppose it was only these last years ( I have chosen to be celibate since my split 5 years ago ) that I really began to see it for what it was , how desperate she was , how sad the whole situation was . I began to realise her life was nothing unless she could say she had a boyfriend ..she went out on dates with men who she wasn't attracted to , men who used her , men whose standards in certain areas where really low . She lied to them to dump them if she realised it wasn't a fit . So why did it affect me ..... because she also lied to me , she dressed it all up ..always the same story , they all said the same thing , she had never felt like this etc etc and in the end I was on the other end of the phone rolling my eyes , almost mouthing the next line out of her mouth before she even said it , because by now it was like a script . She also dropped me like a hot potato , and that got worse ...when ones friends start seeing someone the dynamics change and you have to give people space and accept they want to spend time with their new interest . That is no problem to me at all ...but it got worse the more desperate she became , then the last two was my turning point . She is in my hometown , I am not , so we where on the phone day in and day out for hours . obviously when she was seeing someone that changed and it wasn't an issue to me at all ...but the second to last man , she literally just dropped me ...nothing ..not a word . I thought something had happened to her . Something changed in me seymore .. ( nothing to do with this , but it is taking a lifetime to write this cos my cat is nudging my hand every other word haha ) ... I just couldn't take it anymore , dragged into her drama , listening to it for hours and hours , raking over every word , every action to then find out she had dressed it up , not told me the full story and I also lost my friend ...like I say the second to last time was the worst and I almost went through a grieving process ..the silence was deafening at my end ...the hours every single night TO nothing .....then her ex found her on facebook ..oh man she hated him , she called him to hell and back , the pain he had put her through ........she married him !!! I had walked away before she married him , it was one lie to many , it was one pile of crap I spent hours listening to which was exactly that ...a pile of crap .

 

That was two years ago now and I will never go back ...but to be honest for the time she has a man she doesn't need a female friend anyway , but I lost respect , I lost empathy , I lost those feelings of closeness and friendship with her ....and I wasn't prepared to carry on .....

 

I am not suggesting you walk away seymore , I am telling you that some day you might just crack like I did , your mouth may let loose and burst with all the things that are welling up . So I would stay out of it ... friends can drag us down into the gutter , we end up thinking more about their situation then they do !!! So to maintain this relationship with him ...step away from * that* .

[ParisPaulette]

Hugs to Pippy and Seymore. Pippy, sorry you went through that. I know it's soooo frustrating.

[trickykid]

there is nothing worse than watching a friend fall into this. If i were you, I think I would say what you have to say and leave it at that, it may seem hard to just do it but he is a grown man and he is responsible for himself.

 

What popped out at me though is you said he is in AA, hasnt drank for 15 years? Hmmm something has gone wrong there, I think. This is the type of thing that AA would have been warning him against. Does he have a sponsor, he needs to get a bit tough love here, like this is the type of stuff people do in early recovery, like 1 - 2 years, I would expect someone with 15 years under their to know better. And I know this because I have been sober 17 years and if I knew someone in AA was doing this after 15 years I would be worried about them.

[IAmFCA]

I first looked at the title and thought, Oh, I bite my tongue sometimes too!

 

Facepalm

 

Language is lovely in its many facets. Lol s

[pippy longstocking]

Hugs to Pippy and Seymore. Pippy, sorry you went through that. I know it's soooo frustrating.

 

bless you PP thankyou xx

[Seymore]

there is nothing worse than watching a friend fall into this. If i were you, I think I would say what you have to say and leave it at that, it may seem hard to just do it but he is a grown man and he is responsible for himself.

 

What popped out at me though is you said he is in AA, hasnt drank for 15 years? Hmmm something has gone wrong there, I think. This is the type of thing that AA would have been warning him against. Does he have a sponsor, he needs to get a bit tough love here, like this is the type of stuff people do in early recovery, like 1 - 2 years, I would expect someone with 15 years under their to know better. And I know this because I have been sober 17 years and if I knew someone in AA was doing this after 15 years I would be worried about them.

 

No, he WAS in AA and once he got clean, he hasn't drank in 15 years.

 

What I always found strange was not only was he dating a chick who loved to drink all the time, they lived ABOVE A BAR!!! And he still does! I give him all the credit in the world for not drinking under those conditions. I think it's what he's used to. His mom has always been a huge alcoholic and he still gets called on to straighten her out when her and her boyfriend are fighting, etc. Alcohol is a part of his life, even if he's not drinking.

[Sarah83]

Yes, I would stay out of it.

 

I'm sure being good friends I would think you advised him to find someone better and that he could do better than her, am I right?

 

If so, then there isn't much more you can do unfortunately, he is going to have to wake up and learn on his own and see for himself that she is no good for him. It's sad when people are blind to other's behaviors, but it takes people a while to see it for themselves, so just let it go.

 

I would tell him (John, or whatever his name maybe) I would appreciate it if you didn't talk about your Ex with me any longer. You're like a brother to me and I care about you a lot, but talking about her upsets me a lot, and I would just like to have a fun time with you. Let's talk about other things or do something you know he would like to cheer him up and try to take his mind off of his Ex.

 

Good Luck.

[ParisPaulette]

Alcohol is a part of his life, even if he's not drinking.

 

That can actually happen. An addict can choose not to use whatever their substance of choice is, but really to stay fully clean and heal from all of the toxicity that such things bring you need to fully cut ties and redo your entire life. My dad was an alcoholic, I know he had to shed friends, his job, we even moved at one point just so he could get completely free of alcohol and all of its influences.

 

Telling us this it makes sense to me Seymore, that your friend chooses this woman and the lifestyle that goes with it. He has serious willpower to not drink, but he hasn't shed the rest of it that goes with that territory. That is what AA could help with, but if he's not attending meetings and doesn't see this as an issue then chances are good he will either maintain like this forever or until something larger comes along to shake the pieces up.

 

Again, all you can do is - and I know this sounds terrible - but find ways to detach from his bad situation. On some level it works for him or he wouldn't be doing it, even if that level is not a sound or healthy one. And I suspect from what you describe with his own mom that maybe it's another way of playing that whole dynamic out. Just take care not to let it drag you down too far or too deep as well.

 

Lord only knows I've done that and it was not fun.

[Seymore]

That can actually happen. An addict can choose not to use whatever their substance of choice is, but really to stay fully clean and heal from all of the toxicity that such things bring you need to fully cut ties and redo your entire life. My dad was an alcoholic, I know he had to shed friends, his job, we even moved at one point just so he could get completely free of alcohol and all of its influences.

 

Telling us this it makes sense to me Seymore, that your friend chooses this woman and the lifestyle that goes with it. He has serious willpower to not drink, but he hasn't shed the rest of it that goes with that territory. That is what AA could help with, but if he's not attending meetings and doesn't see this as an issue then chances are good he will either maintain like this forever or until something larger comes along to shake the pieces up.

 

Again, all you can do is - and I know this sounds terrible - but find ways to detach from his bad situation. On some level it works for him or he wouldn't be doing it, even if that level is not a sound or healthy one. And I suspect from what you describe with his own mom that maybe it's another way of playing that whole dynamic out. Just take care not to let it drag you down too far or too deep as well.

 

Lord only knows I've done that and it was not fun.

 

I get what you're saying. And he tries detaching from his mom too - the boyfriend will call him and say something like "Your mom's being a b***h, come get her or I'm calling the cops", and he'll say "Um, ok - she's an adult. Go ahead and call the cops". Then the boyfriend hits him with "You must not love your mom". So it's gotta be difficult.

 

But when I was going through my time of quitting drinking regularly (and heavily), he had some good advice, so while part of me wants to tell him to shut it - the other part knows he's listened to a lot of my crap too.

[ParisPaulette]

But when I was going through my time of quitting drinking regularly (and heavily), he had some good advice, so while part of me wants to tell him to shut it - the other part knows he's listened to a lot of my crap too.

 

Then maybe tell him, "You know, a close friend of mine once told me..." and then when you apply it to him look him in the eye and tell him, "You said that to me, and it was some damn fine advice. Listen to yourself, you know what you're talking about."

 

It's tough though when family is involved. Or one's heart at all, because yeah we're humans. And our hearts lead us down paths they shouldn't way too many times.

 

Totally crappy that your friend's mom's boyfriend (isn't that a mouthful BTW) does that. Hitting below the belt, but I have a friend whose mother and sister do that kind of stuff to him and sadly I can't hold my tongue. I finally had to tell him I knew he was a big boy and he'd have to start standing up to them, but I was out of the drama. And he was mad at me for a bit, but he's come around.

 

What works with us is sometimes when he starts in I'll just stop him and go, "Brady (not his real name) do you want advice and you just don't know what to do about this, or do you just want to vent about it? Tell me, so I know which way I can help." That has actually worked for us, and then based on which it is I'll tell him he gets to vent for half an hour and then it's my turn or some such thing. And I usually put him to work helping me muck out the barn or some such thing, because you really can't vent too terribly much when you're cleaning up messes. So a "You talk, I listen, here help me with this," might just do the trick.

 

It's worked for me with this one friend anyways.

[Seymore]

Lol Brady (sorry, such an uncommon name). You have a point though. Thanks Paris!