She called out of the blue...

[Saxbeliever]

I dated a girl for three years and we were close. Things became difficult toward the end and we broke contact in January of this year. We have had no contact whatsoever and I've done a lot of soul searching and focused on my work and my faith. It has been a season of healing and restoration for me. I learned about two weeks ago that she began seeing someone else a few weeks after we split and is now in a relationship with him. She never would commit to our relationship officially and it put strain and tension between us. I let it go and accepted her being happy with someone else yet it is difficult to move on. I have thought of her everyday since we stopped speaking and I still love her.

 

So, the day before yesterday she called me around 9 am on her way into work. I let it go to voicemail and she asked very sweetly to talk to me. I told a friend what happened and decided to give her a call. I called her and it was a pleasant conversation. She wanted to tell me what an amazing man she thinks I am and that I had been on her heart for a few days. She wants to reconcile so if we were to see one another she could greet me with open arms. I said I would like that and she said she had more she wanted to tell me but needed to go and asked if she could call me again in a few days and I said that would be nice.

 

I don't understand why she is telling me this. Why, if she is dating another man, "offically" mind you, is she breaking no contact and seeking reconciliation? Is this a game? How genuine can this be? Is it truly only as deep as she says and if it isn't anything more than that, why tell me now? She is dating another man. If I were him and we had a great relationship I don't know how I'd feel about that. I just don't get her right now. Why break contact for something so small when it could have been said long ago. Why tell me while she's dating someone else? Why seek further communication with me? Does this mean she wants to reestablish communication again? I'm not trying to play any games with her nor am I interested in being played. Please help.

[HeartGoesOn]

Are you positive she's dating another man?

[vexcision]

How old are you if you don't mind me asking?

[IAmFCA]

1. The other man is not as important as you think.

 

Or, as perhaps foreshadowed by her comment, she and the other man are committing to one another in earnest, and

 

2. She wants your blessing, of sorts. She wants to be forgiven, to know you two are no longer angry with one another, to know you are happy for her and that you are okay yourself. She wants to move on without having left any bad blood in her wake.

 

I am reminded that when my ex husband moved into his first official house after us living together - and after him pretending not to live with his gf - he asked me to come over. He wanted to show me his residence. He wanted my approval.

 

I feel it is similar here. She wants your approval.

 

In my case, I refused to come over.

[Matti Jr]

Maybe she realized she had more with you than the other person. You need more information, this sounds a little off from what you're saying.

[IAmFCA]

I suspect she is emotionally ignorant. By that I mean, unaware of the depth of your feelings, unaware how she is using you to feel good about herself, unaware of what is real and what is fantasy with respect to her current choice of mate and future path.

 

She did not commit. For three years. It would be logical for her to assume that your feelings were moderate enough to put up with that. Or she knew you loved her and didn't mind stringing you along.

 

My fellow ENA member, I fear you have put yourself in this woman's way for quite some time, in harms way. I fear she is about to deliver a blow so hard it will force to rethink everything, and to see your own role in it, and to choose being to kind to yourself as a new priority over all else. If this is true, be thankful for the gift you are about to receive. It may hurt like little else, and it may be the event that helps you become your own best advocate.

 

Be thankful for such a blow. It hurts like heck and propels you forward through rough seas at first and then, to a beautiful shore.

 

Take care of yourself first. Let others use you no more. You need not give yourself away for free in order to gain others affection. You have wants and needs and they come first. Always.

[Saxbeliever]

I am certain she is dating another man. I am 31 years old, she is 27. She has been classified a manipulator by some and unwilling to face her true self and take the necessary steps to grow. I had unknowingly enabled such behavior to some degree. I have since become aware of her attempt to control situations and influence people for her gain. I recognized it early but permitted myself to be used to an extent for the sake of showing her her true self by telling her why she was doing so when it happened. I truly do love her and want to see her flourish. That part of me wants to believe she can move forward into a trustworthy and committed relationship. I naturally want it to be with me but I want it for her more than I want her for myself.

[Saxbeliever]

Interesting thoughts. I can't rule out anything at this point. I know her quite well and still there is much I don't know. Why would she want/need my approval if she were happily in a new healthy relationship she didn't mind letting the world know about? What sort of blow are you picturing? I took a big one when she decided no contact. I didn't want to end our relationship or friendship or communication. I wanted to improve our communication and strengthen our bond. I believe she became afraid of how close and how deeply she cared for me. It made her feel vulnerable and so she seized control the only way she knew how. When she asked me to speak to her one night back in January I told her I didn't think that was going to be good for me. I said so because her behavior was increasingly erratic and unpredictable by me. She was exercising a new sense of empowerment and self control with me that she didn't display before. I allowed myself to be vulnerable then and subject myself to whatever harm she chose to inflict while maintaining my persistence to love her through action.

 

She was in a bad car accident last summer and had to be operated on. She recovered and that is when she began distancing herself from me. I was there through it all. I slept over at the hospital so she wouldn't be alone. It was no secret we were in a relationship but it wasn't official partly because of her and partly because of me. Like she was waiting for me to initiate and lead her spiritually into it. Like I wasn't going about it the right way for her. I know she loves me and cares for me. I'm not deluded in thinking so. For a large portion of time I took her for granted and was just as manipulative. I have always had pure and noble intentions for us. I want to be in a healthy relationship with her. I'm not willing anymore to be in an unhealthy one with anyone. I was for a time with her because I wasn't healthy myself and I knew it hence why I couldn't commit. I had left the marines and met her a year later knowing full well I had a lot of emotional baggage and soul searching to do. I was still searching for my identity after all I had been through. She helped with that as a friend and as time wore on I wanted more. There was some major codependency present but I maintained productivity at work and elsewhere as much as I could. It wasn't as effective as I would have liked but that was mostly because of me. I have remedied a lot of the issues with myself over time. I have been warned by nearly everyone that she isn't healthy or able to enter into healthy relationships. I knew that from the start and we all have our issues myself included. I can withstand a lot and have been through enough to know how strong I am and what I can mend from. I'm not afraid of being hurt and I won't be undone by anything she does or says. I know who I am. I just also happen to love her very deeply. I have told her and expressed it to her verbally and physically. I have yet to do so through a long term commitment. I've yet to display to her that I am capable of it.

 

I'm not off put by a new man in her life. I know what we have and the connection that is there transcends either of our choices. I'm not jealous nor threatened. I have some serious doubts as to how serious he can possibly be. It is possible she has grown, wised up, and made the necessary changes but it isn't likely and from those that know her well they haven't seen anything of the sort from her. That is coming from others who have remained in contact with her. They volunteer the info to me. I don't ask. They say this new relationship isn't healthy and appears very codependent as well. "Just odd" is the phrase that was used.

 

What is going on? What are some possibilities and what actions can I take to not allow things to resume into an unhealthy place with her. If there is a possibility of reconciling and later getting into a relationship again a lot of things need to be present for me to do so. A lot of things that she needs to work through. It will take time and I'm willing to wait.

[SherrySher]

I personally wouldn't trust it. Would you ever be able to consider that if perhaps you and her did get back together, that out of the blue one day, she could be texting another man and telling him the same things as she's telling you right now? She's not exactly being loyal to the man she is with right now as no doubt he would not be cool knowing that she is sending you these messages...and why should he be?? Just my opinion, but it sounds like a case of wanting her cake and eating it too. She can have this man in her life, but can also bait you and see if she can grab your interest as well.She could be a bit bored in her current relationships, or just wants to play around.

Would she even be serious about either of you?? Who knows....but someone who is mature and is ready for one man, would not be behaving this way or go about things like this.

She wouldn't commit to you in the first place, what makes you think she will now? And do you honestly want a woman who went from you to another man in weeks? You need to consider the fact that she is still with this man and is contacting you. Do you want someone who can possibly betray you eventually like this as well? It's entirely up to you, but I do feel that you will be in for a lot of pain eventually,, she sounds like a player.

Btw, if she had grown up and wised up...she would have ended things with him before contacting you. That's a huge red flag that you shouldn't ignore.

[musicman777]

he has been classified a manipulator by some and unwilling to face her true self and take the necessary steps to grow.

 

Why would you want to trust someone like this and go back to them? Sounds like you have done a lot of healing and growing over the past 6~ months to let this woman back into your life. My advice; close that chapter of your life and move on. I think you are only going to go through drama if you go back to her or see her. Good luck.

[dave_1966]

Why would you want to trust someone like this and go back to them? Sounds like you have done a lot of healing and growing over the past 6~ months to let this woman back into your life. My advice; close that chapter of your life and move on. I think you are only going to go through drama if you go back to her or see her. Good luck.

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Itchy]

My thoughts exactly.

 

Mine too but then some people won't learn until they are hurt.

[IAmFCA]

The blow and my speculation is that they are engaged to be married.

 

Why she wants your approval is the same reasons she is codependent and manipulative. She has a deep fear of abandonment and needs to know you're still there

 

Codependency is a bear to get past. I suggest you continue your efforts.

 

She is the equivalent of an addict and is drawing you in again just by making this phone call to yoh.

 

Yoh have nothing, nothing to gain by interacting with her. Take control and shut the door.

 

 

- from your neighborly coD recovering addict.

[Wiseman2]

The other guy dumped or is about to dump her and she wants to line up an in between guy.

She wanted to tell me what an amazing man she thinks I am and that I had been on her heart for a few days. She wants to reconcile so if we were to see one another she could greet me with open arms.

[Saxbeliever]

If she is still with someone why would need my approval? If she had a fear of abandonment wouldn't she just try to make sure he didn't leave? After 6 months what could she possibly need/want from me? Why complicate things with this new guy by contacting me at all? It can't be good for that relationship for her to try to reconcile anything with past lovers.

[East4]

If she is still with someone why would need my approval? If she had a fear of abandonment wouldn't she just try to make sure he didn't leave? After 6 months what could she possibly need/want from me? Why complicate things with this new guy by contacting me at all? It can't be good for that relationship for her to try to reconcile anything with past lovers.

 

Another, and I would say more predominant way for people with abandonment issues to make sure that there's always somebody there for them, is to maintain a network of fall back options. This tendency increases as the primary relationship deepens. I think you have been groomed for a fall back guy.

 

Secondly, manipulative people. Why are they manipulative? Manipulations is a form of covert aggression in the worst case, and in the best case is a sign of inability to ask assertively for what one wants. A normal person with healthy self esteem, if they want something from you, they would come and tell you, like "look Sax, i want to spend the evening with you and i'm asking you to decline to your friends." This is a healthy way for asking something from another and it gives the requested the freedom to say yes, or no.

 

The same scenario, but this time, the request is done by a manipulative person. The major difference is that the manipulator is afraid that you may say no to their request, so they are going to twist your arms using your soft spots in a way that you would be unable to say no. You see, the big difference, a manipulation always contains the element of control; the manipulating party wants to control your response and reaction, they want to deprive you of your choice to say no to them. Manipulation tactics include guilt trips, lies (including by omission), intimidation, sulking, pretend they were helpless without you, etc.

 

So, if you already know that your ex is manipulative and that she hasn't changed, ask yourself the question of what she wants from you, that she's afraid she can't have if she asked you directly. Think about it. Think some more. What is it? if she came up straight up to you and tell you in your face: "look im shagging this other guy, things are good, but i also need somebody else whom i have history with to also be available to me for attention, adulation and compliments; and also just in case things do not work out with my primary guy; will you please be that backburner guy? Ah, and also it makes me feel good that i still have you wrapped around my little finger and as soon as i feed you a few sweet words, you readily respond. I want you to stay stuck in your life and spend your days pinning on me, because i cannot stand not being important. I have nothing to give you, just a few crumbs here and there, but i want you to give me your all."

 

If she came up to you and were clear about her needs and wants as described above, what would you do? You would most probably send her to Alcatraz. She doesn't want to go to Alcatraz. But she wants what she wants from you. So, to convince you give her what she wants, without the possibility of you turning her down (say no), she gives the whole thing a different spin and simply conveniently forgets to mention that she is in relationship. As if the other man doesn't exist. To him she does the same thing-she pretends that YOU do not exist.

 

From a manipulator point of view her actions make a perfect sense. You are sucker for her games. Go fix yourself.

[Saxbeliever]

Wow...sounds like you're on point. I think the term hoovering is what is taking place here. She has no intention of stepping off the gas with this guy. She is just trying to cover her six like you said so she is getting everything she wants. I doubt seriously he knows about me and I doubt that she'll tell me anything about him. That would be bad for business. I think she believes she has the right to place the people in her life she wants and maintain them there however she wants them to be there. She doesn't believe there is anything wrong with her behavior. I'm not ok with this anymore. I don't want someone like that in my life. I am not a fallback guy nor will I be someone's side guy. Honestly I want to vindicate myself and crush this girls games and let it crash down around her. She isn't going to let that happen, though. There's an endless supply of people in place to clue there if she needs it. She is extremely attractive and will pull out her best tricks and charm whenever she needs to. I need to get to the place that it has no effect on me or power over me.

[East4]

OP, I would be curious to know your opinion about something that has been on my mind, every time I read a thread of an active/veteran marine or other mil branch poster. But especially marines.

I have been reading/contributing on this forum since 2011. There is this one thing that always strikes me when a read a thread of a love-troubled marine. And this is: your inability to retreat, even when retreating is a must for your well-being. I have seen a number of marines here, stuck in toxic situations with girls, where they are unable to disengage and are willing to take on huge pile of crap from these chicks, while an average man would have been long gone. From aside, it looks like you guys have been amputated from the instinct of self preservation and with some unusual stubbornness you keep marching towards heart brake and pain.

 

So, my question is why would you do that? Can't you see how you hurt yourself by choosing to stay involved? What is it that prevents you to cut off, forget and move on?

 

I came up with a theory that you guys get blinded by your own perceived strength and you fool yourself that what works in field operations would work in relationship with women. Which cannot be further away from the truth, because the tactics of women, are different to the tactics of war. Very different. I guess in war, the one who advances or at least holds position is the one who wins. In relationship is often the one who is wise to withdraw at the right moment, is the one who wins, at least in terms of sanity and dignity.

 

I have read the equivalent of what you said in your thread, many times, almost this exact wording

I can withstand a lot and have been through enough to know how strong I am and what I can mend from. I'm not afraid of being hurt and I won't be undone by anything she does or says. I know who I am.

And then you stay, take more crap and manipulation, because you think you are way too strong to step back, and before you know it you get totally emotionally annihilated, and subsequent recovery would be much more difficult, as compared to if you had disengaged before reaching your breaking point.

 

So, can you explain, please why is it that when a marine bites the bait, they seem unable to un-bite? Is my theory correct that your strength is the cause of your weakness, aka lack of self-preservation wisdom?

[Wiseman2]

That is a brilliant description of a diva for whom people are merely pawns on her chessboard.

I think she believes she has the right to place the people in her life she wants and maintain them there however she wants them to be there. She doesn't believe there is anything wrong with her behavior.

[Saxbeliever]

There is a saying among Marines; everyone except Marines have a second hand opinion of us. The Marines are without a doubt full of pride. The pride Marines have is not fueled by an inflated image of the individual self, however. The pride Marines have is in what the corps represents and stands for. We believe that no one should want to fight but someone must know how and not only how to fight but how to win battles. You're right about the kinds of battle and many Marines have problems on the home front. Our creed is simple yet clinical insanity. It fosters codependent tendencies. We don't just decide one day to adopt false views or perceptions. The depiction everyone has of Marines is the one they see from the outside looking in. The perception of the Marine is drastically different. The transformation doesn't take place in boot camp. That is just indoctrination and drilling necessary basic skills to function in the corps. The transformation happens more slowly over the course of years of being engulfed in the culture and a new way of life. It is a warrior culture where conflict is inevitable and embraced without reservation. It is reinforced in how we are mentored by the seniors what our code and ethos is. Honor, courage, and committment are the backbone of the Marine moral code. Everything else is secondary. To the outsider those words are character traits that one may possess but to a Marine it is their identity. Their pride stems from committment unto death. The Marine is willing and obedient to do whatever he/she is told to without regard for personal needs, desire, or wants. It doesn't matter how menial the task, a Marine will get it done or die en route. The Marines believe to their core that they will accomplish the job and it doesn't matter what opposition they face. If it takes the lives of one or 100 it doesn't change the fact that the mission will be acheived. This is the clinical insanity that eludes to your reference. It isn't an inflated sense of one's abilities or character that drives them. It is their committment unto death to accomplish the needs of the nation no matter how big or small. To stop the Marines from accomplishing what they set out to do is impossible because the next man up will carry that mantle to victory or the grave and advance as far as possible for the next man. It is a selfless devotion to the duty to which they are called and it is an extremely difficult lifestyle to maintain. It took me two years afterward before I felt comfortable in social settings with civilians. It took another two before I rediscovered my identity as an individual apart from the corps. The Marines are good at two things, making other Marines and winning battles.

 

Now, this is about me personally; My committment to this young lady is deeper than my committment to the corps. It is a covenant I made between myself and God. She has no impact on my committment to love her. That may mean letting her go to find her own way and pursue her own life and it may mean stepping into the gap for her to help her fight the fights she can't win on her own. I prefer to equip and help her grow and attain the skills necessary to fight her own battles because she is just as capable and it isn't my place to fight her battles for her. I would only be enabling her codependency and crippling her ability to be accountable and responsible for her own life. She is choosing the behavior she is portraying but that is not who she is. We are not defined by our behavior. Our identity comes from God and who He says we are: His. She belongs to Him the same as me. I live only to serve Him and by serving others I am giving God glory and honor and praise for who He is. I can do nothing on my own for it is only by His grace that I do anything at all. Faith is not religion. Religion is doctrine and tradition and rituals of men. Faith, hope, and love are the transcendent and wholistic eternal constants. To live without one is to not live the way we were created to function. Marines walk by faith. Some put their faith in other men (officers, peers, family, etc.) I put mine in God. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He wants to give life to us and give it abundantly. Blaming God for tragedy and death is misplacing the blame. Avoiding tribulation is to run from Him. He does not bring the tribulation; He provides the way out. Tribulation is promised in this life because we live in a fallen world. A world we have the charge of cultivating and subduing. The sin in this world causes the tribulation many of us face. Faith, hope, and love in Him will carry us through. I have a personal savior in Jesus the Son of the living God. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. There is no quit in me. There never will be. I let go of what is not mine to hold onto. She chose another man, that's her right and her choice. I chose to love her regardless. That will never change. Our relationship is in God's hands. I won't make it easy for her nor will I enable or condone her behavior when it isn't being done in good faith with hope and love. I don't know everything but I worship a God who does. Right now He tells me that I have to let go and leave the rest to Him, I've done all I can do. I wait patiently for Him with hopeful expectation that He wants to prosper me and work all things together for the good of those who love Him according to His purpose. His ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. I hope this has answered your question and given more insight into at least one marine and son of God.

[East4]

Thanks for the explanation, some fruit for thought that may cause revisiting the theory I had. I'm not sure I understood the way you meant your second paragraph, the religious mysticism is beyond me, but the first paragraph was very useful.

 

You know when people think repetitively in a certain way, the brain neurons form a solid path within the network of neurons, corresponding to this though. This explains that most of our thoughts (and based on them behaviors) are automatic and repetitive. It is like the river bed formed by the river flow.

 

I understand from what you wrote that when young guys enter the corps, it becomes necessary to shift the focus from individualism to collective thinking and from self-centeredness to self-denial. From the individual to the group interest. Suppression of the ego and identification with the group.

 

Research shows that the thoughts accompanied by strong emotional experiences (positive or negative) solidify in the memory, i.e. the formed neuron path linked to the experience becomes very stable. I guess the marine code of conduct is instilled through emotionally charged events- both positive (parades, balls, awards, etc) and also negative (pain, physical discomfort, loss of contact with family/loved ones, loss of comrades). This also explains that although in terms of duration, the experience in the marines might be relatively short, say range from 4 to15 years, compared to a whole life span of say 75 years, it marks the individual in a substantial way.

 

At some point the marine is back to civilian life for good and again a shift of orientation is needed, just that this time he’s not anymore a young resilient kid and his brain is not like the white A4 sheet of paper, from the time he entered the corps. He has a lot written on his sheet of paper and the ink used is blood. How do you undo blood ink? The point that I’m trying to make with this metaphor is that some solid neuro paths had formed and the river bed is not a shallow one, but a deep canyon.

 

One of the pitfalls is that the need for change from group oriented thinking (co-dependence?) to individualisation and selfishness typical for civilian life is not so apparent. While in the corps if one insist in keeping the civilian mentality, the DI is always there to quickly change one’s mind; in civilian life there are no DI to shout in your face and kick your butt. There are other things though not so drastic, but equally compelling to show that old ways won’t work. The requirement for change shows primarily in the realm of human relations (romantic, friendships, family, social interaction at all levels).

 

You mentioned that this chick has helped you in the beginning to re-adjust, there’s nothing more inspiring to a man than a woman he’s attracted to. So, I see she had a positive role to play in the beginning. And perhaps this is why you gave her your loyalty.

 

People (civilians at least) are neither black, nor white, they are grey. In the sense that if they once did you good, they are also equally capable to do you harm next. But I guess the marines taught you that people are either friends or enemies. In civilian life most people are frenemies. If they have some common interest and goals with you, in that time frame they are your friends/lovers. When their interests change, or they meet somebody who satisfies their interest and goal better than you, then they will leave you. The sense of loyalty is not that strong, because the selfishness is stronger. It is as simple as that. You are saying that she is not her behaviour, her identity comes from God (your words). Well, I believe people are their behaviour, at least their consistent behaviour, because it is a reflection of who they are inside. If her identity comes from God, so do yours and you have to protect it.

If someone does you harm, better take distance from that person, but not make allowances for them to keep hurting you, only because previously they helped you with something. From my perspective, you are placing your loyalty where it does not belong. The girl played a positive role in your adjustment to civilian life, that’s good, but you are not obligated anymore to be loyal to a person who is not loyal to you. You have to learn to take care of your interests and protect the heart that God has given you. Do not throw your heart to everybody with a pretty face, but dubious character, because they will play with it and toss it in the dust when they find another toy to play. Give loyalty only to those who showed they are worthy of it, by treating you consistently well.