modesty/shy guy vs. arrogant bad boy

[DropToZero]

Wow...Thanks gersanos...Now if every shy guy on this site would read this... Because...its right....he shortened 100 posts in one pretty well....stuff I and others have been tryin to get accross for a while to ...well mainly Shysoul. I'm still working on my balance...I used to be the too nice, like 70% to 80% if I could put it like that in math terms hehe.

[ShySoul]

Well I'm back. Busy week of tests and projects but hey, spring breaks coming up so I've got something to look forward to. You guys still aren't getting it though.

 

gersanos,

 

What you described as the nice guy isn't a real nice guy. A real nice guy does have that backbone and stand up for himself. That's the mistake that most people make when they refer to this whole bad boy/nice guy thing. They misinterept nice as whimpy. I was thinking of an example to demonstrate the difference. Say a girl cancels a date on short notice 3 or 4 times. Here's how the different types would react:

 

Whimp: "That's fine, whatever you want."

Jerk: "I don't have time to wait around for you. We're through." Or he would start cancelling dates himself just to get even.

Nice Guy: "Listen, I understand that things come up but I'm starting to feel like you are taking me for granted. I enjoy going out with you but I can't just sit back while you cancel every date we make. If you still want to go out, then we have to work something out."

 

While the whimp is too agreeable and the jerk is too advisarily, the nice guy is polite but firm. He states his point, is willing to work things out, but if need be will walk away instead of being walked on. Your right that the macho one gets left by the girl. And your right that the whimp will be used and left because he doesn't stand up for himself. But the nice guy isn't a whimp and is in fact what girls are looking for. Wome don't go back and forth. They may go through a phase where the bad boy seems exciting, but deep down they always want the good guy who will treat them with respect. The nice guy does this.

 

The guy isn't the prize. The woman isn't the prize. Love is the prize. It's not about control or power, it is about love and understanding. This isn't about weeding out or making somebody pass a test. That's turning dating, relationships, and love into a chore, a job. It's twisting it around into something it is not meant to be. It should be about enjoying yourself, having fun, and hopefully finding that special someone when the time is right.

 

I'm confused. You talk about the guy being the one to evaluate the girl and looking at himself as the prize. Then you say the girl is testing the guy and being the one who chooses him. So who holds the power here? Or is it that both are testing the other? If that's the case then its no wonder that so many people have relationship problems. People are so stuck on judging the other person and playing mindgames that they cause there own problems. People need to stop looking at this as about power and games, and open themself up to love's embrace.

 

Okay, I agree with the confidence part. If anything I would boost up that percentage since it is so important. I'm also fine with the control part, although I'd make a slight change in the name to self control to avoid any misintrepretations of trying to control someone else. You don't want to rush into things and give your heart when there's nothing really there. You don't want to get too frustrated when things don't go your way. And you aren't controlling. The nice guy that I have been referring to has both of these aspects.

 

The part where I completely disagree is with the challenging part. If you take one step forward and two steps back, then your just going to get further from your goal, not closer. What's going to happen is that she she'll lose interest when your not there for her. She calls you and your not there. If that happens enough then she'll wonder if you really want to talk to her. She'll think your so busy that you don't have time with her. Now, thats not saying that you should be at her beck and call. Live your life and do what you have to do. But don't intentionally try to be mysterious. Girls are smarter than that. The know the strategy and won't fall for it, or if they do it won't take them long to smarten up. Plus, the more you talk and more you get to know each other, the more that passion will grow. The excitement will still be there, it will be in the simply talking to someone who you really connect with. It will be in taking things to that next level, each date will be a fun new experience. If there is a connection, that excitement will continue, not fade away.

 

Ok, if she is calling me and always whats to spend time with me, then I'm going to ruin it by spending time with her? If we both like each other and want to be around each other, why shouldn't I spend time with her? You say actions speak louder than words. True. But what does not answering the phone or not agreeing to meet up say? It says, I'm too busy to make time for you. If you legitamently have other plans then fine, work out another time to meet but don't back out because you want to be mysterious.

[ShySoul]

LtAwesome,

 

You asked about the girl I've been talking to online. Your right in that we don't get to see each other everyday. She lives too far away and are schedules don't match up enough to see each other like that. But we do talk everynight online, occasionaly on the phone. The reason I can say with such confidence that my way works is because its working right now with her. I'm not going to say we are dating, just two friends who enjoy each others company. But its still working out well. I have been nothing but a nice guy. I have been available if she wants to chat or meet up. I've been talking to her online each night, not because I'm becoming dependent on her, but because I'm usually online anyways and if we are both online, why not talk to each other. We both enjoy it immensely and have fun. So why deprive ourselves of that fun? I'm not being a challenge, I'm not being mysterious. I'm being me. I've been open and available. I've been completely honest and truthful. And there seems to be something there. Far from becoming bored with me and wanting mystery, she is responding more. We both admit that we miss our chats if we can't make it for a night. She has literally said that she was thinking about me and missing me. She told me she was glad I was a nice, mellow guy as she put it, not someone who plays games. We are making more plans to hang out together. She even wants to spend the day with me in a couple of weeks and go somewhere for the day, when we are both free. Honestly, I think that something is there but we are just shy and nervous about going that extra step. But if anything does happen, it will have been simply because we have stuff in common, get along, and like each other. Me being a nice guy is impressing her and has made her feel comfortable with me. If I played those kinds of games then I wouldn't have gotten this far. She would have chalked me up as just another guy. But I'm on the verge of something and I got here by being nice, not by being a challenge.

[gersanos]

Say a girl cancels a date on short notice 3 or 4 times. Here's how the different types would react:

Nice Guy: but I'm starting to feel like you are taking me for granted

 

The nice guy in this situation is no different than the whimp. I'm starting to feel like you are taking me for granted? Pal, the message was loud and clear after she blew you off the second time. But the 3rd or 4th time and now you are starting to feel like you're being taken for granted? Then you give her the benefit of the doubt, and try to work things out or negotiate? Please, it's obvious that you are wasting your time here. The "jerk" here, by acknowledging what is happening, and making it known that he does not have the time to wait around, is the only one of the 3 types that has a backbone. He is making it known that this is unacceptable. He has self-respect. Forget her completely. Find someone that doesn't cancel dates with you.

 

This isn't about weeding out or making somebody pass a test.

 

This is the whole point of dating. Yes, it's meant to be fun, but at the same time, it's about finding someone that you truly are compatible with, that is, if you are looking for some sort of real relationship.

 

 

slight change in the name to self control to avoid any misintrepretations of trying to control someone els

 

Thanks for pointing that out. It is not about being controlling. It is about having self-control. That should be re-worded, sorry for any miscommunication.

 

Ok, if she is calling me and always whats to spend time with me, then I'm going to ruin it by spending time with her? If we both like each other and want to be around each other, why shouldn't I spend time with her?

 

If she is calling constantly, yes. Sure, it's a new interest. You want to talk with her. She wants to talk with you. It is "mutual." But also, remember, by doing this, you are still giving her everything she wants, but it's justified because the feelings are mutual. How often do you talk with her and spend time with her? Everyday? Few times on the phone each day? Every night? Those are some big red-flags to me, and usually, it's more lust than anything else. Nothing wrong with that though, unless you start to fall for her, and that's not exactly what's going on with her, or it very well maybe, but it takes some time to fall in love with someone. Anything in the early getting to know stages is an infatuation, not love.

 

Challenge is about not being too available to her. Most guys get a number and call right away, and call a lot, and can't wait to see her, etc. Connection? Maybe to some extent. I smell desperation more than anything, or an infatuation, or both. What connection, you just met her and are getting to know her.

 

The point of all of this is to look at terms objectively. Not subjectively, or whatever it is that you may think or feel. It's taking a realistic look at what is going on. That is the evaluation process. Many of times it's subjective because you project certain thoughts and feelings on the situation, and then justify a connection. Take it slow, take it easy. You don't know this person at all. Respect them, respect yourself. Remember, everybody is nice in the beginning stages. This is about protecting yourself. Get to know her. Evaluate her. 99% of women out there are not right for you. Yes, take risks, but don't just dive in. Look for positive traits and qualities. Do not overlook the obvious negative ones. Many of times we are blind to them because we analyze subjectively. It is very much about having fun, but do not overlook any signs that spell disaster down the road. And you wonder why after a break-up friends and/or family knew all along it wouldn't work out? Aahhh, the objective observers. They can point out exactly what went wrong, and at times, may hint at it along the way, but not say anything because (1) they want you to learn from the experience and (2) they feel as if they don't want to come between you.

[ShySoul]

There is the possibility that she has a valid excuse. Say her grandmother is in town out of the blue and her parents are making her go to dinner as a family obligation type of thing, or that she feels like she should go herself since the grandmother is getting up there and they usually don't see each other. Or say somebody couldn't make there shift at work and she's stuck doing overtime. The nice guy understands that things can happen and doesn't hold it against her. It would be different if she was doing it with no explanation or remorse. But if she does, give her the benefit of the doubt. Saying "taken for granted" is being polite and staying calm. If you start to get angry and take a hostile tone, she'll just respond by getting angry at you and then there is no chance of working things out. The nice guy recognizes what is going on, makes it known, but is willing to give the benefit of the doubt and let her know she has one last chance. If she doesn't take it, then walk away knowing you tried.

 

I'll even use the girl I've mentioned as an example. When we were planning to meet in person for the first time we originally had said saturday. She realized that she had a lot of other stuff for that day and asked if we could move it to Sunday. Sunday came and at the last minute something came up and she had to cancel, calling about an hour before we were suppose to meet. By your logic, I should have given up on her because she backed out twice, backed out of our first face to face meeting. But later that afternoon she called again to apoligize and ask if I still wanted to get together that night. Had I told her see ya, I would have missed out on everything we've shared in the last month and never gotten this close to her.

 

It isn't about ACTIVELY weeding people out. Just focus on having a good time and enjoying each others company and you will naturally know if the person is the one for you. You don't have to be actively thinking about it, or making them go through tests to know if they are right. If it's right or not, you will simply know.

 

Did you read my other post about how close I am to actually having something? And I got there by being available, being nice with no games, and talking to her alot. I know not to rush into things to fast. Every girl I've ever been attracted to has been after knowing her and being her friend for awhile. It's been two months and we've been talking on average two hours a night. We have taken the time to get to know each other. It wasn't until very recently, as in last week, that I really started to think about her like this. I have taken the time to get to know her. I've asked myself the same questions, is it just infatuation or desperation? I've purposely held back my feelings to make sure it wasn't just a passing fancy or that I was getting to excited over the prospect of someone taking an interest in me. It may not be love, and I've never claimed it was. Love does take time. But how can you know if you really like someone, or if you love them, unless you are spending time with that person. The more time you spend together, the better you are able to judge your feelings.

 

You say its about protecting yourself. Well I've been in the position where I held back to protect myself, and it only got me hurt. At some point you have to stop protecting yourself and go all in. Those negative things may be good to watch out for sometimes its better to risk the pain from those things than to endure the pain of missing out. I, and the nice guys, are careful. Hence the reason we start off as friends. Hence the reason we take things slow. But taking it slow doesn't involve being mysterious or playing games. It involves talking to the person and getting to know her as much as possible before making a decision on whether this is what you want to pursue.

[MetalJoe]

The pulling away from a kiss is something FUN to do...you don't always have to pull away from it for a long time...its just like with-holding it for a few seconds...LIke she goes into kiss you, and you pull away slightly just to tease her. PUt it this way, you always want more what you can't have. I'm not saying refuse to kiss her completely, i'm saying just pull back a bit to tease her. Its like in a film i saw last night - if you are going in for a first kiss, then go in 90% of the way, and let her come the remaining 10% of the way...you go in far enough that everyone is clear what is wanted, but you linger long enough for the sense of anticipation to build up.

 

Maybe I've done it wrong in the past, misjudged the timing or been with the wrong girls, but from experience I can guarantee that'll kill off any chance I have of getting that kiss. Hesitate or try and build that "sense of anticipation" and she'll be off.

[spatzcolumbo]

Shysoul,

 

With this girl who you are chatting to online...You say that at the moment you have not met up, and you just have a great time chatting online, etc. You say that it is just friends at the moment, but is really enjoyable, and this has all happened with you being the 100% nice guy. This is EXACTLY what many people here are talking about - the friends trap...so many people end up falling into the 'friends' trap. I'm not saying you will fall into the friends trap, but would like to play devils advocate again...what happens if you meet up and she just sees it as friends? You clearly like this girl, or what you know about her. The way you talk suggests to me that you would not be totally against the idea of dating her. So what do you do if you find yourself falling into her 'friend' trap?

 

What if you meet up and you really want her, but she says all she wants is friends? Do you then at least start to consider some of the things that we have been discussing? Or do you just sit back and see another one drift by?

 

It is not wrong to see something you want and go out and try to get it.

 

Another thing that everyone seems to talk about is this idea of a scale ranging from 'Nice guy' to 'Jerk'. Shysoul, you place yourself at somewhere in the middle of these 2 extremes. I would suggest to you that you are possibly closer to the 'Nice guy' end of things, rather than the middle. I perceive myself to be in the middle. The 'middle' suggests having a relatively equal measure of the 2 extremes - if you like, the best of both ends of the scale. You may not think that there are any character traits of a 'jerk' that are desireable, but i would suggest that you are wrong.

 

If someone stood me up on 3-4 separate occasions, i would like to think that i would:

 

a) be able to make a fairly accurate guess as to whether or not i was being given the brush off

b) have the self respect to not be in the position to be stood up for the 3rd time.

 

If you are being stood up for the 3rd or 4th time, then she should already have given you a damn good explanation. If she hasn't, then you're being played BIG time.

 

The reason I can say with such confidence that my way works is because its working right now with her.

 

Again back to the girl online. You are quoted above as saying you are so confident that your way works. Question - which forum are we posting in? Dating. Have your methods resulted in the 2 of you dating? No. You can not say it is working with her because you do not know that. She may see this as just friends. 'Just friends' is not what this discussion is about.

[gersanos]

It isn't about ACTIVELY weeding people out.

 

It's not active. You are correct. It should be natural. But you're constantly going through it. All girls do this, the point is many men don't. They see a girl, are attracted to her, and think that she might be the "one" or whatever, but they are doing nothing but projecting his thoughts and feelings on the matter. The more you talk/spend time with her, the more you realize: (1) this may be something good here or (2) this isn't going so hot/what I want.

 

Had I told her see ya, I would have missed out on everything we've shared in the last month and never gotten this close to her.

 

2 months of talking online is what you would have missed out on?

 

 

It's been two months and we've been talking on average two hours a night

 

Ok, it's way past time to meet her. Taking it slow is good, but, if there were romantic possibilities, they should have started a while ago, meaning seeing her in person, etc.

 

At some point you have to stop protecting yourself and go all in

 

Look at it objectively first. Don't just say screw it, and dive in. That mentality is brooding with disaster. Take risks. I agree. Don't just dive in head first.

[DropToZero]

These other two guys seem to keep answering your questions pretty well w/o my help, but I'll say something about the others.

 

Maybe I've done it wrong in the past, misjudged the timing or been with the wrong girls, but from experience I can guarantee that'll kill off any chance I have of getting that kiss. Hesitate or try and build that "sense of anticipation" and she'll be off.

-MetalJoe

 

Actually....it won't kill anything if you know what you're doing. As much as people hate to admit it...especially guys, most girls seem to know just a tad more about dating and relationships than guys. They think differently in a way we'll never understand, and they are usually more in touch with feelings and emotions. Anyways..to get back to the pulling back from a kiss. Most 'nice guys' that say they are in control, wont know who is really in control until they are put to the test with a girl at hand. Again...actions will speak louder than words. Most girls that have dated previously have experience and a way of weeding out certain guys from the moment they meet. Girls like to be in control...or at least they try to. That I can't explain, but when..and only when the GUY starts to take control of the date, or of anything...will she begin to understand....hey...he's different from the others. He won't buy me what I want, or take me to my fav. restaurant every time, or won't kiss me when I want to kiss him....THAT is CHALLENGE. This is where Shy's inexperience comes in thinking that challenges are a bad thing.....you have to be a challenge....you will lose her interest somewhere down the line....and I'd guarantee it. Pulling back from a kiss states that you're in control...that you do what you want, and if anything, if she really really wants to kiss you....you are in control. Instead of the guy being the one not knowing what's goin on...she'll be the one. Honestly...I'll never understand it....but it works....its attraction.

[ShySoul]

I hate my computer. I try to respond and the darn thing freezes on me.

 

Oy with the poodles already. Guys, guys, guys, do you actually pay attention to what I write? The last few posts seem to be based off the idea that I haven't met this girl yet. But if you pay attention to what I've written you'll see that's not the case.

 

But later that afternoon she called again to apoligize and ask if I still wanted to get together that night.

 

Maybe I should have added that I said yes and that we spent a couple hours together that night. Or that we spent the evening together last Saturday. Or that we have plans to spend the day together on the 25th. Or that we have talked on the phone several times. Or that we have tickets to go to a concert together in June. Or that there has been a good deal of flirting going on during our online chats, flirting that has nothing to do with making fun of the other. I know I've mentioned most of these things before and you can go back through past posts to prove it. Now, admitedly I'm new to this situation. But even Ray Charles could have seen the signs right in front of me. How am I falling into the dreaded "friends trap" (insert dramatic music)? It seems pretty clear that she likes me.

 

This is how I now what I am doing is working. Because she has told me! I mentioned a couple nights ago that I was wondering what the past couple of months would have been like if we hadn't met. She responded by saying that her life would have been a whole lot emptier. Bingo! We have a winner. Then we get to Saturday night where we both literally told each other we like each other. No beating around the bush, no playing games, we sucked up our pride and said it. Now, nothing is official yet. We're in that awkward stage of wanting it but being shy and unsure of ourselves. I'll keep you posted on what happens.

 

But the point of all of this is that everything I have said is working. Being 100% nice, not playing games, being open and available, not caring about control, etc. I know enough about this girl to know that if I had tried any of your methods then I wouldn't be anywhere close to where I am right now. Maybe it's you guys that need to start considering what I'm saying.

 

It is not wrong to see something you want and go out and try to get it.

 

spatzcolumbo, I would say that this is exactly what I am doing and what you are failing to do in some regards. You talk about not being available as a way of gaining control in the relationship. That's not pursuing something you want, thats pulling back and giving her an opportunity to get away. Meanwhile, I am there with her, getting to know her and seeing just where the relationship is going. If you want to pursue something, you have to be there spending time with her, not holding back as part of some mindgame.

 

Another thing that everyone seems to talk about is this idea of a scale ranging from 'Nice guy' to 'Jerk'. Shysoul, you place yourself at somewhere in the middle of these 2 extremes. I would suggest to you that you are possibly closer to the 'Nice guy' end of things, rather than the middle.

 

No, I have always claimed to be the "Nice guy," not in the middle. What I have been saying is that everyone's definition of "nice guy" and "jerk" needs to be redone. Everyone is equating nice guy with a whimp who can't stand up for himself. Meanwhile the jerk is viewed as the guy with confidence. However, that should probably be reversed. A real nice guy has alot of confidence in himself and will stand up for himself. Just look at the way they stand up for there belief in being a gentleman and not teasing a lady. If I can use myself as an example, I have had to stand up for myself in more ways then I can count, not just in matters of relationships but with life in general. Meanwhile, the jerks are the ones who really have no confidence and low self-esteem. They have to resort to bullying others and being mean to make themselves feel better. When you look at it like that, who would want to be associated with the jerks?

 

If you are being stood up for the 3rd or 4th time, then she should already have given you a damn good explanation. If she hasn't, then you're being played BIG time.

 

Well, that's what I said. Provided that there is a valid reason, she shouldn't be punished for events that we're out of her control. But I'd like to make another point. Notice how if she cancels then you guy's don't like it and are quick to "throw her to the curb" if you will. You want her to be on time and available. Yet, its ok for you guys to purposely hold back and not be there to go out with her, even though you want to. That's being hypocritcal. You don't like the idea that she wouldn't be there for you, possibly even playing the same game you are, but you are ok with not being there for her and playing games with her. If you get upset with her, don't you think she would be getting upset with you?

[ShySoul]

gersanos,

 

Girls rush into things and project there thoughts and feelings onto guys as well. You can't just generalize based on gender. Yes, take the time to really get to know the person and see if there is something real there. Which is why my thought has always been to just forget about relationships at all. Focus on being someones friend and getting to know the person. If something is there, the feelings will come naturally without any thought by you. Don't dive in, don't look at it objectively. Don't think about it at all. If there isn't a future, the thoughts won't develop. But if there is a chance at something, the feelings will develop at which point you need to act upon them. That's not saying it will necessarily work out, but there is a better chance if the relationship came from a friendship with neither person expecting anything to happen. That way, when it does they will already have the foundation of friendship to make things work.

 

And as I mentioned, I have seen this girl several times and the possibility of romance has been there for awhile. I did everything right here. I focused purely on being her friend. We talked online for a couple of weeks getting to know each other before trying a phone call. A couple of weeks later and a few phone calls later, we were comfortable enough to meet up in person. Even when my best friend was joking about us "dating" and when I started to get the feeling that there was something there, I didn't quite believe it. It wasn't until this past week that I've finally relented and admitted how I feel about her. And clearly the feelings are mutual. I've taken my time before jumping in but now I see that I have nothing to lose and I'm diving in.

[ShySoul]

LtAwesome,

 

Actually, guys and girls do not think as differently as people make it out to be. Everyone has the same basic wants and desires. Ask anyone, male or female, what they want out of a long term relationship and you'll get essentially the same answer. Things like: honesty, sincerity, compassion, love, understanding, security, faithfulness, friendship. Those are basic needs for men or women. The differences comes from stereotypes. But women could be out for sex just as much as men, and men could be just as in touch with their feelings as women. In the end, everyone has the same feelings and emotions, the differences aren't nearly as big as people make them out to be.

 

Again, the guy isn't in control and neither is the girl. Someone said pages back that it was 50/50. Relationships are built upon compromise, not power. Pulling away from a kiss just says, if you want me I'm going to make you work for it. And eventually the girl will make up and say its not worth the work. Why should she have to do all the work for something they both want? It's not my inexperience speaking here, its common sense. I say, if you want to kiss, just kiss. No use playing those games when you could be playing a much funner game called,"kiss like crazy cause you've found somebody to love." And may I say, if I have to be a challenge, then how come this girl is so interested in me when I've been pretty much agreeable? How come she says we are "in it for the long run?"

[spatzcolumbo]

Shysoul,

 

First of all:

 

spatzcolumbo, I would say that this is exactly what I am doing and what you are failing to do in some regards. You talk about not being available as a way of gaining control in the relationship. That's not pursuing something you want, thats pulling back and giving her an opportunity to get away. Meanwhile, I am there with her, getting to know her and seeing just where the relationship is going. If you want to pursue something, you have to be there spending time with her, not holding back as part of some mindgame.

 

I do pursue what i want - i pursue it actively, but just in a different way to you. When i talk about not being available, i mean that if i already have plans, no matter how minor, i will stick to those plans. I also mean that if i am talking to someone, i am quite happy to keep things to myself in a way that makes them want to find it out more. I'm not with-holding things for any underhand reason.

 

No, I have always claimed to be the "Nice guy," not in the middle. What I have been saying is that everyone's definition of "nice guy" and "jerk" needs to be redone. Everyone is equating nice guy with a whimp who can't stand up for himself. Meanwhile the jerk is viewed as the guy with confidence.

 

I agree with you - people DO need to re-assess how they define nice guy and jerk. YOU need to as well!! I have never equated a nice guy as being a wimp. Why? Because i am a nice guy. I really am. Buy you are suggesting that i can't be a ncie guy because i tease women, and i do things differently to you.

 

You want her to be on time and available. Yet, its ok for you guys to purposely hold back and not be there to go out with her, even though you want to.

 

Yes i would like her to be on time and available, but i'm not gonna blow my top if she has already planned something. Its when she hasn't planned anything and cancels without good reason that it gets suspicious. I am talking about when i already have plans. If i have already planned to go for a drink with my mates, then i will still do it. I won't cancel on my mates because this girl wants to go for a drink. You think that i mean i will tell the girl that i am not available jsut to make her more interested...this is a CRAZY idea and i'm not sure why you think it!

 

A couple of other points....

 

You said to gersanos:

 

Girls rush into things and project there thoughts and feelings onto guys as well. You can't just generalize based on gender.

 

You need to also be careful not to generalize about the nice guy / jerk thing. You are making a generalisation that ANYONE who does something differently to you simply CAN NOT be a nice guy. You have suggested to me that i can't be a nice guy because i tease women and flirt with women in a teasing way. I am merely trying to point out to you that it is possible to have all sorts of character traits, and these can not be pigeon-holed into 'Nice guy' or 'Jerk'.

 

As for the pulling back from a kiss thing, i REALLY wish i could make you see what i mean. If you knew what i mean, you just would not argue against it.

 

I am not talking about a first kiss, or about walking away completely.

 

I am talking about when you are dating someone. I am talking about going in for a kiss, then pulling your head back a few inches at the very last minute. Not every time. Be spontaneous. Its about pulling your head back by a few inches, and making her move in more. Its not about being a 'jerk' and walking off!!

 

It is not about walking away - do this and she will be very freaked out. Its about building up the moment a little bit more. It is fun, it is easy, and it makes the kiss so much better when it happens a few seconds later. In this situation, Good things really do come to those who wait.

 

At least try it. This is what frustrates me with you. Most of the other people who are posting claim to have been in your situation (the 'Nice guy' situation). For whatever reason, it has not worked out for them, so they have adapted, or tried other things. I'm not suggesting you drop what you are doing (because you claim it is working for you), but i don't see the harm in you thinking about these things, and maybe trying little things like the kiss thing. Not to mention the teasing, which i am pretty much certain you do anyway - you just don't realise it.

[ShySoul]

spatz,

 

I've said it before, I don't think that we are as far apart on these things as it seems. There are a few differences in opinion, but most of them aren't that major. I think that because this is being written some things are being lost in translation. You seem like the most intelligent and nice guy I've been debating this with, you've actually challenged me to defend what I'm saying. I'm sure you are a nice guy, we just have different views on these things. And when I say you, I'm referring to all the guys who are debating this with me, not just you specifically. So I hope nobody takes anything I saw personally.

 

If you already have plans then you shouldn't need to cancel. The way it is coming out from other posts, not necessarily yours, is that you should intentionally not be available. That's wrong and I think you would agree. I also wonder when you say no matter how minor, because I'm sure that I could come up with circumstances in which you would change your plans, if what you were doing was really unimportant and she needed your help with something that was important. Where we differ is in keeping things to yourself in a way that makes her want to find out more. I'm saying that from her perspective it could certainly look like you are doing something underhanded. Girls appreciate honesty, and a lie of omission is still a lie. If the topic doesn't come up, then there's no point in saying some things. But if it does come up, just tell the truth, the whole truth. She'll appreciate you more for it.

 

Again, I've never said that you directly equate nice guys as whimps. You do seem like a nice guy in general. I don't know you personally so I'm withholding any absolute judgement. I have a clear idea of what a nice guy is and what a jerk is. But I've never claimed that people are perfect. The nice guys can act like jerks at time and display jerk like qualities. The jerks can even seem like nice guys. In my estimation teasing women is leaning to the jerk side and isn't something that I nice guy should do. But that doesn't mean that the person isn't a nice guy or is in some way bad. It simply means that they are displaying a jerk like characteristic which is something that everone has done at some point.

 

We also agree that she shouldn't be cancelling without good reason, and neither should the guy. I just get the feeling that this is what the other guys are saying, that you should hold back and say you are not available to make her more interested. It is crazy, which is why I've been arguing against it so much. Maybe its a miscommunication, that we haven't been clear enough in our words. But if it isn't then I seriously question what is going on in some people's minds.

 

About the kiss, I know what you mean but I'm still going to argue anyway. I get that it is not the first kiss or walking away completely. Pulling your head back to make her move in more is pointless. Your going to kiss, so kiss. You want buildup, try wanting through the date and feeling that love and desire to kiss her build up through the night. Then, when the moment is right, kiss her. The extra couple of seconds isn't going to make the kiss better, its the love that you share that makes the kiss worth anything at all. When two people who care about each other kiss, its going to be great no matter what. So I say, no games, no hesitation, just the kiss. Don't think about pulling back and drawing out the moment. Lose yourself in the passionate kisses.

 

I'm trying to come up with some way that pausing can be good. I've got a possible explanation, but it doesn't involve the idea of pulling back and making her come closer. It is when you stop to look into her eyes, maybe brush her hair back and focus on her eyes, letting time stand still and sensing the love between the two of you. It is romantic and sweet, but it in no way entails pulling back. Go part way, gaze in her eyes, and complete the trip to her lips. Maybe it has to do with my situation. Maybe you have kissed so much that you need to find a way to heighten the excitement. Or maybe the girls you are kissing there isn't enough there to allow the kiss to stand on its own without the need to create excitement. On my side, I've got over 22 years of waiting. That's plenty of buildup. When the time comes, there is no need for more buildup. Knowing that I've finally found someone and that we share the connection I've always longed for will be more than enought to make the first kiss, and any subsequent ones, as heavenly as possible.

 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. As I'll say in another post, not only has the nice guy thing worked for me, its brought me on the verge of everything I've been waiting for. I have thought of these things and I always come to the same conclusions: they are not me, they don't make sense, and if I tried then I would just end up feeling bad about myself. Being nice works, anyone who says it doesn't gave up to soon. Sure, it may seem harder because so few people hold the views that I do. But that's what makes it better when they find each other. Any of you guys who said you were nice but it didn't work for you, instead of giving up and incorporating these games and/or jerk like characteristics you should have held to your ideals and when you did find someone you could have said that you never resorted to those tactics and still ended up with the love you wanted. I'm going to be able to do that, which is something that very few people can say. I'm proud of it and the lucky girl is going to appreciate it.

[ShySoul]

Update on me and the girl. We've admitted that we like each other. We're not dating as of yet because she isn't sure what to do. A guy that she used to go out with is still interested in her and they never got completely over each other. But she does like me too. So we are in a sort of weird place with her not knowing what her heart says to do. In this situation the thing to do is be supportive while still showing that I'm interested. If I started to play any kind of games then she would get annoyed with me and it would ruin any chance I have. I'm not going to be a whimp, I'm telling her exactly how I feel. If I don't then I'll lose without a fight. But I can't do anything jerk like or she'll take it the wrong way and I'll still lose my chance. I'm being supportive of whatever choice she makes and she appreciates me for it.

 

I don't know any better may to show everyone that being nice does work than to give you the exact words she told me:

 

"but i must tell, i do like your person. your innocence is great, i feel that when you say something its for real and your not trying to get anything out of it"

 

That innocence is the not playing games, not teasing, being available, etc. I speak straight from the heart, always honest, never giving a thought to whose in control. She has responded to that. It's gotten me to the edge of something special. And even if things don't work out relationship wise, though I hope they do, we've also agreed that we'll be friends for life. So to anyone who doubts the philosophy of 100% nice, no games included, rethink your strategy. It does work, it just takes time. But when it happens, the time will have been worth it.

[MetallicAguy]

Ok, shysoul, basically Spatz is explaining what I've helped people in the past with to get women. You see, when you pull away from the kiss obviously it builds up the moment aka creates tension. This is the good tension that nice guys let go and then they lose it all with her. They can let it go by automatically going out real fast then in for the kiss, or they can say like "Just kidding" and get really nervous. Why does this matter? Because it makes the girl want to kiss you more. It creates a special emotion in the woman's mind that is the trigger of attraction within her. And it's the easiest, fastest way to build up attraction without being a nice guy and waiting like 2 years for her to finally build up an ounce of attraction for you. And Shysoul do you just go for these smart women, that are really into school? That is probably why it works for you to be nice!, that's all those chicks (not saying all but most I've been around like nice guys that don't tease or anything) like and can handle. Is a nice guy who won't play with her emotions playfully. The worst that can happen is that she gets insulted. But that's the thing I think you think it's mean to tease her...but it..isn't, this is a really hard topic to explain. lol. It's not teasing like "Yeah, well get out of my apartment, I don't want you or your fat *** pants" lol that's mean and that is not the right example of it. Teasing would be like if she has a huge purse, you ask her if she carries her dog in there like Paris Hilton. That is the difference. (Not really the best example but it's good enough for you to understand it). You know she gets it as a tease (playfully of course) if she has that

"Oh my god you didn't just say that!" look or if she hit's you in the arm. lol. And it's fun while your at it too.

[spatzcolumbo]

Shysoul,

 

I think you are probably right - i think we probably are closer than we think in terms of the kind of people we are. Thats a good thing, because i think we both know what works for us, and we are happy not to be the kind of people who just go out for one night stands and the fleeting excitement that those types of encounters offer.

 

I also think you are 100% correct in saying that with a certain amount of our discussions on this board, context is lost in translation, and thus much of what we say is misunderstood.

 

I don't take any of it personally, but it drives me mad that i can not make myself clearer in what i want to say!!

 

Now some thoughts on what you posted:

 

 

Girls appreciate honesty

 

I agree with you here, they DO appreciate honesty. But i also feel that they appreciate fun. They appreciate someone who can make them laugh, and the light hearted teasing that i enjoy is about making them laugh. It is in NO way offensive. It is done in a manner which i KNOW they like (i make sure that i test the waters first - its not like i dive in straight away with teasing!). For instance...a few months ago i bumped into a girl i was interested in at a comedy gig...we were going in, and i noticed on her ticket that she had a 'teen' ticket, rather than an 'adult' ticket. She had taken the place of a friends little sister, and was using her ticket. I teased her about it straight away - "oh come on, i know you've got your youthful good looks, but there is no way you can pass for a teenager anymore!!"

 

All said in a joking way - in one little comment, you get a compliment (youthful good looks), a little bit of teasing (you can't pass for a teen any more!), a laugh (she laughed) and a reply (she hit me playfully and told me to be quiet). This exchange is a great example of people flirting!

 

Where we differ is in keeping things to yourself in a way that makes her want to find out more.

 

I think i see partly where the problem comes from here in terms of how we are getting a misunderstanding. When i talk about keeping things back from women in order that they want to come back for more, i am talking about those first few meetings. Often, these meetings can happen at a club / bar / pub, maybe with other people around. These are not situations where you are going to get into a deep conversation. So for example she might ask you a question, to which you can playfully reply something along the lines of "well thats for me to know and you to find out...maybe when there aren't so many people around". It is not an underhand way of dealing with someone, but more a way of suggesting that you are really willing to answer the question, but would rather do it when you can spend more quality 1-on-1 time with the person. It makes them realise that you are interested, makes them want to come back for more, and also subtly asks the question "do you wanna go out sometime?".

 

that you should hold back and say you are not available to make her more interested. It is crazy

 

I agree, something like that IS crazy - if i have nothing else to do, then i would obviously go out with her. The key here is to make sure that you don't srop everything as soon as she calls. (Not saying that this is what you do, but talking generally). It is vitally important to demonstrate that you have a life outside of your relationship with her. Show her that you have other things to fall back on, and that you are not going to crowd her at all. This is the kind of thing i am talking about when i mention holding back in terms of seeing her. Having said that, i don't take my own advice when i am really into someone, as i want to see them ALL the time - its just something i am trying to slowly get used to!!

 

The extra couple of seconds isn't going to make the kiss better, its the love that you share that makes the kiss worth anything at all.

 

You can do the hesitation thing in a kiss and still be madly in love with that person. Me and my ex were madly in love for 18 months, and every now and then i would do the hesitation thing, and she LOVED it. There was still everything else in there too, but the hesitation just gave it that little bit of something extra. Let's use a really stupid example - when you go to Walmart to do some shopping, you buy the essentials. But then maybe one day you want a bit of chocolate cake too. You don't NEED the chocolate cake in order to satisfy your need for hunger, but it makes it a lot more enjoyable!! Same goes with the hesitation in a kiss - you don't NEED it as part of the kiss, but if you do it every now and then, it can add a little something that makes it an even more enjoyable experience.

 

Any of you guys who said you were nice but it didn't work for you, instead of giving up and incorporating these games and/or jerk like characteristics you should have held to your ideals and when you did find someone you could have said that you never resorted to those tactics and still ended up with the love you wanted. I'm going to be able to do that, which is something that very few people can say. I'm proud of it and the lucky girl is going to appreciate it.

 

It wasn't so much me consciously making the decision to move away from the 100% nice guy thing, it was more a natural change to a more outgoing, fun, teasing kinda person. I'm really happy in that whoever i end up with will like me for who i am.

 

Some comments on you and the girl you are chatting with...

 

First of all let me say that i think its great that things are going well for you. Hopefully things will keep going well for you and it will all work out!!

 

However, Devils advocate again:

 

What are your thoughts on the possibility that the other guy is more in the frame than you are simply because you do not really know this girl. For instance, what happens if this girl really likes a guy who teases her a bit, and stuff like that. WHat if the 'other guy' is playing his game really well, and she is falling for that rather than for your nice guy thing?

 

She may say to you that your honesty is really refreshing, and she really likes you, but what if there is part of her that likes the other guy more. I have a feeling i know what you will say to this (something along the lines of "so be it, i'd like to think she will like me for who i am"). I just think that in this case, there is nothing wrong with at least considering the otehr options available to you. Having said that, i guess it is all down to your own judgement of what this girl is like.

 

Sorry if this post is a bit long!!

[DropToZero]

Hey All,

 

Umm...Shysoul, girls and guys think ....soo differently. You're talking about basic wants and needs....I'm talking about ....what's the word....translation...whether it be mind or word.

 

I don't have specific examples...its late at nite, so I dont really think well..I just wanna keep this post up in the top for all to reply on . Why are you talking about long-term relationships.....when you've barely dated this girl? This is where I had my problem with your ideas before....You think you know so much about dating and relationships...but all your info and ideas...are philosophical from what ever you've read..heard...seen...whatever. You are basing your proof off of one girl now that you've met, and I really hate to be mean...but its reality, I dont believe you will be with her in the long run, at least as the type of relationship you want. Sooner or later your feelings are going to drive you nuts and you're going to lay it out on her....that's control. Because unless she lays out hers then and there when you do...she has something over you....your feelings, and not hers in return. I think you could be friends with her, but I don't really think that's what you want....whether you say it or want to admit it.

 

Yea...girls like...and talk about sex a lot more than I ever thought. Because I used to be the guy who always said "Im not in it for sex" or dating for it...whatever. That was the old insecure nice guy crap that I believed when in reality....most girls talk and think about it more than I ever thought. They aren't out looking for the nice guys.....that's why there are 'players'...guys that are soooo(and girls) great at flirting and teasing that they can get girls to sleep with them in one nite, whether the girl was 'like that' or not. Then, they never hear from the guy....and no I'm not like this, just pointing it out.

 

I don't know how I can get it thru your head, that laying all that information out there...like wanting to kiss, telling all feelings...it removes all doubt...all the fun....and all the excitement of 'wondering' what's going on between two people. You...will bore her sooner or later...become predictable....its boring....its human nature as I've said. Anticipation...and doubt is what keeps people(for me, girls) wondering whether you like her or not. If you want to know personally....the girl I dated a few weeks ago. I think I screwed it up a little bit....see...on accident....I became a little 'too' available....talking with her online too much. It went from her complaining that I didnt talk to her enough(she used to ALWAYS Instant msg me...everytime I got online, and wonder where'd I'd been and ask why I hadn't called or something), and didnt get online much to talk...etc......to NOW...currently...I'm losing her attraction a little b/c I started getting online too much, and talking for few too many hours. She kinda flaked out on me a little bit ago and we didn't get to hang out. See it sucks...I hate it, but now in order to probably get her back to wondering about me, I'm gonna have to go and see her, flirt a lot, and then like stay offline and not call her. I know..its messed up....but it works....otherwise....if I keep getting online and talking to her, I'm becoming predictable, doing what she wants me to do.....and I'll probably end up being a 'good friend.'...and I dont want that.

 

Again....it IS your inexperience speaking....it IS common sense to THINK that just being straight with everything you want with this girl will work...but it wont in the end. Save those ideas for the actual relationship...

[ShySoul]

spatzcolumbo,

 

Your making yourself perfectly clear, I just can't find the logic behind it. And I'm even more sure of my views now that I have proof that they are working. But you do make me think about things, which is good. If I'm able to fend off your game of devil's advocate then I can be absolutely certain in what I'm saying.

 

You can have fun, laugh, and still be honest. I was talking on the phone with the girl earlier and we had a nice long conversation with plenty of laughter, yet no teasing. I know you think that's crazy, but it is possible. Maybe we just have a really odd sense of humor but we get our laughs from weird and silly things thats not teasing. We're goofy enough to start singing the hokey pokey together or ask out of the blue questions that you wouldn't think about but are funny when you do think about them. Teasing isn't needed to have fun or laugh. There are plenty of other ways to enjoy yourself.

 

My mind works differently I guess. I think of things that accomplish every goal you mentioned without having to include the teasing part. Taking the example you gave, I would have changed it slightly. I would have said, "well, I guess with your youthful good looks you can pass for a teenager." You still get the compliment, a laugh or at least a smile, and a reply (probably along the lines of "thats sweet" or maybe something else that I don't have the brainpower to think of right now). Saying something like that demonstrates that you are nice, thoughful, and sweet. It is a little thing that she will remember. It's still flirting. And you get all of it without playful teasing. Same result, the teasing doesn't get you anywhere or create any extra excitement or feeling.

 

Admittedly I'm not going to be meeting anybody at a par or a club. I stay away from those places because it isn't me and I know that most people there are into these games, some of them only there for the games and not looking for anything real. But I still think the way to handle first meeting someone is to simple be yourself. I'm not saying your not, I'm saying that you should just be more straightforward. "Thats for me to know and you to find out" can be said like this,"I'd tell you but I don't feel comfortable having this kind of conversation with so many people around. Maybe we could meet and talk again sometime?" Getting the same message accross without teasing. And instead of hinting or making them want to come back for more, you can actually find out if they are interested. If your dropping lines like that, clearly you are interested. So why not just go for it.

 

We're in agreement about having a life outside the relationship. You can't make the other person your whole world. That's suffocating. I'm just saying it comes naturally and shouldn't be viewed as holding back at all. The phrase holding back was what was getting me. I would see the girl as much as I can but not go overboard. Clearly people have other things to do and they can't spend all their time together. I don't view that as "holding back" simply the process of ordinary life. Not as big as it seemed, more an issue of semantics.

 

This kiss, this kiss. The thing with me is that I've never got the point of impulse buying or buying something I don't need. When I shop I have a list of everything I need and thats all I get. Saves time, saves money. One thing on the list is snackfood which I do consider an essential, for those times in between meals or before bed. That's where the chocolate cake would go. Ok, now you've made me hungry for chocolate cake. What was the point of this example? Oh, kissing. I still say it is the kiss itself and the love behind it that makes the kiss magical. Hesitating isnt going to add anything that isn't already there. It's not essential and it doesn't add anything to it.

 

Nah, you were consciously aware of what you were doing. I think you are a good guy though I don't agree with the teasing. I'm more concerned with the nice guys who change and aren't as intelligent about it as you seem. From what I've seen, those people are likely to go too far or not succeed because its not really them. It's frustrating to see that when they we're on the right track to begin with.

 

I responded about the girl but the message didn't go through. I'll get back to it tomorrow. Later.

[ShySoul]

LtAwesome,

 

Ah, guys and girls don't think differently. Or at least this guy doesn't think differently so that means it can be done. All my ideas and philosophies are right on. I know this because the girl told me so, just tonight in fact. She said that she is amazed how well I understand relationships and how it seems like I have so much experience, even though I've next to none. And she's not the first girl to say this. Everygirl I bring this up with is shocked that I've never had a relationship. They say I'm the guy that every girl wants to end up with. So what's wrong with that? Why should I change I thing when what I'm doing is what every girl wants? And don't say they don't know what they want cause thats just putting words in there mouth and not listening to what they are telling you.

 

Did you read what I wrote. She's the one who first said she like me. I said that I like her. The feelings are mutual. Neither of us has anything over the other, we both know where we stand. Yes, I admit that I want more and I've even told her that. But I'm not going to rush it or force her to make a choice. Above all else I want her to do what is right for her, I want to see her happy. Should she not choose me, I'll be disappointed but I'll be fine. We'll still be friends, I don't see that changing.

 

Yes, there are players and even the nicest girls can fall from them. Which is why true nice guys are needed to show those girls who have been used like that that there are still guys out there who will care about them and respect them with no ulterior motive. The players are the ones who get cursed and hurt girls, the nice guys are the ones the girls end up with when they are sick of being mistreated. Girls are looking for nice guys. You really think they would be out looking for someone who treats them like dirt?

 

I'm a man of many mysterious so I don't think I'll be boring her anytime soon. If anything I am quiet and shy and yet she is the one who initially kept coming back for more. Now that I know she likes me its like I've got this new sense of energy and enthusiasm. I want to do more, experience things I've never felt or done before. That's not boring, thats even more exciting. It's been two months of nightly chats. Yet we still spent three hours talking tonight, two on the phone. She said that when she talks to me she can go in with the intention of only being a few minutes but stll be talking three hours later before she realizes the time has gone by. She wishes she could spend more time with me in person, if our schedules would permit. Nothing about this says I'm getting boring or predictable. Nothing about this says she is getting tired of me. If anything it is screaming that she is really into me. She's out and out said that she likes the fact that I am straightforward and honest. Thats also her personality, says what she means and is feeling. Based upon common sense and my experience with her, I'd say I'm doing pretty well.

[OceanEyes]

I agree with you here, they DO appreciate honesty. But i also feel that they appreciate fun. They appreciate someone who can make them laugh, and the light hearted teasing that i enjoy is about making them laugh. It is in NO way offensive.

 

I really agree with you here Spatz. I don't think that it's offensive at all to tease light-heartedly, and in fact, can be a real indication of the guy's sense of humour and ability to not take himself too seriously. I'll admit, I've always been a total sucker for a man who teases in 'that way', makes me laugh, and who can also crack jokes about himself.

 

However, sometimes if a guy has a different sense of humour than the girl, it can offend. For example, whenever I hear that Adam Sandler song "Medium Pace", I almost choke from laughing so hard. But, there's a good chance that there are people who would be appalled by vulgar humour like that. Just like you're saying Spatz, it's good to "test the waters" before you start cracking jokes.

[spatzcolumbo]

Hi Shysoul,

 

Just a few thoughts on your latest post:

 

You can have fun, laugh, and still be honest. I was talking on the phone with the girl earlier and we had a nice long conversation with plenty of laughter, yet no teasing. I know you think that's crazy, but it is possible. Maybe we just have a really odd sense of humor but we get our laughs from weird and silly things thats not teasing.

 

Yes you CAN have a load of laughs with someone without teasing them. My point is that some people really like teasing (if it is done right), and thereforeeee to shut that avenue of flirting off to yourself is foolish. I do not rely on teasing alone - i also love to have goofy conversations where you suddenly stop and just burst into laughter because you have realised you're talking about the most absurd thing!

 

My mind works differently I guess. I think of things that accomplish every goal you mentioned without having to include the teasing part. Taking the example you gave, I would have changed it slightly. I would have said, "well, I guess with your youthful good looks you can pass for a teenager." You still get the compliment, a laugh or at least a smile, and a reply (probably along the lines of "thats sweet" or maybe something else that I don't have the brainpower to think of right now). Saying something like that demonstrates that you are nice, thoughful, and sweet. It is a little thing that she will remember. It's still flirting. And you get all of it without playful teasing. Same result, the teasing doesn't get you anywhere or create any extra excitement or feeling.

 

What you would have said is great, and could still be called flirting, but what it lacks is any kind of creation of tension. I know that you don't believe in this 'positive tension'. What you would have said does not get the playful slap on the arm, that all important touch that leads on from simple verbal flirting.

 

Getting the same message accross without teasing. And instead of hinting or making them want to come back for more, you can actually find out if they are interested. If your dropping lines like that, clearly you are interested. So why not just go for it.

 

By saying "That's for me to know and you to find out" is all about subtlety. It is suggesting to someone in a subtle way that you'd like to know a bit more about them, and you'd like them to know a bit more about you, but you'd rather do it at a time that is quieter, and more personal. For instance, i might be out at a pub with a bunch of my friends and a bunch of her friends. It might be obvious to me that there is some level of interest there on both sides, but what if one of us doesn't feel comfortable with letting the whole world know that (even though it is probably obvious to them anyway). What if she would feel embarrassed by me asking her out for a drink infront of everyone else? Would you just go in with your "why not just tell her" attitude, and risk embarrassing her infront of everyone. Or just as badly, embarrassing yourself when you find out you have mis-read the signals!!

 

By using the "That's for me to know..." line, you are basically testing the waters, and letting her know that you would like to see her again, but maybe you'd rather talk about it all, or ask her out on a date in a less public arena. This is one reason to avoid 'just going for it'. It leaves a bit of intrigue, and it also allows you to ask her out in a much more personal way.

 

Hesitating isnt going to add anything that isn't already there. It's not essential and it doesn't add anything to it.

 

All i can say to you about this is...how do you know that it doesn't add anything if you have never tried it!?!

 

You have never tried the hesitating during a kiss thing, so there is NO way you can reliably tell me that it does not add anything! All i ask is that you try it one day, and see what reaction you get. You don't know what a chocolate cake tastes like until you try it!!

 

As far as the way i have changed over the past year...it is not something i have consciously tried to do - it has just happened...maybe i have been AWARE of it, but it is not something ih ave actively pushed or anything like that.

 

Now some thoughts on your post to LT:

 

So what's wrong with that? Why should I change I thing when what I'm doing is what every girl wants? And don't say they don't know what they want cause thats just putting words in there mouth and not listening to what they are telling you.

 

Maybe you shouldn't change - if its working for you, then that is ALL good. However, it is important to be aware of the other options.

 

She said that she is amazed how well I understand relationships and how it seems like I have so much experience, even though I've next to none. And she's not the first girl to say this. Everygirl I bring this up with is shocked that I've never had a relationship. They say I'm the guy that every girl wants to end up with. So what's wrong with that?

 

A few points on this:

 

1 - she has NO idea what EVERY girl wants, just the same as i have no idea.

 

2 - She is possibly partly saying this as she knows it is what you want to hear. This isn't a 'mean' thing to say, but merely something that people naturally do as they know it strokes the other persons ego, and makes them feel better about themselves. They thereforeeee equate feeling good about themselves with being with the person who said it.

 

3 - One of the most important things i have been trying to get accross in all this is that it is so vital that not only are you the person who all the women want to end up with, but that you also know the person who YOU want to end up with. You say that you do know, but as i have said before, i used to think that i knew. In my opinion, it is important to date and be romantically involved with many people before you settle down with 'the one'. It does not take anything away from 'the one'. This will be special no matter what. What it does do however is ensure that you KNOW who 'the one' is. It saves you making the mistake.

 

To quote OceanEyes:

 

admit, I've always been a total sucker for a man who teases in 'that way', makes me laugh, and who can also crack jokes about himself.

 

See, these people DO exist, not every girl hates teasing, or finds it mean. Its all about doing it in the right way, and getting a bit of fun out of it. Not everything in life is meant to be deadly serious.

 

It's all about reading the person, and gauging what turns them on, and what doesn't. If you are really attracted to someone, and she is attracted to you, then surely from what you are saying, you'd do anything to make her happy. What if one of the things that made her happy was laughing and what if she enjoyed being teased? Would you refuse to tease her because you say it does not fit in with the 'nice guy' thing?

[DropToZero]

See....wow....you still don't understand. You're talking about basic ideas of life...and relationships...I'm talking about translation...but I'm going to have to actually search for some help on this and get back to you on why guys and girls think so differently...b/c I can't think of anything off the top of my head right now.

 

All your philosophies and ideas...are RIGHT on? ...According to who, the one girl you're seeing right now, and yea...I'd believe that other girls have TOLD you that your ideas are right...when in reality, those arent the type of guys they're going for. By the way...if they told you this, why didn't you ask for their numbers?...b/c If it made sense...and they WERE looking for guys like this, they should've been...somewhat interested in you...am I right?

 

Again...you're exactly right....You're doing everything that girl wants...you're what every girl wants to be with in the end. I personally don't see an 'in the end' tho...b/c you have to have a first...and like most things in life, we fail the first time, only to try again. You're being exactly what most girls would 'say' they want from a guy.....as much as it SOUNDS awesome when a girl says that, again....wouldnt it makes sense that you'd have had more luck with women prior to the last few months? This is the translation stuff I cant think of off hand....but anyways, I WAS EXACTLY LIKE YOU....again, I was told the same exact total BS from girls too that I was such a nice guy, and that I seemed like I'd be great for a relationship...whatever....I never dated them.

 

Yet we still spent three hours talking tonight, two on the phone. She said that when she talks to me she can go in with the intention of only being a few minutes but stll be talking three hours later before she realizes the time has gone by

 

Umm...yea, you'd better tone that down....You're going to be her best friend in life...and I know that's not what you want. You may love talking to her, and she may love talking to you hours on end....but you're going to end up being her best guy friend. You're goin to become the guy that she comes to when she has problems with her b/fs....or the in-between guy to comfort her when she's between b/fs. I'm serious...I'll put money on it if you don't believe me. Because I've seen it, had it done to me, and been told BY a girl who's done it to a guy....you're just going to be a great friend(which isnt bad), but I don't think its what you want.

[ShySoul]

spatzcolumbo,

 

I've never said that some girls don't like the teasing, I'm saying that there are plenty who don't. They are the ones that I would be attracted to. I've always lived my life by the rule that I should always stay true to myself. If I'm not one to tease, then I'm not going to. You say I'm closing off an avenue, I say I'm ditching the detours and staying focus on the direction I know is right for me and will lead me to the ultimate destination. Anygirl I would want to be with appreciates me for me, and part of me is not teasing or playing games.

 

I've said it before, if you are going to tease, tease yourself. I'm perfectly fine being the brunt of all jokes. It still displays a sense of humor and willingness to laugh. It puts a smile on her face and makes her happy. I can be extremely silly, I've even tried to inject some humor into these posts every know and then. But my humor doesn't come from teasing and if I tried it almost certainly wouldn't work. So I'm sticking to being the nice guy which is clearly working for me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

What I would have said doesn't get a slap on the arm but it gets me in her head. Saying those kinds of things demonstrate what a nice, sweet guy I am and she'll find herself thinking of me more later on. She'll remember the compliments and I'll be on her mind. Possibly she'll be so impressed by my honesty and sincerity that she'll start to think of me more and begin to see that she likes me. That's what I think has happened with the girl. Not that this is my goal, I say things like that simply because its true and a nice thing to say. But that is the sideaffect. And once she grows to like me, that can lead into the touch or more physical elements.

 

I understand what you are saying about being subtle. But in my experience subtle leaves to much room for miscommunication or the possibility that someone won't pick it up. I think that the way to go about things is to just be direct. You can be tactful without saying something like "its for you to find out." Wait until you get a moment alone and then ask her if you are concerned about doing it in front of people. Ooh, if its a place you can dance at, ask her to dance and ask her then. Your showing you are interested in two way, the dance and asking her out. If you've misread the signals, then play it cool saying thats alright. And speaking of signals, there are plenty of other ways to give hints you are interested. You can tell from the look in a persons eyes, the tone of there voice, the smile on there face, how interested they are in the conversation, etc. Plenty of ways to subtly show interest or "test the waters" without teasing. But at some point you do just have to go for it. And how does it get more personal then actually asking her, putting yourself out there and openly admitting that you want to spend more time with her?

 

It's precisely because I haven't tried hesitating or even kissing that I know it doesn't add. Actually, I have hesitated. I've been hesitating for 22 years to make sure that when it happens it will be with the right person and will be the most exilerating moment of my life thus far. So when I finally do kiss, theres not going to be any hesitation. Not for the first kiss or for any kiss after. The last 22 years have been long enough. Being able to kiss someone will mean that I've found someone truly special and I'll want to show her how much I care. I'll cover her in kisses and let the love and passion in my heart flow from them. It's not the hesitation, its not the wait, it's the love. The love makes the kiss special and if the love is there, kiss already.

 

I am aware of other options, I just don't agree with them. I've always been one to observe everything around me and find out more. I recognize all methods and mesh them together taking the things that I see work and are right for me. Everything that I am doing is what ultimately leads to a successful relationship and fits who I am. If it ain't broke, don't fix it and I'm far from broke, more like running in top condition right now.

 

When I said every girl I was referring to the fact that every girl I have known and mentioned this topic to says the same thing. I'm sure that some girl's disagree but they aren't the ones I'm around. Every girl has complimented me on how nice I am, has been surprised that I've never had a girlfriend, and says that I'm the guy that girls want in the end.

 

Some girls might say it just because they think its what I want to hear, playing the same game that you guys all like to play. But not this girl. She openly admits to being very direct and honest, saying what she means even at times when its not necessarily wise to speak out. Plus I'm a pretty good judge of character. I can tell that she is sincere in what she says.

 

"The one" can be something that you KNOW without having to date around. Call me a hopeless romantic, but the idea of saving yourself for just the right person, meeting, falling in love and spending the rest of your life together is perfect. I already know what I want, I've known it since I was young. I knew at 12 for sure, maybe earlier. Crazy? Possibly. But thats who I am. I've never had any desire to date many people to find out what I like, I've always been very intune with myself and known what I like. My opinion hasn't changed since then. If anything I've just confirmed it time and time again. I'm not making a mistake, I'm doing what my heart tells me is right. And I'm not trying to be the person girls want to be with, I'm being the person I know I am. It just so happens that girls like that. Better for me as eventually I'll find someone who is interested in me and willing to take that step with me. Hopefully it's coming up real soon with this girl.

[ShySoul]

LtAwesome,

 

Maybe if you have to research how guys and girls are different, they aren't so different afterall? I can point out all kinds of similarites off hand, including what I think you are getting at with translation. Go ahead and find examples. I'll just consider it a challenge to be able to counter them. The more I can defend my view, the more confidence I can in it.

 

Your assuming that you know what girls want and that what they say isn't what they mean. Granted, that's true for some girls, and some guys to. But most do know what they want. Try listening to them, it works wonders. The reason it never worked out was because there wasn't that kind of connection there before. Not enough in the way of similar interests or hobbies. Those are important things to have. There were also other circumstances - she already had a boyfriend, she'd been hurt in the past and wasn't ready to open herself to that kind of relationship again. Guys like me are the ones they go for in the end. And we are the guys they turn to after all the jerks have hurt them as we make them feel safe, secure, loved, and appreciated.

 

Yeah, it does seem like I would have had more luck before the last few months. Then again, I seem to have an ongoing battle going with fate and luck. But everything happens for a reason. I haven't had as much luck to help me see what I really want from a relationship. It's giving me time to grow as a person and become the person I truly am and want to be. Now when that relationship comes along I will be ready and confident in myself. I will appreciate what I have more because I've gone so long without it. I won't fail. At the very least I'm sure I've made a lifelong friend here, we've both said that. And friendship is the most important thing here. Afterall, what is a relationship other than being someones best and closest friend, with some extras like kissing thrown in for fun.

 

Actually, she is the one who initates most of the contact so clearly she wants to talk to me her. If anyone is going to be slowing it down it would be her. But she doesn't want to do that and I don't want her to. Plus she wants to spend the day with me next friday. Dude, we're enjoying this too much to stop. I'm pretty confident that best guy thing isn't what is going on. But even if it is, so what? I want what makes her happy, even if that means she ends up with someone else. That's a true and unselfish love, or unselfish attraction at this point.