What kind of "love" do women really want?

[Michael36]

Over the years I've noticed two things about women that seem to explain why they have such a hard time being truly happy in their relationships.

 

The first thing I've noticed is that, if a girl senses that her guy's love for her is unconditional, she tends to lose respect for him and becomes, as a result of this lack of respect, incapable of being happy with him even if she "loves" him.

 

The second thing I've noticed is that, if a girl senses that her guy's love for her is conditional, she usually has respect for him, but still finds herself unhappy because she doesn't have the sense of security that she craves, i.e., the sense that it's really her that he loves, and not just the pleasure that she gives him. (If it's merely the pleasure, then it's just a matter of time, she thinks to herself, before he cheats on her with a girl who's better at giving pleasure than she is.)

 

Is this why it's usually the "nice" guy who gets cheated on, why it's usually the "jerk" who receives undying loyalty, and why women usually end up unhappy regardless of which type they're with?

[asdf]

if somebody treats you way too nice, it's freaky. jerks are more masculine.

[Michael36]

if somebody treats you way too nice, it's freaky. jerks are more masculine.

What exactly does that mean? Can you give some examples?

[Scout]

Michael, that's funny, because I've observed the same thing about men. Could this be a human condition, rather than a gender one?

[fallslikerain]

so hows a 'nice' guy supposed to win?

[goddess23]

first of all, the point you made that as a woman (well at least me lol) that we lose respect for a guy if he loves us unconditionally. well let me say this, if a guy loves me for who i am, loves me alott, i love him even more. but yes we would lose resepct if a guy just "loves" us, as in is veryyy whipped, i personally hate that, but some girls get a kick out of it. but if a guy loves us NO MATTER WHAT WE DO, NO MATTER WHAT WE SAY, it means he just doesnt know what love is. i mean its good if he can still care for the person but at the same time know that it means maybe he has to let go because shes a...well you know...lol. love is conditional. it depends on MUTUAL respect, trust and understanding. but i will agree that if we are smothered by a guy with even love, it makes us want to run, because everything needs to be in moderation. you need your own time, you need to know that somehow God forbid anything happen, you're not COMPLETELY dependant on that person. and i agree, that both genders are this way.

 

but honestly i think unconditional love, as in the kind that i explained is just ridiculous. you do still love the person but its in a different way. real love is when you know you want them to be happy and that you will always care for them, but know sometimes where to draw the line. that sometimes that person just doesnt deserve your love. i dont know if im making any sense to any of you lol, but i know what im saying. so i think there needs to be a balence. thats the only way it will ever be healthy. for both genders.

[DragonGirl724]

i think a lot of it depends on the maturity level of the individuals. when someone is ready & wants a love that will last. the only way to love, in my eyes, is to have an unconditional, devoted, trusted, well established mature love. THAT DOESNT MEAN BORING!! it means understood & established, balanced, commited. if the party is not on that level he/she seeks the thrill of the chase & more than likely isnt ready to settle down, or maybe just simply doesnt want to or fears to.

 

-DG724

[mahlina]

Me personally, I don't buy into the notion of respecting a guy who gives conditionally. When I sense that a guy's trying to play some kind of cat and mouse game, by not being himself, and limiting himself from being who he truly is, or even trying to be someone who he's not, then I immediately lose interest. I think that the key thing here is: generosity. If a guy is sincere, then I will sense it, and appreciate him more. But if a person's not sincere, and does things as though he's trying to get game, then I lose interest fast.

 

Basically, I think that it's best to be yourself, always. If women can't like you for who you are, then it's no one's loss. Perhaps it's just incompatability. Now, in terms of some partners being doormats, that could be a turnoff as well... but I think it's more tied into the fact that the other partner just did not exactly share the same strong feelings for their significant other in the first place. They just 'settle' with that person, as a way to fill in a void. That's why, their partners become somewhat of a doormat. It's sad! That's not what love's about. Love is about two partners feeling that mutual attraction for each other. That's when you know that you have truly found your 'soul-mate.'

 

I think that as women gain experiences from their relationships, they learn to recognize a pattern of guys who are genuine vs. those who aren't. They grow an immunity to those who mistreat them, and start to appreciate the nice guys more. Of course, not all women will learn their lessons. Some women aimlessly continue on with their lives, and never learn. Sometimes, they don't develop common sense, and always chase after the bad guys who don't treat them right (i.e. getting involved with the married man scenario). It's as if they have this driving desire to want what they can't have. It's sad, but I honestly think that the majority of women are not like this.

 

I also find that it's hard for two nice people to run into each other, because they're either too shy, and things don't go anywhere. Or they have fears, and self-doubt, which prevents them from truly letting go, and enjoying relationships for what it is. I don't know, but it intrigues me how relationships/marriages seem to fall apart so quickly these days. Seems like no one loves for love anymore. They're too busy worrying about loving selfishly, instead of selflessly. Perhaps it's just the attitude of our generation of people, who mistakingly lose respect for chivalry, and don't appreciate it for what it is? Who knows. I know for a fact that I do appreciate it. I also notice a correllation for couples who are older, who do practice common respect, that their marriages seem to last longer. So, I also think that this has a lot to do with 'values' and the 'attitude' that a person has. Anyway, just my opinion. I think that you nice men should honestly hold onto faith. Don't ever allow yourselves to feel jaded. There are nice women who respect nice men. Don't lose hope. Hang in there.

[Mun]

I believe that the key to a loving, healthy relationship is mutual respect. The way to keep this respect is by never allowing the other person to walk all over you. Always treat yourself well and you are less likely to engage someone who will mistreat you. If they do, you will see it at first glance and walk away.

 

I feel that when we start to lower our standards we start to cheat ourselves. Maintain a standard of the kind of relationship you want and don't settle. When you treat yourself with respect others will pick up on this and treat you the same.

 

This means you love, but you do not love without establishing boundaries. That is the middle ground between loving unconditionally and "needing the relationship to exist" which translates to weakness, turn off. Or loving with conditions, being over-confident, turn on but co-dependent in a sense. If you step back and look at this again you will see that they are different sides of the same coin. One depends on the other, one becomes weak, the other arrogant. They lose their mutual respect because they are no longer equals.

 

So that is why a woman will lose respect for a man who will be there no matter what...and a man will do the same with a woman. Scout is right, it's a human behavior not gender specific.

 

So my answer here would be that I want a man who will love me, but will not love me and forget about himself in the process. He should be a man of his word. He should always stand up for himself, even with me, and never let me or anyone else walk all over him. That's a man I can truly respect and trust.

[mahlina]

Well said Muneca, I agree.

[lonelynshy]

Michael, you are totally correct. That was a very good post. Girls are just incapable of being happy. They find a nice guy not enough challenge, not 'rough and tough' enough,etc. At the same time they're obviously not happy with a jerk. They have themselves to blame for not finding the right guy because there IS no right guy for them. If girls want to play games, let them do so on a Playstation. There's no need to destroy a guy's life (and I mean a nice guy) by continually expecting him to produce a challenge for her. I have a feeling I'll be single for the rest of my life. I've tried putting on a jerk facade but I just couldn't do it.

[lonelynshy]

"I think that as women gain experiences from their relationships, they learn to recognize a pattern of guys who are genuine vs. those who aren't. They grow an immunity to those who mistreat them, and start to appreciate the nice guys more"

 

Mahlina, I agree with your post and you brought up a point that I have frequently wanted to discuss. I'm not contesting your statement but I would like you to know how some nice guys feel.

 

Why would we want such a woman who's been 'used' and re-used and then finally comes to us? We're human beings too, we deserve love and respect. We're not these women's daddies, to be able to forgive them for everything and always be there for them. If some woman went through the transition of liking a jerk to liking a nice guy and she seeked me out, I would dump her fast; even if she hadn't known me before. The fact that she had rejected other nice guys in her past would be enough to make me run a mile. It doesn't mean I like being single, it just means I respect myself enough to not fill in as a replacement. This is why some of us end up being bitter jerks. And it doesn't help by then, because the women don't like jerks anymore anyway

[mahlina]

I understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to say that nice men are leftovers. It's just that, everytime I personally meet someone who I think is 'nice', turns out, it's just the oppossite. That's what makes the shy nice guys seems more respectable. But, I have bad luck. Me being shy, I'm usually approached by the so-called nice guys who are more extraverted, who just had a really good way of masking their intentions. So, my point is, don't take any offense to what I said. I know that you guys have feelings too.

 

And, I did not reject the nice guys in the past, just because they were nice. In fact, it's just the fact that the 'nice' people who appeared to be nice, somewhat made me feel as though I could not completely trust them. How am I supposed to know if they're nice or not, especially if I sense that they're not taking me seriously, and are just playing games with my heart? I mean, I have to watch my back, and not get hurt too! When I sense that someone's playing games, I do the same. I run away, and try to avoid getting to know that person any further. I don't want to end up with a broken heart either. I already encountered enough heartache while growing up. I don't need that torment again, not especially in my adult life, when I'm actually trying to repatch my 'trust' issues for the oppossite sex, when in fact, the oppossite sex was the same person, who repeatedly slapped it in my face as a kid, and truly wounded my ability to trust. For personal reasons, I don't want to get into details. But, overall, my process of elimination mostly deals with not wanting to feel that hurt again. It's just my protective barrier. At least, I'm still trying to work at being able to trust again.

[ayekasong]

It's just that, everytime I personally meet someone who I think is 'nice', turns out, it's just the oppossite.

 

This is so true. Time and time again I hear "nice" guys complain to me about how they can never find women, that they finish last, I often find myself thinking "do you really think you treat women in a nice manner?" I've seen a lot of self-proclaimed "nice guys" treat women like dirt. My boyfriend's housemate complains to me about this a lot - admittedly, he is pretty nice, but he's got some serious personal hangups (not to mention the "girls don't like me because I'm nice" demeanor), which are huge turnoffs. My boyfriend is a "nice" guy, but no one is perfect either.

 

During my lifetime (okay I am not as experienced as some people are here), I have seen truly nice guys end up in wonderful and happy relationships with nice girls. Yes, it does happen, and those guys usually not upset or bummed because "nice guys finish last." They keep busy.

 

As was said before, it's all about respect. If a guy is showering me with attention as though he has no life outside of me, it creeps me out a little. You not only need to have mutual respect, but you also need to respect yourself. Love your partner, but love yourself enough to have a life outside of him or her. As harsh as it may sound, having the "nice guys always finish last" attitude really needs to go. It's self-fulfiling prophecy.

[mahlina]

I've seen a lot of self-proclaimed "nice guys" treat women like dirt.

Thank you Ayekasong. I couldn't have said it any better. See, Lonelynshy, I wasn't attracted to bad boys in the past. In fact, I always disliked the typical 'jock mentality.' They're not my cup of tea. My attraction was always for nice guys. But when I did meet a nice guy, he would end up showing me his true colors. That's when I get hurt. At least I learned my lesson, and am careful with those who I meet. You also have to understand that with nice women, we're not asking to get hurt.

 

No. That's not the case at all. Some nice women know what they want. When they think that they found what they want, they're fooled. Some guys just have a really good way of masking their intentions. And, it's not the woman's fault if she was hurt. It's not their fault that these men were the ones who walked into their lives, and decided to corrupt them. I want to let you understand a woman's perspective about this as well. It's frustrating for us. We don't ask for pain. We don't look for the wrong types of guys. Some of us are just unlucky to run into them. They're the ones who find us. We don't find them. It's annoying when these patterns of hurt seem to never end. So, welcome to heartbreak hotel. This is our world. We don't choose it. We try to avoid it. (At least some of us do). The last thing that we need is punishment for our heartaches.

 

But, I do understand where you are coming from though. Just don't lose hope. The more people think negatively, the more thay will just buy into this kind of delusional life of "Men/Women. You can't live with them, and you can't live without them." It's all about understanding the oppossite sex, and hopefully being able to meet each other somewhere in between, on middle ground.

[ShySoul]

Alot of time people put up a facade around others, trying to be what they think others want instead of being themselves. But ultimately our true colors show through. This makes it really hard for the people who try to just be who they are at all times. They put their trust in someone only to find out he or she wasn't the person they thought. When you get burned like that several times it becomes hard to trust others. Your just waiting for them to turn on you because it's what you've come to expect from experience. Girls, and guys too, often go into a relationship because they think the other person is nice and sweet, only to find a completely different person and personality than they expected. Isn't that a popular reason people give for breakups, "(s)he wasn't the same person I feel in love with?"

 

You do need to have confidence in yourself. Instead of feeling like a replacement or a last resort why don't you think positive. Think of yourself as a knight in shining armor here to help the girl get over all the pain and bad relationships she's had before. If your a true nice guy and stay that way, the girl will like you more. You'll have shown her that real nice guys still exist and she'll be greatful for it.

[Mjane]

Girls do like nice guys, but we don't like pushovers or wimps. The issue with "nice guys" isn't that they are nice guys... that bull. The guys that are having women treat them poorly or walk all over them or essentially are blaming being nice for being unsuccessful in relationships is because they GIVE way too much way too SOON and lack self confidence.

Women can smell out weak guys in a second. The key is to have more self control and not be so obvious or desperate.

The key to scoring with women is confidence, self control, a pleasant appearance (clean, freshly showered, somewhat in style), kindness and being romantic.

It's not that hard. In the first three months of dating or so you've got to take it easy and relax. Don't be too eager, don't give too much, don't profess deep feelings that you can't possibly feel, etc. Take it day by day. It's not that women like jerks but it's like any mystery or puzzle. Men and woman enjoy the time and fun it takes to get to know someone. Noone wants the puzzle solved before you even take out the pieces.

Mix in a little romance, kindness and attentiveness, and you've got a successful mix.

[Mun]

Oh MJane,

I second that !

 

She hit a homerun guys. I hope you read what she said. That is exactly the way I see it too. We want a man who will treat us nice and be romantic, but we don't want it all at once-- it's overwhelming--we want it in small doses.

 

I think this works both ways. How would you feel if a girl was hanging all over you and declaring her love after only 2 weeks? (This is just an example)

 

Too much attention too soon is a bit of a turn off. For me it makes me think " why is he like this? is he that needy?" When you slow down it's more fun getting to know you. It's like opening a gift slowly and all the time wondering what will be inside.

 

When you slow down it gives the impression that you are confident. Just like Mjane said, you are in control of yourself. It's like you know you're special, so you don't have to rush .

 

 

This is from a song;

just one kiss for now

more will follow later

if love is forever

why are we rushing to get there?

[Michael36]

Girls do like nice guys, but we don't like pushovers or wimps.

Whatever that means.

 

The issue with "nice guys" isn't that they are nice guys...

Sorry, but from what I've observed, that is exactly what the issue is more often than not.

 

The guys that are having women treat them poorly or walk all over them or essentially are blaming being nice for being unsuccessful in relationships is because they GIVE way too much way too SOON and lack self confidence.

That is a ridiculous overgeneralization. Yes, there are some men out there who have these characteristics, but that's not what I was referring to in the post which started this thread.

 

I specifically referred to men whose love for the women they're with happens to have reached the depth at which it becomes "unconditional." By "unconditional," I don't mean showering her with non-stop affection or obeying her every command like a mindless slave. I simply mean that his desire to be with her no longer depends on her feeling the same way about him. He wants to be with her, simply because he does; not because of what she does to please him (sexually or otherwise), nor because there's not a more attractive girl available to him.

 

That you would automatically equate this with lacking confidence or with giving away too much too soon illustrates the very point I was trying to make: that most women seem incapable of respecting men who express this sort of love for them, no matter how long they date them before expressing it, and no matter how many hoops they jump through to prove their "self-confidence."

 

Women can smell out weak guys in a second.

The problem is that many women seem to have a ridiculously broad definition of "weak." So broad, in fact, that guys practically have to be self-serving jerks for these women to be convinced they're not weak. Yet what do most women do when guys act the only way they're allowed to act if they're to avoid being labeled "weak"? Complain about guys being "jerks." As if they would have it any other way!

 

The key is to have more self control and not be so obvious or desperate.

In other words, pretend you don't give a crap. Then watch as the women who say this complain about why they keep attracting men who really don't give a crap beyond what they can get from them sexually.

 

The key to scoring with women is confidence, self control, a pleasant appearance (clean, freshly showered, somewhat in style), kindness and being romantic.

This may come as a shock, but even nice guys tend to shower everyday. They also tend to be "kind" and "romantic," so those are hardly determining factors. "Confidence" and "self-control" are what it really comes down to. Women are so obsessed with a guy appearing "confident" (i.e. having no insecurities of any kind) that men purposely avoid caring, because the less you care, the more confident and "in control" you will seem to the woman you're trying to "score" with. This is why guys who are giving advice to younger ones often say things like: "The less respect you give a woman, the more respect you get back from her."

 

From what I've observed over the years, virtually all men have insecurities of one kind or another. To have such feelings is to be human. Yet by most women's standards, a guy can't be human in this sense without being "weak." That is why men lie as often as they do. They lie about who they really are deep down because women want us to. I'm not complaining that they want us to. I just want them to admit to wanting it.

 

In the first three months of dating or so you've got to take it easy and relax. Don't be too eager, don't give too much, don't profess deep feelings that you can't possibly feel, etc. Take it day by day.

What a crock. Do you know how many times I've seen women who say this crap turn around a contradict themselves by giving passionate sex (difficult to be much more "giving" than that) to some manipulative jerk they just met at a party, and by professing deep feelings for him a mere three weeks later (if not sooner)? Why the double standard?

[Mun]

There is no double standard relating to how much you should give sexually or emotionally at the beginning of a relationship. The ideal standard is applicable to both sexes.

 

Anytime a woman gives herself sexually right off the bat she is running the risk that the man she is with will think 1. she is easy 2. how much can I get out of her. Same thing for a guy who gives too much of himself emotionally to a woman he hardly knows she might think 1. he is too needy 2. how much can I get out of him. This is not because either sex is evil but because it's just human nature. (Maybe it's our egos at work.. who knows?)

 

Doing backflips for someone is not the way to win them over. You must maintain your dignity and pace yourself in the relationship. If you don't then chances are you are heading for disaster.

 

There is nothing wrong with being a nice guy.. the difference between him and the "jerk" is that the jerk goes for what he wants without thinking of the other persons feelings. He is only thinking of himself. The nice guy is more considerate but sometimes he goes overboard in trying to "please" in order to win--just like the too nice girl does.

 

The way I see it someone either likes you or they don't .. you can try all you want but you really shouldn't have to convince someone that they like you back.

 

What all of us should do is simply believe in ourselves. If we hold ourselves in high regard then we will not engage someone who mistreats us or ignores us. Having a certain amount of dignity will save us from alot of unecessary heartache.

 

I reference to the original question:

 

What kind of love do women want? I think we want the same kind of love men want... the kind that grows over time and is cherished because it is not handed over like a cheap cigar.

 

and that's my 2 cents

 

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[ziggystar]

i think overall the sex question is tricky. i'm a man. i find that i've fallen into a pattern with concern to "when to have sex?" and the pattern has stabilized to "on the 3rd date." how i got to that pattern concerns 2 points. one, going too fast suggest that's all i'm after. two, waiting too long and the woman thinks i'm not attracted. so that's the establish pattern i've been taking. but....

 

this pattern is ludicrous. it doesn't take into account, both party seems to substitute sex for real intimacy. and real intimacy takes time. it takes time to establish. once having sex, there's this sense that you know the inner depths of another person, because of the physically intimate nature of sex. but it doesn't account for the mental and emotional connection. you get a false sense of intimacy that leads to misunderstanding down the line (which is not too much later). So now, i choose to delay having sex too soon to opt for more honesty to begin with, expressing this very concern at the moment when sex as a normal consequence is about to happen. if the person is mature enough then they'll understand. if not, then it becomes a red flag on them. as far as having the will power to do it, i'm 38 and should have learned something by now. there's no guaranties, but by being a little more cautious and honest, you can only better the situation.

[Double J]

Girls do like nice guys, but we don't like pushovers or wimps. The issue with "nice guys" isn't that they are nice guys... that bull. The guys that are having women treat them poorly or walk all over them or essentially are blaming being nice for being unsuccessful in relationships is because they GIVE way too much way too SOON and lack self confidence.

Women can smell out weak guys in a second. The key is to have more self control and not be so obvious or desperate.

 

She's right on the money. Giving way too much too soon kills the mystery and challenge that girls love in the dating game. So many guys think that they can attract women by being nice and buying them gifts and dinners. It doesn't work that way- it has more of an adverse effect. It's like buying their affection. If a girl likes YOU she should care less about the things you buy her. I'm not saying you should never buy her anything, but if a girl isn't deserving of being showered with these things (because she's self-conscious herself that she hasn't done anything to deserve that treatment), then don't do it.

[Mun]

This girl just took the words right out of my mouth ( or is that fingertips?) I totally agree with her opinion. Maybe it will help some guys out there She posted it in the Dating forum awhile back, but it caught my eye. I think it's very true.

[Cougar_20]

There is a lot of truth in this thread. You can still be a nice guy and pull women, you just have to challenge them at the same time. I am proud of the fact that I am a nice guy, but I'm not so nice when someone tried to step on my toes. I stand very firmly by the things that I believe in life, and am not scared to let anyone know how I feel. But at the same time, I am honest, compassionate and loving towards the people that I care for. In this world you have to establish respect for yourself in every situation, and once you have the ability to do that, you will have the world in your hands. Don't let people walk all over you, don't comprimise your values, and stand up for what you believe in. If you can do this, while being a nice guy, you will get women. Respect, self confidence, and strong beliefs that you stand by are more important than anything else.

[Mjane]

I'm sorry that I didn't defend myself six weeks ago against the bitter diatribe, but I just haven't been around.

I wanted to clarify something and Cougar emphasized it. To change your dating habits takes a conscious recognition of what you are doing wrong. You also have to be willing to make changes if you want to get the relationship you desire. I learn from every relationship I have and I'm still learning and searching.

Giving too much too soon is a big killer. So is never giving at all. Relationships take a delicate balance of characteristics and personality. Most relationships don't work out... it's like... and it's best to move on with love than hold yourself back with hate and bitterness.

I just wanted to comment on Ziggy's remarks. I'm 35 and I like to wait -- a few months -- before having sex. I've realized it's best for me because if a guy sticks around that long, I know he's not dating me for sex. And I've found that I don't get insecure and doubt his feelings for me when I wait.