Why would he do this?

[Nattersmatter]

And I HATE the feeling of not feeling like I have control.

 

Achilles Heel alert!!!!!

 

Who the hell told you that human beings get to control their destiny and everything towards it??? What - all those multitudes of oh-so-happy-and-sorted adults out there? HAH! They're all Mid Life Crisis-bound and falling prey to it as we speak! They are those that *didn't* learn the whopping great lesson in the form of Fate time and time again spanking their self-aggrandised little bottoms whilst yelling, '*I* am the boss - the most I let you contribute is *half* and even *then* you're especially privileged! - know your place, you cheeky little upstart!'

 

The control delusion... the idea that just because we have a SENSE of being conscious that this "consciousness" is the navigator and racing car driver rather than what is is: merely the COMMENTATOR (but without constant visual link). FACT - "just in" - consciousness is merely RECOGNITION AND SELF-FEEDBACK. It is absolutely *not* the executor. "Ummm... I'll have *strawberry* flavour", you say, and believe you've made the decision. Oh, no you didn't. You RECEIVED/RECOGNISED the internal memo - and as much as 6 seconds after it was typed - that said, 'The inner animals wants strawberry flavour; get it, please, Gofer. Cheers.'

 

Six seconds. Just for trivia like a flavour choice. Now imagine the delay over MASSIVE, LIFE-CHANGING DECISIONS.

 

Interferer/interloper/interceder/mere observer/servant/delayer? Yes. Sometimes helpful? Yes. Often not, the opposite (thanks to being a Gofer who thinks he's the company director)? Yes............. "And! here! comes! Anton! Senna....a-round! the! hairpin bend!.... yadder-yadder-yadder... [car disappears out of view].... b*llocks-b*llocks-purely-assumptive-b*llocks....".

 

It's moreover just a *witness* (and by whatever period after the fact at that).

 

 

He might surprise you later down the line and he might not...

 

Feelings change equals attitude changes equals behaviour changes equals outcomes change/Outcomes change equals behaviour changes equals attitude changes equals feelings change.

 

He could win the lottery next week. And wouldn't *that* be a solution! In fact, I've established it wouldn't but something else as forces him to very quickly grow up, might. Such major life and capability-altering surprises happen. Does it happen a lot? Quite a bit, yes. Does it always accomplish what it should? Noooo. Rarely. All TOO rarely these days, more's the pity. It's therefore realistic but (with a case like him) sadly a bit too RARE thus mostly unlikely.

 

No-one can say he's not your man until he can no longer BE your man. But *current as well as medium-term-affective* events are saying it doesn't look like he is so the SELF-SENSIBLE thing to do is to behave accordingly and take advantage of this fate-given catalyst to self-improve and strengthen, including finding ways to make your weaknesses your strengths and weaken so-called strengths that IN THIS ARENA are actually no such thing, so that you'll be equipped - at least on your side - to not only enter a mature romantic union but go some way (50%) towards guaranteeing you won't ever have to exit it. And from now on bear in mind that your 50% and the man's 50% do not equal 100% due to the existence of the third mover and shaker (call that life, fate, god, whatever) which can suddenly step in whenever it likes and for whatever purpose and transform the playing field and all results as stem from there as drastically as it likes.... aka, The best laid plans of mice and men....

 

Small, crafty, cowering, timorous little beast,

O, what a panic is in your little breast!

You need not start away so hasty

With argumentative chatter!

I would be loath to run and chase you,

With murdering plough-staff.

 

I'm truly sorry man's dominion

Has broken Nature's social union,

And justifies that ill opinion

Which makes you startle

At me, your poor, earth born companion

And fellow mortal!

 

I doubt not, sometimes, but you may steal;

What then? Poor little beast, you must live!

An odd ear in twenty-four sheaves

Is a small request;

I will get a blessing with what is left,

And never miss it.

 

Your small house, too, in ruin!

Its feeble walls the winds are scattering!

And nothing now, to build a new one,

Of coarse grass green!

And bleak December's winds coming,

Both bitter and keen!

 

You saw the fields laid bare and wasted,

And weary winter coming fast,

And cozy here, beneath the blast,

You thought to dwell,

Till crash! the cruel plough passed

Out through your cell.

 

That small bit heap of leaves and stubble,

Has cost you many a weary nibble!

Now you are turned out, for all your trouble,

Without house or holding,

To endure the winter's sleety dribble,

And hoar-frost cold.

 

But little Mouse, you are not alone,

In proving foresight may be vain:

The best laid schemes of mice and men [borne from Expectation]

Go often awry,

And leave us nothing but grief and pain,

For promised joy!

 

Still you are blest, compared with me!

The present only touches you:

But oh! I backward cast my eye,

On prospects dreary!

And forward, though I cannot see,

I guess and fear!

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

He wanted to s????

[Nattersmatter]

Just bumping this up so it doesn't get drowned. For when you're ready and able to cease dwelling on it.

 

xoxo

[Amandacast57]

Well I wanted to give an update even though I'm sure ill get the same response from everyone.

 

We were in contact again this week. He told me he was sorry for being such a mess and that he wanted to spend time together. We made plans to hang out yesterday.

 

On the way over there he sent me a text asking if I was hungry. I said yes and he said want to go get some mexican? My treat. So we want to dinner. We laughed and joked and had a great time as usual. He asked me if I wanted to come out for some drinks on Friday night for his brothers girlfriends birthday. I told him I actually had basketball tickets and asked if he would like to go. He said sure and asked if he could pick me up from my house like a date. I said yes. Then while at dinner (or late lunch - it was about 430) he said if I could think of the perfect evening, what would it be? I said I wanted to play zombies (haha, this video game we play), drink hot chocolate and watch a movie. So we did. I picked out the movie and he made us hot chocolate.

 

This morning we were in the kitchen and we started talking. He told me about a friend of his who's wife just left him after 16 years for someone else. He began telling me about his fear of things like that, about giving your all to someone and them just giving up like this girl did. He also expressed his fear of not being able to accomplish the things he wants because of a relationship. He says he sees his brother who is engaged and how he hasn't done anything with his life. He also said he felt like the path we were on it would be move in, marriage and kids much quicker than he wanted. Of course I told him I don't hold anyone back and keep them from accomplishing something they want. I'm a pusher.

 

So that was where it was left. He went to his parents for Thanksgiving and I went to mine. After we parted ways, he texted me "you're wonderful He took all his stuff with him and told me he would be completing his résumé, cover letter and LinkedIn account and wanted me to look over it.

 

And I'll see him tomorrow when he picks me up for the game. And he says we will be spending New Years together.

[Amandacast57]

He wanted to s????

 

Sorry, typing on my phone. It sent too early

[Nattersmatter]

Amanda,

 

I know it's hard when it seems everyone is down on your "relationship" but when this is happening because of patterns of events and behaviour that I and these other experienced women and men recognise all too well and where they lead, you either [a] have to trust that at least the majority of us will have your best interests in mind as well as bear in open mind that we could be right, or you have to throw caution to the wind - accepting that you're not a theorist but predominantly a pragmatist - thus find out for yourself, possibly the hard way.

 

Personally, I'm not going to get frustrated with you just because you yourself aren't yet equipped to make such a leap of, not faith because we *have* such evidences, but leap of trust, and nor am I just because you're, as I said before, independent minded (in fact, you have to admit, a bit of a control freak (putting it mildly) like Justnotsure observed) and under-unappreciative of so-called authority.

 

Thirdly, I do know that people CAN surprise you and turn themselves and the situation you share with them around.

 

Fourthly, inexperienced and control-freakish doesn't equal stupidity; you're obviously a very intelligent and insightful young woman and from what I've seen, highly analytical... *in your left hemisphere*. Your problem is only with controlling your *emotional* side, the right hemisphere; it's letting you down. So if you want to stick *with* this guy, this situation, to see for *yourself* what's what in the end - that's perfectly fine by me despite I either wouldn't recommend it or certainly wouldn't recommend the way you're specifically going about it.

 

One of the things I mean by that last statement is, the fact that he committed a relationship crime - i.e. dared to dump you without warning and too little explanation (itself wholly contradictory and hypocritical) and being able to BEAR the risk of losing you forever, which technically you do not DO NOT (because you can not CAN NOT) do if someone is precious enough to you (hence why everyone is remarking on it in particular) - yet saw no punishment and subsequent lesson hence has no deterrent against doing it again. This is how women end up in a relationship that's constantly on-off-on again-off again.... or which turns into more of an FWB, as Cali explained (which, note, *needn't* be mainly about sex, but merely for ready company on a Saturday night).

 

Let's set out the latest facts and what it could mean in terms of evidence, starting with he reminders of how [1]when you took his trousers over, he *could* resist kissing you in a way that would match love and instead kissed you on the forehead, and [2] the fact he's only *texting* you rather than phoning as a man in love will prefer to do (dislike of the phone or not):

 

1. His invitation to hang out at his came with too little notice, as did his prior impulsive attempt to change what day it would be. (Why did he need to change it? Did something/someone else come up?)

He obviously does think you're waiting at his beck and call, now. But then, as I warned you, what *else* would you now be, thanks to what the effect what he did was inevitably going to have on you. And you did accept it without enough notice. Aim, fire, bullseye!

 

2. His invitiation originally was JUST to hang at his place and by the way he phrased the idea of eating out, plus the fact it was so last-minute, it was clear that it was with HIS needs (and/or *machinations) in mind rather than for your benefit and that the two of you were still meant to end up back to his.... (as I said before) 'from sitting-room to bedroom without impediment'. Which it appears is what happened ("In the morning we..."). Aim, fire, bullseye!

 

3. He's described his brother in less than flattering terms, trying to (as the volumatic phrase goes) do him down. He's obviously competitive with him.

His brother is having a party and has invited him ...whereat his *partner* will be there.

Whether or not the invitation was put as, 'Bring a partner', the event itself suggests so.

Thanks to the uppage of ante from just hanging at his to being taken for a meal on top - you are obviously going to be agreeing to go. Aim, fire, bullseye!

 

Sadly for him, you wrong-footed him and switched it to going to the basketball game instead. What else could he do but agree? Had he not, you'd have been left realising the party itself (or specifically, being seen to have a gf) was more important than getting to be with you.

 

4. HE HAS REMOVED ALL OF HIS POSSESSIONS FROM YOUR HOME!

Major alarm bells went off when I saw this one. This is the biggie.

Knowing as I do that men deposit their stuff to act as a means to tie themselves to you/the relationship, i.e. an anchor, as well as a bridge that you cannot in the future refuse them passage over should all other requests/insistences for doing so fail (because to do so would encroach into Stealing territory), this act worries me GREATLY. After all, if you two were an item again this would actually give him MORE reason to leave those possessions be, not less. Certainly, even if the man had genuine immediate need of those particular items, one who was in it for the long haul would - particularly in a climate that had only just left precariousness - ensure to replace that bridge via the depositing of other new items.

Even if you had given him too much of a sense of security in the above respect - *no-one* is that sure of themselves that they leave the fate of your relationship in the lap of the gods like he did, with too little means of power-exertion themselves.

So why the hell has he done this?! As I say - this REALLY worries me on your behalf.

 

5. You provoked Dog In Manger syndrome in him.

Having your number like I now do, I suspect that you didn't exactly put him straight about his suspicion of another man being on the scene at that point AS WELL AS saying outright to him that there would be plenty more: "And if I decided to remain in contact with my ex, I will be honest with the fact that I am choosing to date other people.".

Furthermore, as you pointed out - he didn't JUST say what he said about how the fantasy guy must be [too much] fun [to bother pouncing on my text], he basically from the sounds of it went ballistic... displayed HUGE jealousy. And why wouldn't he? Here's him thinking that no matter how he treats you, you're earmarked exclusively for him... that despite he's not yours, YOU ARE DEFINITELY HIS.

Adding to this my suspicion of his over-competitiveness with his brother (and why wouldn't he be, anyway, considering brotherly competitiveness is pretty standard), plus the fact that he's actually ADDICTED to competitive sport, we can comfortably conclude that his main motivation for having stepped up just lately is to get to compete through you with another specific male (who's stepped onto "his" territory in a bid to steal "his" possession (you)) and possibly a whole *team*.

 

This would explain why despite he's invited you to brother & partner's party, he's removed what would act as a bridge BEYOND this get-together.

 

Picture the entire scene from his end:

 

He's all fired up towards getting one over on this fictional other man already on the scene, whose effect on you he's (he thinks) seen for himself. ("Other man", note... just like the one he'd like to strangle/humiliate for stealing his ex, but never got a chance to). So he invites you to hang out.

 

Then his brother who is likewise part-competitor in his eyes, quite possibly most out of everyone and anyone, invites him to what in his mind is a game of . He's therefore going to need you to say yes to going with him, is fairly desperate not to get a no and have to arrive at the party humiliatingly girlfriend-less. So hanging-out all of a sudden becomes because, of course, then you get to witness what to *you* is him behaving more like a wining-and-dining boyfriend who correspondingly has serious intentions again, in which case, of course you're going to say yes (or so he hoped).

And he also throws in "making love" to you for good measure. (Why didn't he want to try to do that LAST time, then, instead of merely kissing your forehead?)

 

(This makes me wonder whether he's going to wait until the 11th hour to push for the party instead, at which point you either agree or forfeit the date itself.)

 

This being wholly a ruse via surface impressions (to get what he needs from you in the immediate term) and hence NOT having the legitimate feeling/intention as normally lies behind such boyfriendly actions, he cannot go so far as to remember to come accross as wishing to leave his anchor-come-future-bridge in situ...thus he slips up by REMOVING it.

 

"Hopefully things will end up the way you want". Unfortunately, Amanda, you can't argue with such major Freudian Slips that get made at such important moments. Note how it jarred majorly with Cali, too. They are VERY weighty, even on their own. And nothing he's done since, when you subtract weights that aren't genuine and don't belong on the He Loves Me pile, has been enough to cancel this particular weight out and thereby reduce the overall weight of the He Loves Me Not pile. (Like I said - men when they lie let themselves down when it comes to keeping their eyes on ALL the details, as well as ensuring their congruency.)

 

Furthermore, if he supposedly loves you enough to take you to what is in fact a family get-together - normally a demonstration of *commitment*, why isn't he correspondingly seeing you more frequently in line with being committed? Error - Does Not Compute!

 

Had he not removed his stuff; had his invitation to hang out come with proper, respectful notice and PRE-included the offer to wine and dine you; were his invitations consistently for prime dating days/nights; had he responded to the fantasy competitor by trying to OUTDO him (re-impressing the pants off of you rather than having a go at you and emotionally blackmailing you into getting rid (especially when he had no right to)); had he been PHONING you DAILY and preferably every *evening*, rather than texting in the *morning/daytime* - and even then with texts that said I Love You or Kiss-Kiss or *anything* rather than uninspiring reports tantamountedly about how he's now going to scratch his bum - I would be saying, "Hooray - here's one of the Rare Ones who didn't even *need* a lengthy period of Zero Contact to teach him a lesson about knowing what he had before it was gone!".

 

But I'm not. The messages and actions are STILL wholly contradictory. So I still don't trust him.

 

And now to something even MORE worrying - which I would have mentioned before now if things hadn't then taken a turn to make it somewhat a moot point...

 

On 15th November, I said:

 

 

 

Suddenly, 16th November, ONLY A DAY LATER(!!), he says this (note bold):

 

 

 

Questions:

 

- Did you recite my speech, even if only in terms of its overriding sentiment about how unfair it is to keep you waiting and what that says about the low calibre of a man, including how revealing it is of his holding a morally reprehensible agenda?

 

- If not - do you not agree the timing and similarity of this sudden turn-around in attitude is stunningly coincidental???

 

OBVIOUSLY it's not a genuine attitude-change because the very sentance in which it was delivered posed a huge contradiction. Ergo, it was said BY ROTE, a concerted NOT HEARTFELT AND NATURAL effort.

 

- Bearing in mind that you've incorporated your first name into your boardname as well as included an actual photo of your face (the timing of which likewise coincides) - can you access this forum via your mobile phone or do you own any other device as allows this and is it at all POSSIBLE that at any time since you began posting on this forum he could have gained access to to your device, thereafter having managed to locate you and this thread relatively easily?

 

Edit - because I've just remembered you said this: "Sorry, typing on my phone. It sent too early "

 

So, yes, you DO use your phone to access and post.

 

Did you leave your phone alone in his presence even once?

 

- If not, did you even just mention this forum or merely say something like, 'And some people on this forum I visit reckon that... [etc]'? Could he then have found you via a Google search?

 

RSvP.

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

PS:

And he says we will be spending New Years together.

 

Oh? So why not Thanksgiving or Christmas? Could it be because they would be here that much sooner and that despite he doesn't mind appearing to be committed for the sake of scoring a point against his brother, where that need *isn't* present neither is his invitation to you?

 

xoxo

[Amandacast57]

Your posts are always very informative and insightful. I do need to be more clear about a few things, because I think you read some things differently than they were intended to read.

 

Amanda,

 

I know it's hard when it seems everyone is down on your "relationship" but when this is happening because of patterns of events and behaviour that I and these other experienced women and men recognise all too well and where they lead, you either [a] have to trust that at least the majority of us will have your best interests in mind as well as bear in open mind that we could be right, or you have to throw caution to the wind - accepting that you're not a theorist but predominantly a pragmatist - thus find out for yourself, possibly the hard way.

 

I understand this. And this is something I think about on a daily basis. Sometimes I think "people on this forum have seen thread after thread about people that display these behaviors". I have even experienced them myself. I dated one guy who broke up with me but we basically remained FWB. Every time I "thought" he was coming around and wanting to work things out, he would go sleep with someone else. When we were in public, he was not affectionate towards me, only in the bedroom. Looking back, his breadcrumbs were really pathetic but I was too insecure and immature to really realize it. My ex before this current one would agree to lunch or dinner with me. But he would never want to go anywhere where people would see us. We always went to a sushi restaurant where a bunch of people he knows works. Anytime I suggested that he would quickly turn it down with some pathetic excuse. I knew it was because he didn't want people to know he was hanging out with me.

 

That is what makes it hard. My ex doesn't do the things that my previous exes had done. My anxiety is created because I've experienced the "don't want anyone to see us together" or "I'll be nice to you to get sex but forget any affection in public". I'll elaborate more on this as I continue to respond.

 

Personally, I'm not going to get frustrated with you just because you yourself aren't yet equipped to make such a leap of, not faith because we *have* such evidences, but leap of trust, and nor am I just because you're, as I said before, independent minded (in fact, you have to admit, a bit of a control freak (putting it mildly) like Justnotsure observed) and under-unappreciative of so-called authority.

 

You are right, I am not equipped to make a leap of faith, to say "Hey, you broke up with me, I won't go back on that". Why? I'm not sure. It is not like I feel like I can't survive without him. I was fine before him and I would certainly be fine without him. I guess it is more of me feeling like I somewhat caused this, by constantly talking about commitment only after 5 months and seeing how things get better between us when "future talk" is taken off the table and we actually interact/date/spend time together the way we should have in the first place.

 

Thirdly, I do know that people CAN surprise you and turn themselves and the situation you share with them around.

 

It CAN happen. I'm sure it doesn't happen THAT much.

 

One of the things I mean by that last statement is, the fact that he committed a relationship crime - i.e. dared to dump you without warning and too little explanation (itself wholly contradictory and hypocritical) and being able to BEAR the risk of losing you forever, which technically you do not DO NOT (because you can not CAN NOT) do if someone is precious enough to you (hence why everyone is remarking on it in particular) - yet saw no punishment and subsequent lesson hence has no deterrent against doing it again. This is how women end up in a relationship that's constantly on-off-on again-off again.... or which turns into more of an FWB, as Cali explained (which, note, *needn't* be mainly about sex, but merely for ready company on a Saturday night).

 

This is something I definitely take into consideration. He DID break up with me. In my eyes (and I've told him this), he gave up on us. Could he do it again? Sure. And yes, his actions are contradictory.

 

Let's set out the latest facts and what it could mean in terms of evidence, starting with he reminders of how [1]when you took his trousers over, he *could* resist kissing you in a way that would match love and instead kissed you on the forehead, and [2] the fact he's only *texting* you rather than phoning as a man in love will prefer to do (dislike of the phone or not)

 

I can't say anything about him not calling me. I HATE talking on the phone and I made that pretty clear.

 

1. His invitation to hang out at his came with too little notice, as did his prior impulsive attempt to change what day it would be. (Why did he need to change it? Did something/someone else come up?)

He obviously does think you're waiting at his beck and call, now. But then, as I warned you, what *else* would you now be, thanks to what the effect what he did was inevitably going to have on you. And you did accept it without enough notice. Aim, fire, bullseye!

 

What do you mean by "his invitation to hang out at his come with too little notice, as did his prior impulsive attempt to change what day it would be? Are you talking about that Monday night when he asked if I wanted to hang out and then said that he would like to hang out a different day since it would be too late?

 

2. His invitiation originally was JUST to hang at his place and by the way he phrased the idea of eating out, plus the fact it was so last-minute, it was clear that it was with HIS needs (and/or *machinations) in mind rather than for your benefit and that the two of you were still meant to end up back to his.... (as I said before) 'from sitting-room to bedroom without impediment'. Which it appears is what happened ("In the morning we..."). Aim, fire, bullseye!

 

When we made plans on Monday to hang out Wednesday, we didn't make any set plans of what we would be doing. I was not sure what time I would be off work. I ended up getting off early around 2:30pm. Maybe I'm wrong for taking it as a nice gesture that he wanted to go out and get dinner (and on top of that, him pay), when we could have just stayed home and made something that was left over in the fridge or some easy mac and cheese. And referring back to my earliest post of affection in public...He was the one that reached for my hand to walk in the restaurant. He was the one who stopped to open the door for me. He was the one, that when we left, put his arm around me, led me to my car and opened the door for me. Haha, it is SO hard to ignore those things.

 

3. He's described his brother in less than flattering terms, trying to (as the volumatic phrase goes) do him down. He's obviously competitive with him.

His brother is having a party and has invited him ...whereat his *partner* will be there.

Whether or not the invitation was put as, 'Bring a partner', the event itself suggests so.

Thanks to the uppage of ante from just hanging at his to being taken for a meal on top - you are obviously going to be agreeing to go. Aim, fire, bullseye!

 

I can't really say much to this. I honestly don't think he is competitive with his brother. This is his much younger brother, 22 years old.

 

But I don't know when the plans were made (I would assume a bit ago since it is his girlfriends 21st birthday). I just thought it was nice that he would want me around his family. Again, in my previous situations, none of these guys dared to let their family or friends know that they were still seeing me.

 

Sadly for him, you wrong-footed him and switched it to going to the basketball game instead. What else could he do but agree? Had he not, you'd have been left realising the party itself (or specifically, being seen to have a gf) was more important than getting to be with you.

 

We are going to the basketball game and then meeting everyone afterwards. I have 4 tickets so he is asking his brother and girlfriend if they would like to go with us.

 

4. HE HAS REMOVED ALL OF HIS POSSESSIONS FROM YOUR HOME!

Major alarm bells went off when I saw this one. This is the biggie.

Knowing as I do that men deposit their stuff to act as a means to tie themselves to you/the relationship, i.e. an anchor, as well as a bridge that you cannot in the future refuse them passage over should all other requests/insistences for doing so fail (because to do so would encroach into Stealing territory), this act worries me GREATLY. After all, if you two were an item again this would actually give him MORE reason to leave those possessions be, not less. Certainly, even if the man had genuine immediate need of those particular items, one who was in it for the long haul would - particularly in a climate that had only just left precariousness - ensure to replace that bridge via the depositing of other new items.

Even if you had given him too much of a sense of security in the above respect - *no-one* is that sure of themselves that they leave the fate of your relationship in the lap of the gods like he did, with too little means of power-exertion themselves.

So why the hell has he done this?! As I say - this REALLY worries me on your behalf.

 

I have to be more clear about this. It wasn't my house he removed all his possessions from. When I said he gathered his things, I meant he was staying at his parents house last night. So Wednesday night, I stayed at his place, he packed his bags, school stuff, computer, etc. and left me at his house to stay and get ready before I left to go meet my family.

 

I was expecting him to clear out the things of mine (which would be a clear indication to me that he was having someone over), but my toothbrush is still hanging up with his and he has hung my razor up by the mirror.

 

And he mentioned staying at my house tonight after we go to the basketball game and meet his brother out. This is a little weird to me since he never really came over to my house when we were dating.

 

5. You provoked Dog In Manger syndrome in him.

Having your number like I now do, I suspect that you didn't exactly put him straight about his suspicion of another man being on the scene at that point AS WELL AS saying outright to him that there would be plenty more: "And if I decided to remain in contact with my ex, I will be honest with the fact that I am choosing to date other people.".

 

I wouldn't say I set him straight about his suspicion of another man. I didn't really acknowledge his jealousy other than saying that I didn't just open my legs for any random guy. But I did tell him yesterday that people had expressed interest in taking me out and he didn't really care much for a guy sending me a message on Facebook when we were together Wednesday night saying "I know this is kind of weird, but you are absolutely beautiful. I had to say something".

 

Furthermore, as you pointed out - he didn't JUST say what he said about how the fantasy guy must be [too much] fun [to bother pouncing on my text], he basically from the sounds of it went ballistic... displayed HUGE jealousy. And why wouldn't he? Here's him thinking that no matter how he treats you, you're earmarked exclusively for him... that despite he's not yours, YOU ARE DEFINITELY HIS.

Adding to this my suspicion of his over-competitiveness with his brother (and why wouldn't he be, anyway, considering brotherly competitiveness is pretty standard), plus the fact that he's actually ADDICTED to competitive sport, we can comfortably conclude that his main motivation for having stepped up just lately is to get to compete through you with another specific male (who's stepped onto "his" territory in a bid to steal "his" possession (you)) and possibly a whole *team*.

 

And I can't take his actions as completely genuine because it could very well be that he got a small taste of what it would feel like for another guy to be interested in me and me having no obligation to him and being able to explore this new guy. But I hope more, that it was a bit of a wake up call that "oh crap. i need to get myself together or some other guy could be enjoying this wonderful woman".

 

(This makes me wonder whether he's going to wait until the 11th hour to push for the party instead, at which point you either agree or forfeit the date itself.)

 

See above. We are going to the basketball game then meeting them afterwards.

 

Furthermore, if he supposedly loves you enough to take you to what is in fact a family get-together - normally a demonstration of *commitment*, why isn't he correspondingly seeing you more frequently in line with being committed? Error - Does Not Compute!

 

This will have to be something I will have to answer when exams are over for him. I COMPLETELY understand the feeling of stress when it comes to school and wanting to get your moneys worth for the amount he has paid to be in school at 31. Shouldn't it mean something that on Thanksgiving break, we are seeing each other twice? He said yesterday when we were talking for me to be patient until the end of December, when exams were over and he has moved into his new apartment.

 

Had he not removed his stuff; had his invitation to hang out come with proper, respectful notice and PRE-included the offer to wine and dine you; were his invitations consistently for prime dating days/nights; had he responded to the fantasy competitor by trying to OUTDO him (re-impressing the pants off of you rather than having a go at you and emotionally blackmailing you into getting rid (especially when he had no right to)); had he been PHONING you DAILY and preferably every *evening*, rather than texting in the *morning/daytime* - and even then with texts that said I Love You or Kiss-Kiss or *anything* rather than uninspiring reports tantamountedly about how he's now going to scratch his bum - I would be saying, "Hooray - here's one of the Rare Ones who didn't even *need* a lengthy period of Zero Contact to teach him a lesson about knowing what he had before it was gone!".

 

But I'm not. The messages and actions are STILL wholly contradictory. So I still don't trust him.

 

Hopefully I did clear some of this up, with the fact that it wasn't my house he removed his stuff from, we made plans on Monday to hang out Wednesday (I literally spent all day Monday, Tuesday and most of Wednesday waiting for a call that he was going to cancel plans) and that I don't like to talk on the phone.

 

My issue is, based on how things have gotten much better since I backed off, I can't help but really feel like this is a matter of him feeling scared. I mean, he even admitted to me yesterday that he did feel scared. He has seen so many couples around him end in divorce and hurt.

 

Mhowe had given me the advice that he was scared with all the talks of commitment and that it was best to take a step back and "date".

 

Do you know why I don't think he starts picking up the phone and saying "I love you" and going back in to a full out relationship? Because I don't think he has the trust in me yet that I won't start pushing living together, engagement, marriage, kids the second he fully lets me back in. My words of "You can do what you want" or "I'll always support you" don't mean much to him until he fully feels confident that I 100% mean them.

 

Since we broke up, we went from not speaking for 4 days, to texting every day, to seeing each other once a week, to now seeing each other twice, to him saying he wants to spend New Years with me, to him inviting me to come out and hang out with his brother.

 

He told me I could come Black Friday shopping with his middle brother and mom. I made a joke and said "I'm sure you don't want your mom to know we are hanging out" and he said "why not?".

 

Questions:

 

- Did you recite my speech, even if only in terms of its overriding sentiment about how unfair it is to keep you waiting and what that says about the low calibre of a man, including how revealing it is of his holding a morally reprehensible agenda?

 

- If not - do you not agree the timing and similarity of this sudden turn-around in attitude is stunningly coincidental???

 

- Bearing in mind that you've incorporated your first name into your boardname as well as included an actual photo of your face (the timing of which likewise coincides) - can you access this forum via your mobile phone or do you own any other device as allows this and is it at all POSSIBLE that at any time since you began posting on this forum he could have gained access to to your device, thereafter having managed to locate you and this thread relatively easily? Did you leave your device alone in his presence even once?

 

- If not, did you even just mention this forum or merely say something like, 'And some people on this forum I visit reckon that... [etc]'? Could he then have found you via a Google search?

 

Can you explain this further? What do you mean about him finding me on here? What would that have to do with anything?

 

And Im 99.9999999% sure that isn't the case. I've never mentioned this forum to him. And my mobile phone requires a password to get in. He doesn't know it.

[Amandacast57]

PS:

 

Oh? So why not Thanksgiving or Christmas? Could it be because they would be here that much sooner and that despite he doesn't mind appearing to be committed for the sake of scoring a point against his brother, where that need *isn't* present neither is his invitation to you?

 

xoxo

 

Well there are two reasons for Thanksgiving. My family did our Thanksgiving the same time his family did theirs. Another is, I don't feel comfortable going to his family's house for Thanksgiving we aren't "together". I don't think it is appropriate. But before he left, he told me to say hello to my mom and wish everyone a happy Thanksgiving.

 

I had specifically brought up New Years because it would be my first New Years I didn't have to work. I didn't say anything about Christmas yet, but I will. I just don't want to seem pushy or smothering.

[Amandacast57]

I also left the other two tickets up to him to choose who came. He asked his mom and dad to come with us but they didnt feel comfortable leaving his grandfather at home by himself.

[Nattersmatter]

I also left the other two tickets up to him to choose who came. He [sAID HE] asked his mom and dad to come with us but they didnt feel comfortable leaving his grandfather at home by himself.

 

This is not evidence, it's hearsay (his).

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

Your posts are always very informative and insightful. I do need to be more clear about a few things, because I think you read some things differently than they were intended to read.

 

You not only need to be clearer about a few things, you need to cease completely ignoring certain questions in favour of those you do wish to answer (as now reiterated or re-presented below); then you would find my insight even more impressive (ps: mleugh). I'm like a calculator (where 'rubbish' means incorrect or missing numbers): rubbish in = rubbish total out, correct value in = correct total out. Whether you do this because you're not concentrating properly or because your phone screen is too small, it needs to stop so that that doesn't keep taking more time for either of us than need be, okay? Thanks.

 

Me: I know it's hard when it seems everyone is down on your "relationship" but when this is happening because of patterns of events and behaviour that I and these other experienced women and men recognise all too well and where they lead, you either [a] have to trust that at least the majority of us will have your best interests in mind as well as bear in open mind that we could be right, or you have to throw caution to the wind - accepting that you're not a theorist but predominantly a pragmatist - thus find out for yourself, possibly the hard way.

 

You: I understand this. And this is something I think about on a daily basis. Sometimes I think "people on this forum have seen thread after thread about people that display these behaviors". I have even experienced them myself. I dated one guy who broke up with me but we basically remained FWB. Every time I "thought" he was coming around and wanting to work things out, he would go sleep with someone else. When we were in public, he was not affectionate towards me, only in the bedroom. Looking back, his breadcrumbs were really pathetic but I was too insecure and immature to really realize it. My ex before this current one would agree to lunch or dinner with me. But he would never want to go anywhere where people would see us. We always went to a sushi restaurant where a bunch of people he knows works. Anytime I suggested that he would quickly turn it down with some pathetic excuse. I knew it was because he didn't want people to know he was hanging out with me.

 

That is what makes it hard. My ex doesn't do the things that my previous exes had done. My anxiety is created because I've experienced the "don't want anyone to see us together" or "I'll be nice to you to get sex but forget any affection in public". I'll elaborate more on this as I continue to respond.

 

At the point where Footie Boy terminated the relationship, you had zero action comparisons (which is why you described it as having been completely out of the Blue). But you DID have him daring to terminate the relationship - a massively volumatic action to trump all smaller actions - and one which we all agree is above all else COMPLETELY incongruent with a man who sees you even as POTENTIAL long-term girlfriend material regardless of where it may or not may not actually lead. Even if this action didn't match your past practical experience, its heavy meaning is intuit.

 

That being the case, your failure to respond in the correct way - which would be taking his speech at face value, behaving according to a woman who's been ditched and thereby making him have to bear the consequences - cannot be excused by lack of experience.

 

Clearly, as I implied in my last mail, your problem is not one of failing to work out the meaning of words and actions in a rational sense. Nor, from what we've seen, is it insight (instinctual recognition). So that leaves only, you being too hell-bent on getting what you want regardless of whether the other person consciously feels they want it or not. Fine if that's the case based on your intuition telling you he doth protesteth too much, but at least be willing to admit it. Otherwise, how on earth can your aim be true if before you shoot your arrow at the bullseye you don't even know in which direction you yourself are orientated thus aiming from?

 

You are right, I am not equipped to make a leap of faith, to say "Hey, you broke up with me, I won't go back on that". Why? I'm not sure. It is not like I feel like I can't survive without him. I was fine before him and I would certainly be fine without him. I guess it is more of me feeling like I somewhat caused this, by constantly talking about commitment only after 5 months and seeing how things get better between us when "future talk" is taken off the table and we actually interact/date/spend time together the way we should have in the first place.

 

Well, of course you're 50% to blame - that's relationship law and is called Co-Creation. But that doesn't mean you have to be punished by being messed around, left in the dark, and manipulated any more than it gives him any right to. His right is only to take it or walk away OR to address the problem like a grown-up in an endeavour to avoid either.

 

HOWEVER, underneath this co-creation will, as I said before, be the fault root - called INTENTION. Frankly, if his intention for this or any relationship had ever matched your own, you talking about the future would *not* have produced the total negative over-reaction it did. PLENTY of men simply say, 'I'd *love* to believe we were headed for marriage and kids but it's a bit soon to be talking about it, don't you think? Can we just keep sucking and seeing rather than putting the cart before the horse, please?' It's the immature types who think it's better to prat around instead, be that in the form of whipping the floor away followed by reinstating only certain bits of it or by doing it minimally/more subtly in the form of withdrawing without corresponding communication to signify they're displeased/discombobulated/whatever.

 

So in summary, no, you're *not* to blame in the final analysis. Because his INTENTION was wrong according to what one would *expect* going by his age and stage and ones own age and stage of expected thus anticipatable readiness (i.e. if he's not ready for serious biz he should be dating teenagers). Plus, put it this way: how could you possibly have KEPT pressuring for cohabitation/marriage had he, the very *first* time you'd ever uttered anything of this commitment-based nature, communicated clearly that despite he was headed in that general direction he simply wasn't there YET where 'there' means discussing plans is required?

 

See?

 

But, then, control-freaks always DO blame themselves because obviously if they're to blame then the onus falls onto them to fix things. Furthermore, why would you want to expend all this effort on someone whom you feel you could quite easily live without? Didn't anyone tell you that true love means despite you *could* if you really had to, you wouldn't-couldn't ever WANT to which still amounts to Being Incapable?? Tsk... course they did (and Gotcha!).

 

So, Nice try, missus, but not nice enough. ;-)

 

I therefore am concluding that this is exclusively about you wanting to win the battle for its own end. Berbom.

 

Would this, do you feel, make up for those too-numerous past episodes where you did end up out-foxed with serious egg on your face?

 

Again - fine if that's your choice and you want to put that theoretical assumption to the acid test. After all, no-one here could logically accuse you of being a control freak only to then turn around and tell you what you should or shouldn't be endeavouring, or [ahem!] keep empty-threatening to be done with this thread whenever you fail to play orthodox ball, could they. [Horror trailer voice "Sheee knowwwzz! who! she! IZZZ-ah!" [LOL - Gotta catch me foist. ;-)]

 

So can we just cut the crap and admit you're as half-hairy monster as the rest of us are or ever have been in the past? I think you'll find things will be a darn sight easier if you do. And for those who can't stomach the idea, look at it this way: this is STILL - despite further back in the Red spectrum of the curriculum - our ultimately helping shunt you closer towards a successful relationship, whomever that may be: with ego equalised, it'll be out of your system forever, meaning, with the NEXT chap (remotely-possibly this one, even) you can keep your own agenda totally pure in terms of complication-free desires. Further, for those who think getting back into a relationship primarily just to out-fox someone to rebalance the *past* books is a sh*tty thing to do: no, it's not... because it'll teach him a lesson about judgement that can do nothing but ultimately speed *him* to faster eventual success, too.

 

Lastly but not leastly - you don't ever see a mother lioness criticising her cubs when play-fighting together, about the fact they're not biting sufficiently to actually *kill*, i.e. not headed for the legitimate terminus, do you? If this is a practise relationship for honing future adult skills then it's a practise relationship and that's that and that's fine, too.

 

So it's all good... and welcome to the usual Games.

 

 

Now back to knowing not just what you are and where you're aiming from and for but also where exactly the targetboard is situated and what it looks like...

 

I can't say anything about him not calling me. I HATE talking on the phone and I made that pretty clear.

 

Leaving aside the fact that when men are REALLY fired up about bagging you they tend to - "whoops, sorry, heh-heh" - "forget" time and time again that you don't like live calls - WHY don't you?

 

 

What do you mean by "his invitation to hang out at his come with too little notice, as did his prior impulsive attempt to change what day it would be? Are you talking about that Monday night when he asked if I wanted to hang out and then said that he would like to hang out a different day since it would be too late?

 

Scratch that, I now see you were talking about this other guy who wanted to see you sooner. Saying that, however, where still concerns Footie Boy: you hadn't heard from him at all on the Saturday 17th Nov (*Saturday=Prime Dating Day*, note!!). And then yesterday, 23rd Nov, you say the pair of you were in contact this week, although you don't specify which day. Clearly it wasn't yesterday itself, though. So even assuming it was the day before - the 22nd - that still leaves possibly only the 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st or 22nd, five days. Which day was his invitation? Regardless of your answer - and this being the upshot: normally a guy who purports to love you/still love you (as justification for still wanting to see you despite he broke it off) books you for the next date WHILST *ON* THE PREVIOUS DATE. This he is not doing, added to not having even got in touch WHATSOEVER during the whole of Prime Date Day & Night. (WHY not?!)

 

When we made plans on Monday to hang out Wednesday,

 

Ah - wait - here it is!! (Sorry - I don't tend to read ahead lest it blocks gut instincts.) So there you go - in addition to not pre-booking the next date at the end of a current date, YOU GOT ONLY TWO PIDDLY DAYS' NOTICE. This again isn't congruous with love/still love nor at-least-having-the-INTENTION of commitment no matter how far off down the line. It's congruous of a casual dater only. And you may well say he's shunted you both back to more casual but the emphasis there is on *more*. Nobody who truly loves you wants to be casual in the first place. I don't care WHAT these so-called relationship gurus (in whose fiscal interests it is to) say. When there are far simpler, far lower-risk remedies than chucking you available for not allowing you to continue getting ahead of yourself, that's what a person with genuine intentions who genuinely loves you will opt for. *Fact*.

 

So let's do a quick sub-re-cap where concerns behaviour, since and including the 'break-up', indicating zero or too little "honourable intentions":

 

- He could bear the thought that he was risking losing you forever;

- He manages to do as you ask and without arguing/pushing aka He manages go against his pushy, masculine urge to phone (through needing to hear your voice);

- He's not seeing you very frequently at all;

- He's more notably not seeing you on Prime Date Day/Night;

- When he does see you, it's with too little notice.

 

(I'll add to this as I go and then do a total at the end.)

 

 

we didn't make any set plans of what we would be doing.

 

- He is not making specific plans over what the date will consist of.

 

I was not sure what time I would be off work.

 

So what. Most modern-day restaurants, bars and leisure facilities are open all day. Plus there's such a thing called Back-up Plan B or Back-up Plan C (as many as you like). Face it - his plan WAS that you'd "hang out" (at his) (sitting-room-->bedroom). The idea for eating out was clearly CAUSED by something - which I still maintain (keep reading) was his brother's invitation. This fits when you consider men are renowned for not giving much notice because men naturally are more spontaneous (despite they become willing to dance to the feminine preference for notice when they love and respect her).

 

I ended up getting off early around 2:30pm. Maybe I'm wrong for taking it as a nice gesture that he wanted to go out and get dinner (and on top of that, him pay), when we could have just stayed home and made something that was left over in the fridge or some easy mac and cheese.

 

I (keep reading) think you are, yes. I still believe he knew that buttering-up was in order and mac-cheese wouldn't cut it.

 

And referring back to my earliest post of affection in public...He was the one that reached for my hand to walk in the restaurant. He was the one who stopped to open the door for me. He was the one, that when we left, put his arm around me, led me to my car and opened the door for me. Haha, it is SO hard to ignore those things.

 

Shame it's not hard to ignore the intention BEHIND actions, eh. Again - when you need to butter up, you'll do what it takes.

 

I can't really say much to this. I honestly don't think he is competitive with his brother. This is his much younger brother, 22 years old.

 

Er... that would (age of 19) make his brother *older*, then. And how would YOU know he's not competitive with his brother?... especially when as I already stated, brotherly competitiveness is exceedingly common.

 

Hell - look at the evidence in reality application: his SUPPOSEDLY YOUNGER brother is *engaged*! Whereas Footie Boy can't even handle TALKING about it (so he claims)! I rest my case. His brother is older than him and yes they are competitive.

 

But I don't know when the plans were made (I would assume a bit ago since it is his girlfriends 21st birthday).

 

As above (men especially with other men = spontaneous aka last-minute).

 

I just thought it was nice that he would want me around his family. Again, in my previous situations, none of these guys dared to let their family or friends know that they were still seeing me.

 

As above and above that.

 

We are going to the basketball game and then meeting everyone afterwards. I have 4 tickets so he is asking his brother and girlfriend if they would like to go with us.

 

Firstly, if this was already a fixed plan of yours, how come you had FOUR tickets?

 

Secondly, what with the whole point being COMPETITION, the fact that he's still going to be seen to measure up to his brother's status would make the party itself immaterial. Hence, now, the buttering-up - including "making love" to you - becomes an exercise in preventing you from cancelling.

 

I have to be more clear about this. It wasn't my house he removed all his possessions from. When I said he gathered his things, I meant he was staying at his parents house last night. So Wednesday night, I stayed at his place, he packed his bags, school stuff, computer, etc. and left me at his house to stay and get ready before I left to go meet my family.

I was expecting him to clear out the things of mine (which would be a clear indication to me that he was having someone over), but my toothbrush is still hanging up with his and he has hung my razor up by the mirror.

And he mentioned staying at my house tonight after we go to the basketball game and meet his brother out. This is a little weird to me since he never really came over to my house when we were dating.

 

Okay - my mistake. HOWEVER...One toothbrush and razor in-situ does not attitude of commitment or less-than-casual-ness make. Not when it equally gels with FWB-based convenience (the less palatable form of long-haul). Not LEAST when, again, you remember these episodes are all on WEEKDAYS rather than primary dating days. You're STILL not being given priority over other "things" or other woman/women. And that goes towards my seeing clearly, still, that this is not 'trying again', it's trying as FWBs merely PRESENTED TO YOU LYINGLY as trying again.

 

I wouldn't say I set him straight about his suspicion of another man. I didn't really acknowledge his jealousy other than saying that I didn't just open my legs for any random guy. But I did tell him yesterday that people had expressed interest in taking me out and he didn't really care much for a guy sending me a message on Facebook when we were together Wednesday night saying "I know this is kind of weird, but you are absolutely beautiful. I had to say something".

 

Well, there - ref Dog In Manger syndrome - you go then.

 

And I can't take his actions as completely genuine because it could very well be that he got a small taste of what it would feel like for another guy to be interested in me and me having no obligation to him and being able to explore this new guy. But I hope more, that it was a bit of a wake up call that "oh crap. i need to get myself together or some other guy could be enjoying this wonderful woman".

 

It having been a wake-up call would see him seeing you on prime dating days, etc., (as above sub-recap). You're not thinking straight, Amanda, clearly you're not... Because if HE isn't seeing you on the Saturday or Saturday night, that leaves you free to see some other man. Wake-up call is this: "OMG, what have I *done*?! I love this woman to pieces. There is no way I can bear the thought and risk of losing her a second time. This time I'll make SURE no other man can lure her away!... because I'll BE there during all such most opportune times myself!"

 

Okay?

 

Now to New Years but not Thanksgiving nor Christmas:

 

This will have to be something I will have to answer when exams are over for him. I COMPLETELY understand the feeling of stress when it comes to school and wanting to get your moneys worth for the amount he has paid to be in school at 31. Shouldn't it mean something that on Thanksgiving break, we are seeing each other twice? He said yesterday when we were talking for me to be patient until the end of December, when exams were over and he has moved into his new apartment.

 

Again, you're not thinking comprehensively enough. How is it less stressful to be surrounded on these prime Loved-Ones Days by his however-many relatives but not you???

 

Thanksgiving BREAK is not the same as Thanksgiving.

 

Bet you any money you like that come end December, he'll introduce some NEW excuse, not to do all the motions of a man who loves you irrespective of being unready to talk about eventual commitment.

 

- Is not wanting you there on key special celebrations (save for when wanting to compete with brother).

 

Hopefully I did clear some of this up, with the fact that it wasn't my house he removed his stuff from, we made plans on Monday to hang out Wednesday (I literally spent all day Monday, Tuesday and most of Wednesday waiting for a call that he was going to cancel plans) and that I don't like to talk on the phone.

 

As you can now tell - any misinterpretations made not a jot of difference because the actual cases still do more to support the Loves Me Not.

 

My issue is, based on how things have gotten much better since I backed off, I can't help but really feel like this is a matter of him feeling scared. I mean, he even admitted to me yesterday that he did feel scared. He has seen so many couples around him end in divorce and hurt.

 

If I had a Pound for every man I've known or known of who's played up to the Mummy-based Achilles by humouring this 'poor wickle baby, he just SCARED' myth, only to then turn around and cohabit or marry someone else....?! Put it this way - I'd have my own desert island by now and wouldn't be here posting with you!

 

Mhowe had given me the advice that he was scared with all the talks of commitment and that it was best to take a step back and "date".

 

I'm not saying he DEFINITELY ISN'T scared (as in, put off by). But when being scared isn't the ONLY condition to cause all such symptoms as we have here, and, in fact, is the RARER cause - it makes the symptoms wholly unreliable when in isolation. We have too many other symptoms which pull all such Scared symptoms into the FWB zone.

 

Do you know why I don't think he starts picking up the phone and saying "I love you" and going back in to a full out relationship? Because I don't think he has the trust in me yet that I won't start pushing living together, engagement, marriage, kids the second he fully lets me back in. My words of "You can do what you want" or "I'll always support you" don't mean much to him until he fully feels confident that I 100% mean them.

 

Refer to above 'simpler, less risky remedy' and the fact that Mr Allegedly Had A Wake-up Call STILL not dating you frequently, regularly, let alone consistently, on Prime Dating Days.

 

Since we broke up, we went from not speaking for 4 days, to texting every day, to seeing each other once a week, to now seeing each other twice, to him saying he wants to spend New Years with me, to him inviting me to come out and hang out with his brother.

 

- Is making dates for a key celebration that is too far into the future when proof of honourable intention in this broken trust environment is needed NOW.

 

He told me I could come Black Friday shopping with his middle brother and mom. I made a joke and said "I'm sure you don't want your mom to know we are hanging out" and he said "why not?".

 

A woman who accompanies your son on a shopping trip but *doesn't* get invited to *two* IMMINENT key celebration days, does not Steady, Exclusive Girlfriend make. Plus, is/was the trip scheduled for PRIOR to brother's fiancee's birthday celebration? If before - how do you know the invitation isn't just to make his measuring up to brother that more believeable?

 

Anyway - IS this shopping outing firmly booked up?

 

Can you explain this further? What do you mean about him finding me on here? What would that have to do with anything?

 

And Im 99.9999999% sure that isn't the case. I've never mentioned this forum to him. And my mobile phone requires a password to get in. He doesn't know it.

 

I MEAN (hello??) that he could have seen me 'telling' you what a genuinely honourable, good-intentioned man *does* say as opposed to what he *hadn't* and suddenly tried to emulate it (despite he actually failed to do it convincingly thanks to the glaring contradiction in his very next breath).

 

Here's a question you failed to address: What if he needs neither mobile or password to track you to onto here? Furthermore - where is the .1% uncertainty coming from? IS it possible he could have spotted the forum name displayed on your phone or simply overheard you make mention of it?

 

More failures to address:

Did you or did you not in whatever fashion quote the definitive statement re what an honourable male will say to set you free as opposed to not?

Do you not agree the timing and similarity of this sudden turn-around in attitude is stunningly coincidental???

 

 

 

Listen: No-one would be pleased more than me if I could go back to my original conclusion that he just spooked himself. But if that IS still the case then you need to realise: he is not yet DE-spooked. Again, sadly, I don't think so because the Loves Me Not side of the scale is still bottommost.

 

Here it is (although not in its entirity at the moment; I'll go back through the thread later on and collect up any I've omitted). Feel free to list all the unquestionably positive symptoms on the Loves Me side. Suggest you do them in Green (assuming they pass scrutinisations muster) and you and I keep adding to them as we go. Then, whether you do want to out-fox him for its own sake or with a view to getting the ego blot forever off your ego landscape, this list will help majorly. Because then we'll literally SEE, won't we.

 

- He could bear the thought that he was risking losing you forever;

- He manages to do as you ask and without arguing/pushing aka He manages go against his pushy, masculine urge to phone (through needing to hear your voice);

- Despite his claim he wasn't dumping you because he *didn't* love you, he somehow managed to resist kissing you (save for on the forehead);

- When he texts, it tends to be morning or daytime;

- The messages themselves lack words and sentiments that demonstrate love;

- Prior to his confession of "being scared", these text exchanges were left hanging incomplete on his side (following you having demonstrated you weren't at risk of being 'stolen');

- Him seeming to to grow keener came suddenly and solely on the heels of him thinking another man was encroaching onto 'his' territory (he shouldn't need the threat of competition to make him seemingly re-keen);

- His contradiction of

- His Freudian Slip: "Hopefully things will end up the way you want".

- He's still not seeing you very frequently at all;

- He's more notably not seeing you on Prime Date Day/Night despite this, you'd think, still leaves you open to being 'stolen';

- When he does see you, it's with too little notice.

- He is not making specific plans over what the date will consist of.

- He's not wanting you there on up-coming key special celebrations - save for when wanting to compete with brother or, now, possibly, to increase the fun of a "boring" shopping trip with the womenfolk.

 

(Unfortunately as established, New Years Eve (and his promise regarding end of December) doesn't count because it's a case of "Ta-marr-a, Ta-marr-a, I luv ya, ta-marra-a, you're ALWAYS A DAY AWAAAAY".)

 

Everyone else please feel free to contribute your own what-you-suspect-is Loves Her or Loves Her Not suggestions. If you all likewise colour them Green (for Go or Inarguable Improvement) or Red (for Stop/Walk Away or Change Your Outfoxing Tactics Accordingly), it'll be easy to spot and incorporate them into the lists.

 

Does this sound like a good idea to you, Amanda?

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

(Ugh - stuffed up formatting - wait up, I'll fix it...)

[Nattersmatter]

Whilst it's all quiet on the Western Front, I'll add to and edit the list of negatives:

 

- He could bear the thought that he was risking losing you forever;

- The night before he 'broke up' with you he lied about the football match he was refereeing (it had got cancelled). His subsequent confession (which I doubt was self-initiated but correct me if I'm wrong?) actually was no such thing because he implied he'd met up with the lads *after the match* plus failed to say a thing about the actual match cancellation. Also he in fact lied TWICE about it because he'd later that same day texted that his team hadn't won.

- When you met up with him at his house for the first time following the 'break-up', he managed to discourage any badly-warranted discussion about the issues concerning why whereas a man wanting reconciliation would adhere to the vital need to do so;

- His response when you'd told him he could get his criminal record expunged was not that of a man who wants to better himself and his life as he'd claimed, and does *not* support - not one iota - one of his main justifications for having 'broken up' with you;

- Despite his claim he hadn't dumped you because he *didn't* love you, he somehow managed to resist kissing you (save for on the forehead) after not having seen you for over a week. What amazing 'self-control' (if self-control was what it was, of course);

- (Same evening) During what perfunctory debriefing there was, rather than apologising, he blamed you totally for his action of breaking it off by saying you'd pushed for commitment by having talked about such things WHEREAS he not only had never actively discouraged such talks (even from The Off prior to meeting), but had actually initiated them himself! (Along with having said he was thinking about cohabiting, too, and taking out a loan for 'engagement night', and even going so far as willingly joining you to look at apartments for the pair of you, these talks included - NOTE RE TODAY'S ANALYSIS - the proposal of you and he spending Christmas together(!!!));

- (Next day) He backtracked over getting together after class and then you didn't hear from him the following day;

- He could bring himself to throw away your 'togetherness' pictures from paddleboarding that summer. (Note, Amanda: slightly too blurry or not, no man in love with a woman throws away their joint memorabilia, especially not PHOTOS!) He made no apology and redressed only via a promise of "next time we'll take more" (which is too far into the future for the promise to bear any meaning);

- Concerning the next refereeing event, he preempted any accusation about knowing anybody in the area or the hotel itself and being completely solitary (common symptom of lie-exposure-avoidance using one piece of truth as its basis to lend plausibility);

- Despite having also justified the break-up with the alleged fact of his having insufficient free time, he invited your sister's boyfriend and friends, practical strangers, to a Poker tournament/ You're at a loss as to why he did that but, me, I reckon it was BECAUSE he knew it would get reported back to you and would upset you (upset = not thinking straight and hell-bent on staying in the "relationship" even if only to crack that perplexing mystery);

- He manages to do as you ask and without arguing/pushing aka He manages go against the pushy, masculine urge of a man in love, to phone (through needing to hear your voice to gain a sense of having been in your company due to missing it);

- When he texts, it tends to be morning or daytime; the one and only time he texted you at night was to check up on whether you were 'behaving' yourself during a celebratory night on the town he thought you'd gone to (with your roommate whom, I can gather, is single);

- The messages themselves lack words and sentiments that demonstrate love;

- Prior to his confession of "being scared", these text exchanges were left hanging incomplete on his side (following you having demonstrated you weren't at risk of being 'stolen');

- Him seeming to to grow keener came suddenly and solely on the heels of him thinking another man was encroaching onto 'his' territory (he shouldn't need the threat of competition to make him re-keen);

- His contradiction of

- His Freudian Slip: "Hopefully things will end up the way you want".

- He's still not seeing you very frequently at all;

- He's more notably not seeing you on Prime Date Day/Night despite this, you'd think, still leaves you open to being 'stolen' when supposedly the suspicion of that having begun to happen had got him into a genuinely total lather;

- Whenever he does see you, it's with woefully inadequate notice;

- He is not making specific plans over what a date will consist of;

- He's not wanting you there on up-coming key special celebrations - save for when wanting to compete with brother or, now, possibly, to increase the fun of a "boring" shopping trip with mum and (?) (he says) brother. Tell me - had you given him any reason to suspect you'd have to decline or did he include any forward descriptive that would inevitably put you off saying yes?

 

(Crikey, that's a long list already, isn't it?!!)

 

 

After more thought on the matter, I would also like to re-voice my suspicion re him reading this thread as further supported by the fact that on page 12 - 16th November - I asked, in such a sarcastic way to imply not having done so was a sign that supported him using you as a mere back-up woman/not being in love with you like he had still claimed, whether he had snogged you or tried to have sex with you when you dropped round his trousers (as indicative of major desire trumping etiquette, as is common in these situations). He hadn't, despite the opportunity had been there and he HADN'T refrained from hugging you, etc. (which tallies with an endeavour to warm you back up). Yesterday, following the first proper date since the break-up - which in itself surprised you - (and note we'd also discussed the meaning in lack of proper dates as opposed to just hanging out!) - he ensured to do both. The morning after, you got this: "He told me about a friend of his who's wife just left him after 16 years for someone else." as a reason for his inability to do the relationship more wholeheartedly. My question is: Why the need for this justification when, SURELY, the fact he'd been cheated on by his ex was already more than enough?! Error - Over-embellishment Alert!!!... *unless* it's because he'd read how his prior submission and efforts generally had failed to do the trick to convince.

 

You earlier - on the 9th Nov - had also divulged to us about there having been other interested males whom you intended to date. This you did again on the 14th ("I've been in contact with other guys and have accepted their invitations for a drink or dinner."). On the 16th Nov, only TWO DAYS AFTER YOUR REASSERTION OF THIS SITUATION (thereby making it apparently more than just hot air) - the minute you failed to follow a previous pattern of behaviour of yours (by not leaping into response mode to a check-up text) - he demonstrated *FAR* too much confidence over what one would think had to be a mere guess, in his accusatory claim about you already seeing someone else - again, specifically about "the guy" being too much fun [for you to have bothered answering his text promptly]. Again, you could have been too busy/away from your phone for MYRIAD reasons unconnected with dating, yet, I repeat, he was too damned sure that this was what you were up to!

 

Also note, I seem to recall that very early on in this thread, just after the 'break-up' you basically made complaining mention of the fact he'd many a time 'forced' you to watch soccer. Come the first post-break-up date, you were gobsmacked by the fact he switched over to the football...but not before first MAKING A POINT OF SAYING he wasn't going to force you to watch football like he'd used to! So drastic was this attitude shift - with no reason for it considering at this point you weren't saying or doing anything to indicate you didn't want to watch soccer - that it impacted all too heavily on you in your mind. Also, why point it out like that when the action surely spoke for itself?? (I'd also like to know, WHY STILL SPORT, NOT TO MENTION AN ALL TOO SIMILAR ONE TO THE ONE HE WANTED TO WATCH? Surely if his aim were genuinely to please you, it should have been something that especially would appeal to you specifically??)

 

This thread also features you and I agreeing that to lend his claim of wanting self-betterment any validity, he should be *doing* concrete things towards such. Hey-ho - we now suddenly, out of the Blue (for one who's simultaneously claiming to still have reticence due to his friend and his 16-year marital splat) have him purporting to be getting such concretes in place (with a (cough!) *future* promise to provide or demonstrate proof of it/them as if doing so would automatically equate to being for your benefit as a couple rather than solely himself). This equals encouragement married with discouragement! (The two cancel each other out, note.)

 

And then, again, we have him attempting to replicate the very same sentiment contained within a hypothetical statement I'd just ONLY THE DAY BEFORE described as being wholly indicative of a man who is *not* trying to play you into being his woman of mere convenience. That specific yardstick of mine was INARGUABLE...a BIGGIE. So I'm not surprised if a player read it he would be damn quick about trying (despite failing to pull it off) to dispell his association with such characteristic, dishonourability-indicative behaviour via an otherwise inexplicable 180-degree attitude shift.

 

WHAT IS HE - TELE-FLIPPIN'-PATHIC?!

 

Come ONNNN!

 

Amanda, I don't know *how* he's found this thread if you haven't left your phone 'open' and have it password-locked (we need someone techie, here, to tell us) but when you put all these 2s together as make 4 with his 2s, it's looking like pretty damning evidence of him using your 'diary' to know what lately to do and not do as would convince you he's deep down for real. At this point, missus, I would put serious money on him snooping on here!

 

Did you know there are websites that exploit bitter men with axes to grind against women (usually those who've been recent cheated on before being abandoned) by clueing them up as to how to deliberately play the sort of women who are particularly trusting and giving as well as a bit too on the eager side to find a lifelong partner? Bet you anything you like if you read any of them they would include highly ingenious technical tips on how to track a woman's forum participation down to the extent whereby you can comprehensively read what she's thinking and feeling, i.e. whether your act is working or not (and what to do about it if not).

 

"Treat them mean to make them keen". This includes convincing women you're suddenly dumping their arse to get them walking on eggshells, too scared to disagree or argue or assert their OWN needs *whatsoever*. It's as I've mentioned before, a classic tactic. And the more unexpected and out of line with prior behaviour it is, the better!

 

Furthermore, him having joined one of these types of sites but still being an amateur and/or NOT having his heart *100%* in being a player as opposed to furthering a legitimate romantic union, would very nicely explain why he'd gone too overboard as well as rushed things in his endeavour to have you believe as quickly as possible that he was a man on the look-out for a long-haul relationship per se as well as wanted that with you specifically - to the point where (as above) when he then [cough!] ended it yet didn't end it (que?), you were sooooo totally unexpecting it and had noticed ZERO signs in the run-up.

 

So I for one would be VERY interested to see whether, now I'm openly collating this negatives/evidence-towards-him-playing-you list, he starts to try to reverse any of the negatives therein or indeed start to introduce their oppositional counterparts too suddenly and starkly. *VERY* interested.

 

(...and that sentiment goes to you, too, Mr Think-You're-So-Clever Snoopypants! Consider yourself now hand-tied by the ex-best player in town. MLEUGH!)

 

xoxo

[Amandacast57]

I'm headed to a football game so I can't respond to everything I want to on the phone (I will later).

 

I just don't know how it is possible for him to find me on here. The name I used is from a book I read. It's not my real name. The picture is real but it doesn't show up in any searches. He isn't skilled at computers, in fact, far from it.

 

Could it not be possible that he is just doing these things on his own, based on his own feelings?

 

It is just confusing when I'm told that until he starts taking me out, etc. that I shouldn't believe anything. But then when he does take me out to dinner and pays, invites me to come out for a family thing, etc. it is still not genuine.

[Nattersmatter]

The name may not be yours but the thread is and so is the photo (which is perfectly clear for identification purposes). All one would need to do is open all the current-most threads - particularly under Break Up and - voila! - there is your face on the opening post. How hard is that bit?

 

I don't know how it's possible either in terms of the mechanics but I DO know it happens, regardless. A lot. It was even done to me, 6 years back (on MatchDotCom) by an ex.... a man whom when it came to the convincing impressions he gave me, had always been a complete techie-duh-brain (not! - try the exact opposite!). Again, I noticed the patterns between my own movements and his subequent ones. It was also done by my ex-husband-to-be, the year before that - snooping, remotely, using technology for that very purpose, on emails and forum participation as well as reading all mails between myself and my solicitor (despite I didn't find out til months later, whereupon the proof - gained via a number of traps I set after my mind sat up sharply at the patterns-recognition - was used against him in court).

 

Again - we need someone techie-minded or a converted ex-perpetrator; I'm not - I don't tend to need to be due TO being almost abnormally patterns-sensitive and know how to remedy it without techie knowledge/measures. PS: I don't know many men who genuinely don't have a natural aptitude for *male-designed* computer technology whereby even if previously ill-educated they can quickly get their head around it. These things men *do* talk to each other about, better believe it.

 

Furthermore, although there wasn't the technology back then (- '...Orange for Christmas, living in a cardboard box, waking up one hour before we went to sleep', LOL), in my 20s I was an excellent player. I didn't even realise that was what I was, I was just blindly following my own dread-of-commitment avoidance urges and wanting to "do it like a brother, do it like a dude". But I had men literally falling, crying and begging and proposing marriage at my feet, left, right and centre ("'an izn'id ironic... doncha think?") which (ugh!) achieved nothing but to make me from then on up my ante. If you've been in a certain specific place, and extensively so, it's not hard to recognise someone else who's in it including all of the associated behaviours.

 

Yes, it's possible he's doing these things on his own. But that doesn't explain the UNCANNY TIMING (especially that day later one in response to the biggie distinction-drawing/illustrating). There are also plenty of other things he could do, demonstration-wise, that we *haven't* mentioned (for one example, buying you a meaningful gift).

 

I KNOW it's confusing. You have literally, by whatever proportion, TWO MINDS in operation inside him at this juncture - one saying and doing one thing and the other the complete opposite. Basically the advice these sites gives are just a breakdown of what the genuine commitmentphobic tend to do naturally unawares. It's these patterns and their timings being so specific that have hit me between the eyes and have me believing it's concerted behaviour on his part. But regarding the details: When I said, starts taking you out, I meant CONSISTENTLY. And that would have to *exclude* all the other revealingly contradictive, negative symptoms he's displaying (e.g. too little notice). As I say - you have to examine all behaviour as a PACKAGE... or in his case, TWO...and compare their weights (that weight, not number of items). Prime example - that contradictory loyal to each other/date others statement. Yes. VERY confusing. That's why you have to treat whatever he does and says as coming from two conjoined twins... basically work out which twin is dominant. If you see it that way it becomes far less confusing.

 

The things he's doing might BE genuine, meaning massive-MASSIVE coincidences *do* exist. I don't believe in them myself because if you trace back diligently enough, you can always find the link. "Coincidence" is just a word for, 'I can't work it out and I can't be bothered, anyway'. In fact, coincidence is chain reaction in motion. If you have the end link you can, despite it takes effort, locate the first by working backwards. I've mostly always managed to. One or two things forever remain an inexplicable-to-all mystery (I could tell you one if you like? Blow your mind, it will.).

 

Listen, though - if I thought for one moment that this guy is *whole*-heartedly into conning you for his own convenience, there is no WAY I would agree to keep helping you. He's no professional player, that much is obvious... which has to mean his heart isn't totally in it. So there IS hope. But the trouble is, whether you have the time and patience to wait until his two minds become reconciled with the one desire and aim because these things take TIME. But if you're hell-bent on sticking with this - which, clearly you are (and I or anyone else saying, 'I'm out!' won't make a blind bit of difference to put you off, so why bother?) - I don't want you responding to FALSE signs of hope whilst missing any genuine signs. You have to know which ones there'll be any point to encouraging and drawing out and which to overlook or counter and 'kill'. Can you appreciate the sense in what I'm saying, here?

 

I should also mention that I've experienced both first and second-hand BOTH ends of the dating spectrum and in both roles: I've been messed around/I've messed around at the extreme left..... all the way through said spectrum to now, which is more happy and lastingly in love than I ever imagined existed. I'm neither over-positive nor over-negative, I'm leaving all personal feelings out of it and taking notice only of the situation and signs therein.

 

(LOL - I sound like I'm interviewing for a job! Here - what benefits does your company provide? Can I have a company car?

 

xoxo

[Amandacast57]

You not only need to be clearer about a few things, you need to cease completely ignoring certain questions in favour of those you do wish to answer (as now reiterated or re-presented below); then you would find my insight even more impressive (ps: mleugh). I'm like a calculator (where 'rubbish' means incorrect or missing numbers): rubbish in = rubbish total out, correct value in = correct total out. Whether you do this because you're not concentrating properly or because your phone screen is too small, it needs to stop so that that doesn't keep taking more time for either of us than need be, okay? Thanks.

 

I know sometimes I just don't know what to say or how to respond.

 

That being the case, your failure to respond in the correct way - which would be taking his speech at face value, behaving according to a woman who's been ditched and thereby making him have to bear the consequences - cannot be excused by lack of experience.

 

I know it's so cliche to say but I did do NC for about 5 days and it just didn't feel right. Whatever his reasoning was, whether it be lack of time, scared, not in love, etc, it just felt silly and stupid. Even last night I told him that I, as well as a lot of other people, found it VERY hard to believe that he didn't love me. He neither denied or agreed.

 

Clearly, as I implied in my last mail, your problem is not one of failing to work out the meaning of words and actions in a rational sense. Nor, from what we've seen, is it insight (instinctual recognition). So that leaves only, you being too hell-bent on getting what you want regardless of whether the other person consciously feels they want it or not. Fine if that's the case based on your intuition telling you he doth protesteth too much, but at least be willing to admit it. Otherwise, how on earth can your aim be true if before you shoot your arrow at the bullseye you don't even know in which direction you yourself are orientated thus aiming from?

 

I don't want something if it is something he will never want. My ex ex told me straight up that he didn't see us getting back together. It was hard, buti didn't call him.

 

Again, cliche, but I just feel like this is all him being scared. Not us not being compatible or getting a long or someone else.

 

Well, of course you're 50% to blame - that's relationship law and is called Co-Creation. But that doesn't mean you have to be punished by being messed around, left in the dark, and manipulated any more than it gives him any right to. His right is only to take it or walk away OR to address the problem like a grown-up in an endeavour to avoid either.

 

Yes, I agree with this. I hope that the talks we have had help. Like the talk we had in the kitchen. We talked about reasons why people cheat. He doesn't have a right to string me along or leave me in the dark and although I'm putting up with it right now, I certainly won't be entertaining this forever. If this truly is a "scared" issue, he is going to have to make a decision on whether me and this relationship is worth it, or not.

 

So in summary, no, you're *not* to blame in the final analysis. Because his INTENTION was wrong according to what one would *expect* going by his age and stage and ones own age and stage of expected thus anticipatable readiness (i.e. if he's not ready for serious biz he should be dating teenagers). Plus, put it this way: how could you possibly have KEPT pressuring for cohabitation/marriage had he, the very *first* time you'd ever uttered anything of this commitment-based nature, communicated clearly that despite he was headed in that general direction he simply wasn't there YET where 'there' means discussing plans is required?

 

And that is something I don't understand. As I have stated from the beginning, I wasn't the only one talking about the future. We looked at apartments, talked about what furniture we would use, what kind of engagement ring I wanted.

 

Even on Wednesday, we talked about commitment but it was of him saying "my wife would this" and "my wife would that". We joked about how difficult I'd be if I was pregnant and he described how he would go about dealing with me. We talked about what would happen if I got pregnant. We don't use protection (never have - risky I know). Kind of odd for him not to think too much of the fact that pregnancy is possible.

 

But, then, control-freaks always DO blame themselves because obviously if they're to blame then the onus falls onto them to fix things. Furthermore, why would you want to expend all this effort on someone whom you feel you could quite easily live without? Didn't anyone tell you that true love means despite you *could* if you really had to, you wouldn't-couldn't ever WANT to which still amounts to Being Incapable?? Tsk... course they did (and Gotcha!).

 

Yes, I'm a control freak. I'll admit it But I don't think this is all up to me to fix. He has to work past his issues. And honestly, I don't see my life without him in it. So it's hard

 

So can we just cut the crap and admit you're as half-hairy monster as the rest of us are or ever have been in the past? I

think you'll find things will be a darn sight easier if you do. And for those who can't stomach the idea, look at it this way: this is STILL - despite further back in the Red spectrum of the curriculum - our ultimately helping shunt you closer towards a successful relationship, whomever that may be: with ego equalised, it'll be out of your system forever, meaning, with the NEXT chap (remotely-possibly this one, even) you can keep your own agenda totally pure in terms of complication-free desires. Further, for those who think getting back into a relationship primarily just to out-fox someone to rebalance the *past* books is a sh*tty thing to do: no, it's not... because it'll teach him a lesson about judgement that can do nothing but ultimately speed *him* to faster eventual success, too.

 

Haha, I really don't want to get back together just to turn around and dump him. I ultimately want us to get back together and be happy like we were and have been the times we have hung out since. I want us to work together as a team so he can accomplish his goals and I can accomplish mine. I really want him to be able to trust me and know that I won't hurt him the way the others did.

 

Leaving aside the fact that when men are REALLY fired up about bagging you they tend to - "whoops, sorry, heh-heh" - "forget" time and time again that you don't like live calls - WHY don't you?

 

I don't like talking on the phone. Usually I'm doing something. I mean, he called last night and he has called another time after we broke up that I specifically remember. I just prefer texting.

 

Scratch that, I now see you were talking about this other guy who wanted to see you sooner. Saying that, however, where still concerns Footie Boy: you hadn't heard from him at all on the Saturday 17th Nov (*Saturday=Prime Dating Day*, note!!). And then yesterday, 23rd Nov, you say the pair of you were in contact this week, although you don't specify which day. Clearly it wasn't yesterday itself, though. So even assuming it was the day before - the 22nd - that still leaves possibly only the 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st or 22nd, five days. Which day was his invitation? Regardless of your answer - and this being the upshot: normally a guy who purports to love you/still love you (as justification for still wanting to see you despite he broke it off) books you for the next date WHILST *ON* THE PREVIOUS DATE. This he is not doing, added to not having even got in touch WHATSOEVER during the whole of Prime Date Day & Night. (WHY not?!)

 

Hmmm I'm a little confused by his so let me try to explain further. On November 17th and 18th, he was out of town reffing a soccer tournament. So are you saying its bad he didn't contact me on a prime dating night because he doesn't care if I'm out with someone else or that he should have asked me out?

 

When I say we were in contact, we have talked every day since November 7, with the exception of November 17th and 18th. I can only say that he probably didn't contact me on those days because he was tired and got back to the hotel and went to sleep.

 

Not sure if it makes a difference (I'm trying to include all information), he told me the other day that had he known his roommate wouldn't show up (the soccer tournament association books the hotels, including roommates), he would have had me come down there with him.

 

So what. Most modern-day restaurants, bars and leisure facilities are open all day. Plus there's such a thing called Back-up Plan B or Back-up Plan C (as many as you like). Face it - his plan WAS that you'd "hang out" (at his) (sitting-room-->bedroom). The idea for eating out was clearly CAUSED by something - which I still maintain (keep reading) was his brother's invitation. This fits when you consider men are renowned for not giving much notice because men naturally are more spontaneous (despite they become willing to dance to the feminine preference for notice when they love and respect her).

 

Haha, I'll legit thnk that his actions are genuine and then I'll read what you think and I change my mind.

 

Er... that would (age of 19) make his brother *older*, then. And how would YOU know he's not competitive with his brother?... especially when as I already stated, brotherly competitiveness is exceedingly common.

 

Well I meant that I don't think inviting me out would be because of his younger brother. I don't think he's the type to bring me somewhere when he really doesnt want me there.

 

Hell - look at the evidence in reality application: his SUPPOSEDLY YOUNGER brother is *engaged*! Whereas Footie Boy can't even handle TALKING about it (so he claims)! I rest my case. His brother is older than him and yes they are competitive

 

Not that it makes a difference, but he has 2 younger brothers. The one who invited us out for hs girlfriends birthday is 22. The other one who is engaged is 25.

 

Firstly, if this was already a fixed plan of yours, how come you had FOUR tickets?

 

I work in the media industry. I have reps I work with at various tv stations. They give me free tickets last minute. So my rep gave me 4 tickets on Wednesday afternoon for Fridat night and I asked the ex Wednesday night when I saw him if he would like to go.

 

Okay - my mistake. HOWEVER...One toothbrush and razor in-situ does not attitude of commitment or less-than-casual-ness make. Not when it equally gels with FWB-based convenience (the less palatable form of long-haul). Not LEAST when, again, you remember these episodes are all on WEEKDAYS rather than primary dating days. You're STILL not being given priority over other "things" or other woman/women. And that goes towards my seeing clearly, still, that this is not 'trying again', it's trying as FWBs merely PRESENTED TO YOU LYINGLY as trying again.

 

Yes, some days I feel like a fwb. But then there are days like when he tells his family (knowing they want us together) that we are hanging out and bringning me around them, that is is more than fwb. I'm sure Im just trying to paint it the way I want it but I never expect a fwb to be openly affectionate and loving to you in public, pay for your meals or drinks, etc.

 

 

It having been a wake-up call would see him seeing you on prime dating days, etc., (as above sub-recap). You're not thinking straight, Amanda, clearly you're not... Because if HE isn't seeing you on the Saturday or Saturday night, that leaves you free to see some other man. Wake-up call is this: "OMG, what have I *done*?! I love this woman to pieces. There is no way I can bear the thought and risk of losing her a second time. This time I'll make SURE no other man can lure her away!... because I'll BE there during all such most opportune times myself!"

 

He probably isn't concerned since he asked me to remain loyal to him and even more recently, on Thursday morning, he asked me to please be patient and remain single through December, that after that, things would be different. ???

 

Again, you're not thinking comprehensively enough. How is it less stressful to be surrounded on these prime Loved-Ones Days by his however-many relatives but not you???

 

I can't answer that. I guess I'll just have to see if I spe d Christmas with him. It wasn't out of the question.

 

 

Bet you any money you like that come end December, he'll introduce some NEW excuse, not to do all the motions of a man who loves you irrespective of being unready to talk about eventual commitment

.

 

If he does, I'm out. He can't sit here and tell me to be patient and remain single until the end of December. You know what. Fine. I'm an understanding person. If you feel so overwhelmed by exams (a lot of people do) as well as moving, etc. then I'll give you that time to take care of it. But don't sit here and tell me that things will be different after the end of December and then not produce.

 

Refer to above 'simpler, less risky remedy' and the fact that Mr Allegedly Had A Wake-up Call STILL not dating you frequently, regularly, let alone consistently, on Prime Dating Days.

 

I think I have hope because we haven't even been broken up a month and it seemed like when the pressure was off, he was more wanting to take me out, be sweet and loving, do the things I want to do. And it went from "I don't have time for a relationship" to "just be patient until the end of December".

 

A woman who accompanies your son on a shopping trip but *doesn't* get invited to *two* IMMINENT key celebration days, does not Steady, Exclusive Girlfriend make. Plus, is/was the trip scheduled for PRIOR to brother's fiancee's birthday celebration? If before - how do you know the invitation isn't just to make his measuring up to brother that more believeable?

 

I don't understand this. The shopping trip was for Black Friday so it was planned a while ago and I think the going out for some drinks for his brothers girlfriends birthday is being made bigger than it is. I just dont see how him showing up with me is better than without me. It's not like the two brothers and their girlfriend/fiancé weren't at his parents house for thanksgiving when he was there by himself.

 

Anyway - IS this shopping outing firmly booked up?

 

I opted not to go because I didn't want to

 

Here's a question you failed to address: What if he needs neither mobile or password to track you to onto here? Furthermore - where is the .1% uncertainty coming from? IS it possible he could have spotted the forum name displayed on your phone or simply overheard you make mention of it?

 

I'm going to have to stick with the fact that I think it is a coincidence. I've never mentioned this forum to him and thinking back, I'm not in my phone at all when we hang out. It stays in my purse

 

More failures to address:

Did you or did you not in whatever fashion quote the definitive statement re what an honourable male will say to set you free as opposed to not?

Do you not agree the timing and similarity of this sudden turn-around in attitude is stunningly coincidental???

 

I think a guy will set you free if they truly know it won't work. I think a guy won't set you free if they want you when they are ready.

 

And again, I'm going to have to go with it just being a crazy coincidence.

 

Listen: No-one would be pleased more than me if I could go back to my original conclusion that he just spooked himself. But if that IS still the case then you need to realise: he is not yet DE-spooked. Again, sadly, I don't think so because the Loves Me Not side of the scale is still bottommost.

 

I'd like to think he's just scared. And the more he tells me the more I think that is the case. He made a comment last night about "doing what all the other girls did to him". I couldn't remember what it was in reference to but again, he thinks I'm going to end up treating him the same way.

 

- Despite his claim he wasn't dumping you because he *didn't* love you, he somehow managed to resist kissing you (save for on the forehead);

 

Sorry if I didn't mention it, but he did kiss me. He cupped my face and kissed me

[Amandacast57]

Is it weird that I really don't think he has found this thread?

 

The first mention of being scared was while we were eating dinner. He said he had been thinking a lot and he felt like he was scared.

 

Then the conversation about the couple came up like this:

 

I was laying in his bed and he was packing his stuff to go to his parents. He said "so do you remember so and so and his wife? Well she left him. She said there was someone else and had been for 12 weeks". He goes on to talk about how the guy showed up to the soccer game drunk because he was so upset. He said how he was so great and told me all the ways this guy sacrificed his time to make sure his wife was able to do the things he wanted. And then he said how awful it is to give someone your all and them just leave you.

 

 

 

I don't think it has anything to do with reading this thread. I think what it had to do with was the part of me telling him I was going out for some drinks with my roommate. I'm sure he thinks I sit at home and do nothing therefore, he need not worry. But the fact that he knew I was going out, knows that guys would probably hit on me and possibly take me away from him...THAT was his motivation for the texts he sent

 

 

 

The reason he put it on football is because we always watched football on Sundays because we play in a fantasy football league. So I actually WANTED to watch the game. As far as him not making me watch soccer? My guess is because why would I want to hang out if I was forced to watch something I didn't want to?

 

 

 

I'm not sure I have an answer for this. The only thing I can say is that the "thinking" he says he has been doing, may have put things into perspective?? He may be thinking about it on a regular basis?? Maybe not??

[Amandacast57]

Yes, it's possible he's doing these things on his own. But that doesn't explain the UNCANNY TIMING (especially that day later one in response to the biggie distinction-drawing/illustrating). There are also plenty of other things he could do, demonstration-wise, that we *haven't* mentioned (for one example, buying you a meaningful gift).

 

Hehe, I'd love a gift. But I don't expect one right now. We do have to keep in mind it hasn't even been a month since the break up and he is going back and forth on what he wants. But, and I'm not getting my hopes up, yesterday he told me how he bought Christmas presents but had to hide them before I got there. I wondered if he got me anything.

 

I KNOW it's confusing. You have literally, by whatever proportion, TWO MINDS in operation inside him at this juncture - one saying and doing one thing and the other the complete opposite. Basically the advice these sites gives are just a breakdown of what the genuine commitmentphobic tend to do naturally unawares. It's these patterns and their timings being so specific that have hit me between the eyes and have me believing it's concerted behaviour on his part. But regarding the details: When I said, starts taking you out, I meant CONSISTENTLY. And that would have to *exclude* all the other revealingly contradictive, negative symptoms he's displaying (e.g. too little notice). As I say - you have to examine all behaviour as a PACKAGE... or in his case, TWO...and compare their weights (that weight, not number of items). Prime example - that contradictory loyal to each other/date others statement. Yes. VERY confusing. That's why you have to treat whatever he does and says as coming from two conjoined twins... basically work out which twin is dominant. If you see it that way it becomes far less confusing.

 

Confusing doesn't begin to describe it. CLEARLY there are 2 minds saying different things. Like the whole "it isn't fair for me to ask you to hold out for me" but then on multiple occasions asking me to be loyal, be patient and remain single.

 

The things he's doing might BE genuine, meaning massive-MASSIVE coincidences *do* exist. I don't believe in them myself because if you trace back diligently enough, you can always find the link. "Coincidence" is just a word for, 'I can't work it out and I can't be bothered, anyway'. In fact, coincidence is chain reaction in motion. If you have the end link you can, despite it takes effort, locate the first by working backwards. I've mostly always managed to. One or two things forever remain an inexplicable-to-all mystery (I could tell you one if you like? Blow your mind, it will.).

 

Please tell!

 

Listen, though - if I thought for one moment that this guy is *whole*-heartedly into conning you for his own convenience, there is no WAY I would agree to keep helping you. He's no professional player, that much is obvious... which has to mean his heart isn't totally in it. So there IS hope. But the trouble is, whether you have the time and patience to wait until his two minds become reconciled with the one desire and aim because these things take TIME. But if you're hell-bent on sticking with this - which, clearly you are (and I or anyone else saying, 'I'm out!' won't make a blind bit of difference to put you off, so why bother?) - I don't want you responding to FALSE signs of hope whilst missing any genuine signs. You have to know which ones there'll be any point to encouraging and drawing out and which to overlook or counter and 'kill'. Can you appreciate the sense in what I'm saying, here?

 

I don't think he's conning or playing me either. I actually believe him when he says there is no one else. I do have time and patience to see where it goes but eventually that will wear out. I can't spend years of my life hoping he will come around. It SEEMS like we are making progress but I don't know if it will continue. It is just one of those things where I see the connection we have and yes, the love, and it's not something I can just walk away from without seeing.

 

Now on to my update from the last few days:

 

After we parted ways on Thirsday morning, we didn't speak the rest of the day. I knew he was spending time with his family and I was too. Friday morning he texted me good morning. That was when he told me that he asked his parents if they wanted to go with us to the game. The initially said yes but then decided that they shouldn't since his grandfather and wife were in town from Michigan for the holidays. We ended up going by ourselves. When I first saw him, he was question ing everything I had done the day before and told me everything he did.

 

On the way to the game, he seemed like he was in a bad mood. I asked him what was wrong. He said he had spent the last few days doing everything everyone else wanted to do. He slept on the couch, sat on the floor, forgoed shopping where he wanted to shop for black Friday, endured criticism on what he should/should not be doing and when his grandfather gave his dad $5,000 and his dad said he was going to put it towards the 25 year old brother's wedding, it upset him because when he was engaged, his parents offered $500. He then said "that is why I want to be alone. So I can do some of the things I want to do".

 

Side note: I'm sure it's discouraging to be thought of last or criticized for his choices but he is 31. His parents want him to get married and have children. Instead, he is talking about playing soccer professionally. I know it hurts, but I'm sure if he got it together, had a steady girlfriend, etc. his parents would probably give him more priority.

 

Anyways, the game was fun. Again, he was sweet and loving...rubbed my leg, put his arm around me, got up and got me drinks. I joked and said "if I still like you next year, we can go to a Michigan football game" (something he is DYING to do). He smiled and said "ok".

 

When we left we went out for some drinks then left to go home. I was a bit tipsy so I can't remember exact conversations but I told him that I thought it was ridiculous that he felt he had to be alone to do things he wanted that if he wanted to look at certain things while shopping on Black Friday that I would have been more than apoy to go with him. I geared up a little bit but held it together, especially having been drinking.

 

We got back to his house and got ready for bed. We talked about taking a weekend trip to the mountains. And again brought up me being patient/end of December thing. Again, I was a bit tipsy so I don't remember but he said something like wait until the end of the Myan calendar (????).

 

We turned the lights off to go to bed and about 5 minutes later he gets up and goes tote bathroom. Then I hear him throwing up (he hadn't been drinking so it must have been something he ate. Soi get up, go intone bathroom and rub his back while he is throwing up, basically waitedon him. I got him water, crackers and brought a blanket in to wrap him in (he was shivering). He sat up on the bathtub and put his head into my stomach and I just rubbed his head. I finally got him in bed, put a trash can by the bed and then I got in bed. He reached over and grabbed my hand and that is how we fell asleep.

 

This morning he told me how nice I was to take care of him. I had to leave to get ready for the football game and he kissed me bye. I haven't hard anything since. I know he was going back over to his parents house to watch the Michigan vs Ohio State game.

[Nattersmatter]

I know sometimes I just don't know what to say or how to respond.

 

I noticed. This is what found you in difficulty as gave him an opening for his emotional blackmailing tactic that 'sushi night'. What's wrong with SAYING you don't know what to say so you'll give it more thought and get back to me/them? Who was it in your past who taught you that you haff to anssver ze qvuestions *now*, SCHNELL!!! ?

 

I know it's so cliche to say but I did do NC for about 5 days and it just didn't feel right.

 

It never does at first. But it's perfectly simple: if someone is refusing to cease behaving in a way that detriments you and gets you all upset yet is simultaneously denying you any means for making them cease and/or want to cease, not least by rendering exchange of words ineffectual (because theirs is peppered with disinformation), you are within perfect rights to "say" how you feel about it with your feet instead. Actions say 'I'm not HAVING it!' far more credibly than the mouth. Watch a dog or toddler training DVD and, you'll see.

 

Whatever his reasoning was, whether it be lack of time, scared, not in love, etc, it just felt silly and stupid. Even last night I told him that I, as well as a lot of other people, found it VERY hard to believe that he didn't love me. He neither denied or agreed.

 

And yet he could too easily have agreed! That would have been bish, bash, bosh, SORTED! in terms of vitally reassuring you just enough, wouldn't it?... as well as wholly in line with his recent "I'm just scared and that's simply because friend/16yrs/divorce" - the inference being, It's not you, it's *me*?

 

There you go (yet again), then!

 

I don't want something if it is something he will never want. My ex ex told me straight up that he didn't see us getting back together. It was hard, buti didn't call him.

 

We beans can deal with anything (and have been - hence we still exist!) as long as we know what it is we're dealing with.

Again, cliche, but I just feel like this is all him being scared. Not us not being compatible or getting a long or someone else.

 

And that could be your instincts proving correct or it could be wishful thinking because it's easier and adheres to your need to control and fix. While your mind is this heavily distracted thanks to his recent behaviour, you can't be sure which because you don't have full cylindry let alone a mind capable of full objectivity and dispassion or even clinical mercenariness. (Like I said, a third party getting pulled in is just a symptom, anyway. You can just as equally find yourself being two-timed by your man courtesy of a hang-glider or motorbike! Being in it to win it and maintain that success is all that matters.) So it's safer NOT to settle your mind on any one cause (otherwise that enables said case of responding to the wrong thing whilst overlooking a right thing as you misinterpret/re-colour either type to suit the colour of the assumptive or mistaken conclusion box). Keep the jury out and just deal with each individual 'item' as it comes at you, i.e. try to fit any word or deed against ALL possible conclusions rather than just the one. That way it'll get slotted into its correct place. These are:

 

[1] just scared but ultimately, deeper-down well-intentioned thus unwittingly producing commitment-shy-come-player-type behaviour,

[2] just pretending to be scared rather than just half-loath, but only because he sees it as more pride-protecting than admitting he is undecided (in two minds) and all over the place,

[3] just pretending to be scared as an acceptable cover that keeps you staying close by so he can wittingly and maliciously play you in an endeavour to feel superior and powerful.

 

or put another way:

 

[1] a genuinely confused numptie, one who hasn't a clue what the hell he's doing because he's not even stopped to think about how his behaviour's affecting you

[2] a genuinely confused git who is both (half and half) wittingly and unwittingly out to dupe you as well as wittingly and unwittingly determined not to lose you

[3] a nasty git who is deliberately out to dupe you (for past/present/future ego-equalisation purposes)

 

or broadened out:

 

[1] a numptie

[2] a half-numptie-half-git

[3] a truly nasty git.

 

This guy, either knowingly or unknowingly-helplessly, is refusing to let you know or even correctly decide for yourself where you stand based on what specific case you're dealing with. Again - he should be setting you free until he DOES know!.. cos that's the gentlemanly thing to do and which you simply bust a harder gut to achieve if/when you're severely out of sorts/in crisis... and if once he did know - as was favourable to what you'd wanted - yet found he was too late, well... that's the way the cookie crumbles!. And *you*, Amanda, should have LET him let you go at that past point where (we presume) he was demonstrating the momentary strength to do so, in the philosophically-attitudinal knowledge that you'd either one day get him back or by then be happy with A N Other thus not give a flying duck once that moment arrived, anyway!

 

Control Freak attracts Control Freak, look. You're *both* trying to control fate, simply in slightly different ways.

 

...although that theory as relates to him does, of course, presume the Numptie of Half-Git-Half-Numptie category is the right one as opposed to Total Nasty Git, doesn't it, meaning, this 'show of momentary strength' may have been nothing of the sort, just a deliberate, high-stakes poker move.

 

Confused? You betcha! That's *why* you have to first identify which 'scale bowl' each incoming datum belongs with....until one of the bowls eventually goes CLONK! too loudly and cannot-CANNOT be thereafter out-done in terms of weightiest.

 

Me: Well, of course you're 50% to blame - that's relationship law and is called Co-Creation. But that doesn't mean you have to be punished by being messed around, left in the dark, and manipulated any more than it gives him any right to. His right is only to take it or walk away OR to address the problem like a grown-up in an endeavour to avoid either.

 

You: Yes, I agree with this. I hope that the talks we have had help.

 

Time will tell.

 

Like the talk we had in the kitchen. We talked about reasons why people cheat.

 

You did? Interesting! This could be one for the Half-Git-Half-Numptie bowl because it could be his way of clueing you up about WHY he'd thought trying the player method seemed like a good idea at the time (but now less so). Who raised the topic of cheating specifically? And what theoretical reasons got submitted and by whom?

 

He doesn't have a right to string me along or leave me in the dark and although I'm putting up with it right now, I certainly won't be entertaining this forever. If this truly is a "scared" issue, he is going to have to make a decision on whether me and this relationship is worth it, or not.

 

Absolutely! So what have you considered would be your do-able deadline?

 

And that is something I don't understand. As I have stated from the beginning, I wasn't the only one talking about the future. We looked at apartments, talked about what furniture we would use, what kind of engagement ring I wanted.

 

I KNOW. And as I've stated - this is what smacks of Player..... You can't out of nowhere whip away a floor as leaves a woman from then on too scared to assert her needs over yours in case it happens again, unless there's a floor to begin with, right? A floor (aka foundation) *normally* takes a certain amount of time to construct. He could see you were keen on HAVING a floor to begin with so that would have been his cue to help you construct it... but with no intention on progressing towards building a HOUSE onto it, only the intention of having something to whip away. But it can also smack of Commitment-shy/Commitmentphobic: he's swept away and ultra keen, then more practical-minded thoughts (and baggage fears) barge their way in (usually 2-4 mth mark, 3 being the commonest), the anaesthetising fantasy bubble bursts and it's , in which case you have to remove the pressure.

 

*Had* you withdrawn, you'd have found out pretty quickly which of the three had been his agenda. Unfortunately, by having *stayed* instead, you could well be playing into the hands of his player agenda. Can I therefore suggest that you *don't* have any more sexual activity with him until he *is* sure and consistently behaving accordingly, explaining that you don't want to increase your bondedness to him in case he eventually re-decides against? This way, IF he's genuine or predominantly genuine,

[1] he won't mind too much, tolerating what can prove only a *temporary* abstinence (with a light at the end of the tunnel within his own control),

[2] he'll have disincentive against thinking he can take his time deciding to point of dragging his feet,

[3] you'll be placing a personal needs assertion, thereby signalling that if he's trying to play you (break you) into being a doormat, it won't work (because you're the type who's far too sure of yourself) and he may as well give up trying and either knuckle down or sod off altogether,

[4] if he's caught between wanting to play you and wanting not to/reverting to being real and genuine, this demonstration of self-respect will be mightilly attractive to him as well as show him you're different thus not a deserving player-target anyway.

 

You 'ard enuff, Amanda?

 

Even on Wednesday, we talked about commitment but it was of him saying "my wife would this" and "my wife would that". We joked about how difficult I'd be if I was pregnant and he described how he would go about dealing with me. We talked about what would happen if I got pregnant. We don't use protection (never have - risky I know). Kind of odd for him not to think too much of the fact that pregnancy is possible.

 

Wife? Not fiancee like you said on page 1? Why, Amanda, I do believe you're finally starting to trust me, LOL. (Doesn't mean we're engaged or anything, though, right? And definitely no tongues! LOL)

 

Anyway, never mind that cos... I thought you two had put an embargo on all such future-commitment talks?... in your case to remove pressure and in his case to keep you slowed down? What's going on? Who started the topic? (Be honest, please - rubbish in=rubbish out.)

 

Kind of odd, ABSOLUTELY! Commitmentphobic words trumped by major (lack of) incongruous action or what! This means unless the guy is actually an outright sociopath who would get you up the duff before scarpering off onto the next victim - it's good news, you can put this one in the Merely A Confused Numptie bowl! (Green list) (PS: I'll separate the Red bowl into the other two when I get more distinguishing data.)

 

Yes, I'm a control freak. I'll admit it

 

Admit it? Admit it and smile? How very control-freakish and narcissistic of you! [joke] [sorry, couldn't resist, LOL]

 

But I don't think this is all up to me to fix. He has to work past his issues. And honestly, I don't see my life without him in it. So it's hard

 

Course he does. And - thought so... cos [wait for it, waaait fooor iiiiit........] your actions - THIS GIANT THREAD - said so. (Ta-daaa! LOL)

 

Yes, it is hard. And you have to be prepared to be disappointed. But I won't be a waste even if that's your outcome, certainly not.

 

Me(-Me-Meeeee! LOL): So can we just cut the crap and admit you're as half-hairy monster as the rest of us are or ever have been in the past? I

 

You: Haha, I really don't want to get back together just to turn around and dump him. I ultimately want us to get back together and be happy like we were and have been the times we have hung out since. I want us to work together as a team so he can accomplish his goals and I can accomplish mine. I really want him to be able to trust me and know that I won't hurt him the way the others did.

 

You don't know - you might want back together but if at any point you can see you're not going to get it, suddenly switch to wanting to dump him, i.e. you might have two oppositional agendas simultaneously in your own jello, just with one at the forefront, hogging all your senses. After all, Like *does* attract Like on more than the one level.... , Little Miss I-don't-want-to-go-shopping-with-your-mother-but-I'll-project-that-onto-you (mm-hmm) ;-).

 

I don't like talking on the phone. Usually I'm doing something. I mean, he called last night and he has called another time after we broke up that I specifically remember. I just prefer texting.

 

Tsk! Put this in the Numptie bowl as well, then. Cos, Amanda - that makes you a female anomaly in his eyes and as there's no such thing as far as he's aware of ('Women love yakking on the phone'), that must mean your mouth always said Love You but your actions said Love You *Not*.

 

I'm now beginning to suspect you're *both* scared but only he's the one admitting it! Is this why I've been coming to the logical conclusion that he's moreover a player? - because you've been giving me information that's biased courtesy of the fact it's been geared towards concealing your own fear of commitment? - your particular way of dealing with it being to rush and pressure the guy so that he fires *you* so that you're left looking like the innocent? - because you're super-woman in every other arena thus aren't comfortable admitting anything scares you???...hence why you've been moreover arguing all along with this particular conclusion picture despite it was you who handed me its jigsaw pieces in the first place???

 

(Bring your face closer to the monitor, please? I suddenly suspect I'll be getting the urge to shove a custard pie in it!

 

You'd better answer that before I continue responding to the rest of your mail with three of those bowls foremost in my mind when actually I might need only the two.

 

xoxo

[Amandacast57]

I noticed. This is what found you in difficulty as gave him an opening for his emotional blackmailing tactic that 'sushi night'. What's wrong with SAYING you don't know what to say so you'll give it more thought and get back to me/them? Who was it in your past who taught you that you haff to anssver ze qvuestions *now*, SCHNELL!!! ?

 

I'm not sure if it is someone in my past that has not me that (at least not that I can think of). I have a conscious. I like to make people happy and if I'm stern or forceful when standing up for myself, I feel bad afterwards. So when it come to hurting people's feelings or doing bad things, I rarely do it.

 

It never does at first. But it's perfectly simple: if someone is refusing to cease behaving in a way that detriments you and gets you all upset yet is simultaneously denying you any means for making them cease and/or want to cease, not least by rendering exchange of words ineffectual (because theirs is peppered with disinformation), you are within perfect rights to "say" how you feel about it with your feet instead. Actions say 'I'm not HAVING it!' far more credibly than the mouth. Watch a dog or toddler training DVD and, you'll see.

 

At the moment, he is not necessarily doing anything to get me all upset. I think about one of my exes that stayed in contact with me after our break up, basically a FWB relationship. His intentions the entire time was to get his fill of "fun" by going out and sleeping with girls while making sure I stayed around until he was ready to settle down (yes, he told me this). So if my current ex broke it off because he didn't have "time", yet was going out with girls, etc. I would stick with this any further. It does create some kind of anxiety in me and again, it is not something I'll be dealing with forever.

 

And yet he could too easily have agreed! That would have been bish, bash, bosh, SORTED! in terms of vitally reassuring you just enough, wouldn't it?... as well as wholly in line with his recent "I'm just scared and that's simply because friend/16yrs/divorce" - the inference being, It's not you, it's *me*?

 

Who knows?? Maybe saying it will create a feeling of vulnerability in him? Maybe he doesn't? Maybe he does?

 

This guy, either knowingly or unknowingly-helplessly, is refusing to let you know or even correctly decide for yourself where you stand based on what specific case you're dealing with. Again - he should be setting you free until he DOES know!.. cos that's the gentlemanly thing to do and which you simply bust a harder gut to achieve if/when you're severely out of sorts/in crisis... and if once he did know - as was favourable to what you'd wanted - yet found he was too late, well... that's the way the cookie crumbles!. And *you*, Amanda, should have LET him let you go at that past point where (we presume) he was demonstrating the momentary strength to do so, in the philosophically-attitudinal knowledge that you'd either one day get him back or by then be happy with A N Other thus not give a flying duck once that moment arrived, anyway!

 

Yes, is it just me or does it seems like when I start pulling away, he alters things to male them appear better to me? Like how, at first, he didn't have time for a relationship and now he asks me to remain single and faithful towards him until the end of Decemeber.

 

Control Freak attracts Control Freak, look. You're *both* trying to control fate, simply in slightly different ways.

 

Agreed.

 

You did? Interesting! This could be one for the Half-Git-Half-Numptie bowl because it could be his way of clueing you up about WHY he'd thought trying the player method seemed like a good idea at the time (but now less so). Who raised the topic of cheating specifically? And what theoretical reasons got submitted and by whom?

 

Well the topic was brought up by him when he told me about the couple and how she cheated on him. And that was what he said scared him about marriage, about giving your all to someone and them doing something like that to him. I told him that I wasn't concerned about myself being able to maintain a marriage, but him. There were times in our relationship where he would stay in contact as friends with girls he had been involved with. I always told him that I felt like it was bad news to do that because the reason relationships and marriages work, is because even though that temptation to cheat is out there, you don't put yourself in that situation. And finally, after not understanding my point while we were together, he said that it wasn't right that he maintained contact or allowed them to be flirty towards him. He hugged me and I said "we have to make it work" and he said "I don't want to make it work, I just want it to work".

 

He says marriage scares him because he sees people cheating all the time. Well my parents were divorced when I was 5 and my mom divorced again after she remarried. I'm a very faithful person. When I'm with someone, I'm in it 100%. I always do things to make the relationship fun and interesting. BUT I'm not sure what I can say or do anymore for him to realize that I won't do that to him.

 

Absolutely! So what have you considered would be your do-able deadline?

 

I haven't pin pointed anything. I've thought maybe after the first of the year to maybe February? What do you suggest?

 

*Had* you withdrawn, you'd have found out pretty quickly which of the three had been his agenda. Unfortunately, by having *stayed* instead, you could well be playing into the hands of his player agenda. Can I therefore suggest that you *don't* have any more sexual activity with him

 

Yes. When we spend time together, I don't feel like his intentions are sex. Typically we just lay together. And hopefully he meant what he said the other day when he said "I don't want you to think all I want is sex".

 

 

Wife? Not fiancee like you said on page 1? Why, Amanda, I do believe you're finally starting to trust me, LOL. (Doesn't mean we're engaged or anything, though, right? And definitely no tongues! LOL)

 

What do you mean?

 

Anyway, never mind that cos... I thought you two had put an embargo on all such future-commitment talks?... in your case to remove pressure and in his case to keep you slowed down? What's going on? Who started the topic? (Be honest, please - rubbish in=rubbish out.)

 

He did. I haven't brought up anything regarding a future. During our talk in the kitchen I did tell him that the reason I said the things I did was because I thought he wanted those things too, like moving in together. He said it was a nice thought but we weren't ready and if we did do it, it would be for the wrong reasons like financial security. That's when he said the things he did about seeing his engaged brother and how their relationship moved so quickly and that his brother hasn't be enable to do the things he wanted to do, like finish school. Plus he doesn't care much for his brothers fiancé.

 

Kind of odd, ABSOLUTELY! Commitmentphobic words trumped by major (lack of) incongruous action or what! This means unless the guy is actually an outright sociopath who would get you up the duff before scarpering off onto the next victim - it's good news, you can put this one in the Merely A Confused Numptie bowl! (Green list) (PS: I'll separate the Red bowl into the other two when I get more distinguishing data.)

 

why is this a green list item?

 

Tsk! Put this in the Numptie bowl as well, then. Cos, Amanda - that makes you a female anomaly in his eyes and as there's no such thing as far as he's aware of ('Women love yakking on the phone'), that must mean your mouth always said Love You but your actions said Love You *Not*.

 

Well what does he want to do? Attempt to present myself as the common woman? Change who I am? I'm not like most women. Im not a drama queen or a gold digger. I appreciate life and the good people I have in it. I'm selfless and will be others before me. I'm not sure what it is going to take for him to see and believe it.

 

I'm now beginning to suspect you're *both* scared but only he's the one admitting it! Is this why I've been coming to the logical conclusion that he's moreover a player? - because you've been giving me information that's biased courtesy of the fact it's been geared towards concealing your own fear of commitment? - your particular way of dealing with it being to rush and pressure the guy so that he fires *you* so that you're left looking like the innocent? - because you're super-woman in every other arena thus aren't comfortable admitting anything scares you???...hence why you've been moreover arguing all along with this particular conclusion picture despite it was you who handed me its jigsaw pieces in the first place???

 

My fear of commitment is wondering if I'll be enough for someone for the rest of their life. I do have insecurities and I'll wonder if I'm skinny enough, pretty enough, make them happy enough, etc. I see every day, in all aspects of life, people always taking and not giving and are always wanting more and not appreciating what they have.

 

Plus, my father was not in my life growing up but was there for my younger sister. This did affect my views on things. So it also bothers me to get married, have children, and then their father possibly leaving and causing my children to feel like I did when I was growing up.

 

So the early talk of commitment is, I guess, my way of making sure they see that for us??

 

But that doesn't keep me from wanting to get married.

[Amandacast57]

I am frustrated though. I hate thinking about it ALL the time. And sometimes I hate some of the things he admits to me. Like at dinner him telling me that he has been thinking about it a lot. I'm. I'm not sure if that is something I do or do not want to know.

 

And then there are times where he doesn't say anything to me. Like I haven't heard anything from him since I left his house yesterday. I know he was spending time with his family and I can't get mad because we aren't together.

 

Patience is something I don't have much of. I know he hasn't done much studying over break and he has exams coming up. I'm trying to just be nice, supportive and encouraging while he is finishing up this semester (even though I have no obligation to do so).

 

I just hate having times where I feel like I'm not good enough or the things I've done are. It good enough or make a difference.

[lalalollipops]

Hun you need to stop obsessing and overanalysing things, regardless of the reason behind his decision, he broke up with you so just let things go. You didn't date him for that long so in a way you're lucky he didn't drag things out and do the same thing after a year or two.

[Nattersmatter]

Lalalollipops,

 

I wouldn't worry about it. As you can probably gather, Amanda's a natural analyser/whittler who [1] would carry on doing so whether or *not* any of us were to assist her in it, meaning - may as well assist rather than disapprovingly abandon her to it, right? [2] Furthermore, I shall have to remember to pass your sentiment on to Einstein's ghost next time I see him (i.e. "Stop obsessing and over-analysing things!" - in his case, 30+ years'-worth as eventually got us all microwave ovens sat in our kitchens). In other words, it's not "OVER"-analysis unless you hit a brick wall that you can never progress over. With two highly analytical and logical brains on the job, I doubt very much we're going to become stuck. [3] More importantly, since Amanda is *not* going to go NC or Farewell Forever by any degree just because some might tell her to until they're Blue in the face, at least her having people here willing to help her order and discharge her overcrowded thoughts will help her to stay calm and focussed between now and her deadline of Jan/Feb. And - if success is genuinely there to be had - that will likely be the difference that makes ALL the difference. xoxo

 

 

 

Amanda,

 

My pointing out every single observation and what conclusions box I'm putting it into and why is making for some very confused posts, not least due to constant cross-purposes or what I can later tell were misunderstandings, so I'm going to restrict myself moreover to reporting what I believe the overall state of affair is at each given moment (in the assumption you'll trust my judgement over that, and keeping the lists compiled elsewhere), the exception being when I get what I suspect is a massive incoming sign or a certain critical quantum of smaller signs, as belongs to whichever side of the scales.

 

A few examples: Him having been the one to re-raise the topic of commitment; confiding specific fears with a genuine-sounding trigger incident (his footie friend's situation); and - another biggie, note - the fact that he's not merely saying he's not keeping you around for sex but *proving* it too (by mostly just lying there with you), all go into the bowls. (PS: furthermore, this bedroom development points to him being too depressed to feel in the mood; would you agree he seems slightly depressed and over-anxious?)

 

However - warning: you do have to watch that you don't slide into free-of-charge quasi-therapist role: if you allow him to demonstrate *too* much vulnerability in front of you and/or for too protracted a term, you'll more than likely find that once he's recovered in however many weeks/months, he won't be able to bear looking you in the face and seeing such a small and pathetic reflection shining back at him... which means you'll be dumped all over again, this time in favour of a woman with whom with no such unimpressive memories exist. So, with that in mind, don't suggest or offer any solutions, just make sympathetic noisees whilst enquiring whether anything(s) he can potentially do about it have occurred to him yet. In the same vein, you can certainly help to bolster his ego as well as cultivate more good behaviour by here and there subtly indicating how impressed you are with how he's endeavouring to deal with his commitment fears *on* the job, now.

 

Secret Mummy - e.g. nursing him after he vomited - is okay. In fact, it's good. It helps to drum into him that he's not an island and nor are you (as you say) the run-of-the-mill selfish wotsit, and, frankly, is just the decently caring, "traditionally/softly" feminine thing to do. And in fact, I'd say Fate had been smiling down on you at that point because it will have left a hugely positive impression on him. Whether a subsequent, competing sense of humiliation then kicked in - over you having seen him at his worst - as translated to him not texting you as soon as he might have - any such sense of dented pride won't last whereas said former impression most definitely will.

 

So, yeah, what with having read the rest of the new data as well as your most recent reportage, the scale bowls are shifting yet again and making things seem as if genuine intentions and positivity are taking over again at this precise juncture. I don't kid myself that I won't be getting some other bowl heading for a CLONK sooner or later, though. His two minds are themselves switching between Love Her/Love Her Not, and *not* in synch, either! We shall both be changing our takes on this more often than a pro changes her knickers, LOL.

 

...and then, of course, there's YOU with your OWN two minds(!) - despite you're more the merchant, meaning less so.

 

(Oh, what fun! LOL)

 

Basically, what you've got to ensure to do from here in on is keep injecting fun, fun and more fun into the proceedings whilst staying as chilled and Que Sera as you can manage (letting him lead as long as it doesn't pose as disrespectful to your own rights and needs), yet with that Jan/Feb deadline in mind to provide psychological relief for you. This includes not having kittens the minute he's late with making contact *unless* it goes over 3 days. And, likewise, keep letting him lead there as well.

 

There is still the risk factor, though, i.e. that it MIGHT end up a case of you having waited 2 months for nothing. But since you refuse to instate a total contact embargo, whether or not done nicely and sympathetically despite firmly to preserve the later-date bridge, then, you have to just accept that potential risk and not throw a resentful tantrum if it comes to fruition.

 

BTW - another biggie: he's brought his own end of December deadline *forward* - and by 10 whole days - because according to the interpretations of the Maya calendar (go Google), this year ends on the 21st.

 

(Wildly & Rapidly Swinging Ambiguity, anyone?

 

xoxo

 

PS: I'll tell you about the bizarre coincidence when things reach a more even keel for you. Don't let me forget.

[Amandacast57]

For one, I'm an over-analyzing person in general, not just when it comes to this. If this guy was saying these nice things, etc. but taking other girls out or telling me how he slept with someone and I still had hope and stuck around, then I can see how frustrating it would be for ENAers to tell me to move and when I'm still sitting her say "but wait!".

 

I'm the type of person that I want to not have regrets. What if I walked away when all he wanted was to know that I wouldn't treat him the way the others did. What if he just needs reassurance and faith that I love him for HIM? If come Jan/Feb no progress has been made, the. I can walk away knowing I tried and gave it my all.

 

 

 

Haha, I swear, it goes back and forth on the regular.

 

 

 

What is strange to me is that we talk about it, even though it was something he said scared him. Of course now, like I said, he refers to it as "his wife" instead of specifically referring to me as his would be wife (but that's normal, right?). But then to joke about how he would handle me if I was pregnant. He described how he would raise his children too. But even though we don't talk about commitment as a couple, it is still a conversation he is having with me.

 

Yes, not only does he make a point of telling me he doesn't just want sex, but I don't feel like when we spend time together that his purpose is just sex. He sent me a text in Tuesday saying how excited he was to snuggle with me, accompanied with "xoxo" and hearts and kiss faces. And, lol, not sure if this is good or bad, but (sorry may be TMI) he asked me Friday night if I'd sleep naked (something I never did) because he wanted to be close and hold me all night. However, this didn't happen because of his throw up episode. But our time together doesn't consist of him trying to getme in bed, it's holding hands, laying together, laughing, talking and joking.

 

And yes, I feel he is depressed and over anxious. He doesn't show it THAT much, but he really seems to be in a battle with himself.

 

 

 

I usually let him talk about the stuff on his own, rather than forcing him to. Like at dinner, he was the one who told me he had been thinking about it and he felt like he got scared (not sure if he thinks about it more while in contact with me or not). Sometimes I offer solutions, but it is mostly about a career like telling him how good LinkedIn is when it comes to networking or telling him I can read over his resume if necessary. But mostly we have conversations, which I like. I like that we can talk about our feelings. Like us talking about the girls that he kept in contact with when we were together. I like him being able to express his concerns of marriage. I don't know how open he was with his previous girlfriends but he does not seem like one who just talks about his feelings.

 

 

 

I think he did feel embarrassed at first that I was there when he was throwing up. He told me to give him a minute but sorry, I care about him and I'm going to play nurse and make sure he is ok. What kind of bia bia would I be if I just laid in bed and listened to him throwing up without offering any help? And he acted like no one had done that for him before. He expressed the next morning how nice it was of me to take care of him and he can't believe I was ok to stay in there with himwhile he threw up.

 

BUT, I still haven't heard anything for him since I left yesterday morning. I try to look past it. I won't lie and say I didnt do a drive by on the way back from my friends. He was home. I'm sure he is doing homework and catching up after not doing any school work all break and probably catching up on laundry, packing for his move, etc.

 

 

 

I hope the positive and genuine intentions stay.

 

 

 

Lol,what do you mean having kittens the minute he's late with making contact unless it goes over 3 days? But yes, I try to make all our interactions fun. I don't get on him if I don't hear from him right away and I try to be supportive as possible.

 

 

 

I think about this a lot, about giving my all and it not ending the way I want. But after giving my all, it is much easier to walk away.

 

 

 

Is this a good biggie or bad biggie?

 

 

 

I won't

 

 

 

Oh and speak of the devil. I had texted him at 3 today saying hi and asked what he was up to today. I was started to get irritated because I hadn't heard anything but he just texted me and said "screwing around on the computer, laundry, packing, made dinner, worked out and sitting down now I had my phone charging earlier. Sorry I didn't get back to you. Whatcha up to.".

 

And just said "what kind of week do you have? Lunch date maybe one day?".