Why would he do this?

[Nattersmatter]

Sorry - edit - just to make the distinctions crystal-clear:

 

"When I said watch your behaviour you KNOW it was in regards to you ensuring you did your womanly role and didn't do his. You KNOW that." ...But not doing the man's jobs is not the same as (like I also said before) being insensitive and inconsiderate of his wounds if unhealed wounds might indeed be his root problem. So you're supposed to combine an especially understanding, sensitive and tactful attitude (where his over-sensitivities and over-liability to constantly react (as well as inappropriately) are concerned) with all the rightful things you can do to encourage HIM to keep his hands on the steering wheel and gearstick and feet on the pedals (instead of letting him keep manipulating you into taking them off him or else you're "doing something wrong and you're a bad person who should feel ashamed and can 'take THAT!!!'" (NOT)).

 

Unfortunately, Amanda, by yet again having told him what he CAN do and COULD do and SHOULD be doing and how best to do it and when (despite you MEANT well), what you're by default saying is this: In your present form and situation, you're not good enough. And then when you TAKE the wheel - even at a moment where he's NOT trying to make or request you take it - this just supports that sentiment. He ends up feeling CRITICISED... because of course, when he WANTS to be helpless baby with you preemptive, over-proactive mummy, that's a different matter - it's a good thing (because it was his idea), but when he DOESN'T want to be helpless baby who has a preemptive, over-proactive mummy to do it for him yet you do try to do it for him, then suddenly you're wrong and bad and must be punished (*because* it wasn't his own idea).

 

And that's what you tried to convey when you said you were in a lose-lose situation, isn't it.

 

Unfortunately, people with damaged egos are veeery tricky to deal with whereby you don't end up upsetting them or peeing them off just by breathing(!!). You've got to know how... know when to do what, when not to do what, when to do nothing at all as a version of 'doing'... You've got to be very familiar with all the ways in which a damaged ego, along with its natural vacillating as it battles other more sensible and healthy sides of the person's psyche (e.g. the ebbs and flows of his confidence level as has him changing what he wants correspondingly arbitrarily) operates... it's rhythms, its severity, all known potential triggers, etc. OR you have got to be so highly attuned to that person that you can constantly make pre-adjustments in response to the most subtle of signals/symptoms, or know how to damage-limit effectively or with aplomb when you do miss any cue. Aka a mind-reader.

 

..."SUPER-HARD WORK".

 

The problem with a person who changes what he wants more times than he goes to the loo (frankly!), whom within each state of decision he switched to is constantly wobbling and reorientating, is, that - unable to steady himself, he wants THE WORLD AND EVERYTHING IN IT to start behaving to suit his ever-changing moods... so that he, by contrast, feels always like he's the still and steady one. Analogy: Lunchtime: I want mummy to feed me --> "Mummy feed me!" --> mummy fails to ---> "I hhhhate you!" --> topples mum's fave vase when next she's not looking. Supper: I want to feed myself --> mummy tries to feed him (because that's what he wanted earlier) --> "No, ME feed me!" --> feels insulted and resentful so topples mum's fave vase when next she's not looking.

 

Mummy should ask. Because he's only a baby with fluctuating ego (and babies think mum can read their mind to always automatically know what baby wants at any given moment).

Amanda *shouldn't* have to ask. Because Footie Boy IS NOT A BABY!

 

A man with an already delicate ego who's in "Today I *can* do it" mode, isn't going to take kindly to this criticism despite the 'day before' he spoke or acted in ways geared to downright encourage you to feel it both necessary and welcomed.

 

The best - and I do mean best - thing you can do, is leave him completely and utterly alone as will force him to have to reflect... to replay the tape until he spots what HE did wrong (failure to be the man and follow-up). And not least to spot that he has zero right whinging at you for not following up on your invitation (when it wasn't even your job to based on the fact if he hadn't liked you asking him out he could have said No there and then at the time instead of 'Possibly'), when failing to follow up on an invitation is the very thing he himself has just done! You wouldn't even have had to issue him an invitation in the first place had he done his job - been the invitations issuer - would you!...a job he has in myriad ways, not least outright vocally, not only INSISTED he wanted to keep - prime example being, "I asked him what that meant and he said "together but without the title"" - but insisted you not persevere with taking and keeping it away from him!

 

You can't whinge at your colleague for having stepped in to do one of the main tasks of your job if the task has to BE done and you yourself weren't doing it and when on top of this made pleading puppydog eyes at said colleague, can you. It's not reasonable.

 

...but then, I never met a DefCon-ed person yet who *was*.

 

You did TOO LITTLE wrong, Amanda. Even I would occasionally forget myself and get bossy/mumsie/advisie with my own boyfriend-now-husband. Boo-hoo, so WHAT! He would just turn around and politely ask if I would please NOT treat him like an idiot or jokingly ask, 'Are you lost for something of your own to do?' - bish, bash, bosh, SORTED! No drama, no fuss, just logical, sensible, fair-minded response. If you're ready for a proper, adult relationship, that's the type you should pick in the first place.

 

But until then and meanwhile, let's see what the more commonplace act of total deprivation (Zero Contact) possibly might do. Not just as some ploy but because YOU, FIRST AND FOREMOST, need it.... some beeping *peace* for a while! I imagine there will be more Xmas parties to go to, yes? For starters, you never know - you might meet Mr Better-By-Miles now that the 'Red engaged light above your head will be turning to Green' (which men can 'spot' really well), right?

 

Chin up, and then go out and have some well-earned *fun*.

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

...or (which is probably what you're doing), have a damn good cry followed by a bubblebath and then stuff your face with choccies and a good film.

 

Did mum also used to say, 'Things will look much better in the morning?'

 

xoxo

[lavenderdove]

As Freud has been quoted as saying, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. This may not be some kind of bigger drama playing out, rather your ex was probably confused because first you invited him out, then didn't bother to tell him when and where to meet, which is the norm for social interactions if a person issues an invite. So he most likely assumed you had changed your mind and were playing games/trying to manipulate him (which you were because you have been following all this him Tarzan/you Jane advice you've been getting trying to manipulate him into taking the lead). Then you get mad because he didn't read your mind and chase after you as NattersMatter said he would, and he gets mad because he feels jumped on unfairly about you being mad when you were the one doing the inviting and didn't follow up with him.

 

So i think this was a big misunderstanding AND this manipulation strategy being pitched to you isn't going to work on him, just irritate him.

 

My experience is things always turn out right in the end if you treat your partner with respect, consideration, kindness and NO manipulation. If he's the right guy, he'll respond to it, if he isn't, then you'll know he isn't because you two are not compatible and don't mesh well together.

 

Please don't fall too deeply into a morass that is full of gender stereotypes and admonitions that you need to sit on a pillow like a princess pulling his strings and waiting for him to respond in order to succeed. You need to be who you really are and not try to disguise that under all these manipulations or you will just confuse yourself AND him.

 

If you feel you genuinely need personal step-by-step coaching to improve a relationship or deal with any personal issues of your own, please get that from a licensed professional counselor who is educated and trained in the field rather than from someone who is trying to press you to conform with old fashioned gender based stereotypes that frankly don't hold sway so much in the modern world anymore. People can mean well, but a licensed counselor is someone who will give you proper advice if you feel you need in-depth guidance in either to repair your relationship with him or else move confidently and happily into future new relationships by leaving him behind and moving on.

[Michele15]

I think nanners gave some really great advice if u want him back.

Perheps the best way would just to come out honest and say what's on your mind but that doesn't seem to work with this man. Plus, he should be able to put some effort into seeing you also. A simple text saying hi when did you want to meet up would show some effort on his part. Let's not forget he had no trouble texting other girls.

You need to tell him want you want and if he doesn't want you, cut contact. This will be his huge loss and he will realize it. Sometimes we just want something because we can't have it

[Michele15]

Btw, I wish I would've had nanners giving me this advice. She seems to be honest and very smart and wise.

[Nattersmatter]

Perheps the best way would just to come out honest and say what's on your mind but that doesn't seem to work with this man....A simple text saying hi when did you want to meet up would show some effort on his part. Let's not forget he had no trouble texting other girls.

 

Exactly, Michele! As well as your kind compliments - *thank-you* for those timely reminders as also bring back to mind the fact that this man has been the one manipulating Amanda, every silly step of the way.

 

If it weren't for people being ignorant or forgetting that we humans *are* - *still* - *scientific (evo psychological) FACT* - operating on extremely primitive mental wiring when it comes to how men and women are deeply, unshakeably programmed when it comes to their expectations over how they act and react towards one another towards having a *healthy* relationship, especially during the wooing/chase or re-chase phase, we wouldn't have so many women wondering where "all the cowboys have gone", finding their men going sneakily, silently, and permanently AWOL on them around the third or so month, or, worse, married to the type of men who are so lacking in all sense of responsibility and initiative that they would "forget", for example, their own wife's birthday were it not for the fact she reminds (nags) him - despite there are bound to be some over-controlling women who like constantly having to wear the trousers and/or would wish to defend it rather than face the fact they settled for less than they should have, just because it's preferable to zero man.

 

Amanda knows (but thank-you again for the reminder) she *was* treating him with respect, kindness, consideration and no manipulation yet look where that got her just because she's a bit gung-ho and he's too underassertive and passive-aggressive to be capable of dealing with it in the normal, mature, sensible, *rational* ways. But, now, suddenly, his return to his usual cr*p is allegedly all mine and my advice's fault, doncha know. (Yeah, right.)

 

xoxo

[calichick007]

I don't want to offend Natters, but I agree with Lavender for the most part. Having to check in for guidance after each text, each call, each interaction, etc. seems exhausting. It shouldn't be this hard or require anywhere NEAR this much analysis, esp. after just a few months. You should be honeymooning at around 6 months, not analyzing this much and working SO hard at it. When it's right, anyway.

[Nattersmatter]

Cali, I know you don't want to offend. I can tell between someone who does or doesn't, no worries. And I know which parts you agree with.

 

...We KNOW it shouldn't be this hard work and that Amanda should be walking away by now. But she decided AGAINST everyone's advice to do so, even my own nearer the outset, which you saw for yourself. She - being used to making things out of very little to work with (thanks mum and dad! - wanted to TRY sorting it out through continued, hands-on involvement. She might have succeeded, like some *do*. Or she might think she WANTS marriage with a man who's far, far, far less pushy than herself (despite I wouldn't recommend it) and he might WELL through other confidence-boosters happening in his lifetime become less and LESS under-assertive and passive-aggressive. It happens.

 

Of COURSE she's going to meanwhile have to keep checking in for guidance; this more gender-natural conduct goes completely against her conditioned-in grain, which is WHY "five minutes" after advising her to cease telling him what to do or "asking/offering", she couldn't help herself ...started OFFERING (telling him) what was wrong with his place of work and ASKING (inviting) him out and, actually, strictly-speaking, ASKED, via the offering of an implied reason (housemates' family), if she could stay at his over the weekend. But I *mean*, couldn't help herself. Rome wasn't built in a day. That's NOT her fault, she's doing the best she can and it isn't an error biggie, anyway (or shouldn't be). She did beeping well, actually, considering.

 

We could conclude EITHER he wants to please and did in that instance yet 9 times out of 10 can't deliver when it comes to it, orrrr - which is my own suspicion having returned because I can see how it fits with the surface events (click-click-click-click-click!) - he has NOT ever ceased pursuing other women... hence wanting everything but the official title of Gf/Bf ("No, I don't have a girlfriend at the moment")... meaning (close your eyes and picture this)...

 

...at the point when he felt it suited him to respond favourably to both requests it was because he had no other options going. Suddenly, however, an option - another dating candidate - 'pops up' for those prime, commonly widely-expected dating days - Saturday and/or Sunday - (a development that obviously Amanda is totally unaware of from where she's sat).

 

Sh*te!...NOW what is he supposed to do?! He's responded to Amanda's cue by inviting her to spend the entire weekend at his house. Damnit!! He needs to cancel that. But HOW? If he cancels it, that is too unforgivable an action by far, given their recent climate... she'll likely dump him. There will go his conveniently cushy back-up woman!

 

AH-HAH!, thinks he... Knowing she's an over-responsible over-doer who feels GUILTY (like she was primed to be) if ever she doesn't do enough (of too much - including everyone else's duties (who are too busy arguing/recovering from arguing to do it themselves)), the remedy is simple: Place the male onus for being the go-getting one who makes contact to pursue onto her - this case, confirmation over the date still being on - despite as Michele points out, he's proven he has no such difficulties chasing-up when it suits him ("Hi, remember me?").

 

He doesn't even need to have informed her beforehand of that back-to-front expectation re being the confirmer. He knows someone else (thanks mum and dad! trained her to take that retrospective nonsense anyway...knows if a change in events demand it he just has to BLAME her in a tone to suggest he's upset, insulted and thereby sulky about it, and she will TAKE that blame. AND, of course, by being p*ssed off about it, he obviously doesn't feel like moving past it by saying something like [wait for it, waaaiiit fooor iiiiiit.....],

 

'Oh, well... I guess this was just a case of crossed purposes... Never mind, no harm done... Why don't you come over *now*?'.... like you do. Like you do especially when they don't live very far from you to begin with. Or 'I'm not really in the mood to go out now, obviously, but why don't you come over tomorrow as planned?'.

 

(Did you notice that was missing, Cali, like you, the only other person aside from myself (well done), noticed the Freudian Slip before?)

 

No, he couldn't POSSIBLY say that or else he'd have defeated his entire object for cancelling the entire weekend in favour of this other woman, old or new, whomever she may be. So the sulking act *remains*.

 

So, this way, it's not *him* who's cancelled for any nasty, underhanded, self-serving, selfish user reason, OH, NO!... *SHE* has MADE him have to cancel it! It's HER FAULT, not his! He hasn't done *annnnnnnnything* wrong, let ALONE something which she can **'fire' him over.

 

Seeing it, Cali? Cos I *definitely* am.

 

(If we do something again or again or in the one instance sustainedly, it's because it in some way serves us. FACT. It does *not* serve a man to keep sulking and hold onto his so-called resentment when he no longer has to courtesy of a clearing-up of a mere misunderstanding, and would, you'd think, gain (get his needs met) by ceasing it immediately. It *does* serve a man if he's getting his needs seen to 'elsewhere' but wants the woman to focus on herself and her "fault" thus her overall "faults" so that her focus will leave him in favour of introspection, and thereby not spot the crime he's attempting to hide behind his back.)

 

 

**So now we can get a jolly good idea about why he's having such problems at work, can't we. Oh....AYE! Cos this attitude is not just a lovelife one. An attitude that deep never is. It permeates and expresses manifestably throughout his every area of life.

 

...Flakey, flakey, flakey... doesn't do his job properly, is uncoopoerative or at best, on good days, inconsistent; passive-aggressively disrespectful; highly slippery and responsibility-avoiding/dodging; ...no team-playing attitude whatsoever.... yet "he din't do nuffink, everyone's just out to get him!".

 

Look again under that light:

 

He said the usual, that he was being mistreated by his boss.

 

Orrrr his boss(es) and colleagues have come to the end of their tether after nigh-on 3 years and are now no longer tolerating A THING?

 

I asked him if he could say anything and he said no, that he would be seen as a troublemaker and they would fire him.

 

That's what we have tribunals - the ultimate authority - for, INNIT, as makes us feel capable of complaining when we're in the right and purely being 'mistreated', INNIT! More like, he's already been skating on too-thin ice and if he has the cheek to complain about being rightfully ADMONISHED when he's guilty, that'd be the final straw!

 

So then the conversation went like this:

Me: I don't think it is fair that that is the type of work environment you are in.

 

That he has CREATED.

 

(By the way, you do realise Amanda SENSED the relevance of this conversation, right?... a string of details belonging to him personally that actually had too little to do with the actual topic thread at hand at that point?... hence WHY she went to the trouble to put it in, regardless?)

 

It doesn't matter your job title or how irreplaceable you are or not. You are still a person with feelings and you've worked hard for them for 2 years now. It shouldn't be that you speak to someone about your concerns and they say oh no, you're fired. That is not right "

 

Indeed - ref my above comment - it wouldn't be!

 

Him: 33 months

 

Me: Yes and that is long enough to have gained respect. They shouldn't treat you like that"

 

Yes, WHY?

 

Him: Oh well

 

Oh well???? ("I don't knoooow, mew-mew...")

 

Me: I know you said something about how it is a foot in the door but have you thought about considering other options?

 

Are they? - only a foot in the door? Wow, he really VALUES HIS JOB, doesn't he?! We know precisely how he behaves toward someone/something when they're not or no longer his first/ideal choice, don't we.

 

I know your company is pretty larger but if you can't ask for a raise, benefits, paid holidays, etc. then you aren't being allowed to succeed in your career. What about that position with that other company that is open"

 

Most employers aren't stupid. Most employers demonstrate approval at least in whatever way they truly CAN to ensure they don't ever lose one of their good employees, don't they.

 

Yeah, what ABOUT that other company position that's open, Footie Boy??

 

Him: I'll apply to that tonight. I swear, I promise Don't play until 10:15 so I'll have plenty of time.

 

Good luck having the daring to apply whilst your existing manager's insitu to anywhere that might ask for a REFERENCE, Mister Man!?

 

He swears. He promises. We know precisely what HIS vows and promises are worth, don't we.

 

Ahhhhhhh, PTHTHTHTH! We've seen enough. ...Save for these beauts which now get taken out of the Numptie side of the scale and back onto the Nasty Git side:

 

he was going to be poor for a little bit because he paying around 900 over the next week with the apartment and then 700 the week after that and that that doesn't even count the money he pays upfront for school for the spring semester.

 

More like, he's going to be poor because on TOP of those demands he is having to splash out on other women.

 

"you're the only person I'm sleeping with" and I said "yea, for now" and in a more stern voice he said "you're the only person I'm sleeping with".

 

Mm-mm-mmmmmm!... Look how uncharacteristically stern and masterful he can get when something *is* true!?

 

He's *not* "having sex with anyone else". Cos he hasn't *got* that far yet!

 

 

Sorry, Amanda. But there you have it. Obviously all those recent positive developments were concerted contrivances or were real only at that particular moment because you were the only candidate at the time. He's good. Certainly up against someone as under-experienced, nice and decent albeit control-freaky/over-responsible like you, he is.

 

If you, the woman, behave like the man, do the man's demonstrations FOR him (like being the date setter and/or confirmer like he's just another friend), how the hell she supposed to get to see through demonstrations what he's made of?!

 

You don't. Not unless you have eagle eyes that don't miss clues that lie elsewhere in other arenas that you can read the correct meaning into and report back in their 'raw' form so that even if you can't quite articulate in definite, readable fashion what you sense, someone else can, especially given yet another major act - this case, not salvaging the rest of the weekend despite the opportunity to do so was sat right in front of his nose.

 

That doesn't mean this other woman won't *cancel* on him, however, as has him contacting you again, pretending to have ceased sulking.

 

What are you going to do if he does?

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

PS: If the date with the other candidate was for yesterday (which it normally is in the intial dating stage), I'll bet you come some time today, Sunday - with just enough time still remaining - he'll have contacted her... having now "calmed down", and it'll have been, 'Come on over!' [cos the coast is clear again!].

 

I do so hope she didn't?

 

xoxo

[Michele15]

Maybe Amanda takes the role of the man because this guy is noit a man. I wonder after only five months if she wants him because it's an insult that this boy left her when she knows she way too for him. What you think, nanners?

[Nattersmatter]

Maybe Amanda takes the role of the man because this guy is noit a man. I wonder after only five months if she wants him because it's an insult that this boy left her when she knows she way too [good] for him. What you think, nanners?

 

Spot-on! That's exactly how this sort of thing works and precisely how he's encouraged or manipulated her to take his lead. We're responsive (intellect) and reactive (emotions) beings and that means BOTH partners input their reactions and responses, i.e. an ongoing, interdependent loop - 50/50 - and one where usually, the point whereat it occurs to you that the loop carries too much negativity, you'd need a time-machine to go back to spot who 'started it' despite both danced to that less than healthy tune.

 

Remember whenever your mum or dad would say, 'If you're going to behave like a baby/idiot/whatever, I'm going to keep *treating* you like one' or 'WHEN you behave like an adult, I'll treat you like one'? It's in actual fact a case of 50/50, they were as equally "to blame" as you... cos you can certainly make someone KEEP behaving like a baby - or in this case a man reacting like a woman - if you continually respond/react to them on the level they've set for themselves. But if he were to suddenly switch to behaving like a man, you would again follow suit and respond to him like one as well as automatically react more like a woman yourself. By the same token, if you, the man, were to behave like a woman but your female partner ignored that aspect and responded to you like you're a man, again, you would, in situation normal and assuming adequate emotional or mental health and strength, reactively rise to that. And that choice between reacting (not bothering to pause before you think and act) or responding (pausing to collect yourself before thinking and acting), in this sort of team situation, is standard human-to-human manipulation. Choosing whether responding or reacting is called for, however, is the difficult part.... like driving: hesitation can cause accidents but NOT hesitating can cause just as many... it depends on judging the precise situation correctly.

 

I call this dynamic Lofty and Shorty wherever two people aren't strictly equal. Shorty can stand on tiptoe and Lofty can stoop a bit, and there they meet more in the middle. It can be less comfortable than when either of them is operating on their own, not having to make that sort of compromise, but at least a slight discomfort that you can adapt to isn't as bad as being spiritually lonely. It's when Lofty refuses or doesn't have it in him/her to stoop a little that Shorty's feet, back and neck eventually suffer, or when Shorty refuses or doesn't have it in him/her to stand on tip-toe that Lofty gets a cricked back, neck and knees. And there, is the Master-Slave relationship that becomes painful for whichever party is having to make the most effort (and, even if they don't realise it at the time because of stupidly believing they've got "their way", uninspiring for the one who has barely any to make).

 

So it would matter very little if Amanda's cleverer/stronger than him if she AND he were compromising together. I know Amanda tried. What I suspect is Footie Boy did so only as a ploy (to warm her back up into false sense of security where she'll stay conveniently put), either as a long-term goal or because, as I said, there was no-one else on the horizon at the time.

 

The reason why Amanda's suffering this pain after "only" five months (although not for long because you can tell she's getting sick of it now) is - aside from having been trained from a very young age to find being the driver her comfort zone - due to the usual suspect: fear and dread of grief thus a need to avoid it....a case of whatever appears to be the lesser of two evils...this particular case, the greater pain being abrupt severence of attachment and chemistry. Yet that's only in the short-term. Short-term acute pain is better than long-term chronic pain that additionally indicates it will, 9 times out of 10, be followed by acute pain, anyway. Or not... it really does all depend on whether the individual has in it them to start bending/compromising or rising to the challenge, along with - most importantly - INTENTION so that they can *sustain and preserve* that effort.

 

It always, always boils down at the atomic level to intention.

 

xoxo

 

(LOL, Michele - you keep calling me nanners! Not that I mind - it makes me sound well cute.

[Amandacast57]

This may not be some kind of bigger drama playing out, rather your ex was probably confused because first you invited him out, then didn't bother to tell him when and where to meet, which is the norm for social interactions if a person issues an invite. So he most likely assumed you had changed your mind

 

So i think this was a big misunderstanding

 

I will say I have to agree with you on this. He SHOULD be asking me out on dates, which he has some, but I did do the inviting out with MY friends. When him and I talked, that was exactly what he said. When we talked, he said that he waited around for me to call and confirm. He said he felt that since I invited him out with my friends that I should have called. He was upset because he felt like I dissed him. And around 7pm, after he had not heard anything yet, he called the soccer place he refs at asked to be put on the schedule. He was genuinely upset and did feel dissed.

[Amandacast57]

So it would matter very little if Amanda's cleverer/stronger than him if she AND he were compromising together. I know Amanda tried. What I suspect is Footie Boy did so only as a ploy (to warm her back up into false sense of security where she'll stay conveniently put), either as a long-term goal or because, as I said, there was no-one else on the horizon at the time.

 

I don't know. Maybe my judgement is clouded but I feel like he has been doing MUCH better working things out and compromising than he did when we were in an actual relationship. Yes, there are things that he has done (like going off on me when I told him I was ill at him for not contacting me) but we were able to sit down and talk about it, which is much more effort than was made while we were together. So the story continues as:

 

I went to drop his things off because I was just so mad and over it. I had gotten him a Michigan hoodie that he had said he wanted as a Christmas present. When I got there and gave it to him he went and got my present...A UNC hoodie (funny we got each other the same gift).

 

I was so irritated with him for the way he reacted to my text. I felt like it was a huge misunderstanding where he felt like I was dissing him and I felt like he was dissing me. I started off by telling him that I don't like that he got so mad. His response was that he felt like I could have gone about my text message in a different manner, for example, saying "Hey, what's up? Why didn't I hear anything from you" instead of saying "I'm so ill with you right now". He told me how he felt, that if he had invited me out with his friends that he would have definitely sent a follow up text. But since I asked him on Tuesday and didn't say another word about it, he felt like I was, again, just dissing him. I apologized for doing that and told him that was not my intentions and he apologized for saying the things he did. I also asked him if he remembered telling me that I could stay with him this weekend. He said "Yes, but I figured you didn't want to when you dissed me last night. But you can stay with me tonight if you want".

 

And, of course, as usual, we talked more about "us". He said from his personal experience, girls moving in and sleeping with some guy in THEIR bed, etc. that he was sorry if he was weary and skeptical. Although he did make the comment that if it was me instead of those girls, that things would have been different (well duh, because I wouldn't have acted the way those girls did or cheated). He talked about his need to be able to provide and that that is why it is so important to him to take the steps needed to get his career and life in order. While we were talking, I felt a wave of emotions come over me and I started crying. I told him I felt like if I walked out the door and never spoke to him again, that it wouldn't matter. I think he felt bad that I was crying so he tried to make a joke and said "Well if you do that, I will be calling you over the summer to go paddle boarding with me. And I won't stop calling until you pick up". Lol, good effort but it didnt make me feel better so he got up, came over to me, pulled me in tight and said "If you walked out of my life and never talked to me again, I would be very upset".

 

He said some things about how he didn't think I'd be very happy if he moved me in and I took on his problems with him. I know we talked about some other things, but I don't remember exactly what was said.

 

Before I left, I told him that his brother's Facebook status almost made me cry. He posted about how, in exactly 6 months, he would be marrying the love of his life and how excited and happy he was". I said "I want someone to feel that way about me". He said "I do". And I said "No you don't. You don't even want to be with me". And I can't remember exactly what was said about that, but it was something along the lines of him wanting a future with me and wanting to marry me, just not right now. I hugged him bye to leave and he said "Are you still going to come back over later?" (He was reffing soccer games from 4-7pm and then had a game at 8). I said "yes" and left. He texted me around 7:50pm to let me know that he was about to play and would text me when he was done. I went to his house after the soccer game and stayed with him.

 

Sunday morning he got up to go play soccer, told me bye, walked outside and then walked right back in. He said he wasnt going to play because he left his shoes outside not knowing it was going to rain and they were soaked (lol). Again, we talked some more about "us". It was the same stuff about him feeling like he should really get to know someone and how he really likes me, etc etc. His brother came over because he had someone who was interested in buying the couch (They lived together and Wednesday is when my ex is moving into his new apartment). I got up and started to get my stuff to leave and my ex came over to me and said "What are you doing? You don't have to leave. We went upstairs and made coffee and his brother came upstairs to chit chat. He told my ex how this guy he knew is proposing to his girlfriend and of course, both of them (the engaged brother and my ex) joked about "Don't do it".

 

After his brother left, my ex asked me if I wanted to go to his parents house that night for dinner. I said yes. So he contacted his parents to confirm the time and I sat down to watch football while my ex messed with this art project he is doing (he has been making collages and what not to frame to put up in his new house). He said "After we go to my parents house, will you help me put this collage together?". I said "yes".

 

I left around 2:30pm to go home to take a shower. He called me around 3:45pm asking where I was and to come on because he wanted to go to Target (Funny, because I thought he had to be alone to go/do the things he wanted). I got back over there, we went to his parents house and played cards and ate dinner.

 

While at his parents house, first, his parents asked him what his plans were for New Years. He goes "Amanda and I are doing something, in fact, my friends are having an oyster roast, would you like to go?". I said "sure". Then he and his mom got on the subject of marriage, specifically his brother and fiance. He looked at me and said "plug your ears" and told his mom that it was hard for him to want to get married when he sees relationships like his brother's where he does not have any type of life separate from his fiance (They live and work together, plus are getting married). Then he talked about the couple he plays soccer with where the wife just left the husband for someone else. I responded and said "Your marriage is what you make of it. Your brother may be happy being bossed around by his fiance or letting her make all the decisions, etc. If you don't want a marriage like that, then you work to make it the marriage YOU want". And his mom chimed in and said "Marriage is hard work. Both people have to being able to work together".

 

We said our goodbyes and got in the car and headed home.

 

On the drive home, he looks at me and says "I know you have something to say, lol". I said "Like what?" and he said "I don't know. I just know you have something you want to say". And I said "Well, sometimes I don't want to say anything because I don't want you to feel pressured but I think we could have a great marriage. I think you are silly to think that just because other people have a type of relationship that you don't care much for, means that you have to have an identical relationship. You know me and know that I want a healthy relationship that consists of us having hobbies and friends and activities that we can do separate of each other". He said "I agree. I think you and I see eye to eye on things". We talked about broken marriages. I talked about my best friend who's husband recently told her he thought they should separate. They have been married for 6 years and have two 6 year old twin boys. I said that I think it is ridiculous that he hasn't suggested doing anything to make it work such as counseling. My ex agreed. He said that once you make those vows before God, it is your responsibility to do whatever possible to make the marriage work, not just bail when it gets hard. I told him that I too had fears of getting married. I told him that I know I could love one person for the rest of my life but I was scared that someone couldn't love me for the rest of their life that one day my husband could come home and tell me he met some younger and more beautiful girl and was leaving me.

 

We got home, had a sugar tooth, went to the store in our pajamas to get ice cream, came back, finished the football game and went to bed.

 

This morning he kissed me bye and told me that he had not made me any coffee since he was leaving much earlier than he normally does. I told him that was ok. He asked if I was cold and wanted a blanket before I left. I said no, I was fine and he left for work. He texted me about 7:30am to say good morning and make sure I was up and moving. He told me he was happy I had won the fantasy game (putting me in the championship game). We talked a little more about how he was so excited to move but was stressed at the same time. Then we talked about what we would do if we won the lottery, haha.

 

Oh and we made plans to cook dinner and watch a movie on Thursday. It was his suggestion since I told him that I would be out of town in Atlanta this weekend visiting my father for the holidays.

 

And I asked him about us spending Christmas together and he said that he really wasn't going to stay at his parents very long because, since Christmas is on a week day, he would have to work the next day and wouldn't be staying very long. Which I'm ok with. If I hadn't spent time with his family last night, I'd feel like he was trying to keep me a secret.

[lavenderdove]

Amanda, it sounds like things are going very well! You are both being very honest about your feelings and 'real' with each other, and he is involving you with his family, which is fabulous. Keep it up, and i think things will take a turn for the better. Just keep those lines of communication open and things will turn out right because you will both know what the other wants, where you stand, and where it is going.

 

btw, don't let the anxiety of what *might* happen rule you or your life (i.e., fear he will eventually meet someone younger etc.). We could all get hit by a bus tomorrow, but that is no reason not to live our lives and enjoy what we do have at the moment. Yes, that does happen to some people, but there are plenty of people celebrating 50 years together too, so no one has a crystal ball and can predict what will happen. Just try to live as fully and honestly as you can, and you will be fine.

[Nattersmatter]

He SHOULD be asking me out on dates, which he has some, but I did do the inviting out with MY friends. When him and I talked, that was exactly what he said. When we talked, he said that he waited around for me to call and confirm. He said he felt that since I invited him out with my friends that I should have called. He was upset because he felt like I dissed him. And around 7pm, after he had not heard anything yet, he called the soccer place he refs at asked to be put on the schedule. He was genuinely upset and did feel dissed.

 

You need to stop judging him by how YOU would feel when faced with the necessity of doing a follow-up to confirm. Despite women these days do it, they still deeper down know it's wrong, hence why they usually feel the need to make an excuse for doing so - for example, 'Someone rang five minutes ago - I wondered, was it you?', or sending a text in the mistaken belief that (as one woman put it) it doesn't count as a contact initiation. Look at the proof, Amanda - you DIDN'T follow up. You're quite capable of going against my advice in the belief you know better because you're in the situation yourself, because you've done it too many times before. Why not this time? Case closed.

 

Your average man has no such sense of "taboo" to get around. He is allowed to chase the woman (to the point of her taking out an INJUNCTION, in quite a few cases!). He KNOWS this but like I say, he ALSO knows how YOU see things, and this he uses as his tool. If you BELIEVE that contacting is an equal right, despite he knows it's his job (as he's demonstrated ref. Michele's pointing out), then you will be willing to take the blame if you aren't the one to do so. Because, ask yourself these questions:

 

1. BEING the one allowed - SINCE HUMAN RECORDS BEGAN - to chase/chase up, why when you hadn't called to firm up the arrangement, didn't he take the initiative and simply pick up the phone? Surely, that would be easier and simpler than sitting there like (as he'd have you believe) ruddy Violet Elizabeth, allegedly wondering and whittling? How was he to know you hadn't had some or other accident or locked yourself and your mobile out of your house/whatever?

2. Why didn't he set an arrival time for you there and then during the very conversation in which you dropped the hint about needing somewhere to go at the weekend? How logical, how normal, how wholly expected was that? Answer: 100%. So why didn't he? According to him it was the only proper and courteous thing to do!!!! - to wit

 

He told me how he felt, that if he had invited me out with his friends that he would have definitely sent a follow up text.

 

Amanda, open your eyes, for goodness' sake and spot the constant contradictions as reveal the pretense! You've clearly closed them again. If he had texted you at any point since he issued his invitation up until the point where you realised you were being left in the lurch and sent him that text (which could hardly have been called offensive in any way, ffs!), that action would naturally have prompted you to remember to mention the precise details of the meet-up on the Friday night! (Tell me it wouldn't have - go on?!) ... So he had the perfect excuse to phone you even if it WAS true he thought you held equal responsibility for solely Friday night! This is inarguable with.

 

SO WHY DIDN'T HE?

 

Answer: Because he knew he had to leave himself open to other, better options that were still likely to suddenly get established (dating site) or from whom a Yeay or Nay to Saturday night was still pending (someone from his 'little black cellphone book' like that last girl)!... which is precisely what happened and precisely why he used that confusion over who's da man as his excuse for having failed to do the logical, warranted thing when it came down to it.

 

 

He might WELL have been doing much better working things out and compromising - to a point! Of course he would! He needs to keep you feeling just secure enough so that you - his ever-constant back-up woman - won't leave him completely single. He's seen for HIMSELF what happens if he doesn't do quite enough by your standards, right?

 

Don't you know how much easier it is to cruise with a sense of security as keeps you giving off a chilled instead of desperate vibe? Don't you know how much more attractive a man who comes accross confident and secure is to women he's trying to chat up? Some women can SENSE the man isn't quite available and it turns them on, frankly... makes him seem more worth having (stolen fruit and all that). As aside from being his insurance against not having ANYONE to date, this sense of having someone around if he needs her to keep him capable of not appearing over-keen to others is what keeping you as a girlfriend-NOT-girlfriend does for him. For *him*!!! You? WHO CARES! Certainly not him! Because the BIGGER ACTIONS - refusing to give you the title and allowing YOUR confusion over who does the man's duties to enable his loathness to commit himself properly to you as a boyfriend and cater to his need to suddenly cancel on you - say so.

 

"Dissing him". PFFFFFF! And are you dissing him if you don't buy him chocolates and flowers?! Who does he think he's kidding! Oh, wait - you... and myriad other women who have no frame of masculine reference other than irresponsible, flakey wimps - some of whom are genuine wimps and some of whom just PRETEND to be as panders to these women's excuses and self-dupings that these men just can't help it, the poor wickle fings, cos they're not men, they're just hapless BABIES whom you have to share the HUNTING with and the WOOING AND CHASING with and ....wiping their baby behinds!.

 

 

Oh, lookie!...

 

But you can stay with me tonight if you want".

 

Just as I predicted! Why couldn't he have said that on Friday night?! What happened to Satur-DAY? Saturday night's hopeful fell through, did she? Not so helpless and inept when it SUITS him all over again, note, is he.

 

Plenty of people are weary and skeptical but they DON'T let it stop them from giving themselves and their partner the rightful title of Girlfriend and Boyfriend. Nor do they let it stop them from expecting weekends to be earmarked for one another. Nor if you did walk out on them would they wait UNTIL SUMMER to start chasing you again! Nor do they ensure that cases for SHOWING they have any real and long-term intentions towards you are always far enough off in the distance to ever be any threat to their ruse today ("Ta-morrow, ta-morrow, I luv ya, ta-morrow, you're alwaays a daaay a-waaaay"). ...Etcetera. Only players who don't want you enough to do it properly but don't mind the fact you're willing to hang around waiting to be used for their selfish convenience alone and somehow-contrived-or-other always with too little notice or at the last minute, do that.

 

 

"If you walked out of my life and never talked to me again, I would be very upset".

 

What - not DEVASTATED, not CRUSHED, not MY LIFE WOULD BE OVER? Course not. And who *wouldn't* be very upset that their cushy number as allows them total selfishness and a safeguard against being totally single and dateless had gone for a Burton.

 

He can *say* what the hell he likes. He can *do* any tiny, crumb-like thing he likes. But when it comes to the bigger actions that matter? Where are they? NOWHERE. They're dangled like a carrot but never actually delivered - again and again and again and again or they are "ta-morrow" (just not now, just not now, just not now).

 

Amanda, in order to know you want to eventually marry a woman, you have to love her. Not love what she does for you alone but what you do for EACH OTHER. *Love*. And when you are in genuine love with someone, YOU DON'T *HAVE* A CHOICE OVER WHETHER YOU SPEND EVERY AVAILABLE MOMENT GOING OR THAT YOU CAN *CREATE*, WITH HER. YOU *HAVE* TO! YOU ARE *POWERLESS* TO RESIST!! And you meanwhile simply *mutually tolerate and forgive* any baggage as makes your path that bit bumpier than it could otherwise be. You also find it HIGHLY difficult to keep your hands off them and not want to bonk like bunnies at every available opportunity. You make concrete plans for the future as include DETAILS, LOGISTICS. Your LOVER feels like the most important thing in the world to you.

 

Irrespective of whether there are any other women or just "things", he is not behaving like the person I've just described, is he.

 

He didn't not play football because he wanted to be with YOU and couldn't tear himself away, did he.

His brother did not come over to see he and YOU, did he.

He may well take the trouble to treat you like a girlfriend the minute the hopeful who was on the scene disappears from the scene again. It serves also to keep you hanging around by warming you up. But whenever he thinks he's about to score a date - SHOVE!... you get manipulated to the side again.

Meanwhile despite his 'yes but just not nows' he is quite happy to sit and tell (basically) you in front of witnesses that he doesn't want marriage (despite he merely went through the motions of appearing like he cared if you heard it).

 

Do you think my now-husband would have dared say anything remotely off-putting like that even in that situation and thereby have risked me turning around and saying, 'You obviously aren't sure you want a serious, meaningful relationship so, I'M OFF!'? PFFFFF. No way!

 

If you don't want a marriage like that, then you work to make it the marriage YOU want". And his mom chimed in and said "Marriage is hard work. Both people have to being able to work together".

 

His mum feels for you. She KNEW how he would take 'the marriage YOU want' as meaning what he and only he wanted and s*d you and what you want, hence she corrected you with, What you BOTH want and need. Cos she at least, knows what he's like.

 

I think you are silly to think that just because other people have a type of relationship that you don't care much for, means that you have to have an identical relationship. You know me and know that I want a healthy relationship that consists of us having hobbies and friends and activities that we can do separate of each other". He said "I agree.

 

His idea of what that means in application is very different from how you yourself see it.

 

Still, you'd nicely reassured *him* that you believe his mere words... HENCE!...

 

that he had not made me any coffee since he was leaving much earlier than he normally does

 

...even a SIMPLE demonstration of love gets dropped! Course it was - it was never done out of love, just cautious, self-serving, Amanda-duping *need* (which seemingly isn't quite so needed thanks to his contrived reassurance efforts). Tell him I said it's called, I got up slightly earlier knowing I'd have to leave earlier in order to make your coffee.

 

Course he can see you Thursday. Cos now he has the whole weekend to play with!

 

And I asked him about us spending Christmas together and he said that he really wasn't going to stay at his parents very long because, since Christmas is on a week day, he would have to work the next day and wouldn't be staying very long. Which I'm ok with. If I hadn't spent time with his family last night, I'd feel like he was trying to keep me a secret.

 

Nah. If you hadn't spent time with his family last night, you'd still be as bothered and suspicious as you should be over why he doesn't want you (this excuse/that excuse) to spend Christmas with him. CLEVER HIM, eh? - he stuffed you full with a crumb expanded by a lot of hot air so that he doesn't have to feed you the cake!

 

Here - why can't *you* not stay at his parents very long *with him*? Why can't *you* go on to wherever it is he'll be leaving his parents' house for??? Funny, that.

 

Speaking of coffee...?

 

You're still too easily played, Amanda. But apparently, if it's any consolation? - you're not the only one.

 

I'm sorry if it feels like I'm raining on your parade. But that's the problem: there *is* no parade... the emperor has no clothes!!

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

He LIKES you enough and FANCIES you enough but, he is not in love with you and therefore does not see a future with you; he sees the time being with you. And because of that, you and he ain't going ANYWHERE. *He* knows he's not in love with you. But you don't.

 

(copyright, all rights reserved, "Nattersmatter", 1984)

 

Whipping Boy

 

You're a brick wall that's sound on whom I can rebound

A strong link to rejoin my chain

So don't get all fiery if you look in my diary

And realise you can't find your name

 

Don't hang up your coat cos you got past the moat

Notice the curtains - still drawn

Though a light may be burning it's not *you* I'm yearning

(Quite frankly, you're making me yawn)

 

You stop me from crying and wailing and reeling

And sitting for hours on my own

But we're train-bound for Nowhere and when we pull in there, you'll be

Disembarking alone

 

So don't buy a ring and expect me to sing

You can *see* I still wear a White mark

You can't *stake* a claim on a boy with no shame

Who pretends it's not you in the dark

 

You're just someone tall, to catch me mid-fall

And unwittingly be my gap-stopper

But you'll *never* be mine, and though *s/he* did the crime -

It's *YOU* who will pay (good and proper)!

 

 

He is not a commitmentphobe because those past relationships that he most prized went splat or his fiancee cheated on him. His past relationships that he most prized went splat and his fiancee cheated on him in order to leave him BECAUSE HE IS A COMMITMENTPHOBE.

 

He knows it, I know it, Michele knows it, Cali knows it, his boss knows it, even his own mother knows it (which is why she wouldn't invest as much in him as she would into his brother when it comes to hard cash).

 

What do you want, Amanda? Mr Right or Mr Just Right Now? (or should I say, Mr *Not* Just Right Now?).

 

Until you get it straight in your head what you want, *you* ain't going anywhere.

 

What....do.... you... WANT?

 

xoxo

[Michele15]

Natters, sorry for the nanners. Auto spell on my phone.

 

I think Amanda needs to find out for herself. The best way to learn something of value is the hard way. She will come out of this just fine and it will be his loss.

 

My ex showed up where I was this weekend trying to throw bread crumbs. He was drunk and i had a few drinks too and saying he loved me and wanted me to come over to express he was sorry. Nothing more... I told him he could say sorry when he's sober, and it would not lead to anything more than him being sorry. Would have been nice to hear but I knew what he wanted. He wasn't sorry. I never heard a sorry when he was sober And I thought of this thread. I know if this had happened years ago I would have ran to his side. I thought of all the times he didn't text and I made excuses. Amanda will get fed up and kick him to the curb.

[Michele15]

I think it's wonderful tho that she has someone who can give her this advice and point things she might miss or don't want to see. I wish I would've of someone to talk with my ex and I probably wouldn't have wasted 6 yrs and wouldnt feel a little broken now . He was only my second relationship and I really believe he was confused and that he meant it when he said we would end up together...I had no clue what a fallback girl was and didn't think for a minute I could be one. I think it's good you point out.

 

This man might love her but he knows he can take her for granted. It's human nature.

[Nattersmatter]

Natters, sorry for the nanners. Auto spell on my phone.

 

Yes, I imagined that was the reason. But, no, actually, I quite like it; it's growing on me.

 

I think Amanda needs to find out for herself.

 

No, she knows what's what already deeper down, you can tell by the way she wrote her post. It's not a case of finding out, therefore... more like not catering to her need for short-term gratification and remembering to consider her longer term welfare... if she really *does* want a relationship that is headed ultimately for marriage, that is - hence my question, what does she want.

 

The best way to learn something of value is the hard way. She will come out of this just fine and it will be his loss.

 

Disagree, sorry. The best way is neither finding out the hard way nor the easy way but using one's intelligence and those resources that life has made available to you to when it comes to navigating yourself through/around life's obstacles with as least broken bones as possible, and do *both* methods... Balance. We are half-logical, half-emotional beings. We should respect that marriage of our two hemispheres and what it means, and make our choices to reflect that. And by 'resources', I mean whichever 'elders' of a 'tribe' who are prepared pass down their wisdom and guidance to the young and/or inexperienced so that they can achieve all that's open to them in life in the most efficient and self-potential-maximising way possible. It's called a sense of social responsibility... sharing your talents (this case, hyper-observance and hyper-sensitivity to behavioural patterns and their meaning), not charging for them if you've zero need to or standing by doing nothing as if they were given to you for your selfish benefit alone like aren't supposed to be cooperative, pack entities. And although you can ALLOW those who are younger and greener than you to make their own mistakes, that *doesn't* mean you don't (as you've quite rightly mentioned) stand by, mute, thinking, 'I'm alright, Jack!' rather than warn them of the pitfalls ahead (including, where one particular route is concerned, against going ahead or certainly going without better protection).

 

But I agree, in the final analysis, she'll eventually be fine whatever she does.

 

My ex showed up where I was this weekend trying to throw bread crumbs. He was drunk and i had a few drinks too and saying he loved me and wanted me to come over to express he was sorry. Nothing more... *I told him he could say sorry when he's sober, and it would not lead to anything more than him being sorry. Would have been nice to hear but I knew what he wanted. He wasn't sorry. *I never heard a sorry when he was sober And I thought of this thread. I know if this had happened years ago I would have ran to his side. I thought of all the times he didn't text and I made excuses. Amanda will get fed up and kick him to the curb.

 

* Nuff said! And we can ALL love anyone/everyone when we're drunk, can't we ("Ah, LLLUV you (hic!), Ah rilly, rilly djooo!!!"). But love is a *verb* before it's a noun.

 

This man might love her but he knows he can take her for granted. It's human nature

 

*Any* idiot can love you. And some versions of love make you ill. Your life duty is to find someone worth mating with - for the sake of the next generation and those that follow.

 

True, it is human nature...although to be technically correct it's actually base animal nature, and one of the attitudes that SHOULD have been cut out of us by now instead of all those we have cut out but should have left in. (Ach! Don't get me started, LOL.)

 

Weeeell, anyway... here endeth the philosophising about strife, the looniverse and every fink in it, LOL... Let's wait to see whether Amanda has become too sucked in and embroiled to see the woods for the trees or whether she's going to get out of his issues-based crosshairs or at least start to get tougher and put her foot down more...

 

xoxo

[Michele15]

I don't think this relationship will carry out much longer. Putting all the effort out gets old fast and some guy will come along and be a man.

[Nattersmatter]

Can't argue with that, Michele!

 

And when he does, she'll get the surprise, nay *delight* of her life. It's such a revelation, it's more like an epiphany followed by a rebirth!

 

xoxo