fighting about marriage -what to do??

[d346]

we've been dating for 3 years. -very much in love -well, so he says.

 

He is still not wanting to marry me. He keeps saying he's not ready, and freaks out. I get all the excuses. He has debt he wants to take care of, (he thinks all the marriages he's seen so far are not happy-this is a problem), and just isn't plain ready.

 

I am. I'm ready to have a bigger commitment to one another, purchase a home together, be a family... I want to spend my life with him!

 

He HAS told me, that yes, he wants to marry me in the future -but the more I push, the more defensive has has become...saying that I only want to get married, not necessarily to him, and why isn't our current committment enough, -why can't we enjoy one another?

 

I think he sees marriage as a negative thing. He swears he wants to marry me one day (I've told him to have enough respect for me to not lead me on), and when we're not fighting about it, he talks about what would be nice to do in the future... when I pressure him, he freaks out. we just had a fight and he had to walk away from it, because he was too stressed out. we havent' talked since last night. I'm pissed off, sad, indignant...full of emotion.

 

what do I do? Do I chill out, believe him and be patient? Or do I cut my losses now? Loved ones advise me that he should be lucky to marry me and if he doesn't see that, he never will, and I should move on. Maybe this is influencing me too much -and that is why I am pushing?

 

I love him with all my heart, and don't want to let him go. He seems to think it would be messed up for me to leave him, just because he's not producing a diamond.

 

But what about what I want, my pride, and what if I need to start all over? I'm 27...

 

I don't know what to do -and am very sad that it seems to be coming to this. He used to talk openly about marrying me. Now is freaking out.

[crizlee]

hi whats the point of marriage? you 2 will always love each other no matter what right? these days, marriage is bad and like 80% never work out. these days are too busy for marriage. dont rush things, live the moment.

[Scout]

First, let me say I do not think your loved ones are giving you very good advice. Basically, they are advocating you give him an ultimatum,and if you do that, you are going to be proving to your boyfriend that indeed it is marriage, not him, that is most important to you.

 

I believe that you both of you have equally valid concerns, but maybe different ideas of what marriage means. That is the key point here. I agre with him that there are a lot of bad marriages out there and the reason why is because both parties went in with different expectations.

 

What does marriage mean to you? A partnership in life growth, finances, career goals, and raising a family that is productive to society? If so, you want to make sure you have a partner that has similiar values and beliefs about each of those factors.

 

Are you sure you and your boyfriend have the same values? If so, explain to him that is why you want to marry him. Not for a diamond and not to become Bridezilla.

 

Encourage him to talk about his fears. Good communication is key to any marriage, so if you two continually break down on this subject, that is a bit of a cause for concern right there.

 

I also suggest you tell your boyfriend that picking a life partner is the biggest decision you have ever made, and not one you made lightly. Tell him that if you two both agree you want to live life together, that marriage is the ultimate celebration of that fact, and a commitment.

 

Keep the lines of communication open, but don't make this the sole thing you talk about. The key thing here is to lower his defense levels and get him talking so you can find out if he is truly the one you want to spend your life with. Ultimately, he has to want the same things you do, no matter how much you love each other, or a marriage is not a good idea.

[d346]

I'm torn, and confused. Maybe I'm expecting the fairy tale -the romantic proposal, the "I can't imagine my life without you. . .I can't wait to marry you". I think I deserve that.

 

we keep coming back to this argument, and i fear no matter how patient I am, it will always resurface. I can't help but get resentful. that is not good.

 

and it doesn't help that people are talking into my ear, and my friends are all getting engaged. i know, who cares...but it's hard, because again, I can't help but feel twinges of resentment.

 

I don't want to produce an ultimatum. I really don't. However I'm afraid of losing out in the end. and i'm torn, because I could cut him loose, and lose him, or I could eventually lose him and my dignity if he ends up never commiting.

[Scout]

What I'm hearing from you is you want the fairy tale proposal and to be at a place where your friends are. I think your boyfriend is hearing this, too, directly or maybe indirectly.

 

Marriage is not a fairy tale, and there is a lot of work that goes into it. A LOT. It is not the "happy ending" where life is just a bowl of cherries ever after. It is just the beginning of the biggest challenge you will ever face: joining two lives together that will make decisions on everything from finances, where to take vacations, how many children (if any) to have, where you will live, what you will watch on TV that night, when you will have sex, how you will have sex, when you will visit family members, which friends you will make and which friends you will keep...and on and on and on.

 

It's important that you understand this. I am not hearing from you that you are absolutely sure you and this man are very in tune with each other's values and beliefs, and will be ideal partners in marriage.

 

Your boyfriend has some real fears about entering this new phase with you, and because you feel you deserve a fairy tale is not a compelling reason for him to marry you.

 

It might be time for counseling, either on your own or together if he's open to going.

[d346]

maybe I do need counselling -maybe we do.

 

It's hard though. Yes, I am a romantic, but I'm also realistic. We've been together 3 years, and through alot. I have made many changes in my life for our relationship. He has a child, and I have embraced that, and although he is great, I have realized that a future together would involve sacrifices and things beyond my or our control. I am ready to face that, and already have a bit. I also have moved to his city, (because he doesn't feel right leaving his child), and now have even considered moving closer to his child, were we to live together (although it is further from my work, and friends and activities)

 

so I am considering many serious things -I do not take marriage lightly. But I ask where do you draw the line. If I begin to make these sacrifices I ask that he makes me part of his family. when does he start making sacrifices? We're in a battle right now, -almost like he wants to see me make these sacrifices, and then he'll know I'm serious about the both of them. -like why would I need a ring to want to be part of their lives. I disagee. I want a lifelong committment to one another first. we've almost gotten into a which comes first, chicken or egg argument.

[Scout]

Yes, exactly - you need to know where to draw the line. If he indeed wants you to make these sacrifices to prove that you're serious about a commitment, he needs to give something back to. I don't know if it's an engagement ring, but some kind of assurance that he is equally committed. These are exactly the types of issues that a good counselor can help you two sort out.

 

I think the time has come to talk to one. It sounds like you would be giving up part of your own life to join his, and those are exactly the things that happen when marriage occurs. Of course, it's easier when there is a solid commitment in place, and I think right now you're feeling you are giving up things without any definite promise from him that you two are going to be together permanently.

 

Is that right? My personal opinion is no, it's not. If I were in your shoes, I'd want some kind of commitment if I was going to have to see less of my friends and family, and participate less in activities that give me joy. I wouldn't do it without one, actually.

 

It sounds like you love this guy and his child very much. I don't think your situation is necessarily an uncommon one, and if you can talk to a counselor, perhaps you two can learn a way to communicate about this issue in a non-threatening, combative manner.

[Day_Walker]

This is a very common problem, if you want to spend your life with this guy and no one else then why would you want to force him into a decision?

That makes no kind of logical sense, ultimatums are horrible ways to solve problems and the success rate is very low. If you feelings are ginuine then what is actually accomplished with marriage besides a piece of paper? Be patient unless you just want to spend time looking for another guy out there they you could potential not love as much.

[Luciana]

I have a different advice to you:

Believe me, I was in your shoes until 2 weeks ago.

 

I dated this guy for 5 years and one year now living together. Always evading commitment. I grew into a resentful person. Inside I sometimes hated him for doing this to me. It is terrible. I knew I had to leave him but I was weak.

 

Three weeks ago it was too much. Our best friends who had been dating less than 2 years got engaged. He proposed to her romantically in a boat and gave her a Tiffany's one carat solitaire. She was showing off to us and telling us about their wedding next year. I was happy for her but I felt like running and hiding and crying. Than I knew I had had it. I was being humiliated in front of my family and friends by my BF.

So I told him I wanted to move out. This means downsizing my life and living in a small apartment. I was serious and he knew it.

 

I also waited for a good moment to have this final tallk with him (after hundreds of talks where he would clam up and be negative about marriage).

 

We had just come back from a trip to CA and were in a good mood.

I talked to him earnestly and calmly, without accusations. I told him why marriage is important to me and that I understood his position, that he is entitled not to want marriage.

 

But I had to go on with my life. I wanted to find a man who thinks like me (and there are many!).

 

Because of my nice attitude (without blaming or yelling), he said he didn't want to lose me, and agreed to marry me next May (we chose the month because of the nice weather).

I was prepared to leave though. You HAVE to. I showed him that we wanted different things from life and I wanted to keep my DIGNITY.

He knew he was going to lose me. So he overcame his fear of marriage.

 

I urge you to have a similar talk with your BF. In a nice, calm, loving way. SHow him you are ready to leave. Let him make his choice.

 

Don't give up on your wish to get married. It's your right. Don't be afraid of starting over. Some men know what they want and want marriage in one year or less.

PM me if you want to talk more.

[Mun]

Hi there,

I think part of you problem is that you started to give up "your " things to accommodate him and your relationship with him before he had become more committed to you. You then "expected" more from him and started pushing for it. This is a very common situation which could probably be avoided if we did not give more than we are receiving.

 

Your relationship doesn't sound like it's in a very healthy state right now (because of the bickering no doubt). I think you should work on this first. You should pull back a bit. Relax within the relationship. Remember why it is you want to marry this person, why they should want to marry you . Love him but do not center your whole life around him for awhile. Get out and do things with your friends and family. Take a vacation without him. It will be good for you and for HIM too.

 

Set a deadline for yourself of how much more time you are willing to wait for a proposal, but don't tell him about it. You have already waited 3 years, you are still young though (in my opinion). If he does not meet your deadline then you should talk about spending less time together and dating other people.

[OceanEyes]

This situation reminds me of one that I've been hearing about for the past year. I have a good male friend in his early 30's who has been dating this woman - a high-profile woman (on t.v. and models) - for about a year. He told me that in the first six months everything was incredible and he totally fell in love with her. Then she started pushing for marriage, wanted to start planning to have a family and a house ... you know, the same things we hear most of the time here.

 

My friend has told me that he would do practically anything for this woman. He frequently rearranges his schedule for her (which isn't easy because he's a doctor and travels all the time), has agreed to cohabitate first to see if they are compatible living together, and much more. But this hasn't been enough. She wants that ring on her finger and she wants it now. Because of this, he's told me that he can't relax around her and that he always feels obligated to give her things that he's just not ready to give - YET! He says that he wants to marry her someday, but that something inside of him simply isn't ready for that level of lifetime comittment just yet. Because of her pushing and ultimatums, he broke it off with her. He simply couldn't take her pressure anymore. He also told me that had she just been calm and went with the flow, that he probably would have proposed to her after the second year of being together. He took her constant criticism, bickering, nagging and expectations as a glimpse into the kind of wife she would be in 10 years. That was all it took for him to end it and leave it at that.

 

Ladies, although I can understand 100% how important it is to plan and know that your man is going to stick by you through thick and thin, it's simply impossible to force someone into marrying you. Even if you do, there is no guarantee that he really wants to and isn't just going through with it to make you happy. Pressuring someone (even if you do it nicely), will only create tension and resentment between you. A lifetime of it, so ask yourself if you should really keep picking at a man who is telling you that he isn't ready for marriage.

 

d346 - if your man is telling you that he has just seen and heard of too many unhappy marriages, then he is obviously scared that marriage will do the same to your relationship. Also, if his parents were the type to fight and abuse each other all the time, this could explain why he's reluctant to marry.

 

Also - why does everyone here keep referring to marriage as 'comittment'? If he's with you already, you do everything together, and he's a good and honourable man, then he's already made a comittment to you. A ring on your finger will not automatically mean that he's there to stay - the 30% + marriage failure/ divorce rate will explain that.

[Luciana]

Ocean Eyes, your perspective is correct. No one wants to be forced into something.

Just imagine if it were the other way around (rare), with your BF nagging you about marriage.

On the other hand, it seems that men and women have different timelines.

See: maybe for him waiting 6 years to propose is noting, and for her 2 years is enough. Imagine how in suspense she will be not knowing if she will be married to this guy or not? What if she planning in buying a house, should she buy it? Or should she wait? I mean, there is so much one can wait.

What is your solution if 8 years go by and the guy still lives in his apt., you two stil call each other BF/GF and your wrinkles are starting to get deeper?

[Luciana]

I also agree with Muneca. Give yourself a deadline and start becoming more active and spending less time with him. He will notice the change in you. The less clinging you seem, the more he will want you. Unfortunatley this is how men (and some women) operate.

 

I know it's hard but you have to do things by yourself.

I tried the solo vacation thing with my BF though but it didn't change a thing. He just wanted to maintain the status quo, living in his big house alone and seeing me on weekends for his pleasure.

[Mun]

He took her constant criticism, bickering, nagging and expectations as a glimpse into the kind of wife she would be in 10 years. That was all it took for him to end it and leave it at that.

 

I think OceanEyes hit a bull's eye with that statement. Ladies take note : This is exactly how a man will feel and what you will accomplish when you try to push him into a proposal when he doesn't want it.

 

If you are happy with the level of committment you have right now--and you are right once again Ocean eyes there are different kinds of committment--then there is no problem. Not everyone wants the same thing. If it's working for you then great!

 

The key here is ...How do you feel? Are you happy with the situation?

 

I know I said this in another post and I think I should mention it again. I think we women need to relax more and enjoy the relationship as it goes along. We need to just get to know the person we are with slowly--they might not be THE ONE. If they are then I think things will just fall into place very nicely at the right time--if you are not happy and you feel that time is passing you by then he might not be the right one. He may not want the same things you want and then maybe it is time to move on.

 

If I remember correctly the last time someone proposed to me I was doing just that-- Dating and having a good time--no expectations whatsoever.

[the_tiger_striped_cat]

Ok here's the possibilities:

 

1) You are the main problem. You need to give him more time. Like others have said, some women expect things to happen WAY too fast. (I don't know you, but 3 years seem to say that it's not you that's the problem.)

2) It's his problem. All women on here repeat after me, "

 

There are guys in this world who actually WANT to marry their girlfriends. Isn't this so weird? They want to spend their life with someone they love."

 

Now, whether this is the exception or the rule, you judge. But do you know how many times I hear, "We've been together for ____ years and he hasn't proposed." Your concerns are valid! How long should it take? Maybe it takes some guys more than three, But I always say that ON AVERAGE, AFTER A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME, the longer it takes a guy to marry the less he loves you. Now, I'm trying to think that over, but I think there is at least SOME amount of truth to that. I have some good friends of mine that are commitmentaphobes, and they may love their girls, but to what end? They obviously don't seem to love them enough to make this big commitment. And if it's so arbitrary whether you get married or not, if they really do love them then why won't they get married to make their girls happy?

 

3. You are uncompatable. Does he think it is a good thing that people get married? If he does then it's not number 3. But if he doesn't care about marriage and you do, then there is a real problem. Some people have terrible views of the institution of marriage. And maybe guys and girls that share this view can work out. But it's obviously you don't feel this way, so he better think that marrying you would be a good thing.

 

But what do you think is holding him back? Maybe I don't give him enough credit. But I hear it time and time again. He's in school, he wan'ts a better job, blah blah blah. Sometimes these are good excues, but more often than not the guy gets a great job and they STILL don't get married. The girls will start to make excuses for their men, and the only thing that is more serious than the man's commitment problems is the women's blindness when it comes to this. Often it's because this man is all the woman knows. She can't see herself with anyone else. But this isn't because he is such a great guy, it's because she fell in love with a man that can't love her like she deserves. She is so hooked on this guy that she can't leave him.

 

As you can see I'm sorta arguing for one side here. I still believe that some guys need more time than others, and some are more afraid than others. But I do believe that there are good guys and bad guys, and there are bad guys that seem like good guys, and there are guys that are bad for you because they will never be hopeless romantics. Would your guy EVER be described by a hopless romantic by someone other than you? (And I'm talking about the do-anything, movie romance here.) If so, then there is hope for you. If not, then you need to keep in the back of your mind that this man may never know how to love a women on that level.

 

But I'm being presumptious here. Maybe this is just a message to women in general, instead of you in particular. But I wish you luck.

[Chayann]

d346 - I just want to say that I know exactly how you feel and that it can be difficult. I too have been with my boyfriend for 3 years and still have no ring. And through the years I have seen friend after friend get engaged and married... and yes, I get jealous and impatient. But I know that we love each other. And I love him very much. I love him enough to wait until he is ready, because he will propose when he feels it is right. It really frustrates me sometimes! But... and this will sound really cheesy... love means having faith and trust. And it's not always easy.

 

Now I don't know your boyfriend or you, but if he says he wants to marry you in the future, and he's telling you he's not ready, then all you can do is wait for him. I think setting a mental deadline for yourself (not like, in two weeks or anything that soon) might be a good idea... maybe once he gets out of debt and becomes more stable with his finances he will feel a little bit more ready... it sucks that he hasn't seen a happy marriage but just keep being loving and patient with him and maybe he'll come around.

 

I should probably listen to my own advice! I'm itching to get hitched as well! LOL

[d346]

All of your replies/points have been good ones. Sometimes, I feel like if he doesn't want it now, he will keep making excuses. -and I get angry that he seems to be calling all the shots. Other times, I feel, I can wait -we're young, -why give up a good thing.

 

Point blank, he's told me he's not ready -financially (He has some debt to take care of, and although i suggested we do that as a team...(isn't that what marriage is all about?) He said he wanted to do it on his own) He even said he needs to grow up a little more, and doesn't seem to think we're that old. (he's 26, I'm 27) Well, as I approach my 30's I'm beginning to think about marriage and family, so I not only feel ready, but that I AM getting old!

 

So now what? ugh. A friend of mine, who's been MIA because a new boyfriend just IMed me to tell me that she thinks she's getting engaged soon to a boyfriend of 6 months. I have a pit in my stomach from the jealousy. I'm not jealous of the short duration (it seems a little soon, I aM a rational person...it could end up disasterous) -but here's this girl, who was single as could be for a few years, and now she's getting engaged. Yes, the grass is always greener, but I can't help but think despite our love for one another, maybe I'm with the wrong person. Maybe he's comfortable and has no need to get married. Will this ever change?

 

Sometimes I just want to tell him that I've waited long enough, and I won't sell myself short...but I would have to live with the consequences. I don't know if I'm prepared to do that.

[Luciana]

The Tiger, what an incredible wmail: you said it all!!

 

A man who is in love moves mountains to get married.

A man who is so so about his woman will postpone as much as he can.

 

Hey, it is so obvious! I am reading "Why men love bit**es" an even though it seems like a trashy advice book, written by a young woman who probably has no psychology degree, it does ring a bell.

 

Muneca had advertised it and now I know what she means. The less interested a woman is ina man, the more he wants to pursue her. When the woman is pushing for marriage and wants to see more of him, the guy pulls back. Men have several animal instincts.

 

I just wish I had read this book 6 years ago when I met him!!! if I had never pushed for marriage and seems pleased to see little of him I would probably be married by now!

I would even have lied and said I wasn't looking for anything serious!

But despite this game playing, I think if a man really falls in love he doesn't drag his feet.

[Luciana]

Dayann and D3, this frustration you are feeling is really awful, because I had it for years and still have it.

 

Even though my BF agreed to marry me, he hasn't really proposed and he shows no interest in the wedding planning and because it took him so long to agree with marriage, and knowing he wouldn't marry me if I didn't want it (he thinks living together is enough), I just don't feel happy. I guess things that don't come naturally (I had to fight too hard for it) just doens't makes us happy.

 

So, I now agree with the Rules and "Why men love B**es", even though I hate game playing. I think if you never show any interest in marriage, if you don't ask the guy to spend more time with you, if you try to do things without him all the time, he will want you more. I made the mistake of showing jealousy, asking to see him more, talking about commitment. I wish I hadn't and I would never repeat that mistake.

 

But, Dayan and D3, even though both of you are hanging on and not aksing for more commitment, you both have to A DEADLINE FOR YOURSELF. Do not tell him about it. Try to hide your frustration about it. MAybe criticize the institution of marriage once and a while and wedding ads. Show him you have NO interest in this..ha ha..that will make them wake up!!

As for the deadline, set one for yourself. You cannot wait forever. If he doens't propose until (month/year), just leave him. Plain leave him. If he wants you, he knows what he has to do.

[Mun]

Hi d346,

You know if I was a guy I would tell you that your boyfriend has a good head on his shoulders because he wants to get his finances in order before he thinks about settling down and getting married.

Truth is that even as a woman I can tell this guy is just not ready to get married. He told you he has a bit of growing up to do--he is probably right. You are going to have to accept that he just doesn't want to get married right now.

 

It may be that your friends' guy is at a place in his life where he is ready to get married. ( could be other reasons too but this is a possibility) He may be tired of the dating scene, all his friends are getting married, he feels his clock ticking... who knows?

 

If he is still your boyfriend then I think you should just concentrate on enjoying the relationship. Don't push the marriage issue anymore, it won't work anyway.

 

If you honestly want to get married and you are not happy with him anymore then you do need to set yourself a deadline--especially if you have been together for awhile. Don't tell him about it, this is only for you to know.

 

Think about yourself and what you want. He may be a wonderful man but if he doesn't want the same things as you then he may not be the right man for you. If you find that you are no longer happy in this relationship you might consider pulling away from him a bit and dating others.

[d346]

what does one do if he says "I don't understand what the rush is"

 

Yes, we're in our 20s but we've been dating over 3 years! I'm at a loss at this point. I'm not going to convince him to "rush (??!)" into marrying me!

 

we're obviously on different wavelengths here.

[Luciana]

D3, give us some update.

 

If he needs to put his finances in order, can he give you a timeframe?

 

Maybe if he says he would like to get married in one, 2 or 3 years you can wait.

 

But if he says nothing, you should start dating other men.

[d346]

Hmmm. I don't know if I could wait that long. I fear 2-3 more years of waiting I could harbor some serious resentment, thus poisoning the relationship.

 

I love him to death, but sometimes I think maybe I should look for someone who I don't have to wait for... who already has everything pulled together. As someone said on this board, you'd move mountains if you wanted to marry a girl. This is where we differ on opinion. He sees no"rush" or need to move mountains right now. And my RELATIVE patience is allowing this. (I say relative, since I do get moody and indignant about it from time to time)

 

I am in contact with a realtor. I am about to start looking to purchase my first house. I want nothing more than to do this with him (as a married or engaged couple), but of course, "he's not ready" I told him that I am doing this -he's supportive but he said "I guess you're not waiting for me". I really feel I can't anymore. I've been waiting for a year for him to pop the question, and there's still a disconnect as to when the future begins.

[Mun]

Hi d346,

Don't put your life on hold. Buy the house.. you can always sell it or rent it out if you buy one together... I'm serious about this.

 

I believe that when a man wants to marry you.. you just know.. there is no need to ask about it. He is firm and straight-forward about it--no guessing. When he is waffling and can't give you a straight answer, or he is buying time ...to me it feels like he hasn't yet decided that he ONLY wants you.

 

Do what is in your own best interest D346. If you stop yourself from doing the things that are important to you...you will start to push him to give you what you want because you are making sacrifices. He will then resent it because he is " not asking" you to stop your life for him...and on and on. It's just a bad cycle to get into, best to avoiod it all together by following your own plans.

[d346]

I agree. I'm just annoyed. I really never thought I'd have to go through this with him. He was so solid and open to marriage...until the past year (then again, until I actually began asking about the next step)

 

Yes, I am going to do these things for myself. I just wish we could do it together. It's disappointing that he is dragging his feet like this.