Just wondering.... about Ireland....

[AwdreeHpburn]

I realise there's no such things as absolutes so I definitely don't mean this as "everyone," etc. but, why does it seem that SOOO many people in America claim to be of Irish descent (something like 41 mil) when there were only 5 million immigrates. And why does it seem like those claims infuriate the Irish born?

 

My great-grand mother, born in Co Clare, immigrated to the states around 1900. My grandfather was born there, (In the US) as was my father. I don't claim to be Irish. Only of Irish descent. Which is true.

 

What I'm wondering is... is the bothersome thing - to those who get all bent out of shape over the American claims - the fact that they claim to be IRISH rather than just a descendant? Is it that they've never even been to Ireland, don't understand the culture or struggles yet claim to be right there with it? And why does it **Seem** that the anger is directed mostly at Americans making that claim?

 

I've heard so many times, "I don't care if your mother's great grandfather's cousin was born in Ireland, you're not Irish!"

 

The woman my dad grew up calling grandma, his dad's mother, spoke with an Irish accent and talked of her home country, Ireland. Does that make me Irish? Of course not, I wasn't born there, its not what my birth certificate lists me as, but obviously I have some Irish blood. Most Americans are descendants of Europeans. And its only been a few hundred years so how is it far fetched to be of Irish descent? From 1830 to 1914, almost 5 million Irish immigrated to the United States alone. In 1890 two of every five Irish-born people were living abroad.

 

My great grandmother came from a family of 13. THIRTEEN!! Only 5 of the kids immigrated to the states. One even returned to Ireland to visit her mum and whilst there fell in love, got married, and stayed. There are probably more of my "family" members over there than in the states. So I'm not of Irish birth and have never walked on Irish soil, but does that mean I can't claim my Irish heritage??

[Firiel]

I've always assumed that when people ask me "Oh, what are you?" (meaning nationality-wise) that when you reply "Irish" or "Swedish" that the fact that you are just a descendant is implied. Because, I mean, I know only a handful of people that were born overseas (places like Mexico and Canada are a little different)... and of those, they actually clarify when asked that question-- as in, "Oh, I'm Dutch... like, I was born overseas."

 

So maybe it's just a misunderstanding of the colloquial way we answer that question. I mean, in Europe, so many countries are so close to each other that it's a lot more common for someone to have parents of a different nationality, so it makes more sense that you wouldn't just say, "I'm Irish!" if your grandpa was Irish but your parents and you were born and raised in Scotland or something.

 

Blah, I started rambling. Anyway, my grandpa immigrated from Ireland, and I'm proud to have Irish heritage.

[AwdreeHpburn]

Thanks for the perspective. So you're only second gen American, Firiel?

[Firiel]

Umm... does second generation mean I was born to the immigrant or to the child of the immigrant? I'm the latter. My grandpa immigrated when he was just a kid, so my mom was born and raised here.

[AwdreeHpburn]

I see. Your mother would be the first generation to be born in the states then. So yeh, you'd be 2nd gen.... Is your grandfather still alive? Don't mean to sound insensitive... just wondering if you knew/know him well.

[Firiel]

No, it doesn't sound insensitive at all! I actually didn't know him well... we always lived very far apart. He just recently died, actually. I know quite a bit about him from my mom, though. Did you ever get to know your great-grandmother?

[Silverbirch]

I've had a discussion/almost argument with a group of Irish born people who live in Ireland about this very subject although I identified as Irish-Australian although I am actually Irish descended. After some discussion, I came to the concusion and pointed out to them, that Irish(descended)-Australian was a cultural group within it's own right. I'm incredibly proud of my Irish-born great grandmother who came to Australa on her own as a 16 year old orphan, lived in the outback and established herself as bush midwife. She and others like her were incredibly brave people. She was born in Monmore Co Carlo, and as Catholic records there were destroyed by fire, it's been difficult to establish some family lines. We all felt so proud of having such strong and brave ancestors. There were Irish descended people in the discussion, some from USA and others from Canada who had the same experience. The other aspect of that cultural group was that most of us, whilst descended had been educated by Irish-born catholic nuns (who were homesick, often reminiscing about Ireland) , and it was interesting to see the impact of this.

 

Another aspect for at least some Australians is the political context of this. There are people now, especially those who would identify as being republican in their views, that Australia was invaded by the English, that although there were many early Irish settlers here, the English used strategies to homogenise Austalian cutture as anglo, and this is an affront to many Irish and people of other cultural family origins.

 

Another point which came out of the discussion was that some of the Irish-born and people living in Ireland was that they felt an element of guilt because their ancestors had not been forced to leave Ireland. In my great grandmothers case, almost all of the people in Monmore died during the famine.

[AwdreeHpburn]

Firiel - No, I didn't. She died 9 years before I was born. My dad and all his siblings of course knew her and her sisters. We have photos of her mother even as well as the family home in Ireland. I hope to get there someday...

 

Silverbirch, I've just been reading about the "Assisted Immigration" by the British of the Irish to Australia. It's such a weird part of history, isn't it. But fascinating....

[OptomisticGirl]

I proudly claim my Irish heritage (even though it was my great- grandfather who moved from Ireland to here) - and who actually married a full blooded Cherokee Indian (nice mix!) The Irish populated SO much of this side of the country it isn't funny. There are streets in New York with families that came from ONLY Irish decent and here in the south, it's hard not to find someone with an Irish heritage. But I also know that before my great - grandfather the family actually came from England (makes sense since England ruled Ireland for a while there) and if I remember the family history when we were in England our last name was actually O'Shea, for some reason we changed it when we went from England to Ireland - but the last name I have now is very Irish/English. So sometimes I reply with 'I'm Irish/English'

 

My fiance is actually English (born and raised and lives there) and always having known my Irish/English I relate a lot more to his culture than my American one. and I'm moving there next year which is a HUGE dream come true for me because I have always loved England but I'm never going to be that far from Ireland.

[AwdreeHpburn]

I can fully relate, Opto-girl. Thx for posting!

[thejigsup]

In my part of the country, not many people claim to be of Irish descent. I have an Irish last name, butI have no actual Irish blood in me. My paternal grandfather was adopted. I am actually of German descent, both sets of grandparents were German.

[OptomisticGirl]

In my part of the country, not many people claim to be of Irish descent. I have an Irish last name, butI have no actual Irish blood in me. My paternal grandfather was adopted. I am actually of German descent, both sets of grandparents were German.

 

You get that sometimes here too. Someone with the last name McGee and they have like Swedish background. :s

[Silverbirch]

Hi Awdree and OG, I'm at risk of getting started on a subject I can become passionate about. Firstly, I want to say that in the context of Australian history, English is a word which should often be substituted with British aristocracy and the like. Everyday English people, especially the poor were horribly exploited by the Aristoocracy and their clan who were responsible for bringing the convicts here and other atrocities. Many of the convicts were poor English people, some children, and the real reason many were sent here was not because they were barbarians, but because the aristocracy wanted a free workforce to assist them in exploiting the natural resources of Australia. A few months ago, I visited Port Arthur Convict Settlement in Tasmania, and I could write a fair bit about that. It was an extremely humbling experience, and to see what they were put through. People with any shred of humanity or decency would not have been involved in bringing this about.

 

I believe also that in looking at Australian history, I might add, not the same homogenised version people in my baby boomer age group were brought up with, the the version of history which has not been anglicised could be interpreted as showing that in Australia, a war between Ireland and the English Aristocrats continued. (ie study the history of the Catholic church in Australia and Freemasonry) Different strategies, but a story nevertheless of one cultures dominance over others and exploitation to serve the already wealthy. The sort of people responsible for introducing foxes and rabbits into Australia so that they could continue to enjoy the blood sports they played back in England. What some Irish would refer to as "feckin eejits".

 

It's sad when you see that some people of Irish heritage think that the best thing of being Irish descended is enjoying the green beer on St Pat's day. These people clearly do not have enough knowledge of what it truly is to have Irish in you. ~Silverbirch beats her chest with her fist~ It's in here, whether it's about being "Irish"a or just a descended from survivors, having a deep passion for art and music and crafts and life. Some would say that is very romanticised. I don't know. I'm proud of my Irish ancestors, what they went through, what some survived and others were shot for. (Yes, ancestors were shot for refusing to give their horses to the invading English gentry).

[OptomisticGirl]

I use English because my fiance identifies with it more than British. He doesn't see himself as Brit per say (I think Brtiish implies all of the UK, Northern Ireland and Scotland and such) while English to him refers to someone born in England. I can't remember really but it made sense when he told me.

 

I agree that people sometimes get caught up in the whole 'Irish drinking green beer' thing. Honestly the reason I took up the flute in middle school was because my uncle use to play cds of flute music and it's just SO Irish sounding - and I wanted to recreate it. Thus, I play the flute. I also use to have a penny whistle my uncle bought back from one of his Ireland trips but I have no idea what happened to it.

[pippafruit]

Ok, I'm not American, or Irish, but Scottish. And I know very plenty of Americans who have not made this mistake, but I have encountered some Americans who have embarrassed themselves while going on about how they feel a "strong affinity" with me because I remind them of what they could have sounded like if their family had stayed in Ireland, when I have a very strong Scottish accent. I once had a random and out the blue message on my facebook from an American guy, who messaged me saying "Hey, I have a fascination with redheads from Ireland and I would like to get to know you." when my location is a city in Scotland.

 

These things didn't offend me or anything, but it looks like there is a real lack of knowledge sometimes when it comes to Irish culture and accent. ( I understand it may sound very similar outside the celtic world, but there is a massive difference to us and when people get them mixed up, we are like "...what!!! it's TOTALLLY different!! :S :S" )

 

I think if anyone feels a strong connection to their ancestral country, and wishes to meet people from there, talk about their heritage, be inspired by their culture, exchange stories and timelines, and feel truly connected to their origins, they should learn things about that country before they claim that nationality.

[OptomisticGirl]

How do you that an Irish accent and a Scottish one mixed up?!?! I can spot a scottish accent from an english one - and you can even tel the difference between someone from the north of England with a thick accent and someone from the south with not as thick of an accent (like my fiance). Although we have noticed when he is speaking to another Englishman or I'm speaking to another American, our accents get thicker. No lie. When my fiaqnce met my best friend after we had left he turns to me and goes, "We have been together 8 months and I have a Southern translator in my head at all times but when you and her were talking, I had no clue what you were saying your accent was SO thick."

[pippafruit]

Yeah that is true, I feel like I have to soften my accent to non-scots to prevent that glazed-eye "nod-and-smile" look. Perhaps it's harder for Americans who have only been exposed to Irish or scots in film in the media, to see the differences we see. The Scottish news readers soften their accents so much, pushing it a little towards Irish actually.

 

I always though that because of the massive amount of American English we hear on TV, in movies and in music that it is more likely to find Americans unable to understand other English dialects, and not the other way around. I guess not personally I find the diversity in the accents among English so fascinating, you can hear traces of that nations ancestry in their language.!

 

It is only natural that a nation like America which is basically a nation of immigrants should feel a tie with their European ancestry, it seems like a lot of Americans are really passionate about their heritage and ancestry. It sometimes seems like people here are totally ambivalent, there is Scandinavian in my family, Icelandic specifically, (I suppose it's to be expected in Scotland really) my family are like "meh" but when I found out i was like "what?? that is so coool!!!! aagghh XD"

[OptomisticGirl]

lol, L"s accent gets in the way sometimes. He'll say something fast and excited and I"ll be like 'yeah, didn't understand that, your accent got in the way.' Mine does too apparently.

 

That's very true, and it's something L himself admits. He is very proud to be English of course but compared to how patriotic I am on a daily bases, he isn't. It really amazed him how many flags we had around New York (were we met) and that our patriotism plays a large part in who we are. The royal wedding def. bought out his patriotism - even though the only reason he watched it was because I made him, lol - but even I as a future Englishwoman (I plan on taking British citzenship) was super proud that day. But yeah, it plays a large roll in how people view their family if you aren't super, super patritoic vs. proud of your country but you aren't toating the flag every were.

[civilservant]

The British aren't as flag waving and chest thumping as you Americans, we're far more restrained on the whole

 

Although I wrote a whole post on the state of the United Kingdom and the way it\s beginning to fracture along country lines, before realizing it's far too political for ENA.....

[Seraphim]

I don't think that when people say they are whatever ethnicity that they mean they are ACTUALLY from that country themselves. I am half English but I do not say I am FROM England, know what I mean? On my dad's side I am a second generation Canadian and on my mother's side I am like a 14 th generation Canadian or something like that. I claim my mother's heritage as well but I do not actually say I am from........ For almost everyone I know it is just claiming their ethnicity. My in-laws are from England born and raised but they left when they were about 30. Even being born in England his mother is part Scottish and part Irish and English. His dad is English. Now, however they consider themselves to be proud Canadians. My son is a bit of a mutt, he has English and Irish and Scottish and French( as I am half English and half French).

[OptomisticGirl]

Exactly. When people ask me were I'm from I say 'I'm American but I have Irish/English roots'. Or if they were to specifically ask me were my family is from, my first response would be 'Ireland/Engalnd' which I can see how it would come accross as me saying my family (ie parents and such) were from that.

[Seraphim]

^Yes, when people ask me where I am from I say I am Canadian, but my ethnicity is French Canadien( in the French way) and English. I however do not associate myself with France even though that is where my mother's family is originally from. French Canadians are a distinct group culturally and linguistically. To be more specific I am Acadian, and they are not associated with Quebec, but are yet another distinct linguistic group. So, I say, I am Canadian, but my ethnicity IS.... if this is what you are asking. What is even more funny is people think I look Italian.(not that there is anything wrong with being Italian but I am French