Am I jumping to onclusions?

[generaldiscord]

The reason I defend the wife is the following. When you suspect anything, you can gather loads of circumstantial evidence, some more compelling than others. Perfectly normal behavior becomes suspect under these conditions. Its good to know what's going on, but it's not healthy to a relationship to expect that your partner will always tell the exact truth every time with no mistakes (otherwise s/he's LYING!).

 

The evidence really isn't strong. Why did she lie? Maybe she didn't look at the clock before she went to the ATM. Maybe there is a longer story which she just thought was too boring to tell. Maybe she felt antagonized and didn't want to admit she was lying. But I can't for the life of me think of how it would prove that she was cheating.

 

I think that we owe it to ourselves to be as loyal to our partners as possible. Believe the best in them, support them, make sure they know you love them, pay attention to what they want and need. And O.P., if you really suspect she's cheating on you, and you can't get that thought out of your mind, don't put any more strain on yourself or her. Lay the cards on the table calmly and clearly. Ask her why she doesn't want to be clear with you. If it doesn't work out, that's that. But hope that it does!

[annie24]

The evidence really isn't strong. Why did she lie? Maybe she didn't look at the clock before she went to the ATM. Maybe there is a longer story which she just thought was too boring to tell. Maybe she felt antagonized and didn't want to admit she was lying. But I can't for the life of me think of how it would prove that she was cheating.

 

i don't think it's that the story was boring to tell. i'm also wondering why the story changed 8 months later.... it doesn't sit well with me. now maybe i am overanalyzing - but i think she is a bad liar. putting in all these unnecessary numbers...... what i mean is, if her husband called her to say good morning while on the road, why didn't she just say, "i'm going to the mall today after work". instead, she tells precise times, that are later contradicted by an ATM reciept, that she later comes up with a different story about. that's what bugs me. i think she's not a great liar. i think a better liar would have covered their tracks better.

 

David Lieberman has a great book, "Never be lied to again."

 

link removed

 

i highly recommend this book and the tips it has to uncover the truth.

[theartofruin]

Yeah I'm in the minority here but I think something is up with your wife. Not necessarily cheating, but her stories don't add up.

 

When I was first reading the ATM anecdote I was just thinking wow, OP is just jealous and paranoid and just because the time on the receipt is a little off is no big deal. But the wife's reaction completely threw me off. A simple "Oh I guess I got the time wrong" or "Okay, my mistake" and that'd be that. But she lied about it for eight months, before finally admitting her husband was right?!? That's just weird.

 

Secondly, the condom thing: the only explanation to me that makes sense is she had a box of condoms in her purse, opened them, (used them), threw it all out but forgot the instruction book (I mean it's just a tiny white pamphlet right, you probably wouldn't even notice it was for condoms unless you read it). The kid putting it in there makes no sense. Drunkenly dancing with some guy at a party, then having to lock herself in the toilet? I'd love to know what happened there, because right now the only reason I can think she did that is it got too hot & inappropriate...

 

I wouldn't say your wife is cheating or has cheated, but the signs are there that she could very well be unfaithful in the future. Something about her actions doesn't add up. I'd keep my eyes open, and maybe not accuse her after every little thing - take note, play dumb, and see if the evidence starts to come together. If it doesn't, which I hope, then eventually you can just let go and forget about all this.

[Mauxly]

DN and anyone else who's ever read a thread of mine should know that I'm a huge advocate of trusting your gut, not tolerate lying, and not quelling any ideas about cheating because if your gut is telling you something, something is usually up. But in this instance I'm going to break from that and argue vehemently that the wife isn't lying. The ATM time discrepancy is ridiculous. 45 minutes? Really? Can you all say that you know exactly what you are doing and when every moment of the day? I can't. I won't be able to tell you tomorrow exactly where I was at any moment of the day. I'm flighty like that. But I'm very trustworthy. So she copped to the 'lie'...he'd been harping on it for 8 MONTHS!!! She probably just gave up and said, "OK honey...whatever you say."

 

The condom thing. Who would save INSTRUCTIONS for a condom? Who doesn't know how to use those already? Save an empty box? It isn't even an empty box, it was the instructions. And yep, I'm also one of those women who live out of her purse and don't change them out hardly ever. I've found stuff at the bottom of my purse that I'd been looking for for months. She emptied the purse out in front of him. She wasn't trying to hide a thing.

 

The dancing with co-workers. At this point he's been so paranoid that she's probably afraid of a huge argument. She didn't deny dancing with someone, she simply wouldn't tell him who (is there a possibility that he'd go to her workplace and cause drama?).

 

Locking herself in the bathroom. No one in their right mind would fool around with someone at a work function. If he suspects for a moment that this is a possibility, they've got bigger issues than infidelity, she's a lunatic. I don't think this is the case. Maybe she was sick, or needed a break. I'll sequester myself away sometimes at functions if I need a break.

 

This couple has issues. They are deeper than thoughts of infidelity. His gut is screaming at him because they've lost their connection somehow. If he keeps accusing her of cheating, he's going to push her farther away.

 

He needs to listen to his gut and take action. But I think he's on the wrong path.

[DN]

The condom thing. Who would save INSTRUCTIONS for a condom? Who doesn't know how to use those already? Save an empty box? It isn't even an empty box, it was the instructions. And yep, I'm also one of those women who live out of her purse and don't change them out hardly ever. I've found stuff at the bottom of my purse that I'd been looking for for months. She emptied the purse out in front of him. She wasn't trying to hide a thing.

Unless she simply forgot it was in there - cheaters are like criminals, they get caught because they get careless.

 

And the length of time it was in there is immaterial other than lending credence to her forgetting about them.

 

The only other explanation for the presence of the instructions is that the four year old went to her drawer, opened the box, withdrew the instructions, replaced the box in the drawer, closed the drawer, found her purse, opened it, placed the instructions in am inconspicuous place within, closed the purse, and said nothing.

 

Which theory (forgetting vs four year old) is really more credible?

[annie24]

My other suspicion - and OP, tell me if i am mistaken - If you guys are well off-enough to have a maid, she probably has at least 20 purses, that she changes out all the time, a different one for each occasion. So I don't buy that this is something that she hasn't noticed.

[Mauxly]

Annie, I make enough money for a closet full of purses. I've got my favorites and they become like Narnia over time. You never know what you will find in there.

 

The OP needs to address the root of this issue. He doesn't trust her. I don't think it is so much as 'evidence' the decline had to have come prior to that.

 

In my last relationship my ex was a cheater. But my biggest red flag came WAY before the cheating behavior. He'd stopped respecting me. He was distant, cruel, unloving and critical. My gut was screaming bloody murder before any cheating ever happened. I should have left him then and saved myself from suffering through an infidelity.

 

In my new relationship my boyfriend is open, loving and we truly feel like a team. I have zero desire to account for his whereabouts, or to question anything he does. My gut is calm, peaceful.

 

My point is, the OPs post points to a deeper issue. I still stand by my assertion that none of these things point to cheating. However, there is something very wrong with the relationship that needs to be addressed ASAP.

[DN]

If I found anything to do with condoms in a partner's purse and knew that it didn't relate to me - I would certainly believe that was huge red flag about cheating and would investigate further. Same with lies. I find it somewhat bizarre that the OP is somehow being blamed for his concerns. It is not unknown for spouses to cheat, women included.

[Mauxly]

If I found anything to do with condoms in a partner's purse and knew that it didn't relate to me - I would certainly believe that was huge red flag about cheating and would investigate further. Same with lies. I find it somewhat bizarre that the OP is somehow being blamed for his concerns. It is not unknown for spouses to cheat, women included.

 

I guess the biggest question is, do they have a drawer with condoms in it? Do you have kids? You do know that they get into everything.

 

I'm not blaming the OP for his concerns. I am worried that he's searching for evidence, and when you search you find, whether it's really there or not. I'm encouraging him to look deeper. The red flags he's physically seeing may or may not point to cheating. But the true test is the overall health of the relationship. He should address that before he sends himself over the deep end.

[DN]

I have two kids and two grandkids - so I am well aware of what kids can do. But the coincidence factor is huge - way too much to allay suspicions. To accept that story without doubts would be the sort of thinking that leads people to invest in swampland real-estate or give personal banking details to people from other countries who send e-mails promising to deposit large sums of money in the bank account. There is a big difference between trust and gullibility.

[diamond78]

When I was first reading the OP's post, all I thought was how paranoid he was....3/4 of what has happened appears to be paranoia to me.

 

However, the condom instructions and the excuse for their location in the purse would definitely raise my eyebrows and lead me to investigate further. The first I would have done was check the box of condoms that are in the bedroom and see if the instructions are missing and if they belong to the same brand. I definitely wouldn't just let that one go without thought or further inquiry. I think it's a valid reason to be concerned.

[Brownstone322]

I guess the biggest question is, do they have a drawer with condoms in it? Do you have kids? You do know that they get into everything.

I thought of that too. That particular suspicion would have made a stronger impression on me had they usually not kept condoms in the house at all. (Like the urban legend of "condoms jamming up the septic tank.") Or maybe even if the brand was wrong. But assuming they did keep condoms in the house to begin with, that evidence is not especially compelling.

 

I'm not blaming the OP for his concerns. I am worried that he's searching for evidence, and when you search you find, whether it's really there or not. I'm encouraging him to look deeper. The red flags he's physically seeing may or may not point to cheating. But the true test is the overall health of the relationship. He should address that before he sends himself over the deep end.

As someone who was (more than once) accused by an ex who presented misinterpreted "evidence," I know firsthand what an overactive imagination can produce -- if you're looking for it, you will always find it. And I also know how much damage false accusations can have on a relationship. One gets his facts in order before making accusations such as these.

 

What's more (and this is a point that frequently gets lost in this forum), everything presented to us here is necessarily skewed by a particular viewpoint -- that of the suspicious mind. So what we have is analogous to evidence presented to a grand jury, not one shred of which is subject to cross examination or alternative explanation by the accused. Then keep in mind that a grand jury's only role is to determine if the one-sided evidence rises to the level of a formal indictment; it doesn't pass judgment on guilt.

 

In this case, I'd say he doesn't have enough to "indict" (meaning to accuse), certainly not yet. Others, apparently, set the bar pretty low, which can have unwanted ramifications of its own.

[DN]

He may not have enough to accuse - but he certainly has enough to want better answers than he is getting and to remain suspicious.

 

Cheating is so prevalent that to ignore signs that a spouse may be cheating is not wise. Nor is it fair to accuse someone of being controlling or paranoid when such obvious causes for concerns are being raised.

[wildchild1]

I think this is a case of Occam's Razor when it comes to the condoms. I think it far easier to believe that they were forgotten in there. Which in turn should raise his awareness level. It is in his best interest, especially when taken into account that with infidelity, comes health risks.

[Silvergalaxy]

These are very good points and I completely agree with the bolded parts.

 

As for the unfairness of accusing the OP of paranoia, we all come to this forum with different experiences which are going to shape our opinions. I have never cheated in my life but I have suffered from a paranoid partner who would find something suspicious even about the most trivial situations. I'd try to reassure him and patiently give him explanations but at some point it became so ridiculous that I got tired of it. It seemed like he was always trying to "catch" me and prove himself right. So I can't say I never lied to him because by then it was easier to change the story a bit than to go through a half hour interrogation accounting for my every move and to be faced with suspicion. It was exhausting and ruined many evenings.

 

Incidentally, it turned out the reason he was so paranoid was because he had something to hide.

 

Again, not saying the wife is not cheating, but it seems like the OP is reaching in his conclusions. Especially if, like he claims, this is an 8 year marriage with no other problems.

[DN]

The OP hasn't reached anything in his conclusions that is why he is asking for advice.

 

But I really don't think that lying or finding condom instructions in her purse to be trivial issues. But then people have different ideas of what constitutes untrustworthiness.

[annie24]

Now, let's go back to this part. His wife and her sister go to an office party. They get drunk (maybe??) - dance with some guys, and *something* happens and the wife has to lock herself int the bathroom. When the OP asks for clarification - her actual 'response' was to go through her purse and then the condom instructions fell out...!!!

 

now, there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation for this - maybe she locked herself in the bathroom because she drank too much, started throwing up and felt embarrassed. maybe she flooded the toilet, felt very embarrassed, didn't want anyone to come in, so she locked it? the two guys could just be 2 coworkers, nothing more, who like to dance. maybe they are 2 gay guys? Maybe there was an 'office gag gift' which was a box of condoms - the wife gave away the condoms to the guys, . There could be a totally reasonable explanation - but....... why hasn't the wife said it?

 

but the sequence of events, as the wife has explained..... are missing some key details!!

[annie24]

PS - i would be more apt to believe it if she had condom instructions in her purse because she and her sister decided to pull and office prank and decorate someone's desk with condoms. where i work, we pull pranks all the time. I would believe that more the 4 year old putting them in her purse. that explanation just doesn't make any sense to me. in fact, i could probably see it MORE that a drunk guy at the party decided to be funny and pulled a prank on her by putting in condom instructions when she wasn't watching her purse.

[trustcounts]

Thanks for all the comments even those that imply, suggest I'm being paranoid.. I hope this is the case and Ill just let it go as that. My wife is not at all timid and would never let anyone control her not even me so as far me attempting to control her ...this would'nt happen, neither would I want it to. There have been a number of members who mention that I should speak to my wife about our relationship. There is nothing better I like to discuss other than the fun stuff than our my daughter, relationship and our future. My wife on the other hand does not and think this way and cannot hold a conversation on the subjects for too long as she says ' I don't think this'. I have to be careful here that I don't paint my wife in a bad light as she is not, she's just herself and we are all different. I just needed some clarity around this as this is not the norm for us and it's kind of through me off kilter a bit. My wife is a data analyst and works in a high level job for the government analysing data and producing reports that may go on to form evidence for policy changes etc... So she is an intelligent lady, introvert by nature but not shy, kind and gentle until riled and appreciates a good sense of humour.

 

The replies I have read so far have been for and against the comments I posted. I appreciate you all taking the time to put own point of views down. I have to let this go now and try and find a better way to communicate with my wife so she can feel that she can say anything at all tome without me being judgmental. Thats not the kind of relationship I want with my wife.

 

The condom in the purse is a bit concerning but again I believe I know my wife but who really knows anyone as the saying goes. I don't want to go in a state of denial about this because that to may cause problems so my best choice is to file it away without it impacting on our relationship and mark it down as ' unexplained'

 

I realise now the fact that I am possibly being unfair and asking you all to consider my information and make a judgment because the information I provided is flat in it's nature, you have also not been able to read any post from my wife nor you do know me or my wife. Also text in a post depending how it's written can imply many different things and many conclusions also can made from this.

 

Thank you all again for your concern, support, good and bad advice It's all well intended I know..

 

Take care..

[abouttime]

The condom thing is a major red flag. First, think of you daughter. Does she get in that drawer often? Does she take stuff from one place and put it away some place else? Is this a habit? When the condom instructions were found in her purse. The natural thing was to investigate the issue with a few more questions. Next, all instructions would have had the makers name on them. Was it your brand?

 

I am sure you respect and love your wife. But you need to do a gut check on this. Why did your wife have to lock herself in the bathroom. You have a very troubling lack of inquisitiveness regarding your wifes actions. Keep your eyes open, it could save your marriage.

[trustcounts]

Thanks abouttime your points are well taken....I doubt that my daughter would have done this but it is possible. The instructions were of the make I use but I had a number of them so quantity is hard to track...Not sure if there is any mileage in constantly asking her the same thing though regarding the condoms as her replies are always the same... There is no evidence of anything else and she is by nature a thinker and works all the options out before speaking. I'm not still not saying that she is working any stories out but I am saying she really thinks before she speaks...

 

I have again to be careful with what I write because I can start to convince myself of things that didn't really happen for the reasons we may suggests but there is one other thing that occurred about 4 years ago that was major but I had to respect my wifes wishes on and here it it is.

 

My wife told me she was pregnant 4 years ago and we were both happy about it up until about 2 months in to the pregnancy she went for a filling at the dentists

My wife came home after her appointment and said she had an abcess on the gum and needed antibiotics which the dentist had prescribed now a few days after this my wife said she was not sure to carry the baby full term as it maybe damaged by the antibiotics and of course I pleaded with to take advice on this from her doctor etc. Unfortunatley I was away on business and she went alone to the doctors. When I came home and asked how it had gone she said the doctor said there is a slim possability that the baby maybe harmed and so my wife requetsed and abortion. She went through with after us both speaking and me stating there is only a slim chance and I'm prepared to take it. My wife said she was not prepared for dealing with a disabled child.. This did not sit well with me at the time but I'm not a woman and cannot see it from her point of view. My wife is not at all relegious and does not believe in a god so she is not held back morals, values etc

[generaldiscord]

I'm sorry, OP...

 

I have to make just two more points.

 

1) Atheists can be very moral people. Some of the most 'good' people I know are conscientious atheists, who think about the impact of their actions. Logically, the decision to abort a 2 month old after strong drugs is a very gray moral area, and your typical atheist would be strongly for it for reasons of charity not only to the child but also to family and the world as a whole.

 

2) But, if you were able to discuss things productively with her, you would already know this. Your conversations need improvement if you want to stay together. There are things you need to be able to talk about, otherwise it's totally understandable that you end up frustrated and suspicious.

 

The only things I can recommend are couples therepy at this point. The normal advice for good conversation won't work online, since clearly you've done your best.

[Brownstone322]

1) Atheists can be very moral people. Some of the most 'good' people I know are conscientious atheists, who think about the impact of their actions.

I took exception to that too. The idea that atheists lack "morals" or "values" (otherwise known as "ethics" and "principles") is just indefensible. When I consider one of these alleged infidelity threads, I try to get a sense of the original poster's sense of reasoning, because the evidence always filters through him or her, and finding a pattern (or lack thereof) in disparate pieces of information is an exercise in critical thinking. That line about "god" and "values" reinforced a bad feeling I already had.

[annie24]

yeah, i am an atheist myself (mostly i guess!) without getting into a political/religious debate, i can say that being an atheist doesn't mean one is without morals and values. You can have morals and values without believing in a deity. HOWEVER, i think you two should have come together to a solution on the abortion issue, being a married couple. but at the end of the day, i understand if she was not comfortable taking that risk (of a birth defect). the fact is, if someone knows themselves well enough to know they can't parent a special needs child, maybe it's for the best...? i am sorry for your loss.

[MrWallFlower]

For whatever it's worth I think you are jumping to conclusions. Even if she lied about the ATM and the condom instructions it does not mean she has cheated. Perhaps she lied because she knew you'd never believe the truth--whatever it is. If you are a controlling person (not saying you are) I could see her not wanting to have to deal with the whole drama of an investigation.

 

Think about it. If she was cheating, would she even admit to dancing with someone she cheated with? No, usually they deny they were even AT THE DANCE. If she were going to cut work early to cheat--would she tell you ahead of time? You were out of town--she could've left work without telling you and you would never know. And what sense does it make that having the condum instructions in her purse means anything?? Do you think she had them in her purse in case she needed to refer to them while cheating?

 

Sounds like you are reaching to me.