vanished?

[LAYAAN]

Hey Ariel,

long time, how are you? good to see you back. Yes, still struggling, you didn't miss anything from my side. Just different names and different faces, still same story.

No, the guy was consistent before I booked my ticket. I fell for his words and I thought that he meant what he said. Everything changed after I booked my ticket. We talked and texted regularly before that.

Well, anyways, I didn't know that about the small claims court. Thanks for the info. If what you say is true, then I shouldn't waste my time for $200.

[Ariel85]

Its horrible, Tinu. Really hate to see you struggling still.

 

But, out of these - good learning experiences and takeaways, right?

 

Like, make the (long distance) guy come to you! Put yourself out there in NO way initially. Stay strictly receptive, and otherwise, let him make all the moves and the efforts. Its the only way you can really gauge someones interest.

 

Small claims court has to be in the same state. I mean, you can sue him in Illinois if you live in NY, unless you plan on flying to IL for the court date.

[LAYAAN]

Hello S,

How are you?

Thank you for the opportunity to meet with you on Saturday 4th Sept. I traveled to Chicago primarily to meet you. I have paid the following price toward the trip (travel cost = $440.15, hostel cost = $125.96). The reason why I ventured to take this trip is because you said that you would pay half the cost of the ticket. I would really appreciate your 50% contribution for my travel expenses in the amount of $220. It would help me pay off the charges I've put on my credit card toward this trip.

Please send the check to, (I'm going to give a PO box address only).

Thank you for bringing a jacket for me. That was very thoughtful of you. Please send me your address and $20 towards mailing charges if you want me to send it back to you.

Good luck with your work as well as finding a wife.

 

Truly,

Tinu

(my cell phone no.)

[marshmlofluff]

Looks good...some tweaks maybe? I like how you don't sound angry--remember, if your goal is to get your money back I think you have to sound polite.

 

_______

[LAYAAN]

Marsh, you really write very well. Thank you so much for editing my draft. Your draft seems so much better. I am simply going to copy paste it and send it.

 

You say that I don't sound angry. Yes, I guess. I'm hurt, I'm angry. I'm trying hard not to show it in my email to him. Its difficult. He has not kept his word so far. Whether I sound angry or polite, I'm really not sure that he will send me the check. I honestly think that the reason why he avoided to meet me Sunday is because he wanted to avoid paying me back.

 

I don't know where God is leading me in this quest for companionship. I recently had an argument with another man in arranged market. He wants to get married ASAP, same issue of kids again. He reminded me that I'm not a "barely legal/teenage" girl of 20-21 yrs and that I should be "aware" of my age when I'm telling "others" adamantly that I want to take the decision of having kids after a couple of years of enjoying my marriage. He also said "So, you think your way is a better way, huh?" It hurts so bad. He also said "I'm not telling you to follow "my" plan. Its about greater good as a family to have kids sooner than later."

[marshmlofluff]

You say that I don't sound angry. Yes, I guess. I'm hurt, I'm angry. I'm trying hard not to show it in my email to him. Its difficult. He has not kept his word so far. Whether I sound angry or polite, I'm really not sure that he will send me the check. I honestly think that the reason why he avoided to meet me Sunday is because he wanted to avoid paying me back.

 

I know how angry you must be--that is why I am proud of you that you wrote an e-mail that didn't show it, because I know how hard it must have been. I went through a similar experience once by the way, and that was when I quit the arranged market for good.

 

I don't know where God is leading me in this quest for companionship. I recently had an argument with another man in arranged market. He wants to get married ASAP, same issue of kids again. He reminded me that I'm not a "barely legal/teenage" girl of 20-21 yrs and that I should be "aware" of my age when I'm telling "others" adamantly that I want to take the decision of having kids after a couple of years of enjoying my marriage. He also said "So, you think your way is a better way, huh?" It hurts so bad. He also said "I'm not telling you to follow "my" plan. Its about greater good as a family to have kids sooner than later."

I think he is entitled to his opinion and to look for whatever he is looking for. But I don't think anyone should be arguing with you, or being rude and patronizing, so early on in an interaction.

 

Don't get your feelings hurt; think of it this way--you are a potential candidate, he is hoping things work out with you, and then he encounters this roadblock. So he is trying to convince you to change your mind. His tactics for doing so were clumsy and insulting, certainly, and that is the part that I don't like. If that is how he deals with conflict, by telling you how you should feel, that's kind of annoying. It's not really his place to decide what the greater good is. Maybe *you* feel the greater good is not to bring a child into a marriage until you are sure the marriage is solid.

 

And from your end, if men keep saying the same thing to you over and over again, you may have to adapt your outlook. I know that in my case, because I definitely do want kids I would be frustrated if I did not know where a man stood on the issue. If he said "no" it would be easy; I would walk away and not waste my time. But it is unclear what to do when someone says they are immutably unsure...that they don't really know whether they want kids, and won't really know until they've been married for a few years, etc. One gets frustrated, and wonders "why can't this person make up their minds about the important things in life before entering the dating/marriage pool?" For me I figure that a guy had 30+ years to figure out what he wanted in life; why couldn't he do it before he started dating/talking to me?

 

Remember how you felt when you met the fireman who said he was "not sure" about getting married; you left.

 

I guess I am just trying to see things from the mens' perspective in case it helps you somehow. If you don't want kids or are unsure this is such a big deal on the arranged market that I think you would save yourself a lot of trouble by being up front about your feelings before you get to the point of talking to someone on the phone.

 

I also will gently remind you that now is not the time you should be upsetting yourself with these conversations. Remember, focus on your PhD.

[marshmlofluff]

PS--One sec, there is a typo in my last paragraph. "best work" should say "best AT work." Also you might consider changing "truly" to "Sincerely," which is the American version.

[LAYAAN]

Hello Marsh, yes, I've corrected the typos in the email. Thank you.

 

Please see my journal for the comment/thoughts about what you wrote in terms of kids. I don't want to change the topic of this thread. Thank you so much for your comments.

[BriarRose]

I really think this was a bad idea - this guy did not even bother to spend time with you when you were in his city, do you really think he is going to send you money? The longer you dwell on this, the longer until you heal from it. What if he doesn't respond? Then what? Will you write him again? Or will you just be even more hurt and angry than you already are?

 

Forget him - forget the money - like Ariel and Batya I have been telling you, treat it as a learning experience, letting them put forth the arrangements and money next time (or better yet, stay local).

 

Be strong - I hope you get your money, but I don't think he will send it. I think he will respond with some vague answer about sending it when he can.

[WockaWocka]

Tinu, I just stumbled upon this thread. Am really sorry you went through this experience. Marsh's editing of your email was perfect. What happened with the guy. Did he get back to you?

[LAYAAN]

No, no email, no check, nothing.

The guy is just a sweet talker. He didn't want to meet me, but didn't know how to turn me down after I told him that I had already booked my ticket. I hope that I've learned my lesson.

[WockaWocka]

No, no email, no check, nothing.

The guy is just a sweet talker. He didn't want to meet me, but didn't know how to turn me down after I told him that I had already booked my ticket. I hope that I've learned my lesson.

 

I was afraid of this after he'd acted like such a jerk to you. Sorry it turned out that way. These are expensive lessons learned (especially as PhD students -- I am in the same boat!) Read your other thread on singlehood and sounds like it might be best to take a break for a while. But sorry these guys have been so disappointing.

Fondly,

WockaWocka

[LAYAAN]

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, it has been an expensive lesson. I trusted someone who doesn't deserve to be trusted.

Good luck to you in your PhD program, as well. It can be really challenging. Take care. See you on the forums again.

[MinziGirl]

Yes, Penny you are right, but I talked to him and he is ready to wait. He knows that I'm finishing up my schooling.

I don't know his parents' phone or contact information. So far, the guy has behaved very well and feels trustworthy. There has been contact every week, at least on weekends. I have no clue what to do. This is so strange.

 

How much do you know about this guy before deciding to spend that money to go fly over & meet him? It seems to me that you don't know him very well to make that commitment. You don't have anything in your hands that can guarantee that your trip would be worthwhile. E.g: His parent's contact number or his assaurance that he will meet you.

 

Perhaps by disappearing, he is trying to tell you to cancel the trip as he cannot commit to meeting you... whether he has cold feet or is actually busy, he is trying to signal that he doesn't want to meet you or don't have the time to meet you. Unless you have made other plans during your trip, i don't see why you should be holding on to the air ticket just to meet him up. I would cancel if i were you.

[marshmlofluff]

I was afraid of this after he'd acted like such a jerk to you. Sorry it turned out that way. These are expensive lessons learned (especially as PhD students -- I am in the same boat!) Read your other thread on singlehood and sounds like it might be best to take a break for a while. But sorry these guys have been so disappointing.

Fondly,

WockaWocka

 

Yeah...I also figured he wouldn't reply; what a jerk. But at least now Tinu knows he was a jerk, as opposed to having to wonder if she'd have her money back if she just sent an e-mail; personally I'd be happier knowing I did everything I could and it was really the other person's fault. I wonder why he left his jacket with her.

 

Anyway, an expensive lesson learned--but less expensive than learning it after marrying such a guy! And one nice thing is that when you graduate and get an actual job, $400 will seem like very little. Nothing to do but chalk it up to experience, and move on, as Tinu appears to have done.

 

It sucks how many jerks are out there. The nice thing--keep this in mind--is that you only need one good fellow. I guess all one can do is learn to weed the jerks out as fast as possible, and with as little of a time and emotional investment as possible.

[DN]

If you should fly to meet someone again ask for his half of the costs upfront.

[LAYAAN]

hmm... those who are telling me to ask for half cost of the ticket upfront... I have a Q for all of them.

There are 2 possibilities here -

1) I ask the guy to book my ticket, so he pays the entire cost.

2) I ask the guy to send me a check for tentatively half the cost of the ticket, BEFORE I book my ticket to go see him.

In both these cases, the guy is taking a chance on me, trusting a stranger. Just like you asked me "Why the hell would you book an air ticket to go see someone? How much do you know the guy? How can you promise that he will pay for his half when he meets you (that is if he meets you)?" A man can ask all the same questions, won't he?

I want to share with you something that happened 3 years ago with me. Through arranged marriage process, I talked with a man. His parents are somewhere on the East coast. His mom was pushing me to book my ticket to go see him. I couldn't dare to ask her for half the price of the ticket upfront. I kinda... delayed buying my ticket, told her that the price was too high for me... hoping that she would get the message. She said to me "Book the ticket. You come to see us. I promise I will give you half the price AFTER you come here, not before that." What do you say to that? Now, would you trust a person just because they are older in age? Or you would stand your ground and say "No, I can't afford to book the ticket unless you pay your half NOW." Understand that they are taking a chance by sending you money upfront too. The point is that someone has to take a chance here. I'm not saying that will be me next time. But I hope you get the message. If the other party decides to cheat... someone will lose their money.

[LAYAAN]

MinziGirl, I hope you have read the entire thread. Even canceling the the ticket and accommodation was costing me $200. That is the reason I decided to give myself and the guy a chance and just go and see what happens. I had no other choice. It was too late to cancel.

[WockaWocka]

hmm... those who are telling me to ask for half cost of the ticket upfront... I have a Q for all of them.

There are 2 possibilities here -

1) I ask the guy to book my ticket, so he pays the entire cost.

2) I ask the guy to send me a check for tentatively half the cost of the ticket, BEFORE I book my ticket to go see him.

In both these cases, the guy is taking a chance on me, trusting a stranger. Just like you asked me "Why the hell would you book an air ticket to go see someone? How much do you know the guy? How can you promise that he will pay for his half when he meets you (that is if he meets you)?" A man can ask all the same questions, won't he?

I agree, it seems like someone could get burned either way. And giving your secure flight information and seat preferences for someone else to book your ticket is awkward too. But can't you invite them to where you live? Suggest a few local hotels near your house where they could book a room.

 

Or, you could enlist the help of a travel agent (how old-fashioned!) who wouldn't process a ticket until after she received half from him and half from you. The flight will cost a little more with booking fees but at least you'd get half upfront.

 

Cheers.

[penelope13]

Yes someone has to take a chance. But you are working in a very traditional setting here, where I think it's ok for you to expect that the man invests at least half of the costs. If they are afraid you might be using the money for other purposes they can book the ticket for you so that you can't use it for anything else.

 

But if you are honest, you just wanted to see this guy anyway, no matter if it made sense or not.

[marshmlofluff]

When I met my boyfriend, I let him come to see me, and what I paid for was his hotel (which I didn't have to pay until he showed up.)

 

In our case, by the time we met, we had already interacted so much via Internet/phone that I really already knew him; it never crossed my mind that he might cheat me out of anything, as he did seem to be a very sincere person and was making a long trip to the middle of nowhere just to see me.

 

But in hindsight it occurs to me that even if I had not trusted him, splitting things the way we did meant that even if he had been a jerk, he would have had a hard time ripping me off.

[LAYAAN]

Yes, thats what I'm going to do now on. I'll tell men to come see me and I'll book hotel for them. I don't need to pay anything until they show up.

[icarus27]

I scanned this thread from page to page, so may not have taken in every last detail. Many a true word about how the OP should finish her PhD in its final stages, but my remark (as ever) is on a glaring gender-inequality that seems to have passed everyone by.

 

My comment is that I've been in the analogous mirror image situation. Where it is the (Indian / Asian ) women who have flaked on me.

 

What I keep reading on this thread is a large number of women inferring how interested a man is, by the money he is willing to dish out for airfares and hotel stays. Does this not strike anyone as materialism rehashed into a modern form?

 

Marsh, you had a somewhat equitable system where you paid for the hotel stay - at least the risk to you was mitigated and you lost nothing if he didn't show up. But I have to put up one protest: because you ended up with a man at your side, does not mean your system 'works'. You had the good fortune to find a good man: had you *not* found him, I have a feeling you would resign your dating expenditure to money down the drain.

 

Speaking as a man, I can't help but also feel dismayed. I have felt exactly the same emotions as Tinu - when I flew over to see someone in good faith, only to be treated as a temporary part of their oh-so-busy day and shunted into the trash as soon as she started seeing someone else immediately after meeting me.

 

Have you women ever paused to wonder what it's like for men, who are expected by society to put the cash up front (airfares / hotel stays / dinners / drinks /gifts) - and their cash is interpreted by you as a sign of commitment? The man has no choice in the matter! He is suckered into a game where if he doesn't pay, some other man will, and will consequently get the girl. As Marsh once said to me, the man always has a choice: if I don't like the deal, I can always take a hike. Which to me, is another way of saying, accept the deal or be single.

 

Tinu, because you paid up and socially this is something that a woman is not expected to do, your anger (at one point in the thread) knew no bounds and you even considered suing the man. I wonder just how ridiculous and borderline psycho this would have appeared if *I* had tried to sue any of the Indian women I travelled long distances to have a first date with. I remember always telling myself that this is the nature of the game: I expect the woman to have free will and have to accept what she does with it.

 

The glaring gender inequality lies in how women get to skilfully shield themselves from financial loss, using dating etiquette as the rule book to make men pay. On this thread, for once, I observed how women react when they choose to pay and become subject to the whim of a man. (A man who ultimately acted like an unbelieveable jerk).

 

Summary, none of us, man or woman, likes being cheated out of our hard-earned money (and this hit Tinu even harder as a student). Apologies that what I wrote doesn't address your angst much Tinu, it's more a reflection of my own axe to grind. Just wanted to say something that wasn't being said.

[LAYAAN]

Icraus, I don't know what kinda women you have been dating.

You have been reading my threads. I try to chip in as much as I can irrespective of the distance or what I feel about the guy. When I was dating the UK guy, I had a part time job and I worked extra hours to save money so that I don't have to ask him to pay for hotel and food.

 

In this case, I'm angry because the guy knew very well that I couldn't afford to take a vacation like that on a busy holiday. I told him specifically that I'm flying there only to see him because he said he will pay for the ticket. I'm willing to let go of the money, but you read how badly I was treated. If you ask me to meet you and have no simple decency to even spend time with me as a friend after I show up, what kinda animal category that puts you in? I was ignored by the guy when in reality I talked to him the night before I left and asked him if he really wanted to see me. It was his opportunity to come clean and say that he wasn't really interested or send me an email that he wasn't interested. Again, you will say... so you are angry because you are a female and you lost money. No, not just because I'm a female and I lost money, but because I was mistreated. A little more honesty and decency would have been really appreciated. When I met men in California, irrespective of the distance they traveled and what I felt about them, I made sure that I treated them with respect and enthusiasm. I paid for my share too.

 

I don't know the tradition/expectation there, but *I* have never met a guy here who dished me anything for free. I can't dare ask "You drive here, you pay for food, you pay for the movie." If I did, that would reach my parents within minutes and not just that, it would reach even other men in arranged market. Ofcourse, I didn't treat people well only out of that fear, I treat others with respect because that's who I'm. I wish I could get a free meal. I haven't yet had a free meal. I had to pay EVERYTIME I went on a date in some way or other, either drive half distance, or if the guy comes here, pay for entire food. hmm... I think I should change my ways and make men pay for everything... that would be so awesome....

[WockaWocka]

What I keep reading on this thread is a large number of women inferring how interested a man is, by the money he is willing to dish out for airfares and hotel stays. Does this not strike anyone as materialism rehashed into a modern form?

 

This is not about lavish gifts, this is about means of access to be able to evaluate the prospective match and the fact that both people should take some kind of financial risk if they are meeting from a long distance. From what I understand Tinu is looking for someone who speaks a relatively rare language and is in the same caste so the search has been national, and particularly as a student it's difficult to absorb the cost of airfares and hotels.

 

Icarus, I'm sorry if you've met a lot of materialistic women or if you feel frustrated by the financial aspect of dating, but I think you're reading a lot of your own issues into this situation.

 

Summary, none of us, man or woman, likes being cheated out of our hard-earned money (and this hit Tinu even harder as a student).

I completely agree with your summary. Given the difficulty of trying to find a good match I think it's inevitable that some amount of money/time/effort is wasted by all parties, and the main issue here--as you've experienced when traveling long-distance, only to be treated very casually--is insincerity, essentially taking someone else's time, money, and effort for granted. If the women you meet treat love as a gift to the highest bidder then I think you need to start looking in new places!!