vanished?

[LAYAAN]

Icraus, I have a Q for you. You mentioned if you don't pay, some other guy will pay and get the girl. Why do you care to get such a girl who will go with a man who dishes out money?

[BriarRose]

Tinu, let's say the guy did pay. The point is, he was treating you poorly even before you went - not calling for days, blowing hot and cold. And still you went. I would have rather been out the money (which you ended up even spending more than had you not gone) than gone to see someone who was treating me so nonchalantly. I think the lesson here is more about having pursued someone who did not show you much interest before you went. I realize initially he did, but that changed.

 

Normally I would never advocate an LDR period, but I know your situation is different in terms of what you are looking for, so I can understand you wanting to do so when you meet someone.

[LAYAAN]

Yes, you are right. I know you said this before "Cancel your tickets. You are going to lose money either way." You know, I struggled with that decision too, but went anyways because it didn't make sense to me to lose money just towards cancellation. I would rather lose money and get to see the place. That is precisely the reason I went. I was staying in downtown where I had an opportunity to see the area around. And regarding the guy... yes, we all knew what was coming. That doesn't mean its appropriate, but I wasn't shocked to know he behaved badly. He clearly had lost interest in me for some reason. But its very disrespectful of the guy to use all the right words and tell me how excited he is to meet me until I booked the ticket and then just brush me off like nothing ever happened. That shows character of a person. He is unreliable.

Had he paid BrianRose, I would have probably canceled the tickets. I learned a lesson through all this and it was important for me to learn that. Consistent or not, I'll not put my money on the line again. Let them come to see me here. The issue with men is... if they dont' work hard for something they don't value it.

[icarus27]

Hi Tinu, I was thinking of writing on the way home from work (sad, I know! )

 

I don't know the tradition/expectation there, but *I* have never met a guy here who dished me anything for free. I can't dare ask "You drive here, you pay for food, you pay for the movie." If I did, that would reach my parents within minutes and not just that, it would reach even other men in arranged market. Ofcourse, I didn't treat people well only out of that fear, I treat others with respect because that's who I'm. I wish I could get a free meal. I haven't yet had a free meal. I had to pay EVERYTIME I went on a date in some way or other, either drive half distance, or if the guy comes here, pay for entire food. hmm... I think I should change my ways and make men pay for everything... that would be so awesome....

 

My answer would be that you have somehow found yourself in a corner of the dating market where the expectation is, you will pay for *something* at least to be able to get to the date or during the date itself. This is not so surprising given the long-distance nature of some of the meetups, and also the fact that a lot of the Indian-American men you have been meeting are themselves so materialistic that they make me go red with embarrassment. But - in the wider dating market, the expectation is SQUARELY at the feet of men.

 

In all of my long-distance meetups, I have assumed right from the get-go that I would pay my own travel and often end up offering to pay for the drinks / dinner as well. There was no question in my mind whatsoever (whether the woman was Indian or European) that I could even hint at asking for some of the cost of turning up. This is because (read plenty of other threads on eNA), a man even mentioning or in the slightest part contesting anything to do with money on a first date is immediately red-flagged as a loser. In exactly the same way that you feel there is an unspoken pressure on you to pay, I have felt there is an unspoken expectation on me to pay.

 

Wocka, it is not that women have to be gee-whizz materialistic for them to behave as women have behaved with me. The underlying truth is that a man's ability to pay is considered to be the bare basic which allows him entry into the room -- anything he does after that on the date is other business. In the earlier days of dating, I accepted these social rules without question, I did not mind being generous .... but years later, I realised that there are women who cold-bloodedly and cynically rely on the fact that the man will pay, to keep their own dating expenditure down. That is to say, they know that for £1000 or $1000 to you guys, they can get through 25 men - thus they are more likely to find what they want, with less financial exposure. I am not here to argue the toss about one specific date, this or that ..... as a social trend, men buy more drinks, more dinners, more tickets than women as dating expenditure. This comes with the turf.

 

Lest this turn into another "Who pays?" thread, I agree the central idea is, did the person treat Tinu right after she arrived? No, he blatantly didn't. Overtiredness, doing too many things in the same weekend, not cancelling when he had the chance to save her all the trouble - I can understand how all that would leave Tinu angry. I had one woman who asked me to take a cross-country (UK) flight to see her then broke it off saying that her parents already had an arranged marriage for her in mind. I had others play me completely as one of the many men they were seeing at the time - not once did it bother their conscience that unlike Joe Bloggs who lives in her own city, I was burning air miles and car miles just to be a gentleman and allow her to meet in a place that was familiar and safe for her - and therefore they could at least offer to pay for my hotel stay or for the dinner or whatever. No offers, never.

 

My question: can you see, in the delicate exchange that is a first date, how badly a man comes off by asking the woman to share the cost of meeting up? He is thus unconsciously pressured into paying. The woman sometimes realises it, but also realises that playing along with it is to her advantage, so she does not offer to pay any share. The man can then not say anything even if he knows he is being played, because to say anything would allow the woman free hand to call him a jerk and guarantee that he won't get a second date.

[icarus27]

Icraus, I have a Q for you. You mentioned if you don't pay, some other guy will pay and get the girl. Why do you care to get such a girl who will go with a man who dishes out money?

 

Valid question.

No woman has ever said to me, right up front, that she has others in line, waiting to take her out for meals, holidays and diamond rings. {I tell a lie, there was one (Indian) woman who actually was THAT cheap. Ha ha}

The point is, a woman does not need to say it. It is one of the unspoken rules of dating.

By not accepting the unspoken rule, a man will automatically commit dating blasphemy. He has to operate with the assumption that there are plenty of competitors out there.

You have to remember this part: even without exclusively going for money-grabbing women, the average man like me finds himself in a dating market where to be seen or noticed, you have to pay just to get in the room. This is before personality, wit, charm, kindness, anything else has a chance.

[LAYAAN]

Icraus,

Let me share something with you. May be you can learn how to hold on to your money by practicing some of these tricks.

 

- Most Indian (raised in India) men in arranged market... alright, we are talking on phone, getting to know each other... here is how the conversation proceeds...

Man "So, are you coming anytime to (e.g.) Chicago?"

Me "Umm... no, but if there is any reason to (hinting... ask me out) I would come."

Man "Ya, why don't you come here? You will get to see a new place. You haven't been outside CA and I understand the that you are a student. I can pay for the trip *when* you come here so you can book a ticket quickly and get a low price. (hint... see how smart the guy is!)

 

OR

Man "Hey, you know we can meet half way, we both will get to see a new place."

 

OR

Man "Hey, (mostly in CA), we can meet half way, how about (place's name) its exactly half way for you and me. There is so and so.... worth seeing at that place. Have you seen it anytime? (Observe, how he just pushes his choice)"

 

If I still persist and want him to come to see me

Me "Um... thanks for wanting to meet, but I'm not in a position to drive for 4 hours currently. Would you consider coming here instead?"

Man "Um... that's fine. We will meet some other time then. I'll stay in touch with you."

Most men at this point vanish for an indefinite period of time. Basically "its my way or you will never get a chance to meet me."

I recently closed a match on the matrimonial site. I asked a guy how he would like to proceed (hinting a meeting), he said he has no plans to come to California and suggested that if I come there, I should get back in touch with him. You see the attitude and lack of enthusiasm? That is how 99% of men in arranged market have behaved with me. I'm not sure if its something about me or thats how they behave with every girl in that market.

 

Also, regarding the parents issue. I have been burned once (and that was sufficient for me) when a guy told his parents that I didn't pay for exactly half the share and their parents had an audacity to call my parents and let her know "how cheap and low your daughter is".

My mom asked me "Why wouldn't you have a simple courtesy to offer to pay for the entire food if the guy drove out all the way to see you? I hope you have learned from this lesson and won't embarrass us by getting to hear this again. Listen, its perfectly fine if the guy turns you down. You stay classy, alright?"

Its not just the parent issue. There is one more issue much deeper than this. I mentioned that I was registered on a matrimonial website. That's okay. Noone knows you there. Its just like a dating website, quite cut and dry. You can do whatever you want. Noone can control you or spread a bad word about you. But in addition to that, my parents registered me in a few local marriage bureaus. These are owned and run privately by some women and God forbid if you are a girl and do something wrong, the boy or his parents promptly report it to the owner of the bureau. Now, if my mom didn't personally know the owner, things would be less harsh for me, but because she does, I have to see to it that my mom doesn't hear anything bad about me from the guy's family or from the lady because my family's and my reputation is at stake. Its pretty much like some dating websites like EH you can complain about your date (ofcourse, if they really mistreated you).

 

So, I hope you got some tips how to save your money. Why not give it a shot Icraus? You have nothing to lose. I really suggest that you try it once on a seemingly good natured, non-aggressive woman to begin with and master the skill.

 

Oh and about paying for the food, most of my dates WOULD NOT TOUCH THEIR PURSE when it was the time to pay. And the conversation wasn't so deep that we had to keep talking and forget for a while about paying so naturally I had to suggest that I would pay for my half or sometimes the entire amount. Why don't you try this trick? When the check comes? Appear to be deeply involved in the conversation, don't touch the purse or check, don't move, or may be excuse yourself to the restroom, or may be get a phone call at that time itself (you can tell the waiter to give you a call, pay him some money or something). I bet this trick will work with a decent woman. If a woman is tough, she may wait for you to still pick up the tab. I don't know. Think about it.

Now, let me talk about something like coffee / movie. Some of my dates have actually stood *behind* me rather than by my side so they could avoid paying. What am I going to do when the ticket guy/the cashier lady extends her hand at me asking for money? Am I going to turn around and ask my date "umm... so would you pay for my ticket?" Try this trick. It may work.

 

Let me ask you one more Q Icraus. Do you HAVE to behave like a decent man/gentleman? What if you don't? Listen, whether you are a gentleman or not, these women aren't going ahead with you, right? Also, do you have your reputation at stake (like I do) in this dating/matrimonial market? If not, why do you have to behave like a good boy? I would really like to know. I mean come on, you have heard my horror stories... I shared it openly with my parents how some of these guys behaved with me, but unfortunately my folks are too timid to call up the guy's parents. According to my parents "Now, if we do report this to his parents, they may consider this as our lashing out because he turned you down. Why bother? Trust in God. He will bring the right guy. Why do you want to get together with someone like this anyways?" So, my point is what did these guys lose by not behaving like a good person with me? Nothing... they still got married, they still have kids, this and that. You see my point? You don't have to be/behave like a good person to get a girl. What did I do when I was mistreated? Nothing... What did the guy lose by not treating me right? Nothing...

 

You have to try these tricks Icraus. I bet you won't lose. And please keep us posted.

[icarus27]

Ha ha Tinu, did you mean for that to be an amazing satire on what these guys do?

 

That gave me a good laugh.

 

In answer to your question, why be the good guy? It made me think as well. There is one (Indian) woman I knew who led me on in a shameless way only to ditch me in a way that would have been disgraceful if her parents had heard about it. And yet I never bothered to use that as some kind of 'payback', realising that the so-called classy person walks away alone, while the cheap a**hole get married, have kids, and everyone walks around saying how wonderful they are.

 

It's tragically funny how alike our experiences are.

[LAYAAN]

huh... so you don't want to take my advice and try the tricks I suggested? well, upto you. You are bringing disgrace to all South Asian men in arranged market by not following these time-tested tricks .

 

Hang in there Icraus. There are good women out there. You have to believe that and hold out for someone like that.

Take care...

[anu1560]

 

That is how 99% of men in arranged market have behaved with me. I'm not sure if its something about me or thats how they behave with every girl in that market.

 

 

Wow. I think I am getting to the point where I have started experiencing the same things as you Tinu. And I am kind of getting tired of Indian men and trying to push myself to date men who are not of Indian origin. Somehow I find them more honest and less chauvinist than Indian men. No offense to Indian men. But much of it is how these men grew up. It is very cultural. They grew up in a society which is heavily male chauvinist society. A country still struggling with social disgrace like dowry. Where each day their mom tells them, 'you are born as a man and thats why you are special. You will be choosing. Women should just fall over your feet'. The last sentence is just a sarcasm. But thats pretty much how most Indian men grow up as.

 

I don't think it is you Tinu. It is the Indian arranged marriage system where the men's side always assume that 'WE ARE THE GUYS SIDE AND THUS WE SHOULD NOT BE PAYING FOR ANYTHING. IT IS GIRLS SIDE RESPONSIBILITY TO PAY FOR EVERYTHING'. I have seen in Indian marriage system, men's side decline to pay for even smallest of the small stuff. And thats the mentality most of these Indian men carry to US. And thats why these men are ill-equipped with normal decency and they stand behind your back so that they don't have to pay. Yukkks. There are exceptions for sure. But men's side not paying is the general thumbs of rule in India too. No wonder I am trying to push myself to meet anyone who is a decent guy (irrespective of color, creed, caste, nationality, religion). Because my experience with Indian men in this country has been as horrific as you have mentioned here and your journal. There are still some guys whose 2 sentence is 'are you pure ghee?' Hehe. If you are Indian you will know what that really means. Forget about etiquettes, some of these men don't even know how to have a sensible conversation. Find some of these men really amusing.

 

I think I have said too many bad things about Indian men now. Please forgive me. No personal attack on anyone.

 

I think I like doing half and half. I don't like guys to pay full, neither do I like to pay for full for the other person. And if I feel the guy is going to be a cheapo (found most Indian men to be with the exception of verrrrrrrrry few), I go for restroom break and tell the person waiting on us to bring separate checks. If the guys wants to pick, he will pick both. Who knows, my approach may not be right thing. Never quite done this in my life ever, till recently. Find it really hard.

 

But I have to say one thing, you have patience Tinu. A lot of patience. I have no patience for these kind of people. I just snap.

 

And icarus, why you guys are only virtual. haha. I have seen so many sensible men in eNA and so few in real world.

[LAYAAN]

Well... sorry to know that you are facing the same nonsense Anu. Go for non-Indian men. Really... I mean it. The fireman I dated had his own issues, but I must say, he wasn't as bad as some of the Indian guys I met in arranged market.

I know the literal meaning of "pure ghee", I don't know if it carries any other meaning? If you are referring to virginity... then yes, I got that Q too.

A man in arranged market said to me "I hope you understand what I'm saying. If you are not "that", please don't bother contacting me again."

I never did. Not because I wasn't "that". I just didn't like the snobbish attitude.

 

I talked to a divorced man, he asked me "Why are you interested in buying "used goods"?"

 

What do you call such non-sense? I didn't even bother explaining or anything, I simply deleted the profile and the number. And you know an Indian man in arranged market is always right. Their family, is always right. So, I don't mess with them. I'm thankful to God that I don't have to marry these men and I at least have a right (sorry, that sounds sarcastic) to say 'no'.

[icarus27]

All this talk of how Indian men in the arranged market can lack some of the most basic of manners ...

 

Tinu, what's your opinion of a case of mine from a year ago - I don't think I've written about this one before.

 

After years of resisting offers from my parents to look for potential partners for me, I allowed them to do so for three months last year. Long story short, nothing came of it, but when I now read from Tinu and Anu how arrogantly men behave in the arranged marriage market, I'm reminded of one of the girls I was given a contact number for, by my parents.

 

The thing is, I opened the email convo with this girl with a short friendly email, and because I expected it is always good to know who is talking - I gave her a few pictures of myself. I also wrote (a) that if the pics did nothing for her, she was free to end things - I wouldn't be offended and (b) could I have a pic or two of hers? These I thought to be perfectly normal requests. How wrong I was!

 

Firstly, she seemed to ignore my request - so I decided not to labour the point and continued to email her asking chatty questions about her life and sharing details from mine. She would always write with 2- or 3-line emails, saying not much more than "Went shopping today", "spent time with my kid nephew today". Round about a month into this (already beginning to sound like a waste of time to me), I politely repeated my request for a photo and still got nothing. Yet another two weeks later, I repeated it for the 3rd time (by this stage it was getting ridiculous emailing someone I don't know the look of, AT ALL) - and here was when she snapped back an angry email to me saying she "doesn't share her photo with any Tom * * * * or Harry".

 

Reading what you write, Tinu, makes me wonder that this woman had a *massive* chip on her shoulder about ALL guys on the arranged market scene. Even before I'd said/ emailed a single word, she had made up her mind that I'm a piece of scum with no social manners and it's because I'm an ignorant a$$ that I'm seeking a partner on the arranged market.

 

As a man hailing from an E. Indian background (though not Indian-raised), I come back to a central idea: the more men act like ignorant a$$es, the more it makes things difficult for the few of us who want to be different and lead a different kind of life.

 

The whole scene is screwed: I've myself written many times on eNA about how the behaviour of Indian women has almost made me permanently lose any attraction for Indian women.

The difference (and that's another thread) is that women of Indian descent can (in Europe and the US) 'go white' as long as they're prepared to have a relationship in mainstream terms (dating and romancing, then living together etc). Indian men like myself who also want to date, but date meaningfully, find ourselves alone. Simple as that.

[WockaWocka]

The whole scene is screwed: I've myself written many times on eNA about how the behaviour of Indian women has almost made me permanently lose any attraction for Indian women.

The difference (and that's another thread) is that women of Indian descent can (in Europe and the US) 'go white' as long as they're prepared to have a relationship in mainstream terms (dating and romancing, then living together etc). Indian men like myself who also want to date, but date meaningfully, find ourselves alone. Simple as that.

 

Wow, these experiences from both male and female sides of the Indian diaspora marriage market make my online dating experiences here in the US seem not quite as bad! However, I'm not sure i agree with this premise, that Indian women can 'go white' while Indian men cannot meaningfully date. The four white-Indian relationships I know of are all Indian men with white women, two are married, one is very serious. And as a white woman I've dated a handful of Indian men, both Indian-born and of Indian-descent. None of these dates/relationships were ultimately successful, but the same has been true for all relationships I've been in.

 

So while I respect anyone's decision to date within one's national/linguistic group, I do think Icarus that if you were willing to give non-Indian women a try you might find that there are many who would be interested in you and it might be a pleasant change of pace. (Or not.. and then the arranged partners you meet will seem that much more enticing! )

 

Tinu, I also think the arranged marriage market may be much easier for you after you get your PhD. You will seem more settled and 'serious' to prospective partners, you won't have to worry so much about the cost of travel, and so on. As a woman who's the same age as you I understand it's difficult to be told to wait to get married, but this type of matchmaking you're doing sounds incredibly frustrating.

 

Good luck to all.

[anu1560]

Yep. Me too. After the initial shock of these nonsense questions, now I just stopped responding to any of these people. I just do one click for these people. Don't care if I am single for rest of my life. But I cannot be with any of these men who has a very narrow approach to life. Its probably not the questions which bother me most, it is the attitude which bothers me more. It is the attitude in which each sentence is reeking with the idea, 'I am the boss and you better follow me around according to my whims and wishes or I find someone else'.

 

And Wockawocka, it is actually sometimes hard to be an Indian. I am proud to be one. But you have hundreds and hundreds of rules to follow and most of these rules are not really fair to women.

[LAYAAN]

Icraus, the recent case you have mentioned seems to be really over the top. Honestly, if I was getting such dry emails/texts, I would simply write them off. I dont' have any patience to go after someone who isn't interested in me and shows that so clearly. A photo is a very simple and legitimate request. If someone didn't even acknowledge my simple request, I would not waste my time talking to them. What I mean by that is, when you were talking to that girl she should have at least said "No, I don't want to send you my photos."/simply stop responding to you OR "Yes, here are my photos" OR "I will send you my photos is ..... days (a decent amount of time)", but simply not addressing the Q is rude according to me. I would not waste my time talking to someone like this.

 

All I can say to you is -

1) Jokes apart, did you notice in my reply to you about Indian men how they usually hold their ground? What do you think about that approach?

Say in this girl's case if you had said "Thank you for showing up online to chat. I would definitely love to get to know you, but just so noone wastes their time, I think you would understand a simple basic photo is necessary to begin with. What do you think?" If a rational, polite reply does not follow such request, you know where the person stands. Then you don't need to waste your time on them, right?

2) Try non-Indian women. You might find a better person there. Do you have hang-ups with moving in, etc? As I understand from your posts you are educated and I guess, you must be making decent money too. Stay on arranged market, just for the sake of it if you think its okay, but look into mainstream dating too. I know you have written that the mainstream dating isn't for you. I blank out on the reasons you mentioned for that though.

3) I'm hanging in there in arranged market. You can do so too if you really think you will find a decent girl on arranged market. I really don't have a choice due to my reservations about pre-marital sex, moving in, and dating for several years without even a simple engagement. I hate to see anyone suffer in arranged market and I always tell people, "Don't stay on this market if you don't have to. This market is not going to change its ways." I will tell you the same. See if you can get a decent person anywhere else instead.

4) Have you tried offline dating, e.g. you know if you like someone in a local library, you can approach the person, or tell your friends to set you up with someone, etc.? What I've observed is women who are working hard towards something whether it is education or their job are not so arrogant. They might be good candidates for you. What do you think? Can you attend University functions etc? or go to University libraries? what about attending events like local charities, marathons, gyms, volunteering events, etc.? I don't know what else to suggest. If you widen the pool you draw from, that should (statistically speaking) increase your chances of finding a decent match.

As I'm writing this I can feel how difficult the situation is with us in these countries. Sigh... I feel it, but I don't know the solution.

[LAYAAN]

Thanks WockaWocka for your support.

[marshmlofluff]

3) I'm hanging in there in arranged market. You can do so too if you really think you will find a decent girl on arranged market. I really don't have a choice due to my reservations about pre-marital sex, moving in, and dating for several years without even a simple engagement.

 

You always have a choice. My best female friend from Europe had values identical to yours and her American boyfriend (now husband) respected them completely. One of my best male friends, and his now-wife, had the same set of values. And for that matter, I have the same values you do; I left the arranged market four years ago and never looked back. I have met quite a few men who either share my values or respect them. Yes, they are a small fraction of the population, but like tends to attract like.

 

The only man who strung me along for years was actually Indian.

[LAYAAN]

Hi Marsh,

I understand technically that one always has a choice, but do they really? In this case, if I haven't found a guy on my own, have major issues with the mainstream dating rules, can't get along with the business mentality in arranged market, what choice am I left with?

Yes, I know you have told me this before. I was actually going to make an entry about this in my journal today. Since you have lived in this country longer than I have, I think you know it better than I do, but I'm going to be honest with you Marsh, I don't trust what you say. Even on a serious website like EH I was asked if I was "experienced". I was told to my face by the fireman's best friend "The reason why he lost interest in you was because you were not sleeping with him. When someone gives you a title of "my GF" it is expected that you sleep with them. Its possible that you will find the kinda guy you are looking for, but you will have to go to church setting for that. Its impossible to find this kinda man outside religious setting." Yes, the fireman never pushed me for anything, so one can say he respected my views. He just wasn't happy about them and it showed in his behavior towards me once GF-BF relationship was established.

 

Can you guide me a little here Marsh? How did you go about making sure that your and the guy's values matched? Did you write it in your profile, or did you mention it after say 2nd 3rd meeting in person to the guy? How exactly did you say it (I would appreciate if you tell me the exact words, since your choice of words is much better than mine)? How did you screen men? You can PM me, if you would like, with the answer.

[marshmlofluff]

Can you guide me a little here Marsh? How did you go about making sure that your and the guy's values matched? Did you write it in your profile, or did you mention it after say 2nd 3rd meeting in person to the guy? How exactly did you say it (I would appreciate if you tell me the exact words, since your choice of words is much better than mine)? How did you screen men? You can PM me, if you would like, with the answer.

 

It depended a lot on the guy. I can just say that over the years, to my knowledge only one guy has turned me down for that reason (and good riddance).

 

For starters, I don't drink, which is really unusual in the US. Not drinking has a very, very high correlation to being conservative in other respects also. I set my profile settings to pick out college-educated men who also didn't drink, I set my religion to "atheist/agnostic" to weed out any really religious people, and I set what I was looking for to only "marriage" or "long-term" or whatever depending on the site. Those (few) men who wrote me all tended to have the same settings. It is funny how a few checkboxes can indicate such a strong possibility that someone is a match, but that in fact worked very, very well.

 

With these settings, I didn't need to say much--not that many guys wrote, but the ones who did were largely what I was looking for; sweet and traditional but open-minded, or they would not be writing an Indian chick. When talking to them early on I would mention many times that due to culture, my values were a lot more conservative than the average woman here; typically they would take the hint. On our early dates I would generally hint further that I was inexperienced and hadn't had many boyfriends. By this point about 85% of them had picked up on things. So I was very careful not to pull a bait-and-switch or mislead anyone.

 

At some point very early on, usually on Date #2 or Date #3, the man would initiate a conversation about sex or he would simply become physical. After that the ice was broken and the topic of sex was on the table, and I generally took that as the opportunity to just have a frank discussion about how far I was willing to go.

 

I have found that with the right kind of guy, and the kind of guy I like, the physical act of sex is not that important, and what matters is the emotional connection. And with that sort of man, you can keep him very, very happy by speaking to him sensuously, and trying new things, and giving him bubble baths, and purring when he touches you, and touching him back just the right way--and making sure he does not leave unsatisfied (even if he has to do the job himself). And I am happy to do all of that--see, it is simply that I was brought up with the idea that intimacy goes with commitment, not that I think sex is wrong--I love men and love the male body, and boy oh boy when I am with a man all of that passion shows even if I am not sleeping with him.

 

And I think that is enough for a lot of men; as long as a man feels loved and desired, and knows that you care tremendously about his pleasure and very much want to please him, and that you want to have sex with him, that you are dying to have sex with him, that is the important thing, and he will probably not ask you to go against your values. Sure, some of them grumble a bit at having to commit, but to a man every boyfriend of mine except one has told me he respects me more for waiting, and all of them have said they wish they waited for me.

 

Heh...in fact, I am sufficiently successful at making my boyfriends feel sexually fulfilled that when Joe broke up with me, it was in fact the opposite problem that bothered him--our physical interaction drove him wild (even though we never had anything that could be called "sex")...but he did not feel we got along.

 

Oh well.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you Marsh for sharing the details. I appreciate it.

[icarus27]

Hi Marsh,

I understand technically that one always has a choice, but do they really? In this case, if I haven't found a guy on my own, have major issues with the mainstream dating rules, can't get along with the business mentality in arranged market, what choice am I left with?

 

Marsh, I have to agree with this point of Tinu's. I disagree with you that "one always has a choice".

 

You have said this to me in a past thread, that the man's choice is he can accept the deal he is being given, or he can 'take a hike'. To you as the female, it seems you are giving the man a choice - from the man's point of view this is a so-called Hobson's choice, where one option seems so unreasonable that only the other (walking away and being alone) is possible.

 

For a moment, we will spare ourselves all the wise words that are often said about the benefits of enjoying life single. I have heard them, and moreover, I agree with a lot of it. The fact remains, for a person (man or woman) focussed on building a meaningful bond with a partner, the advice that you always have a choice to walk away from people gets us no nearer to the goal. Theoretically, after 20 years, and walking away from 50 people, the person will find themselves bewildered as to what the hell happened to their life.

 

I read your piece about how to screen for men who want something meaningful. And I have to say, your ideas about showing the man that he is loved and desired are right on the mark - that is what a good man wants, even if it does not include the physical act.

 

But, I have tried really hard to understand if there is any way your thinking could be applied to an (Indian) man's situation. And just to be clear, let us say this is an Indian/Asian man like myself who is urbane enough to get on easily with European / American women. When he also doesn't want meaningless sex, rather, an emotional bond that may/may not include sex.

And I cannot think of a way.

 

Your screening works / worked because the onus is on the man to pursue, the onus is on the woman to resist, verify and let the man in if he measures up. That's just the beginning of it ....

if I claimed to have little experience (as you did), but with women: not many girlfriends, this makes me a social leper

if I claimed to wait until marriage, there's immediately a question mark over my virility ("if thousands of other Indian men are f***ing around, what's wrong with him?")

if I claim to be religious, I'm immediately a terrorist and/or wife-beater (from an Islamic background)

if I give her sensual massages, but then claim I won't go all the way, I'm a jerk who's giving out mixed messages

 

I could go on and on.

All that was just a treatment of the matter of sex. What about screening women who are using men to get over their last relationship? Or, let's make this even more laughable: where would I be if on my dates, I claimed that I am looking for a deeper connection - so fancy restaurants, over-priced dates are not my style - I like going for walks, cooking together, that kind of thing? I would be laughed out of town. The fact is, the moment I ask any of these hard but necessary questions, I will be thrown into the bin of rejects.

 

You might say to me, So what? Good riddance to these women.

I say the same, but then I remain alone while these women play the field, get what they want and live happily ever after. (Tinu knows this story: One (Brit-Indian) woman who I refused to date because she was rebounding like crazy, emailed me out of the blue two years later to 'rub it in' and tell me that she had married a rebound.

 

On a deeper level, sure, you as an Indian-American woman are free to be creative about they way you interpret your culture's advice against pre-marital sex. You've done it in a way that allows you to be true to what you feel, and yet satisfy the guy. Very few of us Asians/Indians (and certainly not males) get an opportunity to even get to that place where a woman will wait patiently while we nurture the relationship in other ways.

 

So I think what's been troubling me for a couple of days is this: although you're from a Hindu(?) background and that made me relate at first, your case is probably so individual that there is less and less that a guy like me can learn from it. Plus when married or attached people tell me how the world works, or "how it all worked out for them", there is a rebellious part of me that wants to shakethe smugness out of them (Note: that is my problem, not yours!!) Most of all, they have the utterly unpredictable element of luck. With it, you have what you have; without it, you may have done all the good things that you are writing about, and still ended up as alone as myself. And just like me, you would have wondered how you have stood by your principles and life has given you nothing for it.

[LAYAAN]

I discovered today that there is a feature on the matrimonial website where I can complain about this person. His profile is still up. I'm considering sending an email to the matrimonial website to complain about his behavior.

[penelope13]

Tinu, I really don't understand you:

a) this has been quite some time ago, yet you still feel so much resentment that you feel the need for some kind of revenge?

b) what do you expect the website to do about this? You agreed to travel to him, you didn't insist on him sending you money for the ticket in advance. - The meeting didn't work out to your satisfaction. What has the website to do with this?

c) why are you even on that site currently?

[LAYAAN]

Penny, I'm not on that site. A friend who was on that site told me about this feature. I looked it up. I have been their previous customer and I pulled my profile off for a reason. You dont' need an account to browse through that website. I dont' have an active account anymore. I couldn't read his profile, but I can see his picture.

Sure, it has been some time ago, but this man should me made accountable for his actions. Yes, I agreed to travel to him. Yes, I didn't insist on getting money before I booked my ticket. Yes, I accept my fault. But I agreed to fly because he said he will reimburse me money. The night before I left for the airport he said "I am eager to meet you" blah blah. Hence I didn't cancel my travel. He lied to me. I didn't like that. He really didn't want to meet me and that is okay. I dont' have a problem with that. But he lied to me the night before I left otherwise I was going to cancel my ticket. I would have lost only $150. I went to meet him after he said all those things I wanted to hear and I ended up losing $700. I understand that the outcome of the trip is not in my hands. I get that completely. But he really wasn't interested in me. If he would have just ignored my call that would be more helpful.

 

I had to ask my mom for money so I could pay off my trip. All this has caused me aggravation. So noone else ends up in same situation again. They won't pull his profile down just with one complaint, but if enough complains reach them they will shut his account down. Such people should not be there.

 

See how this experience is costing me -

Another man asked me to meet.

I said "sure. You can fly to my place or you can buy me ticket so I can fly to your place."

He said "sure. Go ahead and buy a ticket. I will pay you back when we meet."

I said "I'm sorry. I don't have enough money to pay for the ticket entirely without getting into debt. I'm a student. Can you please send me a ticket or can you send me a check for half price of the ticket?"

He told his mom "The girl is too money-minded. I was going to pay her when we met, but she wouldn't trust me."

Now you tell me what am I supposed to do? I used to trust people until the Chicago incidence. Now I've stopped trusting men. I know nothing about this Chicago guy other than his phone number. Its scary. He looks like a 45 year old guy. Who knows if he is already married and doing this to trick women.

[Batya33]

I would never trust a stranger to reimburse me for a plane ticket. It's not about "trusting men" it's about common sense.

[LAYAAN]

Yes. I thought about it. Turns out I didn't have common sense. Learned the hard way. Talked to my mom today. She said that it was my fault. Its not the chicago guy's fault for not being a kind, nice, and honest person. She said I had to learn the lesson by losing money for it to stick. She said just what Penny said "Its been too long, just let it go. If you have really learned anything from this, you will not repeat this mistake again." This sucks.