How important is the RING?!

[girlfriday]

The story:

 

BF and I have been in a serious relationship for a 1 year and a couple months now. At the beginning of 2010 we decided that it was a good idea for me to move in with him. I wouldn't call it a complete move in as most of my belongings are still at "home" but it made life easier to have my day-to-day things there and my "space" there. We never talked about rent or anything and I do all the grocery shopping/household shopping. Those things never really mattered too much and that how and it's never been an issue. I think we both know how much I can contribute at this point in life and that both of us are being pretty fair. I work FT time but I will be attending FT school very soon. PT work will be hard to find but I am determined to make it work somehow - it's very important to me to go back to school. I'm committed to that.

 

We have discussed marriage to a certain degree. We both have expressed numerous times and in depth about how we feel about lifelong commitment to each other. It's a positive and we don't have doubts. I have never felt this way about any guy in my relationships. I've never WANTED to marry anyone or even WANTED marriage that much. But with him, I feel like it's the right thing to do. To create that bond because it will make us a family even without children. Now, we spoke about this months ago. Probably in October of 2009. I felt that it exposed a great deal of my attachment to him. By admitting to him I wanted to spend forever with him, I felt that it exposed my loyalty, my trust etc. It made be feel a little vulnerable. I'm not sure what it is I need from our relationship to be able to allow myself to think of our marriage etc etc., without telling myself NOT TO THINK about it until I see a ring. The ring issue: We never really talked about it in depth. I honestly don't care for an expensive ring. I don't need something that will break his bank. I would still feel at peace though if he at least gave me a ring.

 

The problem is: I don't WANT to feel like this. I don't want to pressure him or nag him. I really haven't so far. I believe his words and his emotions and I know everything he tells me is true. I have no doubts. We have a wonderful relationship and even though nothing is perfect we are great at working things out. I know he is committed to me. I think part of me is just being a girl - wanting to see a ring..........and I sort of hate myself for that. I am patient. I'm not even in a rush to get married. I think the other part is that I want to see that his words aren't just words as much as I do believe in them. I have been told by many men they want to marry me and there was no ring or promise. It was and cowardly words I felt. Like I said, I believe everything he says. I see his honesty + his heart. I would even be fine with never getting married BUT since we both want it and believe in it...I want to be able to see it somehow.

 

I just want some advice on how to just let things be. I am pretty independent as a girl and I don't rely on him for happiness.

 

Has anyone been in this situation? What do I do? How to I basically stay calm about everything knowing that it WILL WORK OUT anyway...?

[hexaemeron]

If your relationship isn't broke, GF, don't fix it. A ring isn't going to do anything to your relationship. If he treats you well, and you love each other and share mutual respect, what the hell difference does a piece of jewelry make other than "LOOK AT MY BLING?!"

[FathomFear]

The whole "the ring" thing is a comsumerist tradition propagated by diamond companies. In reality, you don't deserve a ring any more than your boyfriend. Don't let it invade your psyche so much that you lose sight of what's really important.

[girlfriday]

If your relationship isn't broke, GF, don't fix it. A ring isn't going to do anything to your relationship. If he treats you well, and you love each other and share mutual respect, what the hell difference does a piece of jewelry make other than "LOOK AT MY BLING?!"

 

I know you are right. Like I said, I don't actually care about the stupid ring. It's more like I feel like I am so committed to him and I know he is too - but why are we still going on like BF/GF's? The ring to me simply represents that his words are real as much as mine are real to him.

 

I don't know. Slap me in the face or something because I don't like being this "girl" lol/

[TechResQ]

girlfriday, I know exactly how you feel. It isn't about the bling, it's about the committment. I am in the same boat. I've been burned in the past. The ring is just a symbol of his committment and promise to you, true, but it goes deeper than that. I do know how you feel. I am in the same boat. I think/know men view it differently. It's really NOT just a piece of jewelry, it goes much deeper.

 

I, like you, don't ever push the issue with my SO, but it is always in the back of my stupid head.

[beep.boop]

How to I basically stay calm about everything knowing that it WILL WORK OUT anyway...?

 

Girl, the only things that are certain in life are death and taxes. If you have love, hold on to it and be grateful. I'm in a very similar situation as you, and I want to marry my guy. I think that a ring would be nice, but it is only symbolic of the love/commitment that you already have, it doesn't act as a glue or a safety guard. Love can never be entirely proven, it's not like science.

When he is ready, he will give you a ring. Anchor yourself in the present moment, enjoy it to the fullest, and let things flow in their natural course, without judgment and fear. Don't worry about the future, it will come in time.

[girlfriday]

girlfriday, I know exactly how you feel. It isn't about the bling, it's about the committment. I am in the same boat. I've been burned in the past. The ring is just a symbol of his committment and promise to you, true, but it goes deeper than that. I do know how you feel. I am in the same boat. I think/know men view it differently. It's really NOT just a piece of jewelry, it goes much deeper.

 

I, like you, don't ever push the issue with my SO, but it is always in the back of my stupid head.

 

It drives me a little crazy because he has talked about how he thinks I would like to be proposed to and I have told him, I've never thought much about it because I never thought/dreamed about marriage.

 

I told him I don't want a fancy formal proposal. I'd much rather we talk about it. Which we have. I AM SO CONFUSED. He has asked me "If I asked you to be my wife what would your answer be?" And I told him..."Well, I think you know and it would be NO" I think he's afraid of officially asking and me saying no. We have an age gap relationships so part of his apprehensions about serious commitments was that I was younger and probably didn't want to be married. But I do...to him though. It's exclusive to him.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

Moving in with someone does not necessarily mean engagement and marriage, no matter how much a person talks. Big difference between talking and doing. You have three choices: move out and live on your own and continue to date him; move out and live on your own and break up with him; continue to live with him and accept that he may never get to the point where he gets engaged to you, or, he might decide to officially get engaged to you at some point but you just won't know what his time frame is. In other words, you can't force an engagement out of him, but you can make choices on how long you will wait before you move out or end the relationship.

[girlfriday]

Moving in with someone does not necessarily mean engagement and marriage, no matter how much a person talks. Big difference between talking and doing. You have three choices: move out and live on your own and continue to date him; move out and live on your own and break up with him; continue to live with him and accept that he may never get to the point where he gets engaged to you, or, he might decide to officially get engaged to you at some point but you just won't know what his time frame is. In other words, you can't force an engagement out of him, but you can make choices on how long you will wait before you move out or end the relationship.

 

Yes, I have thought about those things before I even "moved in". We are really happy being together. We have our own lives and goals and such and I think moving out is silly in our case.

 

I am pretty okay with him taking a while to be married...I wouldn't mind a long engagement. As much as I trust his commitment to me (I really do, not just saying it) I want his actions (and the simplest one to prove is buy a ring) to be as true as his words.

[abitbroken]

I know you are right. Like I said, I don't actually care about the stupid ring. It's more like I feel like I am so committed to him and I know he is too - but why are we still going on like BF/GF's? The ring to me simply represents that his words are real as much as mine are real to him.

 

I don't know. Slap me in the face or something because I don't like being this "girl" lol/

 

You say you 'don't want to feel this way' - well you have every right to! And please don't be ashmed to feel that way. A lot of self help books and mags tell us girls are needy and shouldn't pressure guys but to me, what you are looking for is not a mere bauble. I am sure you would be happy if the ring was even inexpensive or if there was no engagement ring and just a wdding band. There is difference between a man (or woman) expressing something general and vague wanting to "be with you" etcetera and doing it. When a man asks a woman to marry him, its a declaration of his love, commitment, and devotion. Sure, there are some that ascribe to the belief that "its the little things" and you should be happy for the things he does for you - but you are not someone in the beginning of dating and wondering if "he loves you or not." This is beyond that.

 

I stuffed it for years with a man I lived with. I was mystified at friends who got married and apparently, they did talk about it together before it happened. I just thought a guy asked and it was like being hit on the head - the girl never had a clue. I would talk about marriage more. When it comes up naturally in conversation, don't just say "someday we will be married". Say hey honey, what timeframe are you thinking about? Do you see us married or engaged soon within the year or do you see it as something happening a few years down the road?" That is not saying "give me the ring or else". Honestly, maybe you should have had that conversation before moving in but it is what it is.

 

I have a boyfriend now who has asked me very clearly about kids, what I thought about different aspects of weddings, etc, etc. We both clearly know that we both don't want kids until after marriage and all sorts of other things. There is no question about that he wants to marry me and I him. I know what he is waiting for. I know that he is renovating his house and wants it more done. He knows that I have a bill I want to pay off, but am open to be asked at any time. I have an honest feeling that he will wait til his stuff is done before asking. But I have a very clear idea and its better than getting hit on the head proverbially speaking.

 

With my ex, he did want to marry me, but we never talked about it really. - because he was not financially ready he didn't encourage the idea. I had no idea but he wanted to own a home before asking me. So I waited for about 7 years before he popped the question and by that time was a little weary about things. If I had known what his goal was, I could have said "you don't need to own a home - we can rent" or I could have owned a home together with him because maybe he needed both of our incomes to qualify earlier (and we would have married).

 

I guess what I am saying is that its not just HIS future, it is yours too. You are entitled to know what his thoughts are about it. Some guys wait until they have passed a certain milestone to do it and if you know what it is, you will be on better footing knowing that its not something that you are doing wrong. I think the relationship with me ex was damaged - thre was a lot of belief that I had a lot of hurdles to cross and improvement to make.

[abitbroken]

Yes, I have thought about those things before I even "moved in". We are really happy being together. We have our own lives and goals and such and I think moving out is silly in our case.

 

I am pretty okay with him taking a while to be married...I wouldn't mind a long engagement. As much as I trust his commitment to me (I really do, not just saying it) I want his actions (and the simplest one to prove is buy a ring) to be as true as his words.

 

One thing to consider - the "separate lives" thing. This can get sticky if you go to living together with no clear plans for marriage to marriage versus living apart and then marriage. When you are married - and working towards it while engaged, there has to be a "we" and an "us" - not just two separate lives bound together by a bed. Many goals become joint, or at least haromonious goals. I think that is part of what you are feeling too or maybe not - maybe engagement is a statement for an "us" versus a "why fix it"?

[girlfriday]

I think perhaps you know exactly what I'm feeling!

I don't think moving in was a real big issue as my address is still at my home and most of my things are there. I can really pack and leave in a day and it's okay. It simply made logical sense for me to stay with him. It was his idea first and took me a couple months to want it too.

 

It isn't just a bauble. I don't even like diamonds so he wouldn't have to spend much anyway.

 

I think we are both going through some things in life that maybe he feels he doesn't want to ask. I know for a fact he doesn't want a long engagement so if he asked we would be married in a year or 1.5 max. I think I would be totally fine with a 2 or 3 year engagement (kind of silly right?!). He's doing a startup business now and I think he wants to see it be more stable. He also wants us to have a place together that isn't "his". It would be ours essentially. All the things he "wants" is for us...they aren't selfish goals. I also think he wants me to finish school (it's only 1 year). I suppose I could ask what time frame he has in mind but I need to make it clear that it's not because it's an ultimatum. It's fair for me to know too!

[girlfriday]

One thing to consider - the "separate lives" thing. This can get sticky if you go to living together with no clear plans for marriage to marriage versus living apart and then marriage. When you are married - and working towards it while engaged, there has to be a "we" and an "us" - not just two separate lives bound together by a bed. Many goals become joint, or at least haromonious goals. I think that is part of what you are feeling too or maybe not - maybe engagement is a statement for an "us" versus a "why fix it"?

 

I guess I should clarify what I mean by own lives and goals.

 

We are both ambitious and naturally we have our goals. I have school soon and it ends in less than a year. I will be done before 2010 even ends. I intend to pursue my own business. He is in a startup now and focuses on that. However, we have talked about how our goals will effect each other. They are all positive things. It's harmonious in ways and we can even help each other out because our industries will be related to one another.

 

And yes, I do want it formally to be 'us' now.

[FathomFear]

You say you 'don't want to feel this way' - well you have every right to! And please don't be ashmed to feel that way. A lot of self help books and mags tell us girls are needy and shouldn't pressure guys but to me, what you are looking for is not a mere bauble.

 

Any time any of us associate a feeling (such as commitment) with a consumerist gesture (such as buying a ring) we should be skeptical. It's not "natural" per se. It's a social construction that can be traced back to a very clear time in history.

 

Look, no one is denying that commitment is important. But commitment can be expressed without dumping money on an object. A guy doesn't need to dump money on a ring no more than you need to dump money on a ring. It's just a stupid social convention born from marketing campaigns during a time when the man was typically the only one with a real income. Trust me--if women had sizable incomes during that time, you would have been targeted too. We'd probably see lots of threads by guys stressing over when and if they'd receive their "engagements cars", or something equally as foolish.

[penelope13]

Why do only women have a right to expect a proof of sincerity? If men are to be expected to believe women solely based on their words that they are serious about a relationship and the long term commitment, then women should be equally able to do so without needing a ring (or formal proposal).

 

I find these kind of reasonings: oh he must know how I feel about him, but I want to know for sure that he is serious despite how well he treats me kind of insulting to men.

 

Sorry, just my humble personal opinion.

[girlfriday]

Any time any of us associate a feeling (such as commitment) with a consumerist gesture (such as buying a ring) we should be skeptical. It's not "natural" per se. It's a social construction that can be traced back to a very clear time in history.

 

Look, no one is denying that commitment is important. But commitment can be expressed without dumping money on an object. A guy doesn't need to dump money on a ring no more than you need to dump money on a ring. It's just a stupid social convention born from marketing campaigns during a time when the man was typically the only one with a real income. Trust me--if women had sizable incomes during that time, you would have been targeted too. We'd probably see lots of threads by guys stressing over when and if they'd receive their "engagements cars", or something equally as foolish.

 

LOL engagement cars.

 

Well, I'm not sure if this directed at my perceptions or not but it's not about the money spent on the ring. What it represents is honestly the words align with the actions. By ACTIONS it can be anything that shows commitment - like getting married even without a ring. (Signing papers etc) That's a lot more difficult to go through at the moment. A ring is the simplest way to show that.....

 

It's the union of two individuals. The agreement to share your life. Honestly, I wouldn't NEED a ring. It would mean just at much if his form of commitment was to put my name on the deed on where we live. Of course, that stuff is a little more "difficult". A ring seems simple....

[girlfriday]

Why do only women have a right to expect a proof of sincerity? If men are to be expected to believe women solely based on their words that they are serious about a relationship and the long term commitment, then women should be equally able to do so without needing a ring (or formal proposal).

 

I find these kind of reasonings: oh he must know how I feel about him, but I want to know for sure that he is serious despite how well he treats me kind of insulting to men.

 

Sorry, just my humble personal opinion.

 

I do agree with you. I sincerely do.

But it depends on the dynamic of the relationship. I am not in a relationship where my man would want me to "give" him something to show my commitment. It's hard to explain but it would be like taking a part of his role. And I'm not going to defend women's rights here and all...I am independent but that doesn't mean I enjoy having some aspects of a gender-binding roles as does he.

 

Some people aren't these people and some are. To each their own!

 

=)!

[FathomFear]

I do agree with you. I sincerely do.

But it depends on the dynamic of the relationship. I am not in a relationship where my man would want me to "give" him something to show my commitment. It's hard to explain but it would be like taking a part of his role. And I'm not going to defend women's rights here and all...I am independent but that doesn't mean I enjoy having some aspects of a gender-binding roles as does he.

 

And that ultimately is the problem. Many modern women want (and rightfully deserve) all the benefits of being regarded as a fully equal human beings under the law. But at the same time some women still "enjoy" old conventions which were born from a time when they were not equal, when they were regarded as "prizes" that men compete over. You really can't have it both ways, IMO. It's like being "against slavery" but "enjoying" some of the benefits of that institution. It doesn't fly.

 

It sounds harsh but I never hesitate to hammer this point with my straight female friends. Because honestly, you're not delicate flowers. You're not princesses. You're not a prize to be won. You're a human being who has to met the same standards of commitment as everyone else, male or female.

 

We all need to do our best to see past antiquated social conventions. Especially when they are very stepped in consumerism and outdated gender roles.

[girlfriday]

While I see your views, I don't really think that you can generalize every woman this way.

 

I used to believe that if you're a so-called independent woman than you should be equal in everything in the relationship. I was in a relationship like that before for a few years. I thought it was right but it wasn't for me.

 

While I am happy to contribute to a life together (finances etc) there are somethings that my bf likes doing and some things I like doing. It has nothing to do with how "independent" we are or if the woman is the prize. Yes, it has hints of old-school traditionalism in it but it isn't in any way an UNFAIR agreement if both people like it and want it.

 

A few examples: My bf was in a relationship with exactly that woman you described. She wanted to make her own independent decisions when it pleased her but she also expected him to essentially "take care of her". That to me is an unequal relationship. She is taking more than she's giving which is fine if you're not actually expecting it. She would want to go places and have him take her. He also had to be responsible for her dinner every night. She didn't cook and neither did he but for some reason HE had to always make sure she was fed well.

 

Another example,

 

My bf enjoys doing the household things like fixing things and installing things. I am totally capable of doing my own thing and I have when he was away. However, I like that he wants to do it because he feels like it's part of "taking care" of us. I enjoy to cook for us because of the same reason. He likes to make breakfast for me every morning. These things might be considered "unequal" to some people for us it works. Now, if he was the sort of guy that wanted us to wear engagement rings (whatever I am making up a tangible gift) I would gladly give him that.

[penelope13]

So why don't you propose to him instead?

[girlfriday]

So why don't you propose to him instead?

 

Well, he's made it clear to me he wants to do the proposing. I told him I don't want a formal crazy proposal. I'd much rather we talk about it and agree and simply have some sign of that commitment.

[smickly]

Another thing to consider about a ring, is that it's a public sign of commitment, where it is widely understood to mean you are planning to marry each other.

 

While being on the deed of his house, is a sign of commitment, it's not as clearly recognized by everyone else as a marriage sign. You don't get to talk about it the same way, you don't get to plan for weddings. Decisions that effect you jointly, aren't as clear... do you do what's right for you, or what's right for us. If you have two very contradictory choices it's hard to choose the 'us' if there is no formal engagement.

 

I don't need a ring or a formal proposal. I'd be happy with a serious discussion where we both agree we are ready to prepare for marriage, start planning, start making decisions that are right for us, but most importantly I want to TELL people, that we've made this commitment.

[girlfriday]

Precisely.

[girlfriday]

An update:

 

I had a brief chat about this when we were in bed yesterday. I asked what do you see us doing in the next two years? His response was aligned with mine (in terms of goals for our respective businesses) and he said he sees us being married but he doesn't know what sort of wedding we should have. I told him he has to talk about these thoughts with me because I'm part of that future and it's fair that I know too. He then asked me what I see happening and I was pretty much on the same page however, I mentioned buying a place in a year or year and half and and getting married. He said he saw that happening sooner than that............I don't know. We will have to talk about it while we aren't falling asleep!

[penelope13]

He has to go through all these things without having a sign from you to show off to the world. If men are intellectually capable of doing so, why shouldn't a woman be able in the same way.

 

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with wanting the traditional proposal, but let's all be honest about the motivation and the imbalance between the genders.