Amazing First Date... so now what?

[GernBlanston]

I think a man hearing from a woman after a first or second date - whether it's by telegram (which happened to a close friend of mine - they were married after that for 20 years!), skywriting, phone or text - gives the impression to the man of "wow she contacted me - she must really like me"

This, of course, is an impression that women must avoid giving men. If a man was given the impression that a woman really likes him, that would be just terrible.

[ycmanvs]

It's a shame you've let yourself be convinced by women like Batya33 who like to tell this story about men. Admittedly, there may be some men who like to chase, but there are as many, or many more, that don't. Perpetuating this misconception about men is not about ensuring that men are more comfortable in the initial stages of dating. It's about ensuring that women are more comfortable. It's a way to justify not asking men out and therefore to avoid the risk of being directly rejected by men. Don't get me wrong. It's not that I want all women to ask men out and no men to ask women out. This is just a call for honesty about our motivations and a hope that this particular message about men will be exposed as a convenient falsehood.

 

I have never been able to play the game. If I like someone, I tell them. This has never been a problem in getting dates or having long term relationships. Every single man I know feels that a woman should show interest in the initial stages.

[GernBlanston]

I have never been able to play the game. If I like someone, I tell them.

And that's just one of the reasons why you're great.

[ycmanvs]

And that's just one of the reasons why you're great.

 

Also, one of the reasons why I am now dating a wonderful man, who thought....after our first date that I was not really interested, until I called him a few days later and TOLD HIM that I would like to see him again.

[lady00]

Also, one of the reasons why I am now dating a wonderful man, who thought....after our first date that I was not really interested, until I called him a few days later and TOLD HIM that I would like to see him again.

 

I think if a guy is turned off by a simple post date thank you then he probably wasn't that interested in the first place, or he has assumed something negative for which there is no evidence, in which case I don't view it as a loss...instead it's just eliminating someone who is not a good match.

[ycmanvs]

I think if a guy is turned off by a simple post date thank you then he probably wasn't that interested in the first place, or he has assumed something negative for which there is no evidence, in which case I don't view it as a loss...instead it's just eliminating someone who is not a good match.

 

I texted him that I had a great time after the date, but he thought I was just being polite, so I had to actually call him a few days later to let him know that I wanted a second date. We've had a great time since.

[Batya33]

I think if a guy is turned off by a simple post date thank you then he probably wasn't that interested in the first place, or he has assumed something negative for which there is no evidence, in which case I don't view it as a loss...instead it's just eliminating someone who is not a good match.

 

Well, no he might have been somewhat on the fence in those early stages when first impressions are still forming - he might be trying to choose between two different women, or more. My sense is that most women send the follow up thank you when they are not sure of the man's level of interest in them and are insecure. To me that's a time to be a little more restrained. I've sent a thank you email when I forgot to say thank you (meaning if we had to rush back to work after meeting or something like that) but otherwise it's common knowledge that a woman who sends a follow up thank you most likely is doing that because she wants to 'remind" the man to ask her out again (with exceptions of course). And in the competitive dating world, especially in the early dating stages, I don't think that's a productive impression to make.

 

I also told every guy I was interested in that I liked him - sometimes the telling was in actions on the date,sometimes it was with the enthusiasm in which I accepted a second date, sometimes I told him, depending on the situation - but I didn't feel the need to lay all my cards out on the table on a first or second date because my motivation in doing so would have been out of insecurity, which starts at some point to be selfish as far as thinking of yourself rather than whether the other person is ready to handle that degree of sharing of emotions.

 

When someone doesn't know you well and you don't know them, telling them "I like you a lot" rather than just showing through actions can be a bit much to handle and might come off as clingy. Why take the risk when there are so many other ways to show you like a person and are interested in getting to know him better?

 

THe main reason I know my approach worked so well was not that I married a wonderful man - it's because throughout my loonnnngg dating/relationship experences (I think about 25 years) I rarely had negativity about men or relationships - and when I did it was very short lived. I had many male friends, met lots of interesting people on dates, had several successful long term relationships and in general was treated with respect and like a lady -- and I treated men with respect as well, because I genuinely liked meeting and getting to know men in all different ways - friends, colleagues, boyfriends, etc. Those women I knew who were the main pursuers in their relationships typically ended up not being treated well and/or in casual sex arrangements they settled for (or they "tested" men with games but from a negative perspective), and typically ended up vey bitter about men at the latest by age 30 and often earlier. I had more than my fair share of rejections, disappointments, frustrations, but my approach meant that the men I ended up getting serious with treated me properly.

[Batya33]

I texted him that I had a great time after the date, but he thought I was just being polite, so I had to actually call him a few days later to let him know that I wanted a second date. We've had a great time since.

 

What I find so confusing is if your goal was to be direct, why just let him know you wanted a second date? Why not just call him and ask hm out on a second date and skip the whole "I wanted to let you know I am interested and would say yes if you asked me" - I find that pretty indirect - unless I'm mistaken and you asked him out for the date.

[ycmanvs]

What I find so confusing is if your goal was to be direct, why just let him know you wanted a second date? Why not just call him and ask hm out on a second date and skip the whole "I wanted to let you know I am interested and would say yes if you asked me" - I find that pretty indirect - unless I'm mistaken and you asked him out for the date.

 

I called and left a message that I wanted him to call me back so we could arrange for a second date. He called me back within an hour and we made plans for the second date.

[GernBlanston]

Those women I knew who were the main pursuers in their relationships typically ended up not being treated well and/or in casual sex arrangements they settled for (or they "tested" men with games but from a negative perspective), and typically ended up vey bitter about men at the latest by age 30 and often earlier.

That's interesting. Let's also consider cases where women were not the main pursuers in their relationships, but ended up not being treated well and/or in casual sex arrangements they settled for. I'm quite sure that this happens far more often than similar situations where the woman was the main pursuer. Why not then conclude that it's better for women to be the pursuer, since there are so many more suboptimal relationships when they aren't? Of course, that's simply because there are so many more instances of a men being the pursuer to begin with, so that conclusion makes no sense based on the premises.

 

I don't understand how you can't see that your reasoning is flawed.

 

Also, I haven't missed your implication that testing men with games from a "positive" perspective is different from testing them from a "negative" perspective. As much as it serves you to deny it, we can see through-and-through that you're interested in playing games to test men.

[jenny_mcs]

 

Also, I haven't missed your implication that testing men with games from a "positive" perspective is different from testing them from a "negative" perspective. As much as it serves you to deny it, we can see through-and-through that you're interested in playing games to test men.

 

Have to say I disagree. I see nothing advocating game playing in Batya's advice to the OP. Obviously Batya's advice to the OP bothers you, and I am guessing it's because you have written about your problems asking women out, and you wish that women asked men out, therefore relieving you of that societal expectation.

 

From my own experience, I agree with Batya's advice. I have seen girlfriends of mine pursue guys, ask guys out, initiate a lot of contact in the beginning, and it has never worked out. Of course I realize there is a different perspective- women on this very thread are posting about it, but in the end I post about what has worked for me, and people I know personally. And in these early days of dating, what has worked for me, and my friends is along the lines of what Batya is posting.

[absinthe]

dolcedolore, what personality type are you and what's the personality type of this man?

 

If you pursue a man who enjoys doing the pursuing, this will kill interest, especially after only one date.

If you don't pursue a man who needs to be pursued by women, this will kill interest.

 

So, ultimately, what kind of personality type are you? Are you comfortable pursuing men or does it make you feel uncomfortable? Take the choice that best suits your personality type and the kind of man you want.

[GernBlanston]

Have to say I disagree. I see nothing advocating game playing in Batya's advice to the OP. Obviously Batya's advice to the OP bothers you, and I am guessing it's because you have written about your problems asking women out, and you wish that women asked men out, therefore relieving you of that societal expectation.

I have no illusions that a woman would ever ask me out, even if it were much more common for women to do the asking. That's a cheap shot and is not the source of my motivation here. But, that's beside the point of the discussion. By the way, I see that you've slipped, here, and acknowledged that men asking women out is simply a societal expectation rather than the only way relationships can begin.

 

From my own experience, I agree with Batya's advice. I have seen girlfriends of mine pursue guys, ask guys out, initiate a lot of contact in the beginning, and it has never worked out. Of course I realize there is a different perspective- women on this very thread are posting about it, but in the end I post about what has worked for me, and people I know personally. And in these early days of dating, what has worked for me, and my friends is along the lines of what Batya is posting.

I would ask you the same question I asked Batya33 a few weeks ago - how many examples do you have of women asking men out? I'll repost a comment I made in another thread illustrating my point.

 

Suppose a man asks out 100 women. Perhaps 50 will accept his invitation. Perhaps 30 will not have second thoughts and actually go on the date. Perhaps 10 will go on additional dates. Perhaps a couple will continue to be ongoing relationships. Are those two times he asked a woman out to be considered exceptions? Maybe so, though I understand this is often how dating works for men who tend to ask women out. Looking at the numbers, asking women out appears to be a somewhat "ineffective" way for a man to find a long-term relationship.

 

So, rather than review your misleading claims of experience again, let me ask you some different questions. How many cases are you aware of in which a woman asked out a man? Of those, how many became long-term relationships? How many cases are you aware of in which a man asked out a woman? Of those, how many became long-term relationships? Let's look at the comparative percentages.

[dolcedolore]

So, ultimately, what kind of personality type are you? Are you comfortable pursuing men or does it make you feel uncomfortable? Take the choice that best suits your personality type and the kind of man you want.

 

I actually am pretty confident. I've never asked a guy out, but I have asked for a guy's number. I am a feminist, so it can be hard for me when I'm told that women and men have certain roles and should stick to them.

 

Before the actual date, we talked some online. I looked back at my messages and realized that I was the one who sent the message saying stuff like, I'm so glad it's the weekend and I don't have anything to do. Then asked if he had any fun plans. I really wasn't trying to imply that he should ask me out, just making conversation since it was almost the weekend... but after reading what I wrote, I think that's what I implied! Anyway, he responded right away to that message and asked me out and took me out on the date. Oh man... I just looked back at other messages and realized that I did initiate a lot without even realizing it. He did the actual asking, but I did indirect things (not even on purpose). Is it possible that he's waiting for me to break the ice? At the end of the date, he even said he was surprised I drove out to see him and that he wasn't sure until I showed up whether or not I was just messing with him. Then we both left awkwardly with no future plans. hmm...

[absinthe]

So...what that means, is that it's up to you to leave a gaping wide opening for him and he'll jump in with both feet. Technically, lead him to water and see if he drinks.

[Batya33]

Gem - I don't want to debate with you because you set up these straw men and personally attack me, misinterpret and twist my posts to suit your own agenda, and claim that I think I am right each and every time I just state my opinion on what has worked for me in the dating and relationship world.

 

So, even though there are some interesting questions and issues you raise, includng ones that potentially could help the OP decide what to do in this situation, they are so buried in these personal attacks and constant misreading of my posts that I can't separate out what I can legitimately respond to (and when I attempt to, your response is again full of the personal attacks and we're back to square one).

 

I don't need to be right - I'd actually be happier to be wrong because I found it rather easy to ask men out and would have been far more comfortable than doing all the waiting I did and practicing self-restraint with an eye toward the long term goal rather than short term gratification. But, as far as helping the OP, I learned, and confirmed many times over, that being the main "pursuer" simply wasn't effective if the woman wanted a healthy and long term relationshp. But for me it's not about right or wrong, it's about giving advice based on my opinion. You seem to be ignoring that goal in your responses and I am really not sure why, because it's very important that the OP understand it's just one opinion of various ones.

 

Feel free to respond but please don't take my non-response as any agreement with what you write about my posts or me - my non-response is simply just a way of keeping the peace and avoiding needless confrontation that will lead to nowhere, and especially will not help the OP.

[GernBlanston]

Gem - I don't want to debate with you because you set up these straw men and personally attack me, misinterpret and twist my posts to suit your own agenda, and claim that I think I am right each and every time I just state my opinion on what has worked for me in the dating and relationship world.

You're right. My example you quoted did amount to a straw man. That wasn't good form on my part. I'd like to restate, though, that I think your conclusions are based on a unnecessarily biased sample of the available data.

 

I'd actually be happier to be wrong because I found it rather easy to ask men out and would have been far more comfortable than doing all the waiting I did and practicing self-restraint with an eye toward the long term goal rather than short term gratification.

But you said before that you'd only asked out 6 men. While it was easy to do, I suppose you found it to be ineffective and gave up after only 6 attempts. What would be your advice for a man who decides to give up after asking out only 6 women?

 

I'm still interested in your response to this:

How many cases are you aware of in which a woman asked out a man? Of those, how many became long-term relationships? How many cases are you aware of in which a man asked out a woman? Of those, how many became long-term relationships? Let's look at the comparative percentages.

How do you conclude that each individual case of a woman asking out a man is any less effective at creating a long-term relationship than each individual case of a man asking out a woman?

[Batya33]

I didn't give up based on asking out 6 men - that was a small part of it - it was from the ample indirect experience I had with the hundreds (at least) of people I knew who were also dating and in relationships, as well as everything I read, heard and observed about what was effective to find a long term relationship

 

What I do know is that a man asking out a woman might not be effective to start a long term relationship, but it won't hurt the chances of forming one the way it almost always will (with exceptions of course) if the woman asks out the man and especially if she does more of the asking (or even half of the asking) in the very beginning of the dating relationship. Sorry if you misunderstood my point. It is very effective for a woman who wants to casually date someone, or who wants a fling, or who definitely wants to be the main pursuer throughout the relationship - she wants a man who she can control from day one and who will be mostly passive - then it is effective for the woman to do more of the asking and indeed, she should do more of the asking. And no the reverse isn't true - the woman who allows the man to do more of the asking in the beginning isn't establishing a submissive role for herself because at this point in society from what I know that's the norm of how things work and the man won't expect the woman to be submissive just because he did more of the asking/calling/initiating in the very beginning.

 

What we both agree on is that things should change and be more balanced. But that is not one of my causes - not because I benefited from the way things are (it was the opposite - it was difficult for me to operate within the norm I described) but because I devoted my time to causes I found far more important. When I give my personal opinion and advice on dating I have no agenda on how it should be (because I think it should be different), I simply want to help the OP take the most effective action if what she wants is a long term serious relationship.

[dolcedolore]

Well, I do appreciate everyone's advice and do think everything is valid.

 

I'm 20 years old though. I'm not really looking for a long term, serious, and lasting relationship. If I find one, then great! But honestly... it's not really where I am in life right now and I would never consider marriage at the moment (maybe not even ever). At the same time though, I'm not really into superficial short term dating either, and I'm not someone who just goes around and hooks up. I guess I'm just looking for some fun, maybe something a little more meaningful, as I've never had a serious relationship. Maybe this guy just isn't interested, and that's really okay. I can easily find another guy. It's just that... this guy seemed so genuine and worth my time. I can't say that about everyone I come accross.

[Batya33]

All I can say is his loss if he doesn't call you - you sound like a thoughtful, insightful person! I can relate to the "I don't want something too long term but don't want some casual fling either" attitude - I had those phases in my life, too. I think a very good point was made about what makes you feel comfortable - if you feel ok calling him and asking him out again, and having a dating relationship where you may have to continue to do so in order to spend time with him, then by all means do it. It is interesting to me that a 20 year old like yourself has this question - perhaps things are still the same with this "the girl waits for the boy to call" situation I had in my 20s.

 

Given that you'd be fine with this being a "till I go away to school next year" arrangement, it's not too risky to ask him out - in my experience the man usually picks the woman he pursues more in the beginning but asking for one date doesn't really make enough of a difference especially since you're not really looking for long term here. And, it might make you feel better to know what's going on rather than the silence is the answer alternative.

 

Whatever you decide, good luck!

[dolcedolore]

absinthe- He drank a full glass.

[dolcedolore]

I just realized... I am no good at this waiting, reactive thing! I am too proactive for my own good... I mean, in my professional life, it's a great thing and I wouldn't change it. But, I'm just thinking about this and realized how annoying it is with these sorts of situations.

[servedcold]

Male perspective who has done lots of dating: I don't see anything wrong with a thank you text or very brief email soon after a date from either side, and don't think that the lack of talking about future plans is a bad thing. I never discuss more dates while out on one, and wait a few days to call and ask for another date.

 

This isn't game playing but simple common sense. I don't know the person well enough to start shuffling my life around from the get-go, and often need several days to come up with a good second date.

 

The people to be most wary of in dating, as I have learned through harsh experience, are the ones who are gung ho immediately and want an instant relationship. Those types tend to be the ones who need an SO to center their lives around, and they are also the types who tend to be unstable and turn on a dime. So far, your guy doesn't sound like one of those, as to whether he is interested in seeing more of you, only time will tell and there's not a whole lot to be done to change how those chips will fall. Hope things turn out well for both of you.

[Batya33]

I would keep the conversation shorter next time and say that you need to go but if he wants to get together again you'd be up for it and be fine with driving.

[dolcedolore]

Update time! lol...

 

So we chatted a bit the other day, and kind of made plans for this weekend. Since we couldn't really decide on what to do, he said that he would call me early this week to figure it out. So he called me tonight, and we talked for awhile. So far, he's always followed through whenever he says he's going to do something. I just let a lot of my insecurities get in the way before... I haven't had great past experiences.

 

I think he was worried about the car situation. It's kind of annoying how he keeps bringing it up when I've already told him that I'm fine driving to see him (it's not that far). Anyway, we had a good conversation and we're going to see each other this weekend. I think we're going to just hang out at his place for awhile since we still didn't decide on anything. So I guess I really don't have anything to worry about, I'm just nervous! It'll have been two weeks in between the first time we met/had a date, and although I feel more comfortable with him after our conversations, I just don't know how this will go!

 

I just really hope he hasn't put me in the friend zone...