If Love is not magic, is it worth fighting for?

[Keraron]

I'm not talking from a pessimistic or cynical standpoint, but would like to discuss your views. I think that throughout my life I have lived two or three different lifestyles in love and social relationships: one as a 'player', one as a 'family father/friend' and one as a 'romantic outcast'.

 

Also, as a premise, I would like to mention that I have this talent of a 'people's person' that I immediately connect with people on the road, in the bus, anywhere. This is only to say that I feel I have known many people of the world in my life (compared to others of my age!), and that my thoughts do not stem from theory or negative thinking. However, I should also admit that while I'm extremely extroverted and social, I sometimes do have difficulties taking relationships to a deeper level. I would characterize myself as a 'mass person' or 'PR guy', rather than a 'psychologist'.

 

In my personal experience, whatever kind of woman, from nerds to socialites, from apathic housewifes to hyper-ambitious careerists, from humanitarian quasi-nuns to former inmates - they all first fall for the best catch in the pool of available men. And even if they are not aware of it, those who look from the outside will notice that if there's a group of friends who have almost everything in common, the guy who has the greatest choice of women is the guy with the strongest 'player' attitude at that moment.

I have experienced this when I was the player in a group, and when I was not the player (i.e. someone else got the women). It is almost an unwritten rule.

 

It is as if love and dating are "first come, first serve" and the player is always the 'first' who either makes the choice or is chosen. Everyone who follows must make do with what is left... and convince themselves to be satisfied with whatever they were able to get in the market.

 

Basically, what I subtly see behind the beginning of most romantic relationships of the world is a form of natural selection (survival of the fittest)... which is totally different from what we were taught about Love when we were children, or even from what the media, films and advertising industry promote.

 

I emphasize that I am not saying love is useless and ugly, but the way towards finding love, the conditions to find a partner, the starting point, is always like a race, like a competition.

 

Have you never noticed such pattern?

 

My next question is more related to my personal life. I have reached a stage in which I conclude that I don't need sex. I can live without it, and that's one of the reasons I am not a 'player' anymore.

Yet I get frustrated when I truly like a woman (as a person, not for sex!) and the players get her first, due to the laws of natural selection.

 

I have a strong control over my emotions, so I am asking: if I don't have any extreme urges to get sex, and Love is not magic (but dictated by nature), is there any reason for me to actively look for it, date women, etc.? Is it worth?

[waveseer]

It is when you meet the right woman who reawakens all of your desires to be close to a woman and keep her company.

[Keraron]

It is when you meet the right woman who reawakens all of your desires to be close to a woman and keep her company.

 

I'm not sure you are answering me in context.

 

This woman might meet me simply because she can't find any better.

[waveseer]

I'm not sure you are answering me in context.

 

This woman might meet me simply because she can't find any better.

 

I think I did. You asked for a reason to pursue womEn and I gave you the reason, to pursue womAn, not plural, singular.

 

She may not come to you at all. But if you meet the woman who does it for you, all of your questions about whether it's worth it to pursue her will flee your mind.

[Keraron]

I think I did. You asked for a reason to pursue womEn and I gave you the reason, to pursue womAn, not plural, singular.

 

She may not come to you at all. But if you meet the woman who does it for you, all of your questions about whether it's worth it to pursue her will flee your mind.

 

...I didn't say pursue womEn, but pursue Love - which often requires dating womEn...

 

Firstly: The reason you give seems like a positive re-affirmation of the question itself: A bit like, "Why should I believe in God?" Answer he exists, and if he helps you, you wouldn't ask such questions."

 

Secondly: Are you saying I shouldn't look for love, but be on my own life until a right person arrives? If yes, that's more or less what I meant: Not actively looking for love by dating, flirting and 'selling oneself' to women until you find the right one.

 

Could you please be more specific about what you are saying?

[Circe]

I'm afraid I havent seen a "first come first serve" or natural selection pattern to relationships. I think people date either because:

1) they find each other attractive from a chemistry point of view; or

2) the guy finds the girl attractive and asks her out and the girl decides to give the guy a shot;

3) the girl finds the guy hot, asks him out, guy decides to give it a shot; or

4) both girl and boy are friend, deep feelings of caring between them, they decide to see if there's something more

5) they meet through some dating site or through mutual friends and neither is attracted chemistry wise but decide to give it a shot anyway.

 

I know very few relationships between a "player" male and a female. They certainly aren't the majority.

 

I also think that both women AND men want make the best choice for themselves as they can out of the pool available. But all that means to me - is that you date someone due to reasons (1)-(5) above - if it doesnt work out because you are incompatible - you move on till you meet someone who is.

 

Is that magic? No.

 

Is a relationship that is compatible and is mutually rewarding and loving and safe and happy worth it? Yes of course.

[Keraron]

I'm afraid I havent seen a "first come first serve" or natural selection pattern to relationships.

[...]

I know very few relationships between a "player" male and a female. They certainly aren't the majority.

 

You talk about attraction and chemistry.

Haven't you ever considered that they are initiated by natural selection?

 

When I say 'player' type I don't mean that the guy is promiscuous while he is in a relationship with the girl, but I mean that he has alpha-male behavior (strong leadership, slightly more self-confident/arrogant than others, doesn't focus on one woman etc.) while he is single.

 

Is a relationship that is compatible and is mutually rewarding and loving and safe and happy worth it? Yes of course.

But what if the path to creating it was like a competition, a game?

 

Note that my entire discussion is based on the factors that lead to the relationship, not the relationship itself. I feel there is some unfairness in that process. And I also think that it is those unfair and irrational judgments that later lead to conflicts in the relationship, eventually to break up.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

The "alpha male" behaviour is a real turnoff for me because these men tend to be aholes...they take their "I am the boss" behaviour into relationships and relegate the woman to a "your are not as important as I am" status. An alpha male may be attractive from a distance but once you get to know them they are generally selfish and self-involved.

 

As for your argument..I will say that the same holds true with men looking for women..they tend to look for the "easy" woman or the "alpha" woman....also the women who are troubled and completely self-involved.

[BriarRose]

I think "player" is the wrong word. People want what they can't have. Men and woman are equal in this regard. I agree that most women will not want a man who comes so easily for them and men would NEVER want a woman who was available all the time.

 

I am unusual. I like men who show me they want me, and even who are a little needy. But this is not the norm, IMO. And I don't seem to attract those men. I attract the alpha males, I don't know why.

 

I have to agree with CAD about most men being very drawn to self-involved women. It turns them on, I don't know why.

[Circe]

Well - what game? Trying to beat the alpha males? You don't have to play that game. Not everyone wants a dominant male. I've dated all sorts and a genuine partner (an equal who acknowledges and respects you as such and expects the same from you in return) is best.

 

Dating is hard .. Meeting so many incompatible ppl .. Feeling heart break and rejection .. Wondering if you are good enough .. Feeling sick of hoping .. I know its hard. It was very hard for me too.

 

And yes, its worth it.

[waveseer]

...I didn't say pursue womEn, but pursue Love - which often requires dating womEn...

 

Firstly: The reason you give seems like a positive re-affirmation of the question itself: A bit like, "Why should I believe in God?" Answer he exists, and if he helps you, you wouldn't ask such questions."

 

Secondly: Are you saying I shouldn't look for love, but be on my own life until a right person arrives? If yes, that's more or less what I meant: Not actively looking for love by dating, flirting and 'selling oneself' to women until you find the right one.

 

Could you please be more specific about what you are saying?

 

Decide which qualities are important to you, ask out each woman you find attractive in order to get to know them to see if they have those qualities.

[Cognitive_Canine]

Nope, never dated those types of guys though.

 

If you will look slightly to your left, you'll see the individuals not trying to win a 'trophy'. They've been there a long time.

[Keraron]

An alpha male may be attractive from a distance but once you get to know them they are generally selfish and self-involved.

I know... but why do most girls I have liked in my life fall for such alpha males then?

I am aware there are exceptions, but here we're talking about Love, a concept that apparently drives the entire human population, and in which it believes. Society doesn't live according to exceptions.

Doesn't this mean that Love (as known by the world, by the average normal people) is actually something bad and selfish?

 

As for your argument..I will say that the same holds true with men looking for women..they tend to look for the "easy" woman or the "alpha" woman....also the women who are troubled and completely self-involved.

Agreed. Mine was just the male point of view, and I am aware the same happens the other way round.

 

Doesn't make things any better...

[Keraron]

I've dated all sorts and a genuine partner (an equal who acknowledges and respects you as such and expects the same from you in return) is best.

Would you say that only very few people amongst humanity find genuine love in their lives?

 

Dating is hard .. Meeting so many incompatible ppl .. Feeling heart break and rejection .. Wondering if you are good enough .. Feeling sick of hoping .. I know its hard. It was very hard for me too.

 

And yes, its worth it.

 

What makes it worth it? What have you gained from it?

[Crazyaboutdogs]

Alpha males and females tend to be wolves in sheep's clothing. Their domineering/selfish/self-involved side which is part of the alpha personality is kept well-hidden until the other person is hooked. Up until then the "alpha" personality exudes the charm, goodwill and kindness that get the person hooked..then once the person is hooked, the mask comes off and the ugliness of the alpha person's personality comes out in full force. By that time the other person can't believe the complete change and is waiting for the decent person to reveal him/herself again. So basically the alpha person is a good actor/actress who can play the part of "sweetness and light" to get the other person roped in.

[Keraron]

Alpha males and females tend to be wolves in sheep's clothing. Their domineering/selfish/self-involved side which is part of the alpha personality is kept well-hidden until the other person is hooked. Up until then the "alpha" personality exudes the charm, goodwill and kindness that get the person hooked..then once the person is hooked, the mask comes off and the ugliness of the alpha person's personality comes out in full force. By that time the other person can't believe the complete change and is waiting for the decent person to reveal him/herself again. So basically the alpha person is a good actor/actress who can play the part of "sweetness and light" to get the other person roped in.

 

I know... I know... I know... I also think that this is one of the many numerous ways dominant people are able to win the competition. There are other ways, and I also think that many of these ways aren't necessarily conscious.

 

Whatever is true, it simply appears that most people in the world, perhaps 80% or even more, behave in this way - they are everywhere, in every context, on this forum as well.

 

My question is: if everyone is like that, is searching for love actively really worth it? The payout must be really low since it is highly improbable to find people who do not behave this way.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

I am more and more convinced that it is a waste of time. Many of the relationships I see are not happy ones and people just stay together because they don't want to be alone.

[Cognitive_Canine]

 

My question is: if everyone is like that, is searching for love actively really worth it? The payout must be really low since it is highly improbable to find people who do not behave this way.

 

 

Not everyone is like this.

 

And it is definitely worth it.

[Odysseus]

...the guy who has the greatest choice of women is the guy with the strongest 'player' attitude at that moment.

I have experienced this when I was the player in a group, and when I was not the player (i.e. someone else got the women). It is almost an unwritten rule.

...

Yet I get frustrated when I truly like a woman (as a person, not for sex!) and the players get her first, due to the laws of natural selection.

...

I have a strong control over my emotions, so I am asking: if I don't have any extreme urges to get sex, and Love is not magic (but dictated by nature), is there any reason for me to actively look for it, date women, etc.? Is it worth?

I think there is an important distinction here. The idea of an alpha-male-female is a very tricky proposition. I would submit that that for some savy women, it's confidence, not social/sexual alpha type behavior which can be very attractive. Even better, self-actualization.

 

People (men or women for that matter) who are on the path of self-actualization path can be (to me) the most attractive (women in my case ). What can be better than someone who is confident in who they are, and know where they fit into the grand scheme of it all.

Individuals who are self actualizing:

- embrace reality and facts rather than denying truth.

- are spontaneous.

- are interested in solving problems.

- are accepting of themselves and also others and lack prejudice.

(I lifted this from wikipedia...btw...to save time)

 

I would agree there is a lot of nature and natural selection, but I would contend that as humans, we look for more that just sexy attitude and a sharp wit. Those things are superficial leading indicators of what may or may not be underneath. The attributes which attract us initially are not the ones which develop a deep and long lasting relationship. Infatuation versus true love to put it into common ENA terms.

 

For many (IMHO), when things really get going, it's the ability to trust, respect and share common goals and compatibilities (in addition to some of the superficial things) which takes a relationship the next level. People who are self actualizing tend to be able to make that leap with less baggage and more success.

 

Peace.

[Keraron]

Not everyone is like this.

 

And it is definitely worth it.

 

Two affirmations with no explanations whatsoever... Do you simply believe for the sake of believing it or can you explain it?

[Keraron]

The attributes which attract us initially are not the ones which develop a deep and long lasting relationship.

[...]

For many (IMHO), when things really get going, it's the ability to trust, respect and share common goals and compatibilities (in addition to some of the superficial things) which takes a relationship the next level.

 

I absolutely agree - but none of these can happen if the initial selection did not happen in our favor.

 

What I am saying is that, regardless of whether the relationship will become meaningful or pointless, the necessary condition for it to even exist in first place is the initial attraction.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

Yep..and as far as men are concerned it seems the only thing many are attracted to is a woman who exudes sex...all the brains in the world and all the self-confidence in the world do not attract men. Take a brainy women who dresses in a classy way and a woman with her boobs hanging out and a short skirt who is batting her eyelashes and giving the "come hither" look and the men will flock to the latter..because many men mistake sexual aggressiveness for self-confidence..and in fact many of the women who I have know who were sexually aggressive actually had low self-esteem and lacked self-confidence.

[Lonewing]

See, my Ex was the player. I was no where near the Best perosn in the room, though yes, I was one of the most innocent there. And I was a very safe person, dueto my respect and my mild manners, which attracted her to me.

 

She is like you; she has difficulty taking relationships to the next level. She has fallen for so many people...she fell for one before I was even gone form her side.

 

Is love worth fighting for? YES. Does everybody have the capacity to fight for it? no.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

See, my Ex was the player. I was no where near the Best perosn in the room, though yes, I was one of the most innocent there. And I was a very safe person, dueto my respect and my mild manners, which attracted her to me.

 

She is like you; she has difficulty taking relationships to the next level. She has fallen for so many people...she fell for one before I was even gone form her side.

 

Is love worth fighting for? YES. Does everybody have the capacity to fight for it? no.

 

 

Love is worth fighting for if both sides are willing to fight for love. Love is not worth fighting for if only one person is fighting for it and the other person can't be bothered.

[Lonewing]

Love is worth fighting for if both sides are willing to fight for love. Love is not worth fighting for if only one person is fighting for it and the other person can't be bothered.

 

Amen! So very true, yet it's so hard because love blinds us to other's indifference...