Seducing someone's girlfriend or boyfriend

[Tarkan]

Before I explain my point of view on this subject I just wanted to say that I hope that I won't get attacked in my attempt to explain a point of view. I just asked myself the question and it resulted in a couple of objective reasonments. It doesn't mean I fully suport the statement made in the tittle.

 

The facts

 

I've seen alot of posts where someone tells us that he fell in love with a girl/boy that happens to be in a relationship. Usually the responses are as this:

 

"You should have stopped there"

"Going for someone's bg/gf is a big nono"

etc. ...

 

I just asked myself: Why ?

 

As long as I now there is no one, single or in a relationship, that belongs to someone. You aren't someone's propriety. I guess we all agree on this since we're all free men ( this is debatable but such subject belongs to the domain of politics ). People are never in a relationship because they *have* too ( this is also debatable ) but because it gets them certain advantages ( sex, love, money, social status, comfort, ... ).

 

The question

 

If you think you can provide better advantages then the current person who's in a relationship with your potential date, why not take your chance ?

Especially if the girl/guy is whining about him/her. You know the deal.

 

For me, being in a relationship with someone isn't something granted. You have to earn it. Do something for the other person, not only for yourself. I think alot of people take their love for granted and act like if that person belonged to them. I think it's common sense that you have to make some effort all the time in order to be with someone.

 

Again, why wouldn't you come along as a better choice if you think you'd be prepared to do more and provide a better relationship ?

 

No one is forcing that person anyway ? I think that both persons know what they're engaging in and will be prepared to assume eventual consequences.

 

 

It's the same in economy ( the western capitalistic economy ): People who work and try harder will be rewarded more ( debatable ). People who don't will be left behind. It's the survival of the fittest.

 

 

 

If your boyfriend or girlfriend leaves for someone else, you can look at it in two different ways:

 

- He/She thought that other person was offering better advantages then you did. Humans only look for the satisfaction of their ego, their own needs. In that way, it's a very logical choice.

 

- You are now better off without that person since she wasn't with you for the good reasons. For example: the person leaves because she just wants more sex but that wasn't the most important thing for you. You can now look for someone less sex-orientated. See what I mean ?

 

Anyway, does it look more acceptable to flirt with someone's gf/bf when you think about the above ?

 

Or maybe in the end, aren't we all angry or afraid someone flirts with our bf/gf because of self-esteem issues ? If you were convinced you were a better person in every single way, would there be any reason to be afraid ?

 

Exept maybe for the never satisfied human greed ... but that's life I guess.

 

 

 

/discuss

[Cognitive_Canine]

I love your posts tarken. You put a lot of thought into everything.

 

In my opinion, it all just comes down to politeness. I would never think to hit on someone's boyfriend. I would also never think to date one of my friend's exes. These are just silent yet generally understood rules among my group of friends.

 

There is just simply no tact to it.

 

Relationships are hard enough. Why make it harder by dragging a bunch of hurt emotions and confusions into it by getting someone out of a relationship.

 

Also, I don't want to date anyone who is so emotionally detatched to leave me for something "better". What someone does to someone else, they could easily do to you. It would bother me that my boyfriend had treated his ex so poorly. And I believe how a person treats their ex is their true character.

 

If my boyfriend leaves me for someone else, good, they can have them. I'd rather not be with someone who is so devoid of loyalty. I also see no reason in acting out on jealousy. If another girl were to hit on my bf, I trust he would do the right thing and simply say no. If he does not say no, he isn't the right one for me and I will not waste anymore time on him.

 

TO ADD: I see no point in blaming "the other woman/man" for breaking up a relationship, btw. If not them, it'd be another person that would have led my mate astray.

[Lamprey]

Your argument is basically trying to rationalize selfishness by disguising it as altruism. If you want someone who's in a relationship then it's okay to try & break up their relationship to satisfy your want.

 

Your justification is that you're not really being selfish; you're merely offering them more and they should be able to choose you over their current partner. Never mind that said partner ends up hurt in the end.

 

My reply is: it's douchebag behavior. If you can't or won't see that then one day you'll try your brand of altruism on the wrong couple, and the current partner who's "not offering them as much as you could" will offer you a good and well-deserved beatdown.

 

Oh - and good luck forming a lasting relationship with someone who already left their partner for you. You'll always wonder whether they're scoping out greener pastures yet.

[Tarkan]

I like your point of view debaser. It's a more sensitive approach while mine is, like the poster above said, too rational. I still think the rational point of view holds some truth.

 

 

In my opinion, it all just comes down to politeness. I would never think to hit on someone's boyfriend. I would also never think to date one of my friend's exes. These are just silent yet generally understood rules among my group of friends.

 

We have that too in our group of friends. I forgot about this silent rule in my post and I think it's somewhat the kind of answer I was looking for. If one of my friends did that I'd think the guy is just rude and crude and I'd be pretty pissed at im. But I can't imagine one doing so. We had however, a friend that kissed another friend's girlfriend. They are still good friends and he dumped the girl.

 

I also know several stories of a guy that found out of all his friends went to be with his girlfriend and he never knew about it. I guess it just depends who your friends are.

 

Relationships are hard enough. Why make it harder by dragging a bunch of hurt emotions and confusions into it by getting someone out of a relationship.

 

You got another point. But love is irrational so it makes us do crazy things sometimes ^^

 

If my boyfriend leaves me for someone else, good, they can have them. I'd rather not be with someone who is so devoid of loyalty. I also see no reason in acting out on jealousy. If another girl were to hit on my bf, I trust he would do the right thing and simply say no. If he does not say no, he isn't the right one for me and I will not waste anymore time on him.

 

Indeed, that's what I tryed to point out in the two ways you could react to someone who leaves you.

[Cognitive_Canine]

Near the end of my senior year, my best friend and I were talking and suddenly realized that one of our friends wasn't a very good friend at all. All of this girl's boyfriend were either boys one of our group of friends had dated or a boy that once liked us but never ended up dating.

 

This was about 7 boys, mind you.

 

I find this mentality treating men like trophies. As her own little way of trying to be better than us. Such as, if she was able to date them longer than us, she would consider herself more "successful" and a better girlfriend. However, that's not how dating works.

 

We've stopped being friends with her as her behaviour as just gotten worse and became out of control during the end of senior year. She is still dating a boy one of our friends dated.

[Cognitive_Canine]

I often find myself being too rational also, tarken.

 

But, rationality only goes so far and can sometimes lead you into trouble. When matters involve other people's feelings, you have to be sensitive. Or else you will find yourself very unliked and with a heavy conscious.

[Tarkan]

Your justification is that you're not really being selfish; you're merely offering them more and they should be able to choose you over their current partner.

 

Why is it selfish to want someone who is in a relationship ? Isn't it more selfish for the person BEING in the relationship to take the one they love as granted ?

 

Never mind that said partner ends up hurt in the end.

 

Be honest and tell me if most people care about the feeling of that other partner/ex ? Like I said, most people care about their own needs and ego.

It's not a surprise that the most hated thing on a date is when someone brings up the ex.

 

Oh - and good luck forming a lasting relationship with someone who already left their partner for you. You'll always wonder whether they're scoping out greener pastures yet.

 

Isn't that what all people do ? If we were all satisfied, no one would leave their current relationships. That's what people do: When they are unhappy, they leave. You have a point however, that the grass is never greener elsewhere.

 

But we eventually move on I guess. We try out new things, new experiences.

A lasting relationship is never certain. Wouldn't you want to try and see ?

[Cognitive_Canine]

 

Isn't that what all people do ? If we were all satisfied, no one would leave their current relationships. That's what people do: When they are unhappy, they leave. You have a point however, that the grass is never greener elsewhere.

 

The rational thing to do if you are unsatisfied with a relationship is to be single and take time to sort out your feelings. Going from relationship to relationship is often very unhealthy and unfair to the next person you are dating (rebound, using them to cope, using them to not be alone).

 

The rational thing to do after a relationship is to take time just being single. The more unhealthy the relationship you left was, the more time it takes to heal, I find.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

John just won the door prize, a new iPOD. I always wanted that particular iPOD..I paid the same admission as John so really, he didn't buy that iPOD, he doesn't own it...I think I want it and I am just going to take it away from him.

[dragon lady]

Oh - and good luck forming a lasting relationship with someone who already left their partner for you. You'll always wonder whether they're scoping out greener pastures yet.

 

This is why I would never take up any of the offers I've received from attached/married men. I would not want to be with someone who was willing to leave their partner for me. What happens when we're together and someone "better" comes along? I would never be able to trust that person. I'd rather be with someone who is loyal and happy to be with me, regardless of who else is out there.

 

I can't for the life of me understand how this would be a good thing for anyone in the end.

[HouseKitten]

John just won the door prize, a new iPOD. I always wanted that particular iPOD..I paid the same admission as John so really, he didn't buy that iPOD, he doesn't own it...I think I want it and I am just going to take it away from him.

 

People aren't property.

 

John OWNS that iPod, it's his property. That iPod has no free will or desire to leave John, it can't run off with you if you treat it better.

 

If a relationship is happy then someone else making a play for one person in it will not be an issue. It might be bad manners, but at the end of the day no one HAS to leave their partner just because someone else showed interest. iPods can't say no, people can.

[Day_Walker]

I think that your analogies have some relevance to the topic at hand I do not believe that they are entirely accurate but they state a general perception. Take the economics analogy for example, the model of economics you state is pure capitalism, which only exists in the realm of economics. Pure capitalism is harsh and cold and only searches for a profit motive as nothing else matters.

 

As far as people are concerned, no matter how hard people try they cannot truly detach themselves from their emotions and make a decision purely on its advantageous nature.

 

I agree that as individuals we cannot own our partners and they do not own us, but I believe that is how people think regarding relationships. It seems to me that people have an issue with any situation when a person has an intent to disrupt a relationship. I think that more has to do with idolizing the relationship than realizing that as adults we all have the freedom to choose what we want and if that means leaving a relationship because of the actions of another person then so be it.

[Tarkan]

John just won the door prize, a new iPOD. I always wanted that particular iPOD..I paid the same admission as John so really, he didn't buy that iPOD, he doesn't own it...I think I want it and I am just going to take it away from him.

 

John always wanted a pet. After working hard, he gathered enough money to buy one. John was so happy. Silly John. But eventually, time passed and Johny got bored with his dog. It always did the same tricks and the dog turned out to not be as funny as he thought. As John was displeased with the dog, he took less care of it. When the dog needed some love, the only words coming out of his mouth were: "Stupid Dog".

 

It was fun with John but not anymore. The dog had nowhere else to go. John wasn't the best but hey, he still had SOMEONE.

 

Along came Peter. Peter is a friend of John. They always play at John's home. Silly Peter. Last time he went for playing, he saw John's dog. It looked sad. When Peter looked in the eyes of the dog, he knew there was something. Was it friendship ? Peter couldn't tell. But the dog looked so sad that Peter wanted to make him happy.

 

He asked John why the dog looked sad. John answered: "because he's useless". "So you don't want him anymore?", asked Peter. "I do ! I worked for it so it's mine" answered John. "But you seem to not take care of him" asked Peter. "You dear question my judgement you insect", screamed John while raising his fist.

 

Peter remained silent. But he knew what he now had to do

 

When dusk fell on the land, he sneaked into John's house. Ninjastyle ! The dog was already waiting for him and packed all his belongings in his box ( because John couldn't care less about his dog living in a box ).

 

Now the dog lives happily with Peter.

 

Silly Peter

 

People aren't property.

 

John OWNS that iPod, it's his property. That iPod has no free will or desire to leave John, it can't run off with you if you treat it better.

 

If a relationship is happy then someone else making a play for one person in it will not be an issue. It might be bad manners, but at the end of the day no one HAS to leave their partner just because someone else showed interest. iPods can't say no, people can.

 

Yes, people always have the choice

[Cognitive_Canine]

I don't like analogies for partners involving things or even pets. They just don't match up for me at all and I feel are telltale signs on how people view relationships.

 

I really can't think of a idea that would be a suitable stand in for a boyfriend and could be used in an analogy.

[Tarkan]

I don't like analogies for partners involving things or even pets. They just don't match up for me at all and I feel are telltale signs on how people view relationships.

 

I really can't think of a idea that would be a suitable stand in for a boyfriend and could be used in an analogy.

 

I just made the analogy as a parody on the first one that didn't make sense to me. ^^

 

There could be a better analogy but the feelings toward a dog are closer to what we are looking for then the feelings toward an object I think. A dog won't feel love the same way as a human does ( or do they ? ) so I get your point.

[Lamprey]

Why is it selfish to want someone who is in a relationship ? Isn't it more selfish for the person BEING in the relationship to take the one they love as granted ?

 

As you said, people aren't property. So by that logic, if someone is in a relationship they're in it of their own free will, presumably because it makes them happy. That's why trying to break up someone's relationship (which they freely entered into) so they can be with you is selfish. You're destroying their happiness with another person because you think you'll be replacing it with happiness which involves you. If people aren't property, why would you feel you're justified in making that call for them?

 

Be honest and tell me if most people care about the feeling of that other partner/ex ? Like I said, most people care about their own needs and ego.

It's not a surprise that the most hated thing on a date is when someone brings up the ex.

 

Most people have a moral compass. Knowingly doing harm to others, even strangers, to satisfy one's own wants is something most people would not do if they could help it. If morality is not enough of an argument, realize that we're social animals and that harming others in the herd to get what you want (not need - want) is bad policy. It gets you ostracized, you lose friends, and before you know it you're known as the evil one people stay away from.

 

Isn't that what all people do ? If we were all satisfied, no one would leave their current relationships. That's what people do: When they are unhappy, they leave. You have a point however, that the grass is never greener elsewhere.

 

It is, people end relationships, they have in the past and they will in the future. And once they've made that choice and have become single, I say go get em. However, there is a world of difference between allowing a person to end a relationship they're not happy with and actively courting them in hopes that they'll end it for you.

[SighSob]

In theory, it all makes sense. Yet, I'm sure you wouldn't do that to a friend of yours, right? We are humans and we have feelings, and feelings can't be rationalized this easily. For example, following your reasoning, there's nothing wrong in cheating. Or in having multiple partners. According to you, jealousy makes no sense.

 

The truth lies in between. It's true that no one belongs to no one. In fact, when my ex left me for someone else, I didn't hate or blame the new guy for trying to "steal" her from me while we were still together, so I'm with you on this one. Yet I wouldn't be able to steal a g/f from anyone 'cause I've been on the losing side of this game.

[Tarkan]

In theory, it all makes sense. Yet, I'm sure you wouldn't do that to a friend of yours, right? We are humans and we have feelings, and feelings can't be rationalized this easily. For example, following your reasoning, there's nothing wrong in cheating. Or in having multiple partners. According to you, jealousy makes no sense.

 

The truth lies in between. It's true that no one belongs to no one. In fact, when my ex left me for someone else, I didn't hate or blame the new guy for trying to "steal" her from me while we were still together, so I'm with you on this one. Yet I wouldn't be able to steal a g/f from anyone 'cause I've been on the losing side of this game.

 

You are right, I wouldn't do it. In fact I made this topic because I had one of those "what if ..." moments. Or because I wanted to know what other people were thinking about the subject. Like I said, I don't fully support what I said in the topic ^^

 

About multiple partners: Alot of cultures in the world, if not the majority of them, support polygamy. It has it's reason to exist and it's own benefits. Monogamy is typical for the western culture and polygamy seems unacceptable for us because we weren't raised in a system that approves it.

Somehow, I still think that monogamy has jealousy and greed ( to some extend ) as for the reason it exist.

 

The morale we're talking about is something hard to talk about since there isn't *one* morale. It all depends from the culture you live in.

 

But in the end you are more right then me because I live in the western culture myself and by doing so I have to addapt to it's morale. Otherwise I wouldn't have my place in it. But the whole subject of this thread is still an interesting debate me thinks.

[Tarkan]

In theory, it all makes sense. Yet, I'm sure you wouldn't do that to a friend of yours, right? We are humans and we have feelings, and feelings can't be rationalized this easily. For example, following your reasoning, there's nothing wrong in cheating. Or in having multiple partners. According to you, jealousy makes no sense.

 

The truth lies in between. It's true that no one belongs to no one. In fact, when my ex left me for someone else, I didn't hate or blame the new guy for trying to "steal" her from me while we were still together, so I'm with you on this one. Yet I wouldn't be able to steal a g/f from anyone 'cause I've been on the losing side of this game.

 

You are right, I wouldn't do it. In fact I made this topic because I had one of those "what if ..." moments. Or because I wanted to know what other people were thinking about the subject. Like I said, I don't fully support what I said in the topic ^^

 

About multiple partners: Alot of cultures in the world, if not the majority of them, support polygamy. It has it's reason to exist and it's own benefits. Monogamy is typical for the western culture and polygamy seems unacceptable for us because we weren't raised in a system that approves it.

Somehow, I still think that monogamy has jealousy and greed ( to some extend ) as for the reason it exist.

 

The morale we're talking about is something hard to talk about since there isn't *one* morale. It all depends from the culture you live in.

 

But in the end you are more right then me because I live in the western culture myself and by doing so I have to addapt to it's morale. Otherwise I wouldn't have my place in it. But the whole subject of this thread is still an interesting debate me thinks.

[Tarkan]

As you said, people aren't property. So by that logic, if someone is in a relationship they're in it of their own free will, presumably because it makes them happy. That's why trying to break up someone's relationship (which they freely entered into) so they can be with you is selfish. You're destroying their happiness with another person because you think you'll be replacing it with happiness which involves you. If people aren't property, why would you feel you're justified in making that call for them?

 

I think the point of seducing someone who is in a relationship is not making them unhappy and breaking the relationship. This might be the result of it, but it's not what you are trying to achieve. In the end, it's all about the feelings invloved

 

Don't misunderstand me., I'm not talking about destroying a relationship just for the fun of it. ( Because it looks like some interpreted it that way ) I'm talking about a situation where you fall in love with someone in a relationship.

 

In reality, this kind of situation usually happens when the person invloved is unsatisfied about his/her relationship and talking about it. Sometimes, it's a signal for others. Like saying: "I'm open for the take".

 

If the person decides to break up, can we always talk about happyness ? No one is forcing that person right ? And if she leaves, then it's not you who destroy the *happyness* but the person who leaves, no ? You influenced her, that's for sure ... but in the end, who is the person that moved out ?

 

 

Most people have a moral compass. Knowingly doing harm to others, even strangers, to satisfy one's own wants is something most people would not do if they could help it. If morality is not enough of an argument, realize that we're social animals and that harming others in the herd to get what you want (not need - want) is bad policy. It gets you ostracized, you lose friends, and before you know it you're known as the evil one people stay away from.

 

I totally agree with you on that. But there are plenty of situations where people would become social animals again. Morality is relative. As for myself, I'd choose the path of morality since I think it's better for me and this world.

[Tarkan]

As you said, people aren't property. So by that logic, if someone is in a relationship they're in it of their own free will, presumably because it makes them happy. That's why trying to break up someone's relationship (which they freely entered into) so they can be with you is selfish. You're destroying their happiness with another person because you think you'll be replacing it with happiness which involves you. If people aren't property, why would you feel you're justified in making that call for them?

 

I think the point of seducing someone who is in a relationship is not making them unhappy and breaking the relationship. This might be the result of it, but it's not what you are trying to achieve. In the end, it's all about the feelings invloved

 

Don't misunderstand me., I'm not talking about destroying a relationship just for the fun of it. ( Because it looks like some interpreted it that way ) I'm talking about a situation where you fall in love with someone in a relationship.

 

In reality, this kind of situation usually happens when the person invloved is unsatisfied about his/her relationship and talking about it. Sometimes, it's a signal for others. Like saying: "I'm open for the take".

 

If the person decides to break up, can we always talk about happyness ? No one is forcing that person right ? And if she leaves, then it's not you who destroy the *happyness* but the person who leaves, no ? You influenced her, that's for sure ... but in the end, who is the person that moved out ?

 

 

Most people have a moral compass. Knowingly doing harm to others, even strangers, to satisfy one's own wants is something most people would not do if they could help it. If morality is not enough of an argument, realize that we're social animals and that harming others in the herd to get what you want (not need - want) is bad policy. It gets you ostracized, you lose friends, and before you know it you're known as the evil one people stay away from.

 

I totally agree with you on that. But there are plenty of situations where people would become social animals again. Morality is relative. As for myself, I'd choose the path of morality since I think it's better for me and this world.

[lostandhurt]

Very simple:

RESPECT!

Respect for their relationship and Respect for yourself.

 

 

Lost

[lostandhurt]

Very simple:

RESPECT!

Respect for their relationship and Respect for yourself.

 

 

Lost

[hockeyplaya44]

I don't see someone stealing a girl from a guy or vice versa as that big of an issue. I wouldn't want to be with a girl if I was her second choice. If there is a guy out there that can steal her away then he should go for it. Sure I'll hate the guy but I'll be better off overall.

 

That being said, obviously there are lines that can't be crossed. Actively trying to break up a couple by telling the girl her boyfriend cheated on her is unacceptable. Anything along those lines is obviously wrong. But treating a person how you feel they should be treated is not wrong. If that leads to them leaving their relationsip to be with you then it is really best for all three people involved. Clearly the one being left will not feel this way at first, but they will eventually find someone more suited for them-someone who can't be taken away.

[hockeyplaya44]

I don't see someone stealing a girl from a guy or vice versa as that big of an issue. I wouldn't want to be with a girl if I was her second choice. If there is a guy out there that can steal her away then he should go for it. Sure I'll hate the guy but I'll be better off overall.

 

That being said, obviously there are lines that can't be crossed. Actively trying to break up a couple by telling the girl her boyfriend cheated on her is unacceptable. Anything along those lines is obviously wrong. But treating a person how you feel they should be treated is not wrong. If that leads to them leaving their relationsip to be with you then it is really best for all three people involved. Clearly the one being left will not feel this way at first, but they will eventually find someone more suited for them-someone who can't be taken away.