How long should one wait?

[youngpup]

...you see it as a prophecy that you will be the same. It is keeping you back. You will not move forward with this type of attitude... So I wouldn't wish for you to find a relationship.

That's the prophecy.

 

That is partially what I mean by saying don't be so convinced you know it all.

i'm still alive, it demonstrates that i'm not totally convinced. i've been hanging around, hoping to be proven wrong.

 

You want to be in love, but you want them to accept you as is.

This is quite true. i do wish someone could like me for me, not me pretending to be someone else. i'm not good at lying, and eventually the truth self would come out. Plus, i've always had the fantasy that with the right person i could be honest and open.

 

 

How long have you really, really tried? You are so set in your ways that you will not let yourself move forward. I don't care if you are as ugly and boring as it gets. You can change that. Its your choice. It won't be easy. But it will be worth it. I would first go to a therapist/psychiatrist and get a diagnosis.

 

i don't know what to say to a girl - i don't know what to say to anyone really - but especially a girl. And i don't handle rejection at all well - like sends me off sobbing for hours.

 

That is the core of my problem.

 

i generally have no interest is having a conversation with someone about nothing - i really don't. It feels fake, phony, false, pretend, make-believe, a put-on, a social nicity, etc. It feels completely disingenuous to make small-talk, and i wouldn't even know what to say in the first place.

 

Even if i did manage to say, "Hi" to a girl, i would be stuck after that. And she'd know it, and it would be awkard and painful for both of us. And then i'd walk away a failure, and i don't handle rejection well.

 

First year of high-school, first and last dance i ever went to, i asked a girl to dance. She said no. That's that. i don't want to experience that ever again.

 

When i was twenty five, i went on the first and last date i ever had. It was so horrible that had actually suppressed all memory of it until relativly recently. After dropping her off, i parked the car half a block away, sat in the car and cried for 10 minutes. She never talked to me again. i don't ever want to put myself in a position to experience anything like that ever again.

 

 

When i was 24, a female friend of mine had a (quite attractive) 17 year old daughter. My friend she said that Christina (her daughter) will pretend to be your blind date. "You've just shown up the house to pick her up, talk to her." She was trying to get me some practice. "So i'll just leave the two of you alone. She's your date, Ian. Talk to her." i begged her not to do it, i begged her not to leave, i begged her not to do this. She left the room, Christina sat down on a chair opposite me, and i froze up. And she knew it, and i knew she knew it, and it was awful. It was one of the worst experiences of my life. My friend was only trying to help me, but it felt like she was trying to humiliate me. i never want to experience anything like that again.

 

-------

 

i know exactly what i need to get over it. i need a girl who is patient, understanding that i can begin to feel comfortable with and practice with. Problem is that if i'm that comfortable with a girl, then i'll have fallen in love with her already. And since she was only trying to help me, she doesn't actually like me - and i'm back to where i started.

 

I would not be fair for any women to come into a situation like this. It is not about love, or a women liking a situation. It is about you feeling you will only live for anothers love. Everyone wants that. But it is not the meaning of life. It isn't fair to put your happiness on another in that way.

 

Read link removed. It echos a lot of the things you've said here. When i first found it a few years ago, it was quite disturbing to have so much of my personaltiy written down and mocked - qualities in myself that i didn't even notice until they were pointed out.

 

This story about the man trying to commit suicide...your point?

My point was that there isn't always a happy ending - whether deserved or not, whether self-inflicted or not, whether avoidable or not.

 

As my friend said, "A woman isn't going to show up at your doorstep one say, ring the door-bell, strip naked, wrap her arms around you, and say, 'Marry me, Ian.'"

 

Nice guys who sit there passively waiting for life to happen to them, instead of actively pursing their goals and dreams.

 

People look for love to fall from the skies like a passionate paratrooper, or begging mythical creatures to present them with girlfriends they couldn't earn for themselves...

 

 

Edit: 1:28AM - sleepy time. i see my earlier response was responded to before this one. Sorry for the out of order-ness.

[kmae23]

You are depressed. That is why social interaction does not hold meaning for you. Nothing can as long as you don't receive the good feelings that comes with it. Depressing blocks it. Yeah, medicine isn't an easy fix but its a start. And you may feel fake being a certain way, but its only because you have yet to find yourself.

 

Many times there isn't a happy ending. Pretty often actually. Just ask me about my job? I am a nurse at a long term care facility. I see many men and women, without anything but their illness to keep them company. I usually do not look at the peachy side of things. It isn't so easy after all. And I don't think tough love is the best route. But in this case, I do not think you are being yourself. I think you are stuck, and have been stuck. But I think it is possible to get unstuck. I think you need a professional, like I have been saying. Trust me.

 

It is hard when people see pain, but to see this and know that it might hurt just as bad as a physical disorder, is unfortunate. You have more tools. I talk to my uncle on the phone that is around your age, he had been with the same women for 13 years, took care of her kids and loved them as his own. One day he was on his way to pick her up from the airport and a car drove into oncoming traffic and hit him head on. He was a vegetable for months and they struggled about whether or not they should pull the cord. They didn't. They believed any chance is better than death. Well now his wife has moved on and lives in the house he built with another man, his kids don't come to see him. He is confined to a wheelchair, he can't see very well, so there is no tv to watch or book to read. He has nothing but his neglectful father and 2 brothers to come and see him. The same ones that remind him that his ex has stolen all the money he saved and racked up his credit cards. He can barely hold a phone conversation because he is so hard to understand now. But when he does talk on the phone, he is angry- at his ex for leaving him in this state, at his family for not letting him die and at anyone that tells him his life is worth living. He was a mechanic that owned his own shop, a very active person that had control of everything around him. But now, who is he and what does he have?

 

I might feel relieved for him if he died. That is the truth. And if I could understand you live in turmoil to this extent, maybe I could understand too. But how do you know it won't get better if you won't seek the help that is out there?

[youngpup]

You are depressed. That is why social interaction does not hold meaning for you.

 

i've always been shy; picture a shy four-year-old. And i think it is something like a touch of aspergers - i like talking with people about a limited subset of things; things that interest me.

 

...practical things. Meaningful things. Not non-sensical things. i prefer to skip passed the, "How are you, how is work, what have you been up to?" and get to the real things.

 

Interesting though...i would want to ask, and be asked, those questions by that special someone. But for anyone else i mostly don't care; and i know they don't care about my answers: they're just making conversation.

 

But how do you know it won't get better if you won't seek the help that is out there?

 

That's a good question. i'm going to have to let that sink in.

[kmae23]

Perhaps you want to skip past the non-sensical things because you crave a connection so badly. Most people don't really care about this type of conversation either. It is just a normal way of life. Maybe there are other things going on, all the more reason to get help.

[youngpup]

i'm sitting here at work, and i just can't concentrate. All i can think about are the words, "You shouldn't get into a relationship. It's not fair to the woman to put that much pressure on her. You can't pin all your happiness on a love. There's more to life than just that, and until you see that you won't find someone."

 

Which is all stuff i knew, but i was hoping somehow i was wrong. i was hoping that it just wasn't true, and everything would just work - that if i just waited long enough things would work themselves out. "Just hang in there."

 

Women do not like me; who i am women do not like. Unless i get some professional help and change who i am, i will be alone. It's kind of depressing to know that i'm so different from the majority of people that i shouldn't even bother women.

 

-----

 

Edit: A little thing that i've had for a long time:

 

- alive

- alone

 

Get rid of one.

[AWT]

i think it is something like a touch of aspergers - i like talking with people about a limited subset of things; things that interest me.

 

Hi,

 

As an aside, I wrote my suicide note at 26, I'm 42 now...

 

I've been told by three people that I have Aspergers - I also still have a sort of inner despair/self-hatred problem but my ability to dissociate from that side of me has allowed me to respond quite normally. I've been married, had children, got divorced because I thought I was gay, had a gay relationship.

 

Life 'happened' to me one way or another. I'm taking time to see that there is a real, feeling person somewhere inside - Just a lot of the time I can't see it objectively.

[youngpup]

I've been married, had children, got divorced because I thought I was gay, had a gay relationship.

 

During university i wondered if i was gay. It would have explained why i'd never been with a woman. And it would make things easier, since there's about 100 single guys for every single woman.

 

But i rejected it, i'm too attracted to women

[Tarkan]

Man, it would be sad to not have you around anymore because you speak so much words of wisdom. It reminds me off my own situation. Of course it can't be compared since I am only 23 years old. I wish I could do something for you since your story made me sad ( bouhouhou, I just started feeling better ).

 

Maybe your quest for love is the cause for your depression ? It seems that you aren't happy without it. But what about being happy without love first ? It's like a negative spiral you see. Because of your depression it's hard to find love. And because you can't love you feel even worse.

 

I won't come up with the whole confidence speach because it's easy to say that from my perspective. Like someone said before me, it's also easy to fake so it's all relative. Actually, I think you really know yourself and what you want. I mean, you can give a perfect description about your feelings and that's a great thing.

 

Selfknowledge is the first step to wisdom !

 

You also have achieved quiet alot. Your own car, You own house, a level 80 probably ;-) . I mean, Sometimes I am afraid I'll live in my moms basement later so you can already be happy about that ! And c'mon, you are 40 not it's not too late to live ! The 40'ies are like the second puberty

 

 

If you want to talk with me I'll be glad to help

 

 

PS: What class do you play ? ^^

[youngpup]

Maybe your quest for love is the cause for your depression? It seems that you aren't happy without it. But what about being happy without love first?

 

i tried to be happy, i tried various distractions (i.e. hobbies, work). But it doesn't change the fact that i'm alone. And nobody can pretend that it doesn't really matter; you just can't - we all know it.

 

 

It's like a negative spiral you see. Because of your depression it's hard to find love. And because you can't love you feel even worse.

 

i know that i'll be happy when i'm loved. But i know i won't be loved until i'm happy. i thought i was loved twice before, and had a lot of confidence because of it. (Look at this beautiful girl that wants to be with me!). Turns out i was confusing a woman trying to help me, or simply being nice, for affection.

 

You also have achieved quiet alot. Your own car, You own house, a level 80 probably ;-) . I mean, Sometimes I am afraid I'll live in my moms basement later so you can already be happy about that !

 

It's easy to save money when you don't do anything.

 

i'm 35. i lived with my parents, saving money, until i was 30. Then one day something happened, and i realized that if i was going to be alone forever i could either

 

- live with my parents parents

- get an apartment

- get a house

 

i had plenty of savings for a downpayment, and interest rates were low (in 2004), so i got a house. i lied to myself, saying that the reason i never dated was because i'd be embarassed to bring anyone home to my parents house, and that i'd be having quite a lot of sex in my new house. Turns out it's not living with parents that was preventing me from finding someone; it was me.

 

 

 

PS: What class do you play ? ^^

 

Level 80 tankadin.

[waveseer]

If you want to meet someone, the best way is to force yourself to become social. You don't have to do it forever (or you may eventually grow to like it) but it will provide you with the skills and confidence necessary to find and interest a mate.

 

Set aside your solitary pastimes and venture out of your home. Start small if you need to in your yard and neighborhood. Talk with everyone you see. Be friendly. Get to know your neighbors. Then expand your horizons, head out into public. Check out relaxed daytime gatherings like art fairs and outdoor concerts. Again, talk to everyone even if you are just making eye contact and saying hello.

 

Keep us posted on your progress. You can do this if you want.

[youngpup]

Start small if you need to in your yard and neighborhood.

 

What do i say?

 

i mean it, literally.

 

Given that i don't care about the weather. i don't care about how much work their interlocking pavers driveway was to put in. i don't care that they're finishing their basement, or putting in a pool, or putting up a fence. Or got a cat, or hate having to deal with weeds in the lawn.

 

 

So i mean it, literally, what do i say?

 

i can do, "Hi" But after that i'm stumped.

[waveseer]

What do i say?

 

i mean it, literally.

 

Given that i don't care about the weather. i don't care about how much work their interlocking pavers driveway was to put in. i don't care that they're finishing their basement, or putting in a pool, or putting up a fence. Or got a cat, or hate having to deal with weeds in the lawn.

 

 

So i mean it, literally, what do i say?

 

i can do, "Hi" But after that i'm stumped.

 

Try caring about people, just try, you might just surprise yourself. My belief is that we are all in this thing called life together and I am pretty happy most of the time.

[NightLily]

You keep saying you have been waiting to see if things would change or if you would be proved wrong. The longer you just wait the more of your life is just going to pass you by. You have been waiting for 13 years. I have been waiting for 9. Time for both of us to stop waiting.

[somethngwrng]

Have you ever thought about going to a WoW meet, or organising a LAN event in your area with a small group of people who are interested in it? I've been a gamer for a long time and I know how easy it is to talk about them, in depth, for hours on end - with other gamers. This probably won't help you find a woman, but it will cure your loneliness a bit and take your mind off things. There's also the added bonus of opening a social network, perhaps leading you to a woman..

 

Do you have many friends in game that you play regularly with? Just out of interest... how do you get along with those people?

 

 

What do you mean by this?

 

People generally like to talk about... themselves. The weekend they had, no matter how mundane to you. The jerk that cut them off on the way to work. Talk to other people about their lives, and they'll lend an ear in return. Friendships are a two way street.

[youngpup]

Have you ever thought about going to a WoW meet, or organising a LAN event in your area with a small group of people who are interested in it?

 

i've never thought about it. It would be easier, and more practical, to leave our machines at home and play online (what are you going to do...all start Level One's on the same server and do the starting quests for 3 hours?).

 

Do you have many friends in game that you play regularly with? Just out of interest... how do you get along with those people?

 

There was 3-5 coworkers that we all starting playing at launch. They left shortly before TBC. One came back shortly after Wrath.

 

And after hours people don't want to talk shop, and nobody wants to hear a guy moan about his life (especially when he doesn't have to be alone - it seems to be self-inflicted).

 

What do you mean by this?

 

The main things in my head, that i'd be able to talk about, are

- computers - gaming

- computers - programming/work

- saddness

 

When work is over, most people don't want to talk about work-related stuff. And nobody wants to hear me talk about your saddness.

 

Hey, Needy Guy, that's me!

image removed

[somethngwrng]

i've never thought about it. It would be easier, and more practical, to leave our machines at home and play online (what are you going to do...all start Level One's on the same server and do the starting quests for 3 hours?).

Well, you can play any game that supports LAN. FPS games, strategy games, car games, party games... it's not all about the games, it's just having a good time with people.

 

 

 

There was 3-5 coworkers that we all starting playing at launch. They left shortly before TBC. One came back shortly after Wrath.

I meant more along the lines of people you have met in the game. Your guildmembers or just people on your friends list. Surely you don't play solo all the time? How is your general relationship with these people? Do you confide in anyone, in the game? Also, do you talk to the guy at work that plays, much?

 

 

 

The main things in my head, that i'd be able to talk about, are

- computers - gaming

- computers - programming/work

- saddness

 

When work is over, most people don't want to talk about work-related stuff. And nobody wants to hear me talk about your saddness.

So meet people you can talk about gaming with. There are also plenty of programming IRC channels. Anything you do regularly and/or have an interest in can be a point of conversation, so long as you feel knowledgable enough to talk about it.

[youngpup]

I meant more along the lines of people you have met in the game. Your guildmembers or just people on your friends list. Surely you don't play solo all the time? How is your general relationship with these people? Do you confide in anyone, in the game? Also, do you talk to the guy at work that plays, much?

 

i occasionally talk to a few people online. The guild was mainly just us co-workers. Since the company is nine of us, and seven of us sit in the same long office, we talk all the time - and often about the game; but also about other stuff.

 

Other than that, in WoW, i have 2 or 3 people i occasionally talk to.

[AWT]

During university i wondered if i was gay. It would have explained why i'd never been with a woman.

 

Sorry, I think you misunderstood my point.. I wasn't suggesting that you were subconsciously gay, but following on from your description of Aspergers-like symptoms and how I have those traits.

 

I've always had difficulties in social situations because of a weak sense of identity and overcompensation for my poor self-image. As a result I found myself constructing a sort of 'outer shell' that interacts with people that I constantly monitored and modified - it was mentally exhausting. But despite that, as I said, over my life so far two relationships have 'happened' to me.

 

Part of me couldn't understand what the one woman (and one man) I have been involved with desired in me. But another part knew that there must be some qualities there that I'm just not aware that I have.

 

This is the important point though - Both relationships started when I wasn't actively seeking them, but at times when I had decided to try and break my daily routine and 'get out there' despite the fear of change I felt.

 

I met my ex-wife on the residential part of a correspondence course in 1992 (because I wanted to get engineering qualifications to improve my job prospects), and I met the guy I was involved with attending a self-help group for people that have 'come out' but felt isolated.

 

I'm alone again myself.. Not really sure that I'm gay, basically. But even though I'm very down and confused, I know that there's another chapter of my life to begin somewhere out there. Life goes on - Who knows what's around the corner, but each twist and turn you learn new lessons...

[youngpup]

All the responses telling me what has to happen before i'll find someone, and that i shouldn't have a relationship until i'm fixed, reminded me of my place in the world.

 

i've calmed down quite a bit - back to my cold, empty, detached state.

 

Hopefully i'll be able to remain calm, relaxed, logical, and make the next 5 years pass less painfully.

[NightLily]

youngpup- You sound as though you are a man with a lot of love to give. There are people out there struggling with similar issues as you do and some of them are certaintly women. Such a situation could be volatile.. but possibly also beneficial for both of you. There are many support groups for singles or people suffering from depression. You could join one of them and find a like minded woman?

[penelope13]

I can understand that someone is shy and is afraid of having a conversation and might be depressed. But honestly: every single suggestion you've gotten on this thread you are shooting down for one reason or another.

 

You are just setting yourself up for failure by locking yourself behind work and in your house and then you say: see I was right, I am still alone, life doesn't deserve me.

 

YOu want a relationship? You have to do something for it like he rest of us, regardless if you are shy or confident.

 

Dating is a number game, but if you never play, you can never win - your computer games surely have taught you by now that you only can become an expert with practice and experience. I am sure you didn't sit down and immediately scored top marks at your first trial (sorry I don't know anything about computer games).

 

If you are shy and you have trouble with thinking about something to say: either try therapy (just because it didn't work for a specific individual means that it won't work for you), or try to take a communication course. I'm sure you can afford it.

 

 

It communication is your hick up, start small, i.e. with people/ situations where you are not anxious about.

 

Volunteering might not be a sure way to finding someone to date, but it is a sure way to connect to another person and to learn social skills.

[kmae23]

I hope you understand what i was trying to get accross. I feel that way about my own situation. I am lonely and would like somebody. But I have to say no to myself. Because I know I am not ready to give someone else what they need.

 

And also, if you think you are bad off now. What would happen if you found someone and it didn't work? Usually the first relationship you have isn't a forever one. Sometimes but not usually. So I am saying, if you are not whole with yourself, this can potentially push you off the edge. Ya know how people say, I wish I never met them, or I wish I could go back to when I never knew about love...blah blah. Well it can be bad in a different way being on the other side.

[youngpup]

Does any solution to this problem not involve forcing myself into awkward, painful, stilted conversations with people? Awkward silence, as my mind races, and fails, to find something else to say? Voulentarily duplicating some of the worst memories of my life, creating new ones?

 

Every single suggestion you've gotten on this thread you are shooting down for one reason or another.

 

i'm not shooting them down to be difficult. It's not like i've not thought of them already. i've had a long time to think about this, and me, about what i am capable of. i'm not stupid, i know what i need as a first baby-step. i know what i need. i know exactly what i need. Problem is that what i need isn't possible: i need a script. i need a script of mindless, innane, idiotic babble, that people don't find objectionable; and ideally find interesting. i realize the problem: you can't script this shit. It's something that has to be learned on your own. Again, i'm not stupid.

 

i go to my parents house every Sunday for dinner. We sit and eat, then we sit in the living room and talk. i don't so much talk, since i don't know what to say. So i sit there, generally, for 15 minutes, then go home. i can't even talk to my own parents - once a week.

 

i know exactly i need; i've found the way out, but there's no door there.

 

You are just setting yourself up for failure by locking yourself behind work and in your house and then you say: see I was right, I am still alone, life doesn't deserve me. You have to do something for it like he rest of us, regardless if you are shy or confident.

 

i realize it's a catch-22. i realize it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. i realize it's all my own fault. i realize this, i'm not stupid. i'd like to change, but i need help of someone i feel comfortable with. Right now i can manage being alive and creating profiles on singles sites; and i'll respond as soon as someone messages me. So i'm not completely cut off; i'm out there risking and taking more rejection.

 

Dating is a numbers game, but if you never play, you can never win

 

A woman, that i care about very much, once said to me:

 

"I want you to go out and date, Ian. I don't want you to be alone. You're a great guy, and there's plenty of women out there who would love to know you - I know this. But you have to actually go out and meet them, you have to go out on dates. Not every person is right for each other, and you'll have to meet a few before you find the girl that is right for you. It doesn't mean you're not a good person if the first few don't work out; it just means you're not right for each other. Move on to the next one and try again. You will find her, Ian. Promise me you will do this for me."

 

i'm sorry

 

 

(sorry I don't know anything about computer games)

 

It was quite cute to see you trying to use an analogy

 

 

If communication is your hick-up, start small, i.e. with people/situations where you are not anxious about.

 

That would be people at work when we discuss work stuff, politics of the day, or something else interesting. But i don't see any of that applying anywhere else - it doesn't apply to people at work outside of those converstations. Sitting together at lunch, i might occasionally have something i want to say; but never can i think of anything to say out of the blue.

[youngpup]

What would happen if you found someone and it didn't work? Usually the first relationship you have isn't a forever one.

 

It technically wouldn't be my first relationship.

 

My first relationship was when i was 23. i fell in love, she said she loved me; but it turns out in more of a "I care about you" way.

 

Second was a girl who just wanted sex, and was engaged.

 

Third, we talked a few times online before having an actual date (the only "date" i've ever had). She never spoke to me again.

 

Then a dozen or so women who talked to me once online, maybe twice, before never speaking to me again.

 

With one woman, we e-mailed back and forth for a month before she stopped talking to me suddenly.

 

My favorite was a female client, who thought i was a nice guy, and wanted to set me up with her sister. i spoke to her sister twice online before she blocked me.

 

More recently, met a women and dated for 2 weeks before she realized she didn't like me. But we continued to be 'friends with benefits' for three and a half months before she didn't want to speak to me anymore.

 

And most recently, a girl who talked to me online, and with over voice and camera, who said i could always talk to her about anything....who i've fallen in love with - but who "doesn't like me like that".

[youngpup]

And now a practical example.

 

Rather than going to bed at 11PM last night, i stayed up until 3AM talking to a girl i like. She doesn't like me, but she said i could still talk to her.

 

Now when i say i stay up for 4 hours talking to her, i overstated it a little. Mostly i stared at a blinking cursor in Messenger, frantically trying to think of something to say. i said 6 or 7 things to her in four hours. This is a girl i've talked to nearly every day for over a year and a half; who said 'i could always talk to her, she'll always listen.'

 

Now lets translate this into the real (i.e. non-online) world. Imagine walking up to a girl, saying,

"Hi, my name is Ian."

 

"Hi, Ian."

 

And then i stand there for 40 minutes frantically trying to think of something to say. In reality that wouldn't happen - i'd sit next to her. Forty minutes later i might have something else to say; but i'm sure she'd have long been creeped out by the guy sitting next to her.

 

This isn't abstract theory.