is not wearing makeup unprofessional?

[Aleadragonhawk]

Hmm. I know a lot of women who don't wear makeup for cultural and/or religious reasons.

[Batya33]

If that were the reason then certainly I would agree that that is a battle that is worth fighting. But that isn't the reason the OP gave - she just doesn't feel like it.

[itsallgrand]

Thanks for the update. I'm hoping it runs smooth for you from here on out.

 

Your choice seems rather reasonable to me considering what is important to you. Choosing to not force the jeans was a good idea.

[Cimmie]

I had an interesting discussion with some girlfriends on a subject similar to this last night. One of them is a high powered lawyer and she was talking about one of the secretaries to an equity partner in her firm. This woman has years of experience, and knows the partner's business almost as well if not better than he does himself. She's a total asset to him and she is paid very well. The problem is that her appearance is a mess. She turns up to work with toothpaste stains on her clothes, with her makeup all over the place (orange tidemarks, panda eyes etc.) the net result is that they do not want her to meet with clients. Several large hints have been dropped and I think her boss even gave her a large box of very expensive high end cosmetics as a Christmas gift last year, but she is still wondering why they don't want her in the room with clients....

 

Not saying the OP is comparable, just that in a corporate environment, women are expected to be well turned out, glamorous even. That is part of the uniform, even if it's not openly stated. We may get on our feminist high horse about it, but we all need to earn a good wage. He who pays the piper calls the tune, so I think we ladies need to suck it up and slap on the slap, whether we like it or not.

[JadedStar]

Good post Cimmie. And for those who think it is unfair, people who meet with clients are performing PR work. Studies have shown that clients react more favorably to pleasant looking people. This does not mean one has to be a sueprmodel, just that keeping onself in the best manner possible is important.

 

Now the OP says she doesn't meet with clients - so maybe this does not apply. BUT MAYBE they would like her to meet with clients more and that is why they made the request.

 

if it were me, I'd assume that i wasn't looking quite my best and if i liked the job would make a small effort to appease. If i worked in a company that never interfaced with clients, ever, i'd feel differently.

 

She works for a lawfirm. If we are realistic here lawyers are one of the very few professions left where the dresscode is still extremely professional. Bowties are even still common in this industry (can't get much more stiff than that!) whereas most other companies and industries are much more laidback. you rarely even see lawyers trying cases in polos and khakis. You see that in most other corporate entities.

 

So in a nutshell this request is not entirely unreasonable given that it is a lawfirm. They are still very old school when it comes to attire and appearance.

[CaptainPlanet]

So what if you're just ugly ? can't ugly people man or woman work corporate ?

[Cimmie]

That's not the point. We are talking about grooming, not looks per se. Make up and good hairstyle are polish to a woman, just as an expensive suit, shave and haircut are to a man.

 

No one said anything about 'ugliness'.

[CaptainPlanet]

ok well i've only walked into 4 corporate offices in my life so the experience is somewhat limited, but, I must say on those four occasions every woman I saw was a knock out. The only ones that weren't were old and were obviously knock outs when they were young.

[Eastend_Chic]

come too a compromise, slap it on half of your face and leave the other half with no make up

 

Lmao. What a sight to behold

[Eastend_Chic]

Now the OP says she doesn't meet with clients - so maybe this does not apply. BUT MAYBE they would like her to meet with clients more and that is why they made the request.

 

You know, this could actually be the case. To the OP, you might wnat to consider this

 

I remember watching an episode of Law & Order and one of the judges told one lawyer(Jill Henessey) that she should wear a skirt in his courtroom. I was baffled and seeing that she's such a stubborn woman (her character) i was kinda surprised when the next morning she did. I guess somethings you have to accept.

[TheSmilingTurnip]

You know, this could actually be the case. To the OP, you might wnat to consider this

 

I remember watching an episode of Law & Order and one of the judges told one lawyer(Jill Henessey) that she should wear a skirt in his courtroom. I was baffled and seeing that she's such a stubborn woman (her character) i was kinda surprised when the next morning she did. I guess somethings you have to accept.

 

They are not intending for me to meet with more clients.

 

No, actually, I do *not* have to just accept this gender stereotype.

 

Furthermore, there is someone here today who is clad almost entirely in denim, the same kind of denim that I was told not to wear anymore. *That* I will just have to accept. Whatever.

 

Sexism is alive and well, just a tad more subtle these days. I just read a story in US News and World Report today that stated that female politicians are STILL more likely to have their appearance discussed in the media than their positions on the issues. Furthermore, women are more likely to be referred to in the media by their first names. And this was a comparison of coverage of women politicians today and in the 1870's, when women couldn't even vote!!!!

 

Not only that, but of the, I don't know the exact number, maybe five female leaders they had identified as being a top American leader, only two were completely made up, one of which was the head of a cosmetics company. One had no makeup and the remaining two had very minimal makeup.

 

Expecting that it's ok to tell a woman she must wear makeup or she will be thought less of, even if her work is top notch and she's a valuable member of the team, is a subtle form of sexism.

[Eastend_Chic]

I didnt say it's something YOU have to accept. I meant in the case of lawyers where a judge cant outright tell you the kinda clothes to wear that's weird.

 

I dont know why you're even surprised by all this btw. Women STILL make less than men in the job world so do minorities. You can either be an activitst and lose time in getting a good degree that will have you at a better job and more security for your daughter or do the opposite by sucking it up and remind yourself that this job isnt for ever.

[JadedStar]

No, actually, I do *not* have to just accept this gender stereotype.

 

No, you don't. But until you find yourself living in a perfect world just know there are percussions to every action.

 

And if you want to make this one of your battles to fight go for it.

 

You asked the question here to get a variety of responses, which you have. Quite a few great ones. Many have stated this would not be on their "battles list" and explained why. If that is not the case for you, sue away.

 

As for your denim clad friend at work - personally I concern myself with my own attire and grooming, not anyone else's (unless they worked for me and interfaced with clients). People always think if someone is doing something like this that no one is saying anyhting. You dont' know if anything was said or will be said to that employee or if it is going to hurt her chances of promotion in the future so it is best not to worry about what others are doing.

 

To CP, good grooming and "ugliness" are two very different things. Not one person here said anything about ugly.

it is about looking your best by employing strong grooming habits.

[TheSmilingTurnip]

I didnt say it's something YOU have to accept. I meant in the case of lawyers where a judge cant outright tell you the kinda clothes to wear that's weird.

 

I dont know why you're even surprised by all this btw. Women STILL make less than men in the job world so do minorities. You can either be an activitst and lose time in getting a good degree that will have you at a better job and more security for your daughter or do the opposite by sucking it up and remind yourself that this job isnt for ever.

 

I didn't say I was surprised. I said I don't think it's right. I'm not sure what you're talking about with wasting time. It's *not* right for women to make less money nor is that right for minorities. Are we to just go along to get along forever? What else should we just accept?

 

I'm not trying to change hearts and minds. It's just my opinion. Everyone has the right to state theirs and there have been great responses and I've appreciated them.

[TheSmilingTurnip]

I concern myself with my own grooming too. It's unfortunate that so many other people in this world don't do the same. And more unfortunate that I work with so many.

 

I only note this person's outfit because I find it strange that I am being treated differently. Not because I intend to run to management and complain about it. And, furthermore, there's nothing wrong with being aware and observing things.

[Eastend_Chic]

I didn't say I was surprised. I said I don't think it's right. I'm not sure what you're talking about with wasting time. It's *not* right for women to make less money nor is that right for minorities. Are we to just go along to get along forever? What else should we just accept?

 

I'm not trying to change hearts and minds. It's just my opinion. Everyone has the right to state theirs and there have been great responses and I've appreciated them.

 

 

Óf course it's not right. Just saying you should focus more on your degree than what a bunch of chauvanistic pigs are doing then you'd have more opporrtunity to pick and choose a job that values you more

[JadedStar]

I concern myself with my own grooming too. It's unfortunate that so many other people in this world don't do the same. And more unfortunate that I work with so many.

 

I only note this person's outfit because I find it strange that I am being treated differently. Not because I intend to run to management and complain about it. And, furthermore, there's nothing wrong with being aware and observing things.

 

 

You have no idea how this person is treated behind closed doors or what conversations her managers have had with her. It is a bad thing to assume.

No one advertises one on one convos they had with their management.

 

Maybe she is taking a stand as you are. if you don't want to be judged for your appearance it is best not to do it to others. All I'm sayin.

[TheSmilingTurnip]

You have no idea how this person is treated behind closed doors or what conversations her managers have had with her. It is a bad thing to assume.

No one advertises one on one convos they had with their management.

 

Maybe she is taking a stand as you are. if you don't want to be judged for your appearance it is best not to do it to others. All I'm sayin.

 

How she looks is not the point. I didn't say she looked bad. I am not judging her. Let her wear denim and I hope she's comfy and I'm certainly not going to be going to management and making waves for her or anyone else.

 

Why management is ok with her wearing denim but not ok with me is a reasonable question that anyone in my shoes would ask. And I know very well that management is not questioning it. I've worked here for five years and my take on the situation is very accurate.

 

This thread is about whether it is unprofessional to not wear makeup and, by implication, unfair treatment to certain groups of people in the workplace, ie women et al. One has to trust that I'm not just making myself into a victim who's whining about unfair treatment that doesn't exist.

 

Anyway, I think this topic's been covered and every aspect has been discussed so I think we're good here. Thanks for your perspective, I have enjoyed reading others' viewpoints on the matter.

[Batya33]

Women may be asked to wear makeup and in many corporate environments, men are asked to shave their faces and keep their hair a certain length.

[JadedStar]

My point was - how do you KNOW specifically that she has not been spoken to about wearing the denim and has chosen to make a stand about it as you are with makeup? Just like you i doubt she will be fired for not complying, it will probably just make her promotional opptys more limited or her reference strained, but if this is somethign she feels worth fighting for maybe she is doing the same thing you are.

 

It would seem premature to get upset thinking she is getting special treatment when she may be bucking the system as you are.

 

 

You don't know what conversations her managers have had with her.

And I know very well that management is not questioning it. I've worked here for five years and my take on the situation is very accurate.

 

HOW do you know? I have never known an employee to be privvy to private conversations that are being had with their direct reports. I was once with a company from ground up to management for 15 years and still could not tell someone what private conversations were taking place with the employees if the employees did not report to me. I just fail to see how your being there for five years has any bearing on knowing if your take is accurate. One's "take" sounds more like a gut feel vs fact.

 

I am just saying that you are using her as an example but without facts to support if she has not been spoken to as well you can't be sure.

 

 

And as many have mentioned I doubt you will be fired for not wearing makeup but you might blacklist yourself from advancement with that company. SInce you say you don't care then go for it. Perception is everything in the business world.

[beauty21]

is not wearing makeup unprofessional?

 

Absolutely not.

[TheSmilingTurnip]

Mein gott. I value your viewpoint and you're obviously quite intellingent, but the reason that I know is because I'm here, physically, in the office, and you're not. You're in the ethers of the internet. That's why I know and you don't.

 

Now we're not even talking about my stance on makeup lol. Trust me, I *am* being treated differently with regard to the denim. There's absolutely no question about that. I'm not the only one in this office who thinks so. I checked it out with people who've been here for years because I was trying to figure out initially what was wrong with my wardrobe choice that would attract so much attention. When it comes to wearing appropiate clothing, just like any other worker, male or female, I have no problem complying with stated rules.

 

That said, fyi, there is a big difference between her and I that is about the same as skin color. And the manager who decided I can't wear denim is known to be discriminatory.

 

That's all I have to say about that. Thanks for your viewpoint. It is definitely a good idea to avoid wallowing in victimhood and I can see that that's what you're encouraging me to do.

[TheSmilingTurnip]

Women may be asked to wear makeup and in many corporate environments, men are asked to shave their faces and keep their hair a certain length.

 

Yes, that's right, because it's viewed as neater. Not prettier. Neater. They're not being asked to doll themselves up to look better for the men that work here.

 

Men are just as capable of wearing makeup as women are. They can wear foundation, they can wear eyeliner (guyliner). We've just been conditioned to accept the gender stereotype that only women wear it.

 

So, bottom line, it's not unprofessional for a woman to not wear makeup, just as it's not unprofessional for a man not to.

[JadedStar]

Mein gott. I value your viewpoint and you're obviously quite intellingent, but the reason that I know is because I'm here, physically, in the office, and you're not. You're in the ethers of the internet. That's why I know and you don't.

 

I didn't say I would know. I am saying that i have never known an employee to know what personal conversations another employee has had with her manager unless the person in question has shared them, which has not happened in this case.

 

Saying "i just know" sounds like a gut feel and gut feels can be incorrect.

 

As long as you know that what are fighting for is worth fighting for in your mind and you are prepared for the consequence - be it good or bad, then I think you should stick by your convictions. All some of us were doing was saying why it wouldn't be one of our battles and if perhaps any of that was helpful you could use it, but if not then at the end of the day it is your life, your job, not ours.

[TheSmilingTurnip]

Mein gott. I value your viewpoint and you're obviously quite intellingent, but the reason that I know is because I'm here, physically, in the office, and you're not. You're in the ethers of the internet. That's why I know and you don't.

 

I didn't say I would know. I am saying that i have never known an employee to know what personal conversations another employee has had with her manager unless the person in question has shared them, which has not happened in this case.

 

Saying "i just know" sounds like a gut feel and gut feels can be incorrect.

 

Well I never said it but yes I do feel that the less we walk around in victimhood the better we feel about our lives, but i never said it in this scenario.

 

No, you didn't, but it would have been ok had you done so. There is a fine line between observing what's going on and wallowing, and while I'm not wallowing, I am definitely observing. It would be pretty easy to wallow though.