How did you cure YOUR jealousy and co-dependency?!?!

[netman]

I've read a lot of posts and replies here from people who have jealous and co-dependent partners. Many of us are here because WE are the jealous and co-dependent ones, and we're all trying to find ways to "fix" ourselves. I know that I read through the posts to see how other people cope and deal with their jealous thoughts and ways, and this has helped me tremendously.

 

I have 2 questions that I'm hoping some of you can answer:

 

1.) Does anyone want to share how you cured and rid yourself of your co-dependant and/or jealous ways of thinking, or at least what you've done to better yourself?

2.) Can a jealous and/or co-dependant person really be cured and rid the jealousy and/or co-dependency?

[mistyeyes1]

You may be able to control your jeaousy and co-dependancy, but it will never leave you because these are emotions. And sooner or later they will come out. They are who you are. It does not make you a bad person by any means, but that is you. There is no shame in it either, but some people cannot stand being with jealous or co-dependants. You can try to get hobbies and do things alone, but eventually you will want to be with that person all the time. The perfect situation is too find someone who also wants to be with you all the time. There are plenty of couples who get together and do everything together. That is co-dependancy and they are right for each other. But again, jealosuy is always going to be there. You can try to ignore it, or just not care, but if you stop caring, you may stop caring for the person you are with. And eventually all your feelings will come out and can do more damage.

 

People may post here how they have helped make it better, but the emotions will still be there. And if you try to not think about it, you are in a sense thinking about it. I think even if you control the jealousy, eventually it will come out and cause a huge fight.

[autumn]

Dear netman,

 

Over time i've read some of your posts, and have noticed that this issue is a real struggle for you. I'm encouraged by your determination and desire to deal with this, and i'm sure you've tried everything in the book.

 

By no means am i any kind of expert in this area, and i have problems of my own, but let me share some thoughts that i feel very strongly about.

 

Sorry if this is a little long...

 

I think mistyeyes1 does have some valid points - but does not really offer a solution to the ailing. I know people who are terribly co-dependant and jealous and it causes them a lot of grief. They want to be free from it.

 

Recently, I also went through a case of over-attachment, and began to see obsessive and co-dependant behaviour in myself. I was very distraught to learn that I had this problem. For me, the severeness of it was relatively short-lived as I faced my problems and dealt with them.

 

I have also watched people close to me go through these issues, and, in most cases, at least from my experience, they were with the wrong person. In some of these cases, even jealousy was warranted because their partner was doing things that caused mistrust. Very often the ailing and jealous person is the "martyr" in the relationship, taking some form of abuse and hurt, keeping it inside, thinking that it is an expression of love. I think that it stems from a great desire to be loved. The co-dependant person will often be trying to "earn" the love of the partner. It is difficult for them to practice a love that is "withdrawn" in some way. Any perceived lack of closeness is interpreted as severe detachment and causes grief.

 

I remember watching a show on tv where horses in the wild were shown to discipline their young by "detachment." A mother and the family would separate themselves from the young calf - keeping a distance that was more and more felt with the passing moments of time. This separation became unbearable to the young calf and it would yearn to be back together with its mother and the rest of the flock. The mother would know just the right moment to let the young calf back in.

 

Unfortunately not many people are raised with a "tempered" and loving discipline. Various "devices" are used to justify and instil fear and obedience in children - alcoholism, drugs, even God/religion are some of the cruel ways of dictating and controlling one's world. Children are naturally loving, and try to earn the love of their parents, but in these situations, rarely experience a love that is unconditional and genuine. It is this same love that is sought when we grow older. Unfortunately, these children find themselves over and over again in relationships with people that require this conditional love from them. In other cases, they confuse their partners when they are always "giving" and expressing great affection with an underlying desire to earn love in return. Some people will never find true satisfaction in a love that comes free and unearned. This is sad.

 

In some people, these tendencies stay hidden for many years. Until they meet someone who is codependant and jealous, these traits were almost non-existant. The overbearing co-dependancy of one, can awaken these confusing feelings in the partner, but only until the relationship has been done with.

 

Let me pose some questions: Do you honestly feel that you are loved for who you are - unconditionally? Do you, in turn, love unconditionally? Do you love and support your partner for who they are, lifting them up and making them feel good and supported in their walks of life? Do you smile for them when they are happy, or do you make them feel guilty for not allowing yourself to be their source/"bringer" of happiness? Go back to day one - when you met - why are you treating them differently now? What attracted you to them - and do you still love those things about them?

 

Now let me challenge you: Your concept of what love is and how it should be may be wrong. Your needs may be wrongly rooted in learning or upbringing that needs to be rooted up and corrected. People have different views of what love is - how do you know your view is right?

 

I believe that trusting unconditionally and loving your life and the people around you (not just your partner) can bring you freedom from your fears and jealousies. Your partner must fit in to this "vision of happiness" in your life. Trusting your partner will bring you the same happiness, because you choose to be free from fear and to love. And if that trust is ever broken, be strong - and don't let it change you - appreciate the love and good times for what they are worth.

 

Let me remind you...CHANGE is very hard...it is terrifying to see deeply-rooted ways that need to be changed when you truthfully look at yourself and assess yourself and the world around you. Some people need a "life-changing" event or experience to make this happen, and rarely is that a positive one. Hopefully one can see the truth before this happens. Honest change takes great determination and discipline. It's a painful road, and full of failures, but it brings happiness.

 

Wishing you the best...

[Mar]

I have to add my own thoughts to this, as I was terribly codependent for YEARS, and had never heard the term until someone pointed it out to me.

 

For me, my codependency consisted of always, ALWAYS, placing others before myself, to the point of being used, and sometimes abused. (Not physically, but certainly mentally and emotionally, as I was a handy doormat.) And I saw nothing wrong with it. I was brought up in a house where my father was an alcoholic, my mother was extremely angry/depressed by this, my sister had ADD, which just added to the mix when they didn't know WHAT was wrong with her, and I just was the "crowd-pleaser" and "yes-woman" to everyone, trying to stay out of striking distance.

 

It carried on until late in my senior year of high school, when a friend of mine, older and wiser, took me out to dinner one night and explained that my bending over backwards and being used by people for affection/attention was "codependency." How shocked was I?! He recommended a book to me-"Codependent No More." Quite honestly, that book was a lifesaver. I decided I'd highlight every facet that accurately described me, and, lo and behold, just about the entire book was highlighted when I was done, and I had some serious thinking to do about my self-esteem and what I wanted my life to be.

 

It's personal choice, but for me, the answer was sitting down and actually writing out the things I did to gain attention, what I didn't like about myself, how realistic or unrealistic those things were, where I wanted to see my life go, etc. And I was a most unhappy camper at the end of it. But I struggled, and worked on myself, and, most importantly, learned to say "NO" when the situation called for it, which was the hardest part, and what I think is the hardest for ANY codependent person. And every time I did, a felt that spark of triumph that signaled that I'd FINALLY done something right for myself and was on the way to further improvement.

 

It took me about 2 years of hard work, and introspection, and cutting out the "bad elements" in my life-but I did it, and gained back my self-esteem, my confidence, and my love for myself, which may sound kind of queer until you've lost it and never realized how important it was until you found it again.

 

No one can do this for you....YOU have to do it. It's a matter of self-respect, and goals, and understanding what you want out of your life and who you want to be, and how much you're going to tolerate. But I'm a firm believer that, unless you're incredibly weak, this is NOT insurmountable by any means! I wish you the best of luck, and hope that, with some thought and pen and paper or whatever works for you, you can work out where it is you want to go in this lifetime!

[netman]

Thank you all for you replies, especially yours Davidlg. I read, re-read, and re-read what you wrote and it really made me think about the way I've been dealing with my relationship. You have so many good points, but these really made an impact:

I think that it stems from a great desire to be loved. The co-dependant person will often be trying to "earn" the love of the partner. It is difficult for them to practice a love that is "withdrawn" in some way. Any perceived lack of closeness is interpreted as severe detachment and causes grief.

I look at my g/f who is so gorgeous and beautiful in every which way, and I sometimes wonder what it is she finds in me, and if whatever feeling she has for me would ever fade, so I would always ask for her reassurance, and if she was sad for any reason, I would associate her sadness with the status of our relationship and wonder if she's become unhappy with me, which is never the case. This I have to stop....

they confuse their partners when they are always "giving" and expressing great affection with an underlying desire to earn love in return.

I've done this so many times; I would do something nice for my g/f and I wouldn't be just satisfied with her thank you's and I love you's. Deep down, each time I would hope that she would do something equally nice, only to get dissappointed when it didn't happen. I guess that I've been giving her conditional love instead of the unconditional love that she deserves. This I'm going to change.

Your concept of what love is and how it should be may be wrong. Your needs may be wrongly rooted in learning or upbringing that needs to be rooted up and corrected. People have different views of what love is - how do you know your view is right?

You're totally right. I've been too busy trying to get my g/f to love me the way I see love is supposed to be, instead of accepting her love for what it is. I love her so much, and she tries so hard to prove her love in her own little ways, and I've been so ungrateful in retrospect because she didn't do the things the little things that I wanted her to do for me. I think that this has to do with the fact that my ex g/f spoiled me in a certain way, and I wanted my g/f to be the same way, but I have to accept that they are 2 different people.

Trusting your partner will bring you the same happiness, because you choose to be free from fear and to love. And if that trust is ever broken, be strong - and don't let it change you - appreciate the love and good times for what they are worth.

This is probably the hardest thing to do, but I think that I can do it. If I could just be happy with my relationship and trust my g/f 100%, I know that I would probably be a much happier person instead of being obsessed with the thoughts of her doing something to break my trust. Plus, deep inside I know that if something WERE to happen to us, I know that I'd be ok and I'll be able to move on. So what am I so afraid of then?!?!

 

I woke up this morning really inspired by these replies. I'm going to work on changing my perception of what love is supposed to be, and I have to accept that I could be wrong in my deep-rooted thinking. I'll report back here in a few weeks with a progress report. Am I on the right track here?

[Azeiku]

This post was deleted by author.

[aleeper]

I had found I had these issues and had admitted to them but had not admitted that they could be changed. Once someone hit me with I would say a sledgehammer I finally started to see the light. If we so choose we can change anything in our personality. I had the interesting story of meeting a possible Phychologist on a singles site that chose to assist me, we became friends for the last 6 months he knew I did not trust and would get jelous. Basically what co-dependancy is, is the lack of phychological child development, you need to complete the child inside in other words. He told me this as well don't try to control that child inside try to teach her. It is lack of what we were taught as a child from our dysfunctional families in which sometimes we don't even believe were dysfunctional.

 

so if you walk yourself through these 12 steps unlike the other 12 steps that really didn't feel was doing me any good I feel you will get to the bottom of it. These best describe what I felt he was walking me through.

 

Step 1: Recognizing Co-Dependent Patterns

 

There are lots of ways to avoid recognizing the existence of co-dependency. It's like being asleep. You dream that things are one way. Even if they aren't that way, you keep dreaming. Because almost everything you have been exposed to has co-dependent overtones, you may not be aware that there is something better.

 

For some of you, denial may have been a learned survival or safety mechanism. If you really saw or talked about what was happening in your family where you grew up, you might not have survived childhood. You may have been taught not to notice what was happening to you and to other people in your family in order to maintain a "one big happy family" fantasy for the outside world. Of all the things you were taught to ignore, it is the lack of recognition of your own feelings that usually has the most devastating effects on you and your relationships. co-dependency, like most addictions, is a feeling disorder.

 

Step 2: Understanding the Causes of the Problem

 

There is much confusion in the literature about the actual causes of co-dependency. Some claim it is the result of a genetic weakness, while others claim it comes from contact with alcoholics or an alcoholic family. The main thesis of this ministry is that it is caused by a developmental flaw and it is learned dysfunctional behavior. It is also seen as a systemic problem related to growing up in a dysfunctional family and a dysfunctional society.

 

Step 3: Unraveling Co-Dependent Relationships

 

Once you understand that the causes of co-dependency originate in relationship dynamics that never got completed, you can begin to see how those dynamics recycle in your present relationships. The completion of your psychological birth process is the dynamic that is pressing for recognition all the time in co-dependent relationships. When you learn to recognize what you left undone, then, with additional support and new skills, you can consciously finish the process.

 

Step 4: Taking Back Your Projections

 

When you attempt to become separate by making others wrong or bad, you usually develop a lifestyle based on projection. You may twist reality to suit your need to be right and justify your behavior by making others wrong. Taking back these projections often requires theloving confrontation and support of group or family members, friends and partners, a spouse or a therapist. Projections are the building blocks in the wall of denial. They tend to fall away slowly until enough of the wall of denial is removed and the truth of who you and others are is finally revealed.

 

Step 5: Eliminating Self-Hate

 

If you didn't become separate from your mother or your family and you tried to separate by making them wrong or bad, you will likely end up making yourself wrong or bad as well. You may try to deny or cover up these negative feelings, but they usually run your life. It is necessary to uncover, claim and transform these negative images. They are based on misperceptions and illusions and are also the result of poor object constancy. By understanding that these projections are the source of your low self-esteem, you can correct them.

 

Step 6: Eliminating Power Plays and Manipulation

 

Lacking the full natural power that comes from the completion of the psychological birth, you are likely to utilize power plays and manipulations to get what you want. The drama triangle (persecutor, rescuer and victim roles) is a common way to manipulate others while remaining very passive. As you find more effective ways to get people to cooperate with you, the need to try to control others will drop away.

 

Step 7: Asking For What You Want

 

One of the most simple, straightforward ways to get what you want is to ask for it directly in such a way that people are delighted to give it to you (if they have it to give). What usually happens is that people don't ask directly ("I might be needing the car later.") and then get disappointed when people don't rescue them, or they ask with so much anger or resentment ("Damn it, I've got to have the car tonight! Can I have it?") that the other person resists and says no.

 

Step 8: Learning to Feel Again

 

Children raised in dysfunctional families learn very early to deny their feelings and thoughts about what is happening in their home. One of the most frequently denied feelings is anger, even though people in co-dependent relationships are angry much of the time. Anger has to be "'justified" in some way before it can be expressed. Someone has to be blamed or made the scapegoat for all the unhappiness in the family. Children often are used in this way. As an adult, you will have to reclaim the feelings that you denied in order to help you survive childhood. People cannot recover from codependency without reclaiming their feelings.

 

Step 9: Healing Your Inner Child

 

If you grew up in a dysfunctional family, you were taught to focus on what others were doing and not on what you were doing. You were forced to adopt a false self in order to please others. You also were forced to hide your true self, including your innocent, vulnerable inner child. Your inner child suffered from wounds administered by supposedly caring, loving people who may have laughed at you, teased you, showed no respect for you, not listened to you, physically beat you or ignored your most important needs. To keep from getting hurt, it may have been necessary for you to hide that part of you from the outside world. In the process, you also may have hidden that part from yourself. Recovery involves reconnecting with and healing your inner child.

 

Step 10: Defining Your Own Boundaries

 

Everyone has a psychological territory that is their own. It consists of your thoughts, feelings, behaviors and your body. Most people who came from a dysfunctional family had their territory violated so often as a child that as an adult they no longer are even aware of when it is happening. Most co-dependents have a very low awareness of their personal boundaries and almost no skills in defining and protecting their boundaries. It is essential for co-dependents to learn to define and protect their boundaries in effective ways if they wish to break their co-dependent patterns.

 

Step 11: Learning To Be Intimate

 

co-dependents both fear and desire intimacy. The fear is often that they will be controlled, hurt, engulfed or trampled by someone with whom they are intimate. Breaking co-dependency seems to require a rebonding process with another human being. People often need new parenting from someone like a therapist or another adult who can supply the missing information, touch or the nurturing support necessary to build object constancy and self-esteem.

 

Step 12: Learning New Forms of Relationship

 

Most people who have lived with co-dependent patterns for some time have little or no awareness of the richness of life that they are missing. Often it is some vague awareness that "There has to be more to life than this" that allows co-dependent people to start taking the risks to change. What replaces co-dependency is interdependency, where two or more people have learned to be autonomous enough to be able to co?create life together and to be willing to support the highest good in each other.

[JadedStar]

The first step is you must be with a partner that can be trusted.

 

If you are not, then you need to break it off.

 

I believe it is near impossible to combat this if you do not feel you are with a trustworthy person to begin with. Better to start over from scratch SINGLE and work on this vs trying to become more secure with a person who is not honest or who does not treat you right.

[Asphyxiatedaedra]

This is why I want to become a psychologist...

 

I have so many similar jealous feelings and co-dependency issues that I want to understand and learn to solve, as well as help other people who are suffering too.

 

I'm so glad I came accross this forum this morning... it's really been opening my eyes to things.

 

[someguy88]

Wow! What a great thread. Kudos to all of you!

 

 

Now let me challenge you: Your concept of what love is and how it should be may be wrong. Your needs may be wrongly rooted in learning or upbringing that needs to be rooted up and corrected. People have different views of what love is - how do you know your view is right?

 

 

I think once you really grasp this concept everything seems to fall in line. For me, I believe that real love is selfless. It's not about trying to win the heart of another, it's loving the heart of another just because you do.

 

I've seen and experienced so much of the "I gotta be with her. I can't go on without her" stuff, but I don't think that attitude is really representative of what real love is because those feelings stem from our selfish nature and are about our needs.

 

I'm 28 years old and only recently have I discovered what I believe to be the truth about what exactly love is, which is the acceptance that what will be, will be. Whether I'm with the woman I love is ultimately irrelevant because I only want her to be happy. This is my first and foremost concern. Upon this realization, all of self-centered feelings dissipated.

 

In place of the thought, "I can't stand to be without her", is "I hope she is happy". In place of the thought, "I can't stand that she's dating another guy", is "I hope she is happy". etc..

[Miss Firecracker]

I wish I could find the perfect cure for these feelings of jealousy. But as of yet, all I can do is take one day at a time. Most of the time I do very well now.

 

I have learned if I falter not to beat myself up for it, just dust myself off and start again.

 

The times I struggle is when my husband is far away from me and doesn't call until very late at night. I felt those pangs of fear today, and I resisted it. And then later I got a call and was able to breathe again.

 

It's getting better. But there were dark days.

[debsea]

Hi, I'll try to make this quick so I don't steal the thread, but I've just stumbled accross this and wondered if its me.

 

I'm in a relationship where we are very different, he's very content on his own and doesn't need to see me. He's pleased if he does but it is usually round at his house he doesn't come round mine. He doesn't socialise but once in a while he will go out with work people, I can never go and he won't come to any of my things.

 

but when I'm with him I really want to be, I enjoy his company and being close to him.

 

but when I can't see him (even though he's 1.8m away) I get really worked up and lonely. I don't see why he wouldn't want to come round and I get hurt that he doesn't want to go out with me.

 

My head understands that that is just his character and he would be like that with anyone, but my heart gets really upset, lonely and feels unloved. I also have to deal with the fact that he will never say he loves me, nor he says will he say it to anyone else.

 

I feel like I'm becoming obsessed with the issues rather than enjoying what we do have.

 

I thought my problem was that I was with the wrong person, but I can't manage to leave him because I want to be with him. But since reading the thread I wonder if I'm co dependant.

 

I have to say that there was no alcoholism etc in my family, it was all very normal, and that I've already had to deal with a husband of 18yrs leaving me.

 

Any advice would be really interesting, because I'm just going round in circles at the moment.

[mezmerist]

Wow, so much of this thread seemed to be describing me! I realize that I must be co-dependent, and it's almost a relief to be able to listen to other people describe feelings that I deal with on a day-to-day basis. I always just thought I was insecure because of how people have treated me in the past, and I have always been self-less to the point that I feel like I am unable to ever ask for what I want because I want to please everyone. I do extra nice things for other people, and basically set myself up for disappointment when I don't get nice things done in return. I'm always so proud of being "perfect" in my relationships, and never finding any fault in what I did because it was always what my boyfriend did wrong to me. Now, I see that some of these actions are probably due to co-dependency, and my need for approval from others. What is interesting is that I did not come from a family of alcoholics. Instead, I came from a very strict Asian family, where we were never exposed to feelings, and never expressed feelings in the open. To this day, I have never told my parents I love them; we just DO things to show we care, like my mother cooking for me or paying for my tuition. I also always had to hide what I was doing with friends, boyfriends, because my parents would not have approved. So on the outside, I was the perfect daughter, but I always felt unfulfilled because I had to hold back on so many of my emotions towards my parents. I still feel that they really have no idea who I am deep down! And I have also learned to be self-less from them, and I think this is why it is so difficult for me to be selfish and not be a doormat sometimes. I would love to be able to overcome this, it drives me crazy to know certain things about myself that are so difficult to change.

[Frangipani]

There's a checklist here so you can see if you are co dependent or not. Might be useful for some :

link removed

[curious11]

This is a really good topic.. Its so old but rings true to a lot of my feelings. Hmm

[jessica911]

i get jealouse, but only to the guy i love.

 

i want to learn how to stop that too, it really sucks to be jealouse, because you will loss the one that you love.

 

i tried to work on it, and thinking that i got him and no other girls will, but doesnt work that way

[crazyuntilnow]

The answer to this feeling of jealousy and codependence I guess lies in being unconditional in our love. But then this is not an easy to bring ourselves to such a state of mind

[crazyuntilnow]

One realization for me after a lot of thinking is : If you do really love her then trust your love and let her be happy and If you do really love yourself a lot then better let go and find love elsewhere and not let yourself go through all the pain

[wcl]

its nice to know, that it all fits, i am like this.

i am a selfless person, i always thought this was a good trait, and it is i suppose, i just need to curb it and save some of it for myself.

i love my ex so much, i wanted to be with her all the time, hold her all the time.

i am quite a shy person, but i would lavish my care attention and love on her without a worry of social awkwardness, she would at times seem cold, she has never told me but i know now she thought i was abit clingy.

i would get annoyed and jealous alot, i was aware of this and tried to let her do her own thing, but the jealousy would be there (never over other men, just of her giving her time to others). worrying thoughts, over analyzing, why hasn't she rang me, why isnt she meeting me this weekend.? is it me? have i done something? does she still like me? is she still upset from that discussion or is she really fine about it like she says?

i love her so much and have realized these traits as reasons for the break up. but to know what it actually is, i can help my self, improve myself in so many ways, stop worrying about every little thing, over thinking it all, and just enjoy my life, let things be, i have no control.

this site i know will be a great help!

[terit_34]

I came here looking for answers to my jealousy problem and after reading about co-dependency and its consequences relating to it including jealousy, I found this post and wow it hit like a nail on the head! I found this post so helpful in realizing my unstable childhood being raised not by one alcoholic but 2. Both my parents were alcoholics, my mother being the worst of the worst! So after reading this older post I was so glad it was still here and I think it should be a "sticky" for all to see.

I tried to email the author of that post to ask for clarification of Step # 5 but I see that person hasn't been on here since that post date. So now I am asking anyone out there who can give me better clarification of that step. Iam not sure how to understand what it is saying. It would be nice to read an example of what it is saying. Can anyone help me?

 

Thanks so much for any help.

[terit_34]

Btw, I want to thank this person for sharing this info with us. Its a real eye-opener!

[italiannmf24]

Jealousy and co-dependency are hard to push through, especially if the relationship you were in was deep and meaningful.

 

This is how I see things...

 

These two emotions are in your head and only in your head. If you didn't keep replaying your ex with another person in your head you can't feel these emotions nor can you get aggrivated over it. In the earlier stages of a break-up it's almost impossible to get these images out of your head and it feels as though they will never disappear. But it takes both time and effort in order to remove these thoughts from your head. After the right amount of NC (No Contact) with your ex, no updates on them, no stories, no figuring what their up too etc. you'll start thinking on your own again. Once the thoughts start coming less and less you need to actively stop your mind from thinking of the worst situations you could be in surrounding your ex. That's the only way it worked for me. After I accepted the worst, I progressively let go, stopped thinking about what the ex had been up to and started re-building my life again. It wasn't easy but I'm in a better place for it.

 

So to answer your question, yes. A person can be "cured" of jealousy and co-dependency.

[terit_34]

Thanks Someguy88, I appreciate your post but what I am looking for is an explaination of Step 5 of "aleeper" post that is in this thread.

Have you read that post?

[Celadon]

This is all really great stuff. What particularly resonated with me was loving yourself (and being loved) for who you ARE, and loving others for who they are. So often we seek to get our self-esteem from others because we don't feel loved for who we are, or we strive to be who we are not, and we know it, deep down. Which only perpetuates the insecurity.

[Guitarguy_82]

Bumping this. This describes me very accurately. After BU 3 months ago and almost 2 months solid NC I am seeing my situation for how it should have been seen. It wasn't all about my ex. Although she did her part in the BU, it really came back to my low self esteem and needing her to "fill" a part of my life that should have been filled by me all along. That's not her fault, and I can't beat myself up about it anymore. I think this is a crucial step in me healing and moving forward.

 

If I ever break NC, it will be with this in mind. I will wish her well and to have a happy life. After I've had more time of course....