Nature vs nurture/ psychology vs genes

When I first became aware of my homosexuality, i desperately tried to fight my urges, but then finally accepted it as being part of who i am, and that i was probably born with it. I did have strong transgendered tendencies at a very early age after all, so i thought that this was the only logical explanation... or so i thought...

When i finally came out to my parents, to my surprise they had a little story to tell me of their own. apparently, before i went to kindergarten, i was a normal healthy little boy. I didn't cross dress, and i didn't have any feminine tendencies and i gladly participated in masculine activities. i did however, have an unusually tight bond with my mother. My dad explained that this was due to the fact that he devoted all his time to my older brother who has down syndrome (he required almost more attention than i did, so my parents split the work load), which left room for me to develop a close relationship with my mother.

And then the day I had to go to kindergarten everything changed. The first day i had to go i refused to leave the car and and i suffered terrible separation anxiety. When the day ended and i finally went home, my parents walked in on me wearing my mothers clothes and shoes and according to my parents i have behaved like a girl ever since. For some reason i identified with the wrong gender. During my early teens i did managed to correct my behaviour driven by my fathers harsh conditioning. he made it very clear that what i was doing was wrong, so i guess i just decided to become a boy, with the occsional cross dressing incident. And then surprise surprise, i found out that i was gay.

So, what i want is an opinion... is it possible that a childhood event could have developed my sexuality? Nature vs nurture... what do you guys think?

People have been trying to figure out what causes homosexuality for a very long time. They haven't got it yet.

IMHO, I think there are numerous reason people come to find themselves attracted to (and fall in love with) people of the same sex. I really don't think there is a single uniform answer.

And who bloody-well cares? You are gay? Good for you. Happiness is where you find it. If it's with another man, so be it. I wish I could find some happiness with SOMEBODY. I sometimes get very bitter about that.

Again, good for you.

still open to debate, but there's mounting evidence that sexual orientation is set before or soon after birth.

the reason is that a certain part of the hypothalamus lights up in an mri scanner when a gay men is shown erotic pictures of men and not of women, and vice versa.

the structures in the hypothalamus are built before birth and are completed soon after.

there was a bbc documentary by John Barrowman on this. also, there have been several papers in medical journals about it.

as far as we know, there's no way to change a person's sexual orientation. several ex-gays and repressed homophobic statesmen and clergymen are regularly caught giving in to their homosexual urges.

I don't think that an event has to do with changing your sexual preference. You may had always had it within you but it was repress or block out (in other words you always had that trait) but it was only a matter of time before it came out.

I think that both nature and nurture CAN influence a persons sexual preference. Either way you like what you like. Finding the source of something feels like it will give us insight and allow us to understand but that is not necessarily true. Regardless of the source, be true to yourself and be happy with the person that you are.

who knows. but really, homosexuality has been around for ages, and in the grand scheme of the world, it's really only in more modern times that we've thought of it as counter-culture or "wrong" in some way. (at leat as far as men go- i know far less about lesbian relationships in the ancient world, but i'd guess they probably existed too!)

i tend to believe that everyone's sexuality falls along a spectrum and that very few people are either 100% gay or straight. with that said, i think culture does ahve a lot to do with it, and i maintain that if having homosexual relationships was more a part of our standard culture, more people would do it. (i was shocked, for example, when my super super conservative bff who is always talking about men, etc, got drunk one night and said she's attracted to men, but would date women if it were socially acceptable... ) hmmm...

i tend to believe that everyone's sexuality falls along a spectrum and that very few people are either 100% gay or straight. with that said, i think culture does ahve a lot to do with it, and i maintain that if having homosexual relationships was more a part of our standard culture, more people would do it. (i was shocked, for example, when my super super conservative bff who is always talking about men, etc, got drunk one night and said she's attracted to men, but would date women if it were socially acceptable... ) hmmm...

" but would date women if it were socially acceptable..."

she's already attracted to women whether or not it's acceptable... it's just that she isn't open about it.

another way of putting it, it's the difference between someone living in the closet or not, not determining sexual attraction.

The cause for heterosexuality is being born with a larger hypothalamus than gay people.

The cause for heterosexuality is being born with a larger hypothalamus than gay people.

The cause of ignorance, however, remains entirely linked with those who listen blindly to everything they see on TV

The cause of ignorance, however, remains entirely linked with those who listen blindly to everything they see on TV

or those who disbelieve everything they don't like on tv

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The cause for heterosexuality is being born with a larger hypothalamus than gay people.

i've actually read that somewhere too. But what i want to know is whether gender identification has anything to do with it? Do all gay guys feel that apart of them is female? i certainly do... what abut you guys?

or those who disbelieve everything they don't like on tv

 

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If you read the report, which I would like to add is simply one study, you'll see they don't contend that it *makes* someone gay (as was reported on the TV over here)... but that it is possibly a feature of at least a variety of people who identify as gay.

It's not being proclaimed as a CAUSE of homosexuality, but a possible TRAIT of homosexuality, which is what the OP was requesting.

If you read the report, which I would like to add is simply one study, you'll see they don't contend that it *makes* someone gay (as was reported on the TV over here)... but that it is possibly a feature of at least a variety of people who identify as gay.

 

It's not being proclaimed as a CAUSE of homosexuality, but a possible TRAIT of homosexuality, which is what the OP was requesting.

If you read a few sentences beyond the abstract, you will see it has been referenced many times over by similar studies. So it's not just *one* report.

I do agree it is not the cause - its a link in the chain: a certain hormone composition in the womb--->smaller hypothalamus ------>gay.

@jon, here's the abstract to another report:

Transsexuality is an individual's unshakable conviction of belonging to the opposite sex, resulting in a request for sex-reassignment surgery. We have shown previously that the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) is female in size and neuron number in male-to-female transsexual people. In the present study we investigated the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus, which is composed of two subnuclei, namely interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH) 3 and 4. Post-mortem brain material was used from 42 subjects: 14 control males, 11 control females, 11 male-to-female transsexual people, 1 female-to-male transsexual subject and 5 non-transsexual subjects who were castrated because of prostate cancer. To identify and delineate the nuclei and determine their volume and shape we used three different stainings throughout the nuclei in every 15th section, i.e. thionin, neuropeptide Y and synaptophysin, using an image analysis system. The most pronounced differences were found in the INAH3 subnucleus. Its volume in thionin sections was 1.9 times larger in control males than in females (P 0.117) and females (volume P > 0.245 and number of neurons P > 0.341). There was no difference in INAH3 between pre-and post-menopausal women, either in the volume (P > 0.84) or in the number of neurons (P

I personally feel no female side in me, but that depends how you define female I suppose...i do tend to be crap at map reading and matching clothes colours, but I'm good at manipulating shapes and figures in my head, so I suppose generalisations can't apply to the individual...

the important thing is that you learn to know all the sides that make up you and you feel good about them

*sigh* I've read the whole report, and I've read some of the others. It's referenced in other reports but it hasn't been repeated. Science is based on peer review, and while it is very interesting all it really does is prove how little we know about human sexuality.

I get very frustraited when people draw blanket conclusions, such as "gay === smaller hypothalamus". A casual relationship means potentially very little for CAUSE. Also, the study notes that it may only cover a percentage of homosexuals - and not all homosexuals.

The report is at PAINS to state: "suggests that sexual orientation has a biological substrate". All that means (particulary the last two words), is that seuxal orientation appears to have a biological construct in the brain. This does not mean that the person is necesarily born this way, that biological construct may have developed as a result of reinforced homosexual behavior and/or thoughts.

As with all scientific studies... we need more research. Human sexuality is an extremely complex area of psychology, and there will likely be several areas in which people develop their sexual orientation, some of them being nature and possibly some being nurture.

You are quite right But it is also true that the hypothalamus is built before birth isn't it? So there's no mechanism to reinforce anything in it?

You are quite right But it is also true that the hypothalamus is built before birth isn't it? So there's no mechanism to reinforce anything in it?

Well I think so, but i think it was the amount of cells inside it that they were measuring. Cell density or something. It's quite an old study (1991) and since that time it's not been accepted as mainstream thinking, so I have never really put much stock in it.

Are we born this way? I don't know. And I get suspicious of anyone who says definatively either way that we are or we are not. Each sexual journey is very much an individual experience that may or may not be the product of nature or nurture.

Hey man,

I understand your struggle and desire to know whether it is nature or nurture.

I agree with icemoto, sexuality is very complex and is a mixture of both nature and nurture. As far as the study regarding the hypothalumus region,

studies must be able to be replicated in order to be considered scientific facts. If I'm not mistaken some of the gay identified males in that study had normal sized hypothalumus regions and some of the heterosexually identified men had smaller ones. If I remember correctly although that region is formed before birth other factors and life experience can actually change our brain chemistry and make up.

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This article discusses the nature nurture debate. The website that it comes from tends to definitely lean fully towards the nurture side of the debate.

However, they are very professional and look at things from multiple angles.

It's worth checking out. There is a portion of this article that specifically speaks about the hypothalumus study under the heading entitled critique of past research.

I feel that my particular bisexual/homosexual desires definitely had a lot of nurture elements. I can't speak for everyone, but I totally believe that in my case certain environmental factors were strong contributors.

1. Absense of male role models:

I had no grandfathers, brothers, cousins, uncles (absent and abusive),

father (distant and somewhat sexual with me).

2. Over abundance of females one of which (my mother) unintentionally

caused me to become like her partner/companion/confidante (causing me

to feel somewhat smothered) and often spoke negatively about men

telling me that they were animals, cowards, pigs, weak, etc...(which

caused me to not want to be one)

Loads of other stuff as well...I wanted to learn to be a man but decided at a young age that I couldn't be even though I wanted to be and could/can be. The truth is that had I had what I needed I feel that in my personal case I would have had a much stronger masculine identification and less desire to be with men (in my case, I'm not speaking for everyone).

I can't speak for your case but from what you have said it would seem like:

1. You may have felt rejected by your father (the 1st male you are

introduced to in this world).

2. Since you were so close to your mom after having gone to school and

having had seperation anxiety, having come home and dressing up like

your mother (when that was not a previous action or desire) may have

represented your desire to be close to her, because your mother was your

safe place.

The resulting gender noncomformity and lack of fatherly guidance may have strengthened an internal sense of not belonging to the world of men which in turn may (not saying anything definitive,may) have caused you to desire men. You mentioned him being somewhat harsh with you and that could have caused you to feel hurt and rejected as well concerning your manhood.

Those are just some observations as well as my personal experience.

Once again I cannot say I have all the answers, because I don't.

Sexuality is very complex as icemoto said and I am only speaking from what I have experienced with myself and the little pieces of info that you have shared.

Best of wishes to you on you life journey man,

No matter what you feel or desire, keep your head high and value yourself.

I am completely and utterly terrified of spiders. I've jumped out of planes, I've been in the military, I've climbed mountains. But I am absolutely petrified of spiders.

Now, I'm quite sure one could go back in my history and decode why I am scared of spiders. For example, I was bitten by one when I was young in bed, and over the years I have gotten progressively more scared of them. We're told there are some biological/evolutionary elements in a fear of spiders... but it is highly likely that my fear of spiders is a very personal experience, in other words - quite a different mechanism for development than anyone else.

I think its possible to look back in someone's past and draw conclusions, but so far we really can't draw any wide conclusions and to do so is potentially offensive. For example, I have an abundance of male role models in my life, plenty in fact.

For me, I reached a point where I wasn't really to concerned where "I" came from, because I am who I am. I am a product of both the situation I grew up in and the body I was born into. There is also very little "science" involved in deducing these facts from my past, meaning that no real conclusions can be drawn. I think it will be many, many years before we truly begin to understand the true scope of human sexuality.

"but it is highly likely that my fear of spiders is a very personal experience, in other words - quite a different mechanism for development than anyone else.

I think its possible to look back in someone's past and draw conclusions, but so far we really can't draw any wide conclusions and to do so is potentially offensive. For example, I have an abundance of male role models in my life, plenty in fact."

Not trying to offend anyone..Thats precisely why I continued to say that I can only speak for myself and also that my observations were possibilities but not definitive answers. I do understand that there are people who have homosexual desires who have not been sexually abused and who did have male role models. How do we respond to that? I'm not sure. Like we've said sexuality is complex. I definitely do not desire to offend anyone, so if I did, I apologize.

anonimo

i look at it like this:

when i was born, the world gave me a hot dog to eat.

they said, because most girls like to eat hot dogs, we

assume you like them to and will teach you that.

now dont get me wrong, hot dogs are good, and

i have nothing against them, but one day..

i saw a girl talking about how she was having fish.

i thought, "i've heard of girls who eat fish, but never met one!"

wow, thats interesting.... I wonder ....

well the oppourtunity eventually came up and i tried it.

now i'm like YEAH...

a little talapia, some tuna, mabey some cat fish

If i was the type of person to "snack" i would probably

partake in a hot dog every once in a while,

but i'm a meal type of girl, and i'm not waisting my meal

on a hot dog

Not trying to offend anyone.

Oh sorry mate, I wasn't meaning to suggest your post was meant that way, I was meaning to support what you were saying about your's being a personal journey - and how we can look back and (if we want) draw our own conclusions if they help us. I guess I got carried away and didn't really mention that in my post!

To icemoto:

It's all good bruh.......

I think that sexuality is more nature than nurture.

I say this because I am 100% sure I remember being affected by the male form rather than the female long before I was even aware of the concept of sexuality/sex etc. i.e from a very young age. I have one funny memory that I won't share which confirms this lol!

Despite this and through growing up I had my "straight" faze where I was determined to not be gay and thought I'd be someone who always lived a "lie". By the time I was 19 this had pretty much been put to rest and I came out and have been gay since.

I think the make up of gay and straight people may be different. Someone has already mentioned the hypothalamus but with my unscientific thoughts I figured that maybe gay guys have less testosterone in their bodies than their male counterparts or maybe some more female traits in their makeup.

This may explain why some guys are very much more feminine than others and act in a "gay" way.

Not all gay guys are feminine though or have that as a part of them. I certainly don't. I'm basically like any other regular guy but am gay so it's not something that everyone shares.

I know gay people with strong mothers and I know gay guys who had strong fathers growing up and it seems to have made no difference either way.

I once had a conversation with a guy who suggested to me that people were gay for fashionable reasons as if it didn't really exist. It riled me to no end needless to say!

I personally believe the nurture theory. When I was growing up all the love and affection I ever received was from women and I believe that I learned to associate females with positive feelings and males with negative ones. I really believe that I was conditioned into my sexuality through my experiences and associations. I'm not saying that I'm right, it's just what I believe.

Honestly, I don't' really feel like I was born this way. But I don't feel like this is something that developed over time due to environmental factors. Sometimes I think it was my open-mindedness that got me here. I was open-minded to trying things out with a woman. I really enjoyed it, but still identified as straight for a long time.